House Intelligence Chairman Implies Snowden Had Help From Russians

[Demeter]

Source: NPR

Rep. Mike Rogers made some strong allegations against former NSA contractor Edward Snowden on NBC's Meet the Press Sunday.

Rogers, a Republican from Michigan, implied that Snowden received helped from Russia's security service both to steal the highly classified documents and then to travel to Russia, where he received temporary asylum.

NBC News reports:

'He was stealing information that had to do with how we operate overseas to collect information to keep Americans safe.... And some of the things he did were beyond his technical capabilities' — a fact which Rogers said 'raises more questions. How he arranged travel before he left. How he was ready to go, he had a go bag, if you will.'

"Rogers added that he believes 'there's a reason he ended up in the hands, the loving arms, of an FSB (Russian security service) agent in Moscow. I don't think that's a coincidence....I don't think it was a gee-whiz luck event that he ended up in Moscow under the handling of the FSB.'"

Read more: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/01/19/263947736/house-intelligence-chairman-implies-snowden-had-help-from-russians?ft=1&f=1001

---

Mike Rogers is talking through his hat...I sincerely doubt that HIS technical capabilities extend beyond two finger typing. And his mommy helps him pack, no doubt. I cannot imagine how a Republican can make such a ridiculous statement, except for that anti-science tendency, not to mention the anti-intellect and anti-Constitutional tendencies.

I think he is owed a serious libel tort.

Worse yet, Diane Feinstein is doing it, too. Shame! Shame!

On Edit:

A 1985 graduate of Adrian College, Mike was a commissioned officer in the U.S. Army through the Reserve Officers’ Training Corps at the University of Michigan, then served as an FBI special agent before being elected to the Michigan Senate in 1995. Mike has served Michigan’s Eighth Congressional District in Congress since 2001.

[cantbeserious]

1. Ever More Character Assassination And Bogey Man Fear Mongering - All Designed To Deflect Discussion

eom

[psychopomp]

63. These are legitimate questions

I'd say that your offhanded poo-pooing of these allegations are just as spurious as any attempt at character assassination would be. Snowden did seem to have all of his t's crossed and i's dotted and the US does have a history of infiltration by various spy agencies. Is there reason to be so quick to dismiss these observations?

[cantbeserious]

70. So Anyone With A Plan Of Action Is Now Automatically Considered A Spy

eom

[psychopomp]

95. Yes, we are talking about the spying game

This is big-league stuff and we can assume that there are big-league players. How much involvement was there and when did it begin?

[Demeter]

97. I've been thinking this is to divert the crime onto the whistleblower that Rogers and DiFi committed

By trying to hang the "traitor" label on someone else...someone who DIDN'T betray the People, but gave them the Knowledge that will set them FREE.

[cantbeserious]

98. + 1,000 - We Have A Winner

eom

[jtuck004]

2. LOL. And Americans take time off to vote for this person to get a salary from them?

[Demeter]

3. We have a lot of stupid people in Michigan

The smart ones left for employment...I'm retired here, came home at last, to the People's Republic of Ann Arbor, as a GOP fascist relative called it.

[jtuck004]

5. We have one or two here in Washington - the rep in this district pulled a gun

on someone in a road rage incident, and during the last campaign put pictures of his opponents home up on his web site so his grubby little followers would know where to deliver their anger...

Not smarter than a hedgehog.

[GoneFishin]

4. Fresh from his ass no doubt. What a moron. Russia wasn't where he was headed anyway. nt

[okaawhatever]

47. He couldn't fly to Russia without a visa. He said he chose Hong Kong because Americans could travel

there without a visa. Snowden said any visa application would have raised flags with his work.

[NorthCarolina]

6. This 'new revelation' is a pretty lame, as are the same 'ol authoritarians they are

trotting out to sell this newest load of BS to the public. The emperor has no clothes.

[Downwinder]

7. It is interesting to hear Rogers admit that Russian Intelligence is

more proficient than the US's. It must be so if a Russian teen stole all the data from under US security's noses.

[Demeter]

8. Oooh! That Smarts!

As I understand it, the teenager merely developed the malware....then sold it to the Russian equivalent of the NSA Mafia....

And he could do that, because US retailers like to save pennies, and have as much technical sophistication and forethought as Mike Rogers and DiFi.

[Downwinder]

10. Any way you look at it, there is no security in NSA.

[Demeter]

11. And no intelligence on the intelligence committee!

[Downwinder]

19. I am not convinced that Snowden is not still in the NSA system.

I have been a Sysadmin and I always provided alternate means of access, if for no other reason than to preclude a single point failure.

[Demeter]

20. And I hope the NSA is losing a lot of sleep over that thought

Snowden is a computer genius AND a profoundly ethical, democratic, patriotic and courageous man. And so many lesser types really can't stand that.

[Downwinder]

21. Whats a Geek to do in a hotel room for several weeks

with four computers?

[nenagh]

22. It seems easier to for them to believe that Snowden had Russian help..

than for the Intelligence Committee to want to recognize security deficiencies in the system.

I've always wanted to ask someone in your field...

Do you suspect that the NSA system, at Booz Allen in Hawaii, was porous, so to speak?

Sorry, I don't know the proper terminology.. but am curious if a professional such as yourself would consider that there must have been security gaps in the system for Snowden to be able to obtain so many documents.

That makes intuitive sense to me.. but it's not my field..

[Downwinder]

24. Manning had already shown the systems were not monitored.

.

[nenagh]

37. Thank you, Downwinder..

Much appreciated.

[1000words]

9. They got nothing, so ...

they fling whatever they can and hope something sticks.
Now, let's watch in amusement as the usual DU suspects offer their support for the latest pretzel logic ...

[KittyWampus]

12. Considering his connection to Assange, it's a distinct possibility.

[Hissyspit]

13. "Other U.S. security officials have told Reuters as recently as last week that the United States

Other U.S. security officials have told Reuters as recently as last week that the United States has no evidence at all that Snowden had any confederates who assisted him or guided him about what NSA materials to hack or how to do so."

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSBREA0I0EW20140119

And...

The lawmakers, Representative Mike Rogers, Republican of Michigan, and Senator Dianne Feinstein, Democrat of California, offered no specific evidence that Mr. Snowden cooperated with Moscow. So far, there has been no public indication that the F.B.I.'s investigation into Mr. Snowden’s actions, bolstered by separate “damage assessment” investigations at the N.S.A. and the Pentagon, has uncovered evidence that Mr. Snowden received help from a foreign intelligence service.

[Thinkingabout]

28. Evidence will be furnished in Snowden's espionage trial.

[Hissyspit]

34. ...unless there is no espionage trial,

Last edited Mon Jan 20, 2014, 05:30 AM - Edit history (1)

and there is no actual evidence (as opposed to ginned-up "evidence&quot .

Until then,

Blah

Blah, blah, blah

Blah

[Thinkingabout]

38. Yep, you got it, bah, bah bah.

[Hissyspit]

14. Get back to me when you offer some goddamned evidence.

[wildbilln864]

18. exactly! thank you. n/t

[Maedhros]

35. "Given that Kittywampus hates Assange, Snowden is bad."

Impeccable logic.

[woo me with science]

78. There's a map to prove it, too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023164458

[Maedhros]

83. I hadn't seen that thread!

It was oddly...beautiful, yet strange.

[blackspade]

15. Rogers is talking out of his ass.

If he had actual information that corroborated his statement, that would be one thing.
But lying for political points is a disgrace.
Feinstein was no better and David Gregory never called them out on it.

[Thinkingabout]

39. Lying and stealing is a disgrace, wonder when Snowden is going to come clean. Oh,

Forgot to add, Snowden did his deeds for political reasons, he is an activist.

[blackspade]

54. Siding with the rethuglicans and corporate cronies I see...

But it's all about Snowden....
It's like listening to a parrot...Snowden...squawk!

[Thinkingabout]

56. If calling a thief a thief is siding with republicans in your mind then go ahead. Since

All Republicans thinks all Republicans are innocent as shown by Christie and George Bush never lied then it appears you are following the Republican thinking. But all in all, I do not vote Republican and I support Democrats. You think what you want, a thief in my book is a thief.

[blackspade]

59. All in all, huh.

An interesting way to put it.

My original comment was about Rogers and DiFi but you had to inject Snowden into it because that is the only way you know how to deflect from our government's intentional violation of our Constitutional rights.
Snowden may not turn out to be a perfect messenger for the fact that the NSA is violating our rights, but that is beside the point. As for being a thief, well that makes all whistle blowers thieves right? Ellsberg? Deepthroat? Thieves, right?

[Thinkingabout]

62. Did you notice Snowden was already in this thread? You pointed out that Rogers lied, I

Pointed out Snowden lied and he is a thief. Did the others steal files from the NSA and already have their travel plans together to leave the US? Snowden flew to Russia and it might be reasonable he has been a patsy for a foreign country.

[blackspade]

67. You didn't address my post....again

Maybe you could be thinking about how the NSA is violating our rights more and about Snowden less.
At this point you are bringing nothing to the discussion, so I'm done.
But by all means keep squawking.

[Demenace]

71. Is it possible to have both conversations around here?

The conversation that the NSA may have violated the rights of Americans and the other that Snowden is not an honest broker on this issue?
Why must we sacrifice one for the other? You can choose to focus on the NSA violations while some of us can focus on the actions of Snowden and those he may be running with, no?

[JDPriestly]

80. Did you get a chance to watch the video of the press conference given by the other NSA

whistleblowers? Snowden was not the first.


http://new.livestream.com/accuracy/nsa-rebuttal/videos/39824993

Lots of interesting information. And toward the end, there is an explanation about why Snowden went to Russia, just how he happened to go there instead of to his original destination.

[MannyGoldstein]

16. The Russkies forced the NSA to use SharePoint, and to make Snowden the SharePoint admin

Crafty people, those Russkies.

[riderinthestorm]

17. LOL... they got nothing. So they're just going to make shit up now nt

[Demeter]

23. A more detailed report from (where else?) the Guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/19/edward-snowden-nsa-mike-rogers-russia

Mike Rogers REALLY shot his mouth off...unfortunately, only figuratively

[Downwinder]

25. Sounds familiar.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/18/opinion/the-whistle-blower-who-freed-dreyfus.html?hp&rref=opinion&_r=0

[Demeter]

27. I read that earlier....good historical revision/explication

and a guide for modern times.

[bemildred]

65. Yes. Excellent analogy.

Giant political dogfight, all about careers, and almost all empty noise.

[NancyDL]

26. Darn! I hate to see the words "Intelligence" and "House" in the same headline

It's nice though, that we can trust a lot of these bozos to leap up with an ill-advised quote based on their "expertise". 8-)

[jmowreader]

29. (Shrugging) It's possible

I looked at the requirements for the job Snowden had at CIA. "Requires Bachelor's degree in computer science, master's degree preferred." They are VERY firm about this requirement: several enlistments' worth of military experience with no degree won't get you a second glance from the civilian intel services. Snowden is a high school dropout with a GED and a trainee discharge from the Army combat arms; how the hell did he get in? And don't say it's because of how wonderful he is with a computer; there are tons of MSCS and PhD-level wonderful-with-computer people who'd be overjoyed to work at a place that isn't in it purely for the bucks.

[Demeter]

30. NO, it's not

If it were, somebody would have been publicly crucified already for "letting him in". Scared, stupid people will do anything to save face.

[jmowreader]

33. Unless that somebody left the Agency before he was suspected

Small flight of fancy: you're a double agent who's recruiting young impressionable people into the secret intelligence services. Then one of your guys decides to out himself. You have two choices: stay in the agency, get discovered and go to jail; or resign and jump on a plane to Moscow after giving your network instructions to do the same.

More troubling is Snowden might not actually be the spy. Consider: the shit Snowden disclosed isn't super damaging to the intel community. But say you were running a serious agent network, and you wanted to close it down while drawing attention away from it. The best way would be to dangle a shiny bauble like Snowden in front of the world.

[Thinkingabout]

40. You just might be on to something here. The longer time the investigation continues the

More the evidence is gathered. The intelligence community wants more than the patsy, they want all of the big boys also.

[Hissyspit]

45. Or not.

[brush]

73. It's been reported that NSA doesn't know how much . . .

info Snowden absconded with. In terabytes of info I can't believe there weren't names of people and operations that American intelligence didn't want revealed.

[sendero]

88. Snowden has not revealed any names of operatives..

.. and he and greenwald have pledged not to, so quit making shit up.

They are worried not about operatives or national security or any of that bullshit, their continual lies make it pretty clear they are worried about maintaining their little surveillance fiefdom whether constitutional or not, and keeping their jobs. And they are worried that something Snowden took will jeopardize that.

[brush]

89. There was so much date Snowden himself doesn't even know what he stole

And you think the Chinese and Russians haven't had access to what he took with him? I'm not that naive.

Snowden should have stuck with revealing that the NSA was doing domestic info gathering and would justifiably be a legitimate whistle blower and hero.

[sendero]

90. There is ZERO evidence....

.. that any of this has been turned over to the Russians much less the Chinese.

Making shit up seems to be what you do.

[Downwinder]

91. After Manning and Snowden have shown us how secure US data is,

how can one doubt that the Russians and Chinese already have everything they want?

[sendero]

92. No doubt..

... they (R+C) are fighting a true cyber war while our three-letter organizations blame Iraq "intelligence" failures on lack of data sharing (yeah, right) and then open their kimono to the world.

When self-perpetuation and funding is more important than anything else, success at your real mission is unlikely to happen.

[brush]

93. And how would you possibly know that?

You're in contact with Snowden's Chinese and Russian handlers?

Of course you're not. You don't know what they got from him, but they sure didn't shelter and feed him and continue to shelter him for nothing.

Don't be naive. Guess you were asleep during all the headlines about Merkl's phone, and the Brazil info gathering?

So please stop with the "ZERO evidence" pronouncements.

[Downwinder]

31. You are suggesting that there is a mole in the CIA

that got Snowden hired?

[jmowreader]

32. Yes. It's happened before.

Google Kim Philby sometime.

Double agents have always been a huge problem.

[Demenace]

46. If I remember...

A certain Glenn Greenwald is alleged to have known him before he got his job as a "Contractor" with BA group which made it possible for him to gather the types of information he now has handled over to Glenn Greenwald. Would it be a stretch of the imagination to think, Glenn Greenwald provided him some guidance in his selection of information to pull?

So if this is something that is possible with a Glenn Greenwald type arrangement, why would you not think a concerted effort by an intelligence organization is possible or the fact that this is a distraction of some sort.

It is amazing that for a site full of supposedly smart people, it is but a few people attempting to have a wider conversation on this subject.

And by the way, for an NSA that assumed by most around here as an organization that is all knowing in our lives, it is amazing that we would also not recognize the fact that the all-knowing NSA did not catch the thief inside their house!

[blackspade]

55. That is not factual

Snowden and Greenwald did not know each other before Snowden became a contractor.

[Demenace]

74. Is this because you say so or you want me to believe so...

Here is Glenn Greenwald say what you say is false when this question was initially brought up.

"On Monday morning, Greenwald tweeted that “Gellman's claims about Snowden's interactions with me -- when, how and why -- are all false,” but did not elaborate.

Greenwald told HuffPost that Snowden was communicating with him for months on what would become a series of stories. Since May 16, he had apparently also been speaking to Gellman for what would become the Post's PRISM story. Greenwald said they expected an article in The Washington Post would “invest official Washington in the leak," so they brought in Gellman, a two-time Pulitzer Prize winner, for that particular story. He said it was Poitras who introduced Snowden to Gellman. "

[blackspade]

77. This article might help you.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/snowden-and-greenwald-the-men-who-leaked-the-secrets-20131204

It lays out the timeline of the leaks and what happened to the information.

[Maedhros]

36. Well, then, I guess I'll have to thank the Russians for revealing to the public

just how entrenched the National Security State has become.

Who knew they were champions of informed democracy?

[Thinkingabout]

41. Do you think for one second the Russians are not experienced in intell gathering?

[Maedhros]

76. No, I imagine they are quite good at it.[n/t]

[Sunlei]

42. The russians didn't get him that cushie job and the security clearance. who did?

[Demenace]

43. My very first post around here so forgive me!

I have been a user here for a very long time, lost my old user name: Silent Observer but did not know why so I eventually registered as Demenace but I have since not posted here even though I visit daily.

Today, I have decided to post my thoughts and I know from previous experience of people who have said the things I am about to say that the reception may not be the most welcoming but I do not really care.

My issue is, why are folks around here so believing of one party in this NSA issue? How is this attitude around here any better for the tone of this discourse? How is the fanatic belief of the preferred narrative around here any better than the Fox news folks and their followers?

Just a few of the questions I have running around my head when I read comments concerning this issue. My thoughts about the types of posters here has been one in which I envisage professionals and very thoughtful people coming together to discuss issues of national relevance, not personality worshipers but increasingly that is the tone of the discourse around here!

[okaawhatever]

48. Amen. +1000 nt

[Demeter]

50. Maybe because a LOT of us know geeks, are geeks, or are intelligent, or a combination?

Which is more than I can say for the fascists who want to string Snowden, Assange, Greenwald, Occupy, and anything else that disturbs their drug habit of "security" and "fear" and terra, terra, terra?

And some of us have known a lot of fundies, fascists, and just plain stupid people, the world being so over-populated with them.

This place, aside from the trolls ((paid or just malicious), is a self-selecting community of peers. We have a common world view, experience, question, outlook on what should be.

If this isn't your cup of tea, it's no great loss for you.

And as for the BOG, Bog knows. (that's a very inside joke)

[Demenace]

51. Just saying...

Could your all-knowing assumption on this and every issue be your very vulnerability? Could you somehow create room in your all-knowing nature to let some other point of view widen your perspective on life?

You know, your post in response to mine comes across exactly like the "fundies, fascists and just plain stupid people, you claim the world is so over populated with", exactly because you offer no substance but the dismissal of the view you cannot wrap your mind around.

So how different are you, again?

[Demeter]

52. Have fun on Ignore

[Demenace]

53. My exact point...

This from a poster who calls others names and cannot be bothered to engage in the exchange of ideas. Maybe, we need to check ourselves least we become what we call others - fascists!

[Fumesucker]

82. What makes your assumptions any more likely, your point of view any more coincident with reality?

We know that the NSA is "the least untruthful" they can be, Clapper told us so.

[Demenace]

94. What assuptions are you talking about?

My post was directed at a specific poster and his post so what are you talking about again? Do you folks just jump on anyone who takes on your pals? Did I say anything about the NSA been truthful or otherwise? What is wrong with you people?

[bemildred]

66. I don't believe any of them. They are one and all admitted liars. It's what they do.

So, relying on their veracity is sort of like being a sucker.

[xocet]

44. Would it now be proper to call him Rep. Mike "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" Rogers? n/t

[Demeter]

49. "Moron" he Might understand

I wouldn't go any higher up the scale.

[frwrfpos]

57. Its all the commies!

I see old propaganda never goes out of style.

[frwrfpos]

58. forgot to recommend this

thank you for the article

[Demeter]

60. Thank you!

[struggle4progress]

61. Rogers, in saying this, is entirely safe from a defamation suit, on any number of theories:

first, because Rogers, as a congressman, is protected by the constitutional debate clause;

second, because Rogers has quite a number of defenses, even if he were ruled un-immunized by the debate clause, insofar as he could argue that he was merely expressing opinion, that he made fair comments on a matter of public interest, that he made his his statements in good faith and believed them to be true, that the plaintiff (having chosen to live in Russia) suffered no actual injury in result of comments made to an American audience, or that the plaintiff was already held in such wide disrepute that the statements could not have contributed significantly to any further degradation of his reputation;

third, because Snowden, having indisputably and deliberately made himself into a public figure, would face a high hurdle in pursuing suit, since he must not only prove the statement false (which would require him to provide testimony in US court and to subject himself there to cross-examination, a step he will not undertake, being a fugitive from justice), he must also prove the statement was malicious (meaning that he would have to prove Rogers made the statement knowing it to be false and did so in order to harm Snowden's reputation, Rogers being well-positioned to call numerous witnesses to rebut both claims);

and fourth, because (as shown above) Snowden is so unlikely to prevail (insofar as he must prove actual damage to his reputation, attributable to Rogers, while, in fact, Rogers' claim is not novel to Rogers himself and has been widely broadcast, both as fact and as conjecture, by other commentators), and is therefore unlikely to survive a defense motion for summary dismissal, and is thus unlikely to obtain counsel willing to accept contingent payment, Snowden would face the prospect of funding such suit out of his own meager pocket

[frwrfpos]

64. revealing and disturbing

.

[bemildred]

68. 'And some of the things he did were beyond his technical capabilities'

First off, admittedly, Rogers has no way to know that except hearsay.

Secondly, it appears to be the veriest horseshit, as all the feedback from his peers was he was an uber-wizard and that's why he got whatever he wanted. Having been in that position, I can tell you it is that easy.

Thirdly, he cleaned their clock, ate their lunch, and stole their marbles, so how dumb must they be if he did that, and he is dumb (Edit: and this is what they claim to be wizards at)? And so why should I listen to them whine about it now?

[Downwinder]

69. Someone should ask Rogers and Difi if their

communications are being captured.

[SoapBox]

72. Comrade Eddie, the Traitor

Didn't just innocently stumble on the stuff at the NSA...his actions were corrdinated and well planned.

Those that think that he didn't have assistance and was not trained for this, have their heads in the sand.

But, the Musket and Three-Cornered-Tin-Foil-Hat crowd will continue to promote him as some kind of hero...he is not and his actions make him anything but an American.

Traitor Eddie, you can kiss The United States of America good-bye FOREVER!

[Hissyspit]

84. They gave NOTHING to support their claims.

And neither have you.

You don't know what you're talking about. See Post #14.

[Bradical79]

75. Maybe

But nothing he says here really points to Russian help before hand. And his comment on Snowden's technical ability sounds like he is just talking out of his ass.

[woo me with science]

79. Our government and its propaganda machine are deadly dangerous

and horrifyingly corrupt.


This is pure fabrication of a deadly serious charge.

Our government is already fabricating evidence trails against Americans based on NSA spying.

NSA spying is already being used for sexual blackmail.

The Espionage Act is already being viciously abused and has been outrageously expanded.

We are in grave, grave trouble in this country.

[hughee99]

81. As a former FBI special agent, his computer skill are probably better than that,

but without personally knowing Snowden, he has no way of knowing what his technical capabilities are. He's still talking out his ass.

[GeorgeGist]

85. Agent Mike is quite the numbskull.

[Hotler]

86. I saw that today on Washington Journal before I left for work and I......

call BULLSHIT! They are reaching for anything that came make the NSA not look like a turd. Diane Feinstein, what a tool. Mike Rogers is just another repug shit stain. It's only matter of days before O starts singing the same song.

[Solly Mack]

87. There's a Commie under my bed!

[Splinter Cell]

96. Snowden is a piece of shit.

If he really believed what he was doing was right, and that he was doing a service to his country, he wouldn't have run like a fuckin' weasel. He would have stood up for his principals and faced the music, but no. I can't believe so many people here think this asshole is some kind of hero.