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cal04

(41,505 posts)
Sat Jan 4, 2014, 05:40 PM Jan 2014

The NSA refuses to deny spying on members of Congress

Source: Washington Post

"Has the NSA spied, or is the NSA currently spying, on members of Congress or other elected officials?"

That's the question Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) put to the National Security Agency's chief in a bluntly worded letter Friday. It seems, however, that the agency cannot categorically say no.

(snip)
"Members of Congress have the same privacy protections as all U.S. persons," the spokesman said. "We are reviewing Sen. Sanders’s letter now, and we will continue to work to ensure that all members of Congress, including Sen. Sanders, have information about NSA’s mission, authorities, and programs to fully inform the discharge of their duties.”

The answer is telling. We already know that the NSA collects records on virtually every phone call made in the United States. That program was renewed for the 36th time on Friday. If members of Congress are treated no differently than other Americans, then the NSA likely keeps tabs on every call they make as well.


Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/01/04/the-nsa-refuses-to-deny-spying-on-members-of-congress/



(snip)
The statement read: “NSA’s authorities to collect signals intelligence data include procedures that protect the privacy of US persons. Such protections are built into and cut across the entire process. Members of Congress have the same privacy protections as all US persons. NSA is fully committed to transparency with Congress. Our interaction with Congress has been extensive both before and since the media disclosures began last June.

“We are reviewing Senator Sanders’s letter now, and we will continue to work to ensure that all members of Congress, including Senator Sanders, have information about NSA’s mission, authorities, and programs to fully inform the discharge of their duties.”

Soon after Sanders' letter was published, the director of national intelligence, James Clapper, announced that the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance (Fisa) Court, the body which exists to provide government oversight of NSA surveillance activities, had renewed the domestic phone records collection order for another 90 days.

On Saturday, the New York Times published a letter from Robert Litt, in which the general counsel for the Office of National Intelligence denied allegations that Clapper lied to Congress in March, when questioned about NSA domestic surveillance.



From Sen. Sanders Facebook page
https://www.facebook.com/senatorsanders
Must Read: NSA statement does not deny 'spying' on members of Congress - Spencer Ackerman and Martin Pengelly, The Guardian:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/04/nsa-spying-bernie-sanders-members-congress
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/04/clapper-lie-congress-nsa-national-intelligence-counsel
52 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The NSA refuses to deny spying on members of Congress (Original Post) cal04 Jan 2014 OP
if everyone is a potential terrorist, including most people with little interest in politics... mike_c Jan 2014 #1
Start with the entire membership of the GOP, eom DonViejo Jan 2014 #2
Congress Is Exempt billhicks76 Jan 2014 #8
bill, NSA is above the law. saidsimplesimon Jan 2014 #50
if they are spying on everyday citizens, the NSA is probably even spying on itself. olddad56 Jan 2014 #3
Uh what? billhicks76 Jan 2014 #9
I'd say the coup of 911 was compete before the perpetrators left office. olddad56 Jan 2014 #11
Indeed! The US is now a police state ... onwardsand upwards Jan 2014 #25
It would not matter the answer they would give there would be hell raising anyway so Thinkingabout Jan 2014 #4
To be honest that kinda question is loaded to fail almost. cstanleytech Jan 2014 #5
They can qualify the response and limit it to the relatively recent past. merrily Jan 2014 #35
Or the senator could rephrase the question and ask them if they have cstanleytech Jan 2014 #43
Yes, we have been spying on you Kelvin Mace Jan 2014 #6
Rinse & Repeat! Titonwan Jan 2014 #13
The drip, drip, drip drives the apologists crazy. It is the opposite of the Friday night news dump. GoneFishin Jan 2014 #28
I know, huh! Titonwan Jan 2014 #40
Like outdated by 20 yrs PatrynXX Jan 2014 #7
So, you're ok with this? Titonwan Jan 2014 #41
If they are hoovering up all phone records, then they are spying on everyone. Thor_MN Jan 2014 #10
Glad to hear they are equal opportunity snoops. dixiegrrrrl Jan 2014 #17
Difference being, Congress probably knew about the spying. merrily Jan 2014 #36
Shocked! Not! blackspade Jan 2014 #12
Well, hey, it's just metadata, I'm sure... klook Jan 2014 #14
"We are reviewing Sen. Sanders’s letter now"... how much time does that take?? arcane1 Jan 2014 #15
They're trying to find the least untruthful answer. nt bananas Jan 2014 #16
BINGO!111!!! We have a winnar! RC Jan 2014 #18
Ya probably but like I pointed out before its a loaded question because while they cstanleytech Jan 2014 #20
kudos. merrily Jan 2014 #38
The NSA knew what was in the letter.., Purrfessor Jan 2014 #22
uhhuh Solly Mack Jan 2014 #19
I always thought Epiphany4z Jan 2014 #21
I thought both Gore and Kerry threw in the towels way prematurely. nt GoneFishin Jan 2014 #29
Can we all at least agree that anyone defending the NSA spying on Congress Maedhros Jan 2014 #23
I agree.. sendero Jan 2014 #39
But would even they come out and post that they APPROVE of spying on Congress? Maedhros Jan 2014 #48
Snowden document shows Canada set up spy posts for NSA mitty14u2 Jan 2014 #24
No matter how society changes at the bottom or in the middle we are apparently being watched Lint Head Jan 2014 #26
Good analogy. And the Hoover files may help to squash ants that won't stay in line. nt GoneFishin Jan 2014 #30
Probably the reason why Clapper is able to get away with lying to Congress neverforget Jan 2014 #27
Precisely debunkthis Jan 2014 #34
Congress needs to do something if the NSA is christx30 Jan 2014 #31
not to hijack the thred...but backwoodsbob Jan 2014 #46
The coupon is really old. [n/t] Maedhros Jan 2014 #49
Congress tries anything and you wouldn't believe the adultery, porn, bestially scandals on the RC Jan 2014 #51
Agreed. christx30 Jan 2014 #52
Of course the NSA is spying on our elected officials debunkthis Jan 2014 #32
The ''non-denial denial'' seeks to achieve two main goals: DeSwiss Jan 2014 #33
Yep and that first sentence in your snip quote: KoKo Jan 2014 #37
I agree that members of Congress, the Judiciary and Executive Branches Swede Atlanta Jan 2014 #42
Because if they did deny it, the next day something would be published to show they lied. bemildred Jan 2014 #44
bumping for wellstone..nt Jesus Malverde Jan 2014 #45
Looks like Sanders is not pleased... Indi Guy Jan 2014 #47

mike_c

(36,270 posts)
1. if everyone is a potential terrorist, including most people with little interest in politics...
Sat Jan 4, 2014, 05:45 PM
Jan 2014

...then presumably politicians, with an expressed active interest in partisan political struggles, should be among the first suspects.

 

billhicks76

(5,082 posts)
8. Congress Is Exempt
Sat Jan 4, 2014, 06:52 PM
Jan 2014

I believe you cannot open the mail of members of Congress even in special circumstances.

saidsimplesimon

(7,888 posts)
50. bill, NSA is above the law.
Sun Jan 5, 2014, 06:57 PM
Jan 2014

Or so the Pentagon, CIA and the Obama legal team tell US.

Don't be so naive, the NSA had Hoover as their role model.

olddad56

(5,732 posts)
3. if they are spying on everyday citizens, the NSA is probably even spying on itself.
Sat Jan 4, 2014, 05:48 PM
Jan 2014

It isn't the National Security Administration, it is the National Spying Administration. That is their job, that is what they do.

 

billhicks76

(5,082 posts)
9. Uh what?
Sat Jan 4, 2014, 06:57 PM
Jan 2014

Corporations and government agencies spy on themselves for security reasons. No one is supposed to be able to spy on the President or members of Congress by law. If they do then there is ABSOLUTELY no democracy left and the coup of 911 is almost compete.

olddad56

(5,732 posts)
11. I'd say the coup of 911 was compete before the perpetrators left office.
Sat Jan 4, 2014, 07:21 PM
Jan 2014

all that is left to unfold is our awareness.

 

onwardsand upwards

(276 posts)
25. Indeed! The US is now a police state ...
Sat Jan 4, 2014, 09:51 PM
Jan 2014

... raining murder from the skies ... and ...

... it just sits there, WATCHING!


Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
4. It would not matter the answer they would give there would be hell raising anyway so
Sat Jan 4, 2014, 05:51 PM
Jan 2014

It is best to just keep on going.

cstanleytech

(26,248 posts)
5. To be honest that kinda question is loaded to fail almost.
Sat Jan 4, 2014, 06:16 PM
Jan 2014

After all if you think about it the odds are that the NSA has at some time probably listened in on someone in congress or the senate since the agency was formed so they probably cannot say its never happened.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
35. They can qualify the response and limit it to the relatively recent past.
Sun Jan 5, 2014, 09:55 AM
Jan 2014

No one today is talking about NSA surveillance in 1952.

cstanleytech

(26,248 posts)
43. Or the senator could rephrase the question and ask them if they have
Sun Jan 5, 2014, 11:45 AM
Jan 2014

specifically targeted and listened in on any senators and or members of congress telephone calls while they were in office within the past 20 years.

 

Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)
6. Yes, we have been spying on you
Sat Jan 4, 2014, 06:23 PM
Jan 2014

and now we are busy burning all the records and threatening all the witnesses.

Again, why do people argue with me when I tell them we are a de facto police state?

My guess is they will keep weaseling, then deny it categorically, then Snowden will release the surveillance memos proving they did. Then certain factions here will call him a traitor and demand his arrest and imprisonment.

Titonwan

(785 posts)
13. Rinse & Repeat!
Sat Jan 4, 2014, 07:31 PM
Jan 2014

And then the next time it happens when they're caught red handed- they'll lie again, fake outrage and continue biznet az usual.
That's why I think the slow release* of Snowdens revelations is pure genius! Think about it- with a culture with the attention span of a mosquito- what better way to keep LIV Amerikans focused and forced to have a debate about this!
If they kill Ed tomorrow, there's no way to put the Genie back in the bottle now!
Pure Genius. Drip, drip, drip!

*Although the real reason for doling out these revelations, incrementally, is to carefully vet it so no one gets hurt. You can thank Laura Poitras and Glenn Greenwald for that.

GoneFishin

(5,217 posts)
28. The drip, drip, drip drives the apologists crazy. It is the opposite of the Friday night news dump.
Sat Jan 4, 2014, 10:30 PM
Jan 2014

Dumping a mountain of government scandal news on Friday night usually means it's passe by Monday.

But drip, drip, drip keeps it in the public eye. And, it seems the later drips often put the lie to the earlier excuses and cover stories.

Titonwan

(785 posts)
40. I know, huh!
Sun Jan 5, 2014, 11:20 AM
Jan 2014

I bet the vitriol in the intelligence community and Washington insiders is palpable. If I had a nickel for every bitter invective spit out right now over Snowden (and Greenwald, Poitras et alia)- I'd be a gazzillionaire! Ha ha.

PatrynXX

(5,668 posts)
7. Like outdated by 20 yrs
Sat Jan 4, 2014, 06:48 PM
Jan 2014

NSA was basically the group nobody talks about because they know everything. 15 yrs ago this would hardly be shocking let alone now.

Titonwan

(785 posts)
41. So, you're ok with this?
Sun Jan 5, 2014, 11:22 AM
Jan 2014

Because if you do, you sound like you just got off a boat from East Berlin in the 50's.

 

Thor_MN

(11,843 posts)
10. If they are hoovering up all phone records, then they are spying on everyone.
Sat Jan 4, 2014, 07:14 PM
Jan 2014

They can't deny spying on Congress as they are spying on everyone.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
36. Difference being, Congress probably knew about the spying.
Sun Jan 5, 2014, 09:57 AM
Jan 2014

Certainly the questions Harkin asked during hearings about mass surveillance by the millions was not a lucky guess.

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
12. Shocked! Not!
Sat Jan 4, 2014, 07:28 PM
Jan 2014

Of course the NSA has Congress under surveillance.

What I want to see is the specific warrants for each member spied on.
That would be interesting.
I'm curious what torturing of the Constitution they came up for Congress.
Kind of like the for the rest of us I suspect.

Public accountability is the only way for the Government to run.

klook

(12,152 posts)
14. Well, hey, it's just metadata, I'm sure...
Sat Jan 4, 2014, 07:32 PM
Jan 2014

so why would members of Congress get worked up about it?

I mean, no Senators or Congressional reps could possibly have anything to hide, right? So -- like the rest of law-abiding citizens -- they should just submit to constant surveillance.


http://nsa.gov1.info/utah-data-center/

 

arcane1

(38,613 posts)
15. "We are reviewing Sen. Sanders’s letter now"... how much time does that take??
Sat Jan 4, 2014, 07:34 PM
Jan 2014

It's not like he wrote it in Shakespearean English and they need to consult a dictionary

cstanleytech

(26,248 posts)
20. Ya probably but like I pointed out before its a loaded question because while they
Sat Jan 4, 2014, 08:10 PM
Jan 2014

may or may not have done anything recently (I couldnt say for sure since I'm not privy to such information) in regards to recording and or spying on someone in congress the odds are they have done at some time in the past so they probably cant say "No, we never have done so." without being roasted over the coals for it even though it might have been 10 - 20 or even 30 years ago.

Epiphany4z

(2,234 posts)
21. I always thought
Sat Jan 4, 2014, 08:17 PM
Jan 2014

GWB and the repubs always seemed a step ahead of Kerry. It just seemed the timing on some things was to good...I suppose we will never know.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
23. Can we all at least agree that anyone defending the NSA spying on Congress
Sat Jan 4, 2014, 08:40 PM
Jan 2014

is a craven, boot-licking anti-democratic authoritarian toady?

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
48. But would even they come out and post that they APPROVE of spying on Congress?
Sun Jan 5, 2014, 04:57 PM
Jan 2014

We can infer that they would, since they seem to approve of the President executing citizens as Enemies of the State without due process. If one accepts that, then what wouldn't one accept?

mitty14u2

(1,015 posts)
24. Snowden document shows Canada set up spy posts for NSA
Sat Jan 4, 2014, 09:25 PM
Jan 2014

Snowden document shows Canada set up spy posts for NSA


A top secret document retrieved by American whistleblower Edward Snowden reveals Canada has set up covert spying posts around the world and conducted espionage against trading partners at the request of the U.S. National Security Agency.

The leaked NSA document being reported exclusively by CBC News reveals Canada is involved with the huge American intelligence agency in clandestine surveillance activities in “approximately 20 high-priority countries."
Much of the document contains hyper-sensitive operational details which CBC News has chosen not to make public.

Read a redacted version of the lastet Snowden NSA doc
New Snowden docs show U.S. spied during G20 in Toronto
NSA document raises questions about Canada in G8 spying
Read Snowden NSA document on G8, G20 surveillance
Inside Canada's top-secret billion-dollar spy palace

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/snowden-document-shows-canada-set-up-spy-posts-for-nsa-1.2456886

Bush went to Canada on his first trip after leaving office, It's a Go, Spy until your hearts content, Isn’t that special.

Lint Head

(15,064 posts)
26. No matter how society changes at the bottom or in the middle we are apparently being watched
Sat Jan 4, 2014, 10:05 PM
Jan 2014

from the top to make sure we do not make real waves. I believe we do not have a true democracy or republic any longer. A virtual coup has taken place.

The way ants are spied on with a magnifying glass while going along their merry way, until they intrude on a nice picnic lunch. Then they are poisoned or stomped.

christx30

(6,241 posts)
31. Congress needs to do something if the NSA is
Sat Jan 4, 2014, 11:10 PM
Jan 2014

breaking the laws against them.. "Oh, you won't say if you are spying on us? Then we'll have to assume you will and sanction you this year. I have the NSA's budget request for next year. How about we give you... $35 and a two for one coupon at Sizzler next year. How does that sound?"

 

backwoodsbob

(6,001 posts)
46. not to hijack the thred...but
Sun Jan 5, 2014, 03:27 PM
Jan 2014

the Sizzler?I haven't seen a Western Sizzler in many years...do they still exist?

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
51. Congress tries anything and you wouldn't believe the adultery, porn, bestially scandals on the
Sun Jan 5, 2014, 10:03 PM
Jan 2014
front page of every home town newspaper in the nation. Facts and truth wouldn't have much to do with it, either.

christx30

(6,241 posts)
52. Agreed.
Sun Jan 5, 2014, 10:22 PM
Jan 2014

Another reason why the NSA is dangerous to democracy. And another reason why I question why anyone could possibly defend it. Unless they are being paid to do it.

 

debunkthis

(99 posts)
32. Of course the NSA is spying on our elected officials
Sun Jan 5, 2014, 12:15 AM
Jan 2014

What better way to ensure that politicians implement the desired policies than to dig up enough dirt on those in office to guarantee cooperation?

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
33. The ''non-denial denial'' seeks to achieve two main goals:
Sun Jan 5, 2014, 12:26 AM
Jan 2014
- To assure that they have received your question, and then to explain why asking it is irrelevant.

It's not an answer per se, more ''answer-like.'' It's a bonus if you can do all that, and also sound slightly intimidating without trying to.

"Members of Congress have the same privacy protections as all U.S. persons," the spokesman said. "We are reviewing Sen. Sanders’s letter now, and we will continue to work to ensure that all members of Congress, including Sen. Sanders, have information about NSA’s mission, authorities, and programs to fully inform the discharge of their duties.”

K&R

"Whatever the Party holds to be the truth, is truth. It is impossible to see reality except by looking through the eyes of the Party.” ~George Orwell, 1984

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
37. Yep and that first sentence in your snip quote:
Sun Jan 5, 2014, 09:58 AM
Jan 2014


"Members of Congress have the same privacy protections as all U.S. persons,"

Since we know that US persons have no privacy due to Snowden revelations then why should "member of congress" expect any?

When we think about who might be calling members of congress (ordinary citizens along with those seeking special favors) who are being monitored it's only logical that the congress critter's phone conversations are being swept up in the data collection. But, as others have said here, it's likely the Reps have been under surveillance for a long while. We know Hoover's FBI was doing it, why would it have been stopped given the expanded powers of the NSA?
 

Swede Atlanta

(3,596 posts)
42. I agree that members of Congress, the Judiciary and Executive Branches
Sun Jan 5, 2014, 11:26 AM
Jan 2014

of government have no greater rights to privacy than "ordinary" citizens, that is exactly the point.

Security is not something you get by giving up Constitutional protections against unlawful searches and seizures. Security is when you live in a society that uses reasonable means to thwart those who would do us ill but does so in a manner consistent with our heritage and Constitution.

But with respect to members of Congress, the Executive branch and the Judiciary, the fact we know NSA spies on everyone, including members of the government, is especially frightening.

The NSA is a subdivision of the Department of Defense that reports to a civilian Secretary of Defense that reports to the President. That means that the NSA reports to a politician. That means the NSA can easily be manipulated for political purposes.

So while it has always been the case that the political party that controls Congress and/or the Executive has the opportunity to exploit powers to achieve political ends, the NSA ratchets things up and makes the potential exploitation that much more likely.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
44. Because if they did deny it, the next day something would be published to show they lied.
Sun Jan 5, 2014, 11:57 AM
Jan 2014

Must be spooky.

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