Jahi McMath: 13-year-old brain-dead Oakland girl moved by family from hospital

[alp227]

Source: Contra Costa Times

OAKLAND -- Jahi McMath was quickly and quietly moved from Children's Hospital of Oakland Sunday evening, the hospital confirmed.

The move came hours after the her family's attorney said they would be moving her to a treatment facility before a Tuesday deadline "come hell or high water" before Tuesday's 5 p.m. deadline for the hospital to turn off her ventilator.

David Durand, chief of pediatrics at the hospital, sent a news release just after 8:30 p.m. confirming she was moved.

"A short while ago, the body of JahiMcMath was released by Children's Hospital & Research Center Oakland to the coroner," he wrote. "The coroner has released her body to the custody of her mother, Latasha Winkfield, as per court order, for a destination unknown.

Read more: http://www.contracostatimes.com/news/ci_24850099/jahi-mcmath-attorney-tells-tv-station-child-will

[rocktivity]

1. Treatment? Of a certified corpse?

Last edited Thu Feb 24, 2022, 01:50 PM - Edit history (1)

The Alameda County coroner's office issued a death certificate for the girl Friday but said the document is incomplete because no cause of death has been determined pending an autopsy. "They may have issued one but we don't have it. We don't think she's dead," (family lawyer Christopher) Dolan said. "We got all the necessary legal paperwork in order to get Jahi out of there."

Dolan wouldn't specify where the girl was taken but he said "they are going to care for her, respect her and love her..." Jahi's family does not plan to disclose any more about their plans for her continued care until she is resettled, her uncle, Omari Sealey, told reporters on Friday.

...David Durand, the hospital's Chief of Pediatrics, said the girl was released to the coroner. The coroner then released her into the custody of her mother, Nailah Winkfield, as per court order...

Well, she can't go to the New Beginnings in-patient facility in New York because it doesn't exist. Any facility or doctor who inserts life-support tubes into a certified corpse is risking getting into trouble with their state medical board. And I suspect that Jahi's corpse will be "loved and respected" only as long as the $47,000 her family collected in donations exists.


rocktivity

[davidpdx]

14. The lawyer is a certified ambulance chaser in my opinion and needs to be disbarred

The family is going to have to put out more information to keep the donations coming in. That is all part of the scheme. I wish someone would leak the death certificate.

[Scairp]

24. Christopher Dolan

I've heard his name before but I cannot remember where. Anybody? And I agree, he's a vampire.

[cosmicone]

17. We'll know soon enough

when the lawyer files a complaint and what he argues as damages.

Death = 500K-1Mil max
Ventilator for 10 years = $40 million

I always suspected the lawyer and family were motivated by greed. In their minds, "Jahi is gone anyway, let's make the most of the lawsuit by engaging in the charade."

[TBF]

19. Sadly this is my take as well -

so very sad for this young girl. And now it has become a circus ...

[The Stranger]

31. Complete bullshit.

If she's certified dead, then there can be no damages award for treatment.

This is about the family's inability to accept her death.

Why in the fuck is everyone always in a hurry to attack the lawyer trying to carry out the family's wishes?

[cosmicone]

83. Nothing stops any lawyer

from filing a suit and hoping for a settlement regardless of the merits of the case.

[The Stranger]

97. Yeah, there are lots of things that stop lawyers from filing suits.

Turn off the idiot box and the media attack on lawyers and, instead, talk to a few of them.

[Yo_Mama]

57. Still the same BS - you can't keep a brain dead corpse alive on a ventilator for long

The world record was 63 days, but that was a dead person with a live fetus inside and they were doing the feeding tube/enzyme regulation and all the rest of it. Jahi wasn't even receiving the normal stuff they do to maintain organ function for a couple of days for organ donations from a brain-dead cadaver.

You keep posting a factual lie about this and it is libelous to the family and I question your motivation. It is also, should one accept your premise, a claim that the hospital and the doctors who have certified the girl's death were involved in a criminal conspiracy, so I don't think you are helping anyone.

BRAIN DEAD PEOPLE CANNOT BE KEPT ALIVE FOR VERY LONG ON A VENTILATOR EVEN WITH ALL OTHER LIFE SUPPORT MECHANISMS. That's because they are indeed dead. That's why brain death is death - it is irreversible.

The only way that she could be on a ventilator for 10 years would be if the family were right and she was NOT brain dead, which would raise another host of bioethics issues.

Before I posted links to medical papers on this issue. Now I will post a link to an article which explains this in layman's terms:
http://www.timesheraldonline.com/news/ci_24859534/family-brain-dead-teens-body-may-be-too?source=most_viewed

[cosmicone]

58. I'm a board certified neurologist

and I know how brain death works.

Your intertubes gained knowledge will always come up short.

We actually keep tissue cultures alive for decades and a corpse on a ventilator can go on with parenteral nutrition for months during which time the family expects to settle the lawsuit and claim $4 million a year in specials x a 10 year life expectancy.

Read some of the other posts in this thread and you'll see that I am not the only one making this argument.

[warrant46]

59. It's like winning the lottery without buying a ticket

Who will keep paying for this science experiment ?

[kiranon]

67. It is my understanding her body is already decomposing.

Without an autopsy cause of death cannot be determined. No settlement of lawsuit until cause of death is determined. By waiting so long for the autopsy, the results may be skewed and the parents may have decreased the value of any settlement amount. It is not clear what caused Jahi's death and the hospital may not be at fault. Gruesome as it sounds - time will tell.

[cosmicone]

84. Not having a credible autopsy works both ways.

It deprives the family of the best evidence for malpractice. However, more importantly, it deprives the defendants of the very same best evidence to defend themselves.

There are a lot of percipient witnesses like a gazillion family members who were paraded in and out of Jahi's post-op recovery against medical advice. There are also nurses who may have been negligent in attending to the hemorrhage. If the hemorrhage is due to a genetic bleeding disorder that the family knew Jahi had but concealed from the doctors, it would be very difficult for the doctors to prove in the absence of an autopsy.

[catbyte]

102. You said that we can keep tissue cultures alive, but how about something as complex

as an entire human body? I read a court affadivit yesterday stating that Jahi's intestinnes are decomposing & that her intestinal walls are sloughing off. How long can they continue this? It's beyond sad.

[cosmicone]

103. I can't tell because I have never examined her

but if the circulation and oxygenation are adequate and hydration, IV nutrition and electrolyte balance are maintained, the brain-dead body can be kept alive for months to years.

[LiberalElite]

66. yes but -

I've read that the family may have some culpability in that they allegedly ignored post-op instructions to keep the girl quiet, instead allowing her to speak with various relatives. This may have caused the bleeding. Do you think this is a possibility?

[cosmicone]

82. Yes, of course.

They also conveniently forgot to inform the doctors of a family history of bleeding disorders.

However, that wouldn't stop the lawyer from filing a suit.

[LiberalElite]

92. I can't wait -

for the lawsuit. All will be revealed.

[Scairp]

27. I wonder if they took her home?

No reputable institution would accept her, not with so many neurologists and the medical evidence proving that she is brain dead. I'm betting that money will keep the girl's body on the vent with nursing care for about two weeks and then they will announce she passed in her sleep, or something. This is too morbid.

[yeoman6987]

89. There comes a time

There comes a time that the parents need to be talked to by some ADULT and not appeasers. I think possibly showing them the bill that they will have to pay because of this. I know money should not matter but it could be a wake up call. Gosh I even sound harsh but SOMETHING needs to be done to wake these parents up. It is very frustrating that they are making their little girl go through this. Sure she may be a corpse but it still seems horrible to do.

[SoapBox]

2. That lawyer is a real creep.

I've heard him on the radio a couple of times...what a freak.

[The Stranger]

32. The lawyer bashing is really sickening.

The lawyer isn't doing anything but carrying out the directives of his client.

[Milwaukee Prog]

3. Someone needs to make Jahi a ward of the state.

The parents are NOT of sound mind in the care of the child who is truly suffering because of their selfishness. If I was a judge, I 'd give them an ultimatum. Either they voluntarily remove the feeding tube and shut the ventilator down and give Jahi her peace and dignity, for which the court can grant the parents grief counseling and treatment at no cost, or the court will take custody of Jahi away from the parents and they will have the tubes and support removed, for which then the court will ORDER the parents grief counseling and psychiatric treatment, and they will be billed for it.

This selfish act of them not letting go and move on with their lives is not only (and most importantly) unhealthy for them, if their dead child is still in the US, the cost will be on taxpayer expense.

It's very sad, but it has to be logically brought up.

[daisy1957]

4. I doubt that California or whatever state she ends up in would be willing to take custody of a

corpse. Also, I seriously doubt that any state's Medicaid or insurance plan will pay for this. My questions is: are they relying on donations for long term care? That would be an awful lot of money.

[Milwaukee Prog]

6. I don't know that.

I've read and heard arguments over whether a dead person is considered property.

I just fear, wherever state she is in now, if she is still in the US, that ultimately the taxpayers of that state will get a major brunt of the bill.

[Scairp]

26. Of course they will

Caring for a brain dead body attached to machinery is no easy feat, nor will it be cheap. I don't understand the entire situation, but I suppose once the hospital put her on a vent before ascertaining what her actual condition was, complete brain death which equals actual and legal death, the mother was too distraught to accept it, and then this scumbag lawyer got involved and IMO, egged her on, making her believe the girl was still alive and might get better. I've never been to medical school either but I understand what brain death is so I'm not sure what about this the family doesn't understand. I'm sure I would have reacted the same way initially but after the reality of the situation set in, I would not keep my child's body on artificial life support for MY emotional benefit, or for whatever benefit they are doing this. She's a child and it's not fair but she really is gone and they should allow her to rest in peace. I suppose that's been said many, many times here but that is bottom line. I hope her mother does come to her senses and begin the process of mourning her child rather living on "magical thinking" in the vain hope she will recover.

[NickB79]

5. She can't be a ward; she's dead

At best, they could maybe get the family for mistreatment of a corpse?

[Milwaukee Prog]

7. I depends which doctor you talk to in figuring if she is dead or not (we both know she is!)

That's another good option on corpse mistreatment.

[BobbyBoring]

28. I 'm not sure about that

My ex girlfriend was in a bad accident in CA almost 9 years ago. She's a ward of the state and has been for all this time. She is for all practical means and purposes DEAD. Maybe there's a difference between dead and a "Vegetative state"?

Damned if I see one~

[NickB79]

30. Yes, brain dead and veg. state are two different diagnoses

Even in a vegetative state, the brain is still showing some signs of life.

Brain dead is complete cellular death.

[pnwmom]

9. A corpse doesn't suffer. Either she is dead, and suffering is no longer a concern,

or she is alive, and it should be up to the family what treatment she gets.

But her suffering can't be used as a reason to take her off life support against her family's wishes. With no brain function, she is not suffering.

[LisaL]

62. She isn't suffering but her body is deteriorating.

It's no longer able to control temperature or blood pressure. It also has an infection.
But I guess it's all good.

[pnwmom]

64. It is. And the statement by the lawyer yesterday makes me think

they're about ready to let go.

[LisaL]

80. That's the lawyer.

Her relatives don't seem nowhere near ready. Uncle just claimed she is moving and he thinks that she was smiling.

[pnwmom]

81. When did the uncle say that? Someone should explain to him

that in the natural process of dying, a corpse can move and make rattling sounds. It doesn't mean that the corpse has come back to life.

Also, her uncle says that they won’t believe she is dead until her heart stops beating. Yet they insist she stay on the mechanical ventilator that is the only reason her heart is still beating. Don’t you see the lack of logic here?

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/01/06/health/jahi-mcmath-girl-brain-dead/

Fisher concluded the next day that she met the criteria for brain death. According to a court filing, Fisher found that the girl's pupils were fully dilated and unresponsive to light and that she did not respond to a variety of intense stimuli.

His report also says Jahi showed no sign of breathing on her own when a ventilator was removed: "Patient failed apnea test." The report says her heart was beating only because of the mechanical ventilator.

In addition, an imaging test showed no blood flow to Jahi's brain, while another showed no sign of electrical activity.

SNIP

Medical ethicists, meanwhile, say the high-profile case fuels a misperception: that "brain death" is somehow not as final as cardiac death, even though, by definition, it is. The case is "giving the impression that dead people can come back to life," Arthur Caplan, director of the Division of Medical Ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center, told CNN last month.

SNIP

When asked about the girl's possible movement, Singer, the hospital spokesman, said he would not comment directly on any claims the family makes, citing privacy laws. However, Singer said it is "quite common" for the muscles of brain dead patients to move, stressing it's "not a sign of life."

[LiberalElite]

93. Interesting -

I've been to wakes where visitors said the same thing about the corpse in the coffin - "look, they're smilling! must be in heaven"

[warrant46]

105. Smiling ?

Unreal

[Sheldon Cooper]

23. How can she be 'suffering'? She is dead.

And you get extra bonus points for your compassion.

[Milwaukee Prog]

34. Maybe I will take back the suffering part then.

Which now brings up this question that I have made mentioned on another post, since she is dead, does that mean she is now property? Since there is no life, therefore she is a shell.

[Yo_Mama]

55. That's genuinely whacked. Do you understand what is going on?

A) The hospital and outside experts have certified that the child is in fact dead, which means there is no way that she can be suffering. The only way she could be suffering is if the family is right and she is NOT dead. Is that what you believe?
B) The child never had a feeding tube, and whatever difference that could make in a brain dead patient could only be very temporary.
C) How the fuck could a court take custody of a dead body away from the parents?

This tops all the weirdness on DU.

[Milwaukee Prog]

63. A. Please note I rescinded "suffering"

B. Perhaps you are right on that, but did she make it to her destination, if so, she is hooked up now.

C. It brings a question whether a dead person is considered property

[kjones]

8. Going to put it out there that I don't care, and I'm not sure why all you do either. nt

[pnwmom]

10. Most people are aware that any of us could end up in a similar situation,

either in the position of the 13 year old or as a family member.

How death is defined and who makes the decision should be a concern for everyone.

[kjones]

45. Sorry, I didn't say that quite right.

I guess what I don't understand is why this particular case (and others like it) are a "public opinion" topic.

You're right, it is important how death is defined and who makes decisions, which is exactly why all the
opinions expressed on this thread are so unnecessary. If I'm in this situation (vegetative, dead, w/e)
the last thing I'd want is the decisions about me tried by public opinion.

So I'm confused by the people who seem desperate to get the parents (apparently by legal force if necessary)
to some imagined "peace" with the situation (a nice euphemism for pulling the plug in this case). Or the people
who are incensed by the supposed suffering of the girl.
It doesn't have anything to do with them, so go make your own peace and pull your own relatives plugs if you're
so eager.

I suppose I'm confused by the counter-intuitive....ness...of people on a board of liberals et al being so gung ho
about asserting their opinions (some really freedom opposed ones too) where they need not be.

Unless there's something about this story I'm missing.

But I guess that's coming from someone that doesn't really care what happens to their body when they're dead.

[pnwmom]

46. I don't get the anger toward the parents either.

It's the story in Texas with the pregnant corpse that's getting to me. The situation is the same -- a dead woman, not a woman in the coma. But the family wants to let her go and the state is insisting the body be kept on the machines. It's sick.

[kjones]

49. That is certainly a strange one.

I had to look it up.
I suppose I could see something like that if the pregnancy was quite a ways on,
but being earlier, and with the possibility of fetus brain damage (though, I don't
think you could ever really know until it was born)...it's pretty ridiculous.

[pnwmom]

50. The fetus must have had brain damage.

The mother's heart had stopped beating for a long period of time -- till she was brain dead. That means no blood was circulating to the fetus for that period of time.

[LisaL]

60. If fetus was brain dead, I presume it would have died.

But it didn't.
There are cases of brain dead women being able to produce normally developing children. So it's far from certain that fetus has any brain damage.

[pnwmom]

65. The fetus's heart is pumping now because of the blood being circulated

through the mother. But while the mother's heart had stopped pumping, so had the fetus's.

I've heard of women in a VEGETATIVE state, i. e., a coma, giving birth to a baby that survived. But this woman is brain dead, which means that her body -- like the 13 year old's -- is deteriorating. How does a fetus survive in a corpse?

http://www.contracostatimes.com/news/ci_24857784/jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-teens-body-may-be

But even the best medical tools cannot replace the brain's role in regulating the critical balance of essential hormones, immunity and other chemicals, said Dr. Neal E. Slatkin, a neurologist and chief medical officer at San Jose's Hospice Of The Valley.

"The brain controls pretty much everything in the body," Slatkin said. "Without it, everything begins to break down."

A 2000 study by Harvard transplant surgeons, who closely examined donated organs after death, details the changes that occur after brain death, ranging from heart failure to diabetes.

"The insult" of brain death "evokes profound physiological and structural derangements in the peripheral organs," concluded Dr. Martin Gasser and his team in an Annals of Transplantation paper. Blood and other infections are likely, they wrote.


http://fox40.com/2013/12/28/when-life-support-is-really-death-support/

The term “life support” exacerbates the problem, too, because those who are brain dead do not have a life to sustain, said Arthur Caplan, director of the Division of Medical Ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center. This seems to be a fundamental problem in both cases that have entered the national spotlight, he said.

SNIP

In Caplan’s view, it doesn’t do any families any good if hospitals ask them about mechanically continuing biological function in a brain dead patient. He says doctors should be more transparent about the finality of brain death.

“It just creates the possibility of a terrible scenario like the one that’s unfolded (in Jahi’s case), where the parents don’t really understand and then start to resist any removal of machines because they just want to hope that the worst possible thing did not happen,” he said. “I don’t think it’s kind to not be clear when death happens.”

In the Texas case, Caplan noted, where it’s the family against a law, if Munoz is indeed brain dead, she is not, by definition, receiving “life-sustaining treatment.”

[LisaL]

68. Brain dead women have given birth to normally developing children.

Here is one such case. Woman was brain dead after an accident and produced a normally developing child. We are talking about brain dead woman producing an almost full term infant. So it by no means impossible for a brain dead woman to produce a normally developing infant. If the body needs any hormons doctors can provide them.

"A 30-year-old woman suffered massive brain injuries after a motor vehicle accident at 15 weeks' gestation. The patient was diagnosed as brain-dead on her tenth hospital day. She was supported with intensive care for 107 days after this diagnosis, and a normal 1555-g male infant was delivered at approximately 32 weeks' gestation by repeat cesarean section. The child is developing normally at 11 months of age. This represents the longest reported case of prolongation of pregnancy after brain death."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2761925

[pnwmom]

69. There is a key difference here. In this case, the woman

was injured in a car wreck, after which she presumably quickly got help. She didn't die till after ten days of constant care in a hospital.

The Texas woman was alone for as long as an hour before she was found with her heart not beating. She was already dead by the time she was hooked up to the machines.

[LisaL]

70. How does that make any difference?

Her brain was dead because of massive trauma.
She produced a normal infant.
And I haven't seen anything stating the TX woman was alone for as long as an hour before being found with her heart not beating.

[pnwmom]

71. There is no indication that the heart of the fetus in the car wreck

ever stopped beating.

However, in the Texas case, the fetus's heart would have stopped beating while her mother's was stopped, which could have been as long as an hour. Now it's beating again because the mother's heart is beating. But that won't suddenly fix its brain. Its brain is probably as dead as its mother's.

[LisaL]

72. How do you know that?

Fetus could have died regardless of whether mother's heart was beating. It didn't die.
You don't know anything about its brain either.
The hospital is going to carry out tests to see if it's developing properly.

[pnwmom]

74. The fetus's heart could have died even if the mother was alive. YES.

But the reverse is not true. If the mother's heart stopped beating for a significant length of time, then the fetus's heart would have stopped, too.

You said, "it didn't die" -- but there is no evidence for that. The fetus's brain is very likely dead -- which is the legal definition of death -- even though the mother's corpse is still acting as its heart/lung machine.

[LisaL]

75. How and why would the fetus heart restart if it ever stopped?

Mother's heart was presumably shocked back into beating.
Fetus could have a normally develping brain.
Brain dead women (who were brain dead for various reasons) have produced normally developing infants.

[pnwmom]

76. The fetus has a different kind of circulatory system.

It depends completely on getting oxygen from the mother, through the placenta. Once the mother stopped supplying oxygen to the fetus, brain death occurred.

Once the mother's heart was started again, it pushed blood into the placenta, which pushed it through the fetus's circulatory system, including its heart. But it couldn't bring the brain back to life.

Again, the difference between this case and the other you cited was the very long period of time this mother and her fetus were without oxygen. In the other case, it was conceivable that the fetus was without oxygen for a very short period of time (or maybe never). In the Texas case, the fetus was oxygen deprived for up to an hour.

http://www.chw.org/display/PPF/DocID/23045/router.asp

[LisaL]

77. There are other cases where women had strokes, etc, were brain dead and produced

normally developing infants.
You have no clue what the state of its brain is.
And neither does anyone else until the hospital does its tests.

[pnwmom]

78. But no cases you've shown me where the fetus was deprived of oxygen

for a considerable length of time.

Most of the other cases are women who were in comas, not brain dead.

But in the cases with brain death of the mother, I haven't seen any cases where the fetus was deprived of oxygen for a long period of time.

This is a fetus, not a baby with a separate life. The husband, as the father, should be the one to stand in for the mother and to give or withhold consent for the machines to keep his dead wife's heart beating.

[LisaL]

79. It's not up to me to decide whether she should stay on life support or not.

Husband can go to court and argue that since his wife is brain dead, the law doesn't apply to her. She is legally dead if she is brain dead. Sounds like would have a good argument there.
I am sure some lawyer could take the case pro bono.

[Niceguy1]

85. also the baby would not have run out of oxygen

Until the supply in its own circulatory system was depleted.

[pnwmom]

86. But there is no way that the 14 week FETUS could have held on

for an hour after its mother's heart stopped beating. A 3 and a half inch long, 14 week fetus. A few minutes, yes. But not an hour, or even longer.

Suppose a "miracle" occurs, and the baby is born with a heart still beating -- and devastating neurological injuries that will result in a lifetime of severe disability. All because of the state's decision to use a corpse as an incubator. Is the state going to love the baby? Is the state going to pay all its bills?

The Machados are the woman's parents, who fully support the husband's decision to unplug his wife's body.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/08/us/pregnant-and-forced-to-stay-on-life-support.html?pagewanted=2&rref=us&hpw

Mr. Machado said he had been told by the hospital’s medical team that his daughter might have gone an hour or longer without breathing before her husband woke and discovered her, a situation he believes has seriously impaired the fetus. “We know there’s a heartbeat, but that’s all we know,” he said.

Mrs. Machado said the doctors had told her that they would make a decision about what to do with the fetus as it reached 22 to 24 weeks, and that they had discussed whether her daughter could carry the baby to full term to allow for a cesarean-section delivery. “That’s very frustrating for me, especially when we have no input in the decision-making process,” Mr. Machado added. “They’re prolonging our agony.”

[Niceguy1]

88. nobody know how long the mother was pulseless

Non breathing. I doubt that the baby/fetus would have survived that enough to restart its heart on its own after that much time.

[pnwmom]

90. The reason it's beating is because of the force of the ventilator,

pushing air in and out of the mother's body, which sends oxygenated blood through her system, which pushes it through the placenta, and into the fetus's system. The heartbeat of the fetus is a function of the ventilator that's regulating the circulation of the dead mother's body. If you turned off the ventilator, the heart would stop beating. That is why the hospital is insisting it remain on.

Don't you find the attitude of the Texas officials chilling? If you were this woman's husband, wouldn't you find your interest in this to be superior to that of the state's?

"The state has a compelling interest in preserving the life of its unborn citizens," criminal defense attorney Danny Cevallos told CNN's New Day. "And that interest is superior to even the interest of the remaining family that might be charged with raising an ill child."

http://m.ksl.com/index/story/sid/28140394

[LisaL]

95. Well if the fetus is brain dead as you claim, neither the fetus nor its mother are actually alive.

In two more weeks, hospital will be able to carry out tests to determine the status of the fetus.
What if it's determined fetus is normally developing?

[pnwmom]

96. They cannot determine the fetus is normally developing.

Even the best testing doesn't allow that. The best they could tell is that there weren't any obvious anomalies. But -- assuming the pregnancy continues long enough to qualify for a c-section -- they won't know what kind of damage the fetus sustained till after it's born. And any baby born at only 24 weeks already has a huge risk of problems -- even without the history of some period without oxygen at 14 weeks.

I just read yesterday that one of the relatives was disturbed because the mother's skin had become "rubbery." That doesn't bode well for a healthy fetal environment, does it?

You asked why the family hasn't gone to court. My impression is that they're all in shock and overwhelmed. The husband is going to work, trying to take care of his child, and sitting by his wife's body for hours every day. That's all he can do right now, but he's not ruling out legal action.

FYI, during the debate on a fetal murder bill, then-Senator Brownback argued that a fetus would suffer severe neurological damage after only four minutes without oxygen, and would die after 15 minutes. That sounds about right to me. So what this hospital is doing is just insane.

http://www.nrlc.org/federal/unbornvictims/excerptssenatefloor/

Senator Sam Brownback (R-Ks.): When her mother’s heart stopped, her in utero child does not die instantly. Instead, the in utero baby dies slower. When the mother’s heart stops beating, the baby begins to suffocate for lack of oxygen. The baby can feel. The baby is in pain. At four minutes, the baby begins to suffer severe neurological damage. The process gets worse. [Unborn victim] Ashley Nichole would have finally died 15 minutes after her mother Christina had been shot and killed. Look at this photo again of Christina and Ashley in the coffin. Is there one victim? Or are there two? Who will say there is only one victim in this coffin? Yet this substitute amendment we are considering will say there is only one victim. [To this, Senator Feinstein responded, "It is extraordinarily difficult to respond to the litany of atrocities the Senator from Kansas has just enumerated."]

[LisaL]

98. Well unfortunately I can not go to court for him.

The law might not apply to his wife if she is legally dead. So if he goes to court he potentially could get a judge to order the hospital to remove his wife from life support.

[Saphire]

100. would the fetus continue to grow and develop if

It actually is brain dead? Wouldn't they be able to measure that in a week or two?

[pnwmom]

101. Those measurements aren't all that accurate for checking a week's

worth of growth, but yes, if it stops growing that would be a bad sign. They said they would know more at 22 weeks, which (I think) is in three weeks.

[LisaL]

104. Two weeks.

She is now at 20 weeks gestation.

[davidn3600]

11. Has any doctor anywhere given any chance of recovery?

As far as I've read, every single doctor that has examined Jahi says she's brain dead.

[warrant46]

94. No but the Lawyer has

[mackerel]

12. I wonder why a CPAP Machine wasn't

Recommended rather than surgery?

[mnhtnbb]

13. kids and adolescents don't comply well with CPAP machines.

[Hekate]

15. Apparently the family didn't comply, period.

I read the other night that this was the third attempt to clear her airways surgically; she was very overweight, diabetic, and asthmatic. All of these conditions are related to "lifestyle", which at the age of 13 is a situation in her parents' hands. After fairly complicated surgery her parents were told she had to be kept quiet and not talk (i.e. refrain from stressing the surgical area), and instead was encouraged to chat with a stream of visitors from extended family.

Non-compliance is a big issue, and not everybody understands it .... a few weeks ago someone here was grieving over a very young woman who was going to die from an inherited, congenital heart defect and was not eligible to be on the transplant list until she had been nicotine free for 6 months. For Gods' sake, her father had already died of this. Yet she (1) smoked cigarettes, and (2) got pregnant and had a baby. The pregnancy alone could have killed her off. Yet the outrage and grief expressed by some here that medical ethicists were not going to waste a scarce heart on her when she had proven she was incapable of following life-saving medical instructions was amazing.

I'm so sorry for Jahi and her family that her life is over, way too young. The loss of a child is past bearing. But.

Anyhow, to your point about CPAPs: when I started using mine almost 10 years ago it took a lot of getting used to, and I was highly motivated. I understand that the failure rate is fairly high, which is sad.

[No Vested Interest]

18. Re getting used to CPAP: no problem for me

I guess I was so grateful to be getting an uninterrupted night's rest that I gave no thought to the contraption over my head & nose.
Haven't been a night without it since.
Only posting this so that others would not be discouraged from using CPAP when indicated.

[yellowcanine]

20. overweight, diabetic, and asthmatic. All of these conditions are related to "lifestyle"

Asthma is not caused by "lifestyle." And diabetes is not necessarily caused by lifestyle either. Type I diabetes, formerly know as juvenile diabetes, occurs when the body does not produce insulin and in fact is the most common form of diabetes in children. It is not caused by obesity or by eating too much sugar. Type II diabetes can be triggered by obesity and does occur in children but less frequently than Type I diabetes.

Chronic illness is a problem for a person at any age but particularly difficult for children, and yes non-compliance is often an issue. But the term non-compliance is itself a medical diagnosis and should not be diagnosed or assumed by people - medical or otherwise- not directly involved with the patient's care.

[VA_Jill]

22. THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

I am so sick of hearing people blaming the parents for Jahi's illnesses. Another thing that people don't know is that in children, obstructive sleep apnea is often a contributing cause of obesity rather than the other way round as it is in adults. Also I have noticed in her pictures that she seems to have had an unusually short neck; it's possible that this also contributed to her problems. And if she was a severe asthmatic, she was likely on steroids, either frequently or chronically, which could also have contributed to her weight problem. So don't just assume it's the parents' fault! Her sleep apnea was so severe that she lost consciousness and wet the bed…this is not ordinary stuff they were dealing with. She was a very sick little girl and undoubtedly the parents and doctors had tried lots of things. Surgery was most likely a last resort, and it went horribly wrong.

Disclaimer: yes, I am an RN (retired)

[pnwmom]

91. They used to call untreated apnea "pickwickian syndrome," I believe,

recognizing that the apnea contributed to the excess weight. If you're tired all the time, you're not going to feel like getting much exercise. And you're right: she did appear to have a very short neck and that could have made everything worse. And if she, like many asthmatics, had to take steroids -- well, that would make her puffier, too.

Poor girl. Poor parents. Everybody here should stop criticizing them.

I think it makes people feel better to be able to blame the parents. Because if they can identify everything wrong that those parents might have done, then they can feel a bit more comfortable with the fact that death exists and we're all threatened by it, every single day. They can imagine that it only happens to stupid or undisciplined people who make mistakes, not smart, well-disciplined people like them.

[pnwmom]

47. Asthma isn't related to lifestyle, unless poverty is a lifestyle.

Poor people are more likely to develop asthma from living in a moldy apartment with roaches.

And childhood diabetes is a genetic condition -- not caused by lifestyle either.

And she has a short neck so even weight loss might not have helped. My son needs a cpap and he's tall and thin.

I'm uncomfortable with all the criticism I'm seeing of these heartbroken parents.

http://www.asthma.partners.org/NewFiles/BoFAChapter15.html

Chapter 15: Poverty and Asthma

The burden of asthma is not borne equally throughout this country. This inequality in disease severity became clear when researchers investigated deaths due to asthma. Approximately 5000 persons die of asthma each year in the United States, an annual risk of approximately 1 in 400,000 persons. However, the risk of death among African Americans is three-fold greater than among whites in America, and the differences widened throughout the 1980s.

What accounts for these differences? Although it is possible that there are genetic differences in asthma among different races, most evidence points to poverty as an important cause of disease severity in asthma (as it is in many other diseases). One study in New York City provided striking results as to the importance of income in determining the severity of asthma in the population. The investigators looked at hospitalizations for severe asthma among different neighborhoods in New York City, as distinguished by different zip codes. The frequency of hospitalizations for asthma differed as much as 16-fold from one zip code to the next, and the lower the average income of the population in any particular zip code area, the more frequent the need for hospitalization for severe asthmatic attacks. Persons of color have lower average incomes that whites and have more severe asthma and a greater risk of fatal asthma. Poverty may well be the explanation.

One can speculate as to why low income might lead to worse control of asthma. There are many possible reasons, and it is likely that more than one reason contributes most of the time. Exposure to the things that stimulate asthma is probably greater in poor households. Cockroaches in inner city homes, air pollution in industrial neighborhoods, cigarette smoking and second-hand smoke exposure, gas and other chemical fumes, lack of air conditioning, and inability to modify the home environment (for example, unable to take up a bedroom carpet or correct water leaks into a moldy basement) are some of the ways that poverty might predispose to worse asthmatic inflammation of the bronchial tubes.

SNIP

[cosmicone]

16. CPAP doesn't work when

a physical obstruction to the airway exists. CPAP would actually cause respiratory failure when used against a severely obstructed airway.

[Kali]

29. incorrect

obstructed airway is EXACTLY what CPAP is considered best treatment for. bold mine:

<snip>

Obstructive sleep apnea (OSA) is the most common category of sleep-disordered breathing. The muscle tone of the body ordinarily relaxes during sleep, and at the level of the throat the human airway is composed of collapsible walls of soft tissue which can obstruct breathing during sleep. Mild occasional sleep apnea, such as many people experience during an upper respiratory infection, may not be important, but chronic severe obstructive sleep apnea requires treatment to prevent low blood oxygen (hypoxemia), sleep deprivation, and other complications.

Individuals with low muscle tone and soft tissue around the airway (e.g., because of obesity) and structural features that give rise to a narrowed airway are at high risk for obstructive sleep apnea.

<snip>

Continuous positive airway pressure (CPAP) is the most effective treatment for severe obstructive sleep apnea but oral appliances are considered a first line approach equal to CPAP for mild to moderate sleep apnea according to the AASM parameters of care.[20] There are also surgical procedures to remove and tighten tissue and widen the airway.

<snip>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_apnea

[cosmicone]

35. The OSA described in wiki

is a garden variety OSA that is associated with a transient obstruction from the tongue falling down during stage II-IV sleep.

CPAP prevents the tongue from closing the airway and is a treatment of choice.

However, when there is a physical obstruction from enlarged lymphoid tissue or tumor, CPAP cannot work. The extra positive pressure cannot overcome a physical obstruction. Surgery is the only choice in these cases.

Try putting a crumpled bounty in your throat and using CPAP.

I was a director of a sleep disorders center in a prior life. Some of us actually went through medical school and residencies in lieu of getting a quick education on the intertubes.

[Kali]

36. then you would be impressed by my sleep study results LOL

severe OBSTRUCTIVE apnea - CPAP is the most effective treatment, I don't know about tumors or other issues, though it is also the upper palate more so than the tongue that seems to cause my problems.

I haven't followed this case much, did she have tumors? I think the surgery was for tonsils but that is all I read.

[cosmicone]

37. She had massive growth of lymphoid tissue

in the nasopharynx in addition to the tonsils. She also had uvulopalatopharyngoplasty as well where they reduce the size of the uvula and palate to enlarge the airway.

CPAP is great treatment for uncomplicated OSA -- good luck to you. The CPAP machines used to be as big as xerox copiers but now they are about the size of a large flashlight and extremely portable.

[Barack_America]

73. No. Type II diabetes is skyrocketing in obese children.

Due to the food choices their parents, schools and society make for them, not due to genetics.

[Beacool]

21. I was talking to a friend in FL who has been a nurse for over 30 years.

She has taken care of many patients like Jahi. She said that the parents should let her rest in peace. That in cases like hers the person never comes back. She also said that, although it's heartbreaking for the parents, the cost of keeping this child alive is immense and the resources could be used for other children who do have a chance of recovery.

Sad situation all around.

[Bigmack]

40. Yes! Just VERY sad Nt

[mackerel]

25. Thanksfor the info on why a CPAP wouldn't work in this case.

It has worked for me and they now make smaller nose/mouth coverings which has been wonderful for me. Regarding Asthma and weight there is a direct correlation. (I'm not sure about this case in particular but not to be rule out in general.)

[bluestateguy]

33. Somebody needs to have a gentle conversation with these parents

They are either delusional or not very educated, or both.

In any case, someone needs to respectfully and gently tell them what they need to hear, not what they want to hear.

[peace13]

38. So true...

and sometimes even the gentle conversations do not do the trick. Been there with that one! I hope these folks can find peace. It is all very sad.

[Milwaukee Prog]

39. It's gonna take a lot more than that

They are not dumb, but they are the type that will not let go by any means. Sadly prayers won't do any good, so the best option is for them to seek psychiatric help. The parents just can't handle grief.

[dflprincess]

41. Somewhere in the last week I read an OpEd piece that said the time has come to stop

calling it "brain death" and just all it death. As long as it is referred to as something different people will continue to think that somehow "brain death" is different from "cardiac death" when all it refers to is what system failed first. It might help the next of kin get past thinking there is hope just because a machine is making blips on the heart monitor.

[LiberalElite]

42. yes - the mother

says her daughter's skin is still warm - THAT's BECAUSE OF THE MACHINES!!!!!

[LisaL]

43. And the blankets.

They have to keep the body covered in blankets because it loses the ability to regulate its temperature.

[VanillaRhapsody]

53. I read recently that there is a serious decomp problem going on with the body too

[lindysalsagal]

44. Holy crap just let me go when my brain stops!

Does anyone honestly want to be kept around like this?Show of hands???

[warrant46]

48. Apparently the "Feeding Tube" is up and running

Saw it on the Telly just now

[DonViejo]

51. Here's the latest as of this a.m....

Jahi McMath: Family says brain-dead teen's body may be too deteriorated to save

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014690589

[warrant46]

52. Very Sad ---No Medical Doctor is going to try to revive a dead person with a death certificate

But some one apparently has done it




http://www.nationalrighttolifenews.org/news/2014/01/jahi-mcmath-flown-to-new-york-facility-feeding-and-breathing-tubes-to-be-inserted-today/#.UsyWRftgCkw


Jahi McMath flown to New York facility, feeding and breathing tubes to be inserted today

The family of Jahi McMath on Sunday moved the teenager, diagnosed as brain dead, to an as yet unnamed New York facility where the 13 year old has been accepted as a patient. There were numerous reports last week that New Beginnings Center in Medford, New York had agreed to take Jahi in and care for her around the clock.

The family’s attorney, Christopher Dolan, said Jahi will be hooked up to a feeding tube and a tracheotomy tube by this morning.

The funds needed to pay to fly Jahi to the New York facility came from private donations.

[irisblue]

54. what Dr put a feeding tube in? n/t

[warrant46]

56. Here's the link

http://www.nationalrighttolifenews.org/news/2014/01/jahi-mcmath-flown-to-new-york-facility-feeding-and-breathing-tubes-to-be-inserted-today/#.UsyqUftgCkw

The funds needed to pay to fly Jahi to the New York facility came from private donations.

[LisaL]

61. There were going to put a feeding tube in.

Last I heard it was not possible due to physical issues with the body.

[pnwmom]

87. That's what I heard, too. n/t

[LisaL]

99. Per what family has been posting on social media, they actually managed to put in a feeding tube.

[warrant46]

106. Doctors 'optimistic Jahi has stabilized' since being moved to new medical facility Read more: http:

"Her healing begins today": Family of Jahi McMath say teenager is finally getting nutrition she needs after being declared brain dead a month ago

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2536248/Her-healing-begins-today-Family-Jahi-McMath-say-teenager-finally-getting-nutrition-needs-declared-brain-dead-month-ago.html

Some of the comments are unbelievable such as

Grace, 19 minutes ago

I hope they sue the pants off the hospital who couldn't be bothered to even feed this child properly!

mcrach81, 30 minutes ago

if she pulls through it will be a real miracle and make us question whether other 'brain dead' patients could have survived


Geo, Seattle, United States, 5 hours ago

I'm glad to see that this family is FINALLY getting help from respectful professionals. That's all they ever needed, wanted, and deserved, Jahi too. The original hospitals actions and attitude toward this shocked and grieving family has been despicable since the hospital failed this child.

AMAZING --what propaganda can do