Knox's judge explains guilty verdict

[steve2470]

Source: AP

The judge who presided over Amanda Knox's second murder conviction says he suffered over the verdict but that he and the jury agreed about her guilt in the death of British student Meredith Kercher.

Judge Alessandro Nencini said he agreed to be interviewed by Corriere della Sera for Saturday's editions because he knew the sentence would create a media storm.

Nencini says the jury had come up with a motive that would be explained in the written explanation of the verdict, expected within three months. But he hinted at the conclusion, saying that up until 8:15 p.m. on the night of the murder, Knox and her now ex-boyfriend had other plans but that something changed.

He told Corriere: "If Amanda had gone to work, probably we wouldn't be here."

Read more: http://journalstar.com/news/world/europe/knox-s-judge-explains-guilty-verdict/article_2a1f5bae-b19f-557f-8f4c-26a87047ab50.html

---

another source here:

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ex-boyfriend-sollecito-never-intended-flee

[lostincalifornia]

1. Why would it take 3 months to come up with the explanation of the verdict?

[Lasher]

5. How is it that Tom DeLay has never spent a day in jail?

Italy has its own criminal justice system and it's not the same one as ours. Remember that whenever you are in a foreign country.

[warrant46]

44. I will never go to that Pest Hole

[reACTIONary]

45. Been there a couple of times...

...not the greatest, but not all that bad.

[dipsydoodle]

6. I think you'll find

that Italian law allows that time which covers other aspects aside from the explanation of the verdict - all done in one go.

[Fred Sanders]

14. I think you will find that the vast majority of DU people have no clue about Italian legal

procedure and do not even care to acknowledge it is anywhere as "exceptional" as the American legal system.

A shame.

[lostincalifornia]

18. That is why I am asking

[snooper2]

52. It's almost like you have a vested interest in this case

Seeing you in every possible thread on the topic LOL..


Did she turn down a date with you?

[Fred Sanders]

12. Legal judgments are often reserved for periods of time. For the judges to explain in detail the

Italy does not try anybody by a jury of peers: everyone is judged by professional judges or by a panel of judges (three or five or nine). The only exception to the use of professional judges is in the Corte d'Assise, which is made up of eight judges: two are professional, six are lay (they are called Giudici Popolari or Popular Judges, where 'popular' means 'of the people'). All wear a sash in the national colours. They are not technically jurors, as the term is understood in Anglo-Saxon jurisprudence. In Italian, Giudice (Judge) refers both to the eight of them together as a collective body[22] and to each of them considered separately as a member of that body. Legal judgments are often reserved even after the verdict, the verdict being the thing needed most quickly, not the detailed rationale.

Italian law and legal procedure are clearly much different than America, the same words have different meanings, they do use Italian after all.
Criticizing without understanding results in misunderstanding.

[lostincalifornia]

19. I did not criticize, I asked a simple question. You answered it

[reACTIONary]

46. Thanks for the explination, and...

... welcome to DU!

I think you will find folks here to be genuinely curious about other places, peoples, and times and much less prone to self aggrandizing claims of American exceptionalism than you might encounter elsewhere.

[lobodons]

26. Takes months for our SCOTUS to release their decisions

Our SCOTUS takes months to write their decisions as well. They just don't release their decisions until they have been written.

[24601]

30. It's not just the time to write opinions & dissents, but also the process of reaching a decision in

the 1st place. Within SCOTUS, the justices are exchanging memorandums to achieve & maintain the majority vote(s) required for a decision. Relatively little is actually left by the time the court hears oral arguments. But that's what is visible so that's what appears to carry the weight. And after the oral arguments, the justices conference to take the vote and assign writing duties. The most senior Justice on the majority assigns who writes the opinion. Each justice also is free to write a separate concurring or dissenting opinion.

[lobodons]

41. Roberts switch

I believe it was during this time that Roberts switched his decision on the ACA. Perhaps Amanda can get her reprieve just like the ACA did.

[Liberalynn]

47. They need time to hire a creative writer to come up with one

[bemildred]

2. That didn't explain anything. nt

[Captain Stern]

3. The jury came up with a motive?

So, they didn't believe the motive the prosecutor gave....so they just made up their own?

That sounds messed up.

[dipsydoodle]

7. Which dosen't change the fact

that the jury's verdict was beyond doubt in their own minds - the purpose of a jury.

[Gothmog]

54. I really have no confidence in the Italian justice system

The evidence that I have seen has been weak. This case would never make it to a US jury

[HERVEPA]

4. " He told Corriere: "If Amanda had gone to work, probably we wouldn't be here."

And if I hadn't turned on my computer, I wouldn't be reading this now. So what?
What a stupid and/or corrupt judge.

[JoeyT]

8. Why would they need a new motive?

I was convinced from the start by Satanic Sex ring, and found the theory of the Giant Angry Turd to be quite believable as well.

What a joke.

[sked14]

11. LOL.

[blackspade]

9. Why can't it be explained now?

The jury came up with a theory?
What bullshit. This is face saving by the Italian judicial system.
I feel terrible for her ex who has to actually deal with this shit in person.

[Fred Sanders]

13. Italian law mandates that the detailed verdict must be delivered in 90 days, on the appeal side.

Their country, their rules.

[blackspade]

15. That doesn't answer my question.

What is the procedural reason since you know so much about the Italian legal system?
Why does the jury get to create it's own theory?

[Fred Sanders]

16. Both the defendant and the prosecutor can appeal against the judgement before the Corte d'Appello

Do not forget that this "trial" is an appeal of the first appeal that overturned the trial conviction.

For a defendant to be convicted, the Judge must be internally convinced (Italian law requires the Judge's intimo convincimento); because of that, there are no rules that predetermine the weight to be attributed to any given piece of evidence, so even credible admissions [of guilt] can do no more than reduce the amount of extrinsic evidence necessary for a finding of guilt.[20]

Before the beginning of the trial phase, the parties file a brief, detailing all evidence they want to present – the parties have to indicate by name every witness and precise what these will be asked –; both the defendant and the prosecutor can cross-examine each other's witnesses. The Judge may choose not to admit any testimony that appears patently superfluous, reject irrelevant or improper or irregular questions – such as leading questions – and also ask questions to the witnesses and experts.
The Judge can also, but only when absolutely necessary, order additional evidence to be taken.

Appeals

The Court of Cassation cannot rule on the merits of a case, so, when quashing a verdict issued by a lower Court, it is possible that the members of the Court realize that further fact-finding is required to reach a final judgement.

In these cases, the Court quashes the previous judgement, but it remands the case to another criminal division of the Appellate Court that issued the appealed decision or, if it is not possible, to a criminal division of the nearest Appellate Court.
The Judge ad quem (the one the case is remanded to) can try de novo the defendant, but must conform to the contingent points of law applied by the Court of Cassation. The verdict issued by the Judge ad quem is appealable before the Court of Cassation.

Yes, it is very, very complicated and utterly foreign to Americans and anyone familiar with the British system.

[blackspade]

25. Thanks for the info.

That still leaves me questioning why it why it takes 3 months to announce the specifics of the verdict.
Based on what you posted, does this mean that during the 3 months, the prosecution and defense are appealing?
So until the Corte d'Appello rules, the verdict is not 'final' so that it can be appealed to the Italian supreme court?

[Fred Sanders]

32. Standard operating procedure under Italian criminal appeals law

"The Florence court began hearing the second appeal in late September. There, prosecutors argued that Knox and Sollecito carried out the murder alongside Rudy Guede, a young man from Ivory Coast who was convicted of the killing and is serving a 16-year sentence following a fast-track trial."

As is standard practice in Italy, the Florence court gave no explanation for its verdict and now has up to 90 days to publish its reasoning."

[blackspade]

35. Why does it take 90 days?

What are the mechanics involved in this time period?
Are they crafting the reason for the verdict on the back end?
This seems to put the cart before the horse in determining guilt.

[Fred Sanders]

36. I understand it is to allow for an appeal period.....apples and oranges legal systems.

[blackspade]

38. I'm not comparing ours to theirs.

What are the mechanics involved in this time period?
Are they crafting the reason for the verdict on the back end?

I'm guessing at this point that you just don't know and don't want to say so.

[Demenace]

20. Fred, you work too hard to educate people who have forgotten what education is...

Most posters around here prefer a narrative or spin to getting educated on any story otherwise, you would not see so-called smart people demanding that a foreign nation's judicial system act like theirs!

What most here cannot understand is, just like most civilized people around the world cannot understand why a developed nation does not universal health care and are fighting it in America, the judicial system of another country is a product of the ways the people of that country wish to maintain the social contract in their society!

I applaud you, though!

[blackspade]

27. Seriously?

[Adrahil]

24. Absolutely! And our country, our rules!

This was an entirely political outcome. I've read the "evidence." It's thin, and that's being generous.

She's interrogated for hours without a lawyer, then prosecutor is a certified nutcase, and the high court practically directs a verdict. Even is she is guilty, that process is ridiculous. They can go suck an egg.

[reACTIONary]

48. If it's a politically biased system...

...why was the original conviction overturned on appeal, and why was she allowed to leave the country? Their process is different but I haven't seen anything unjust or unreasonable about it.

It seems that they had a inquisitorial system (like France) but more recently moved incompletely to an adversarial system. Under an inquisitorial system, interrogation without a lawyer might not be considered unusual. In Canada there isn't a right to a lawyer during a custodial interrogation. This is not necessarily an injustice.

[billh58]

10. If it was that difficult

to deliberate the verdict, it sounds like there may have been reasonable doubt.

[Downtown Hound]

17. A better headline for this article:

"Italian judge fails to offer any reasonable explanation for Knox guilty verdict. He doesn't explain any details about physical evidence implicating her because there isn't any, and only gives vague half answers and also hints at the fact that he privately had doubts due to him suffering over the verdict."

[blackspade]

29. +1000

[olegramps]

21. "The Monster of Florence" by Douglas Preston and Mario Spezi

If a person takes out time to read this account of a series of murders in Florence you will quickly appreciate the absolute incompetence of the Italian legal system. Giuliano Mignini who took over the Knox case is absolutely batshit crazy. His prosecution of the Monster of Florence cases was beyond anything that could be imagined by a sane person. He believed they were all attributable to satanic rituals. Without a shred of evidence he held people for years in jail under a system that defies any sense of justice. When Preston and Spezi investigated the murders they were charged by this crackpot. Douglas Preston, was able to leave Italy, but has vowed to never return since he could come under investigation and arrest.

This is the same prosecutor who came up the bizarre theory of the involvement with the Amanda Knox and her boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito. Where did he come up with the concept of satanic ritual? Once again they could be traced to the blogs of Gabriella Carlizzi based on prayer conversations with Father Gabriele, a charismatic priest that has been dead since 1984. A review of the case is contained in the Afterword of Preston’s and Spezi’ book. It follows the same course as that of the investigation of the series of murders in Florence in which numerous people were charged with the crimes and held for months and even years before being cleared of the trumped up charges of Mignini’s corrupt imagination. The person, a hopeless drug addict, who committed crime confessed and is in prison. There not one shred of evidence to substantiate the his theory of a ritual satanic murder. Unfortunately, it doesn’t matter to the Italian judicial system. Knox has been tried in the Italian and British press with sensational unfounded accounts of sexual promiscuity. Rather than being dismissed by the legal system, it has been allowed to corrupted the trial. Don’t discount the fact there exists a deep resentment toward the United States by many citizens that is feed by outright jealousy and the citizens have little problem believing the worst.

[dhill926]

23. looks like Preston has a new book...

out on the subject. "The Forgotten Killer." Obviously won't deal with this recent verdict though. I'm sure an appendix will be added soon.

[mainer]

22. "Monster of Florence" author talks about Knox case

Doug Preston says she's innocent.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2008/02/08/crime-novelist-doug-preston-on-meredith-kerchers-murder/

[olegramps]

28. Thanks for additional information.

I was impressed by the assertion that much of the adverse public opinion is based on anti-American sentiment. I have traveled in Europe as has several of my friends. Two couples, one an American married to lady from Germany told me of their experience. The lady has been the United States for several year sand amazingly has very little accent. You would probably think she was from the South. The couples case is similar except the man is originally from Sweden. Both are conversant in several languages. They both experienced the anti-American sentiments held by some Europeans. They were overcharged for meals and drinks by servers who often talked with others how they had duped the dumb classless Americans. The servers were shocked when they were confronted by their "dumb Americans" about their duplicity. They called over the management and raised hell very vociferously and threatened to call the police for being overcharged. This wasn't just one or two instances, but happened numerous times. I know this happens from my own experiences and won't belabor the point.

[reACTIONary]

49. They were overcharged for meals and drinks ...

... but were they falsely accused of murder?

[olegramps]

53. Fortunately there were no murders at the time. So they got a free ride on that one.

[mainer]

31. Criminal defense attorney calls verdict "an outrage"

If the Kercher murder case was brought in the United States, it would be called "People vs. Rudy Guede." The evidence against Guede is strong. Guede, an apparently troubled young man who, at the time of Kercher’s murder, had just committed a series of break-ins, including one just days before the killing, where police caught him with an 11-inch knife (eerily similar to the weapon used to kill Kercher).

Guede’s fingerprints were found at the crime scene. There was evidence suggesting Guede broke into Kercher’s flat. He admitted to being at the scene on the night of the killing. His bloody palm print was found under Kercher’s body.

Guede’s shoe prints, fingerprints and DNA were at the crime scene. Guede’s DNA was found on Kercer, her clothing and even inside of her. After the killing, Guede hit the road to Germany and had to be extradited to stand trial -- his “flight” further evidence of his guilt.

By contrast, the case against Knox was weak. The prosecutor leveraged Knox’s supposed “confession” (obtained under dubious circumstances even when viewed in a light most favorable to the prosecution) and her physical appearance to whip the media into a frenzy, a fever pitch.

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2014/01/31/amanda-knox-guilty-verdict-outrage-darren-kavinoky

[mainer]

33. "Time" Journalist names two websites you CAN'T trust about this case

Journalist Nina Burleigh talks about who's behind them:

Website: "Perugia Murder File", operated by a Seattle housewife.

and

Website: "True Justice for Meredith Kercher", operated by Peter Quennell, a New jersey-based Englishman who has posted outright fabrications, and has threatened Burleigh's children.

If anyone defends their position by linking to these sites, you can't trust the information.

If you have taken a dive down into the Amanda Knox rabbit hole, you will discover a couple of persistent acronyms. The first is PMF. That would be the Perugia Murder File, operated by a Seattle housewife and former French translator who is dedicated to the guilt of Amanda Knox. The other acronym you will encounter is TJMK, which stands for “True Justice For Meredith Kercher”—the young British woman murdered in this case–and is run by a New Jersey-based Englishman who claims that at one time he consulted at the United Nations.


These sites host extremely active avatars, many proclaiming to be lawyers, forensic experts, criminologists, but who never reveal their true identities. Researching my 2011 book on the Knox case The Fatal Gift of Beauty, I met both moderators behind the acronymic websites. In 2009, I sat down with TJMK founder Peter Quennell, who has always claimed he started the site to make sure that no one forgot the victim. A stout, ruddy Englishman living in New Jersey, he had been holding out the carrot of introducing me to the elusive Kercher family. He seemed vastly knowledgeable and connected. At the time, I also believed that Amanda Knox could be, indeed, a Charles Manson behind a pretty face.

After a month in Italy doing reporting, however, I realized that some of the “facts” on Quennell’s website didn’t seem to be in the police record in Italy. I emailed him to ask where he had found out that Knox and Sollecito met police standing outside the murder house with a mop and bucket in hand. That damning incident was nowhere in the record, not even the prosecutor would confirm it, nor had Italy’s Polizia Scientifica ever tested such items, which would surely have offered up some useful DNA evidence, had they been used to clean blood.

Quennell then accused me by email of being on the Knox family payroll, informed me that his sources in Perugia had seen me consorting with Amanda’s mother (I had in fact met with her once, in a public place, by then) and eventually started writing about how he was going to “train his scope” on my apartment in Manhattan, and closing emails with “how are the kiddies?”

Read more: The Amanda Knox Haters Society: How They Learned to Hate Me Too | TIME.com http://world.time.com/2013/03/29/the-amanda-knox-haters-society-how-they-learned-to-hate-me-too/#ixzz2s67KsOmP

[pnwmom]

39. Thank you, mainer. One of the people in this very thread has repeatedly posted

OP's here with extensive quotes from these sites, after just joining DU in December.

Apparently they've decided to target us with their lies.

[mainer]

34. "truejustice.org" web guy stalks young women

Holy cow, this guy is a real freak. Many folks who believe Amanda Knox is guilty use "truejustice.org" as their source material. Maybe they should take a closer look at the sex-obsessed guy who runs that site:

Peter Quennell, has shown a disturbing obsession with Meredith Kercher. Not only does Quennell post many photos of Meredith on his website, he also writes creepy articles about Meredith, a complete stranger, imagining what she would be doing if she was still alive. Quennell also takes interest in several other young murdered women. Photos of Natalee Holloway, Elizabeth Mandala, Laci Peterson, and Sonia Marra are posted. Quennell limits his coverage to young women. No male victims are discussed.

Quennell's obsession with young women may seem harmless on his website but he took his obsession a step farther when he stalked a young woman looking to gain her trust and friendship. When she refused his advances, he attempted to extort money from her.

Quennell attempted to work his way into a young woman's life by luring her into a business deal in which he would create a promotional website to help build her career. She was new to the United States and Quennell's offer sounded pretty good in the beginning. Quennell proceeded to create a website telling the young woman that he was creating the site free of charge to show her the benefits of his promotional expertise. The site included many personal details of the young woman's life and she did not approve. The young woman was shocked at the website Quennell had created and also became concerned (and was warned by at least one friend) that his interest in her was not solely business-related. Quennell's emails were at times sexual in nature, repeatedly asking for her to take trips with him. He refused to cease communications with her when asked, and he appeared to her to be obsessed.

The young woman asked Quennell to take the website offline but he refused, demanding money to remove it. Quennell sent the young woman hundreds of emails encouraging (pressuring) her to work with him. This disturbing daily barrage of emails led the young woman to become afraid of Quennell. With the help of a private investigator she decided to go to the police. It was only after being contacted by detectives that Quennell finally removed the website ending this young woman's nightmare.

http://injusticeinperugia.blogspot.com/2011/06/disturbing-emails-expose-anti-amanda.html

[pnwmom]

37. Thank you for posting this. Yes, this persecutor of Amanda's is a sicko. And he's influenced

millions of people through the lies on his website.

[mainer]

40. I don't know why I got drawn into this!

except for the fact I'm a science-based person, and the science of that "trial" was ridiculous.

btw, there's a new book out by Douglas Preston and two former FBI agents, examining the case. Looks great:

http://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Killer-Murder-Meredith-Kercher-ebook/dp/B00I3QZ7G0/ref=sr_1_31?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1390997043&sr=1-31

[pnwmom]

42. Thanks! I got drawn into this after she was convicted. I'd been assuming she was guilty all along,

and I hoped I'd discover she really was guilty, so I could just continue not to pay any attention to her situation.

But the deeper I went down that rabbit hole, the more I realized I really was looking at an Alice-In-Wonderland style of "justice." And then Justice Hellman came along, and it seemed, for a while, that everything would be okay -- that maybe Italy's problem was just that everything took too long. And then came the high court decision, with its utter lack of logic and respect for science, and it was back down the rabbit hole.

And we're still there, in the darkness.

[bossy22]

43. Whether she is actually guilty or innocent-

no person should have to undergo this kind of "justice"- guilty, innocent, guilty, innocent- how many years has this women been on trial? If this had happened in the U.S.- MS. Knox would have already known her fate. The American Justice system has its flaws- many of them- but one of its greatest strength is its prohibition on double jeopardy.

As many people have stated, comparing the U.S. to Italian system is like comparing apples and oranges- I like to believe it is more like comparing a bruised apple in a refrigerator to an orange that is growing mold.

[reACTIONary]

50. I'm not very familiar with Italian justice system, but....

... our justice system allows situations to develop that would look to be, to an outside observer, "guilty, innocent, guilty, innocent". When an appeals court declares a mistrial, it often means the defendant is retried without it being considered a case of "double jeopardy".

[Democat]

51. The American justice system is perfect!

Only the Italian system is corrupt and biased.

In the Knox threads only. In other threads, the American system is horrible and people are thinking of leaving for the heaven of the EU.

[Gothmog]

55. The judge in this case is facing some problems

It appears that even under what passes for a justice system in Italy, it is not a good idea for a judge to give an interview to the press during a trial. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024437954