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Purveyor

(29,876 posts)
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 06:34 PM Feb 2014

Afghan President Karzai Tells U.S. To 'Stop Harassing’ Afghanistan

Source: Agence France-Presse

Afghan President Hamid Karzai on Thursday said Washington should respect his country’s judicial authority after the release of 65 alleged Taliban fighters triggered US condemnation.

“Afghanistan is a sovereign country. If the Afghan judicial authorities decide to release the prisoners, it is of no concern to the US and should be of no concern to the US,” Karzai told reporters in Ankara.

“I hope that the United States will stop harassing Afghanistan’s procedures and judicial authority”.

The release of the prisoners on Thursday dealt a new blow to he relationship between Kabul and Washington, already badly strained by Karzai’s refusal to sign an accord allowing some US troops to remain in Afghanistan after NATO’s withdrawal this year.

Read more: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/02/13/afghan-president-karzai-tells-u-s-to-stop-harassing-afghanistan/

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Afghan President Karzai Tells U.S. To 'Stop Harassing’ Afghanistan (Original Post) Purveyor Feb 2014 OP
Not even the minority the USgov supported, supports them anymore. Ash_F Feb 2014 #1
Tell that to the families of service members killed there... DonViejo Feb 2014 #4
Guess you are right, the Afghans are just ungrateful dogs. Ash_F Feb 2014 #10
yes, when a bad war turns unmistakably sour, time to shut the fuck up, 'cause dead soldiers. Warren Stupidity Feb 2014 #11
That takes some huevos, considering they had an agreement that the US TwilightGardener Feb 2014 #2
What about accepting reality? happyslug Feb 2014 #15
I wouldn't confuse Karzai's actions with what the Afghan people want. TwilightGardener Feb 2014 #17
The people have been polled by reputable polling agencies happyslug Feb 2014 #18
I'm not disagreeing with you, in terms of what we should have done or should do in TwilightGardener Feb 2014 #20
"Peace" is a term of art in Afghanistan happyslug Feb 2014 #22
Fine, we'll stop harassing you. Beacool Feb 2014 #3
The back ward religion and its leaders are the problem warrant46 Feb 2014 #7
Let's get the hell out!!! dicksmc3 Feb 2014 #5
just get out heaven05 Feb 2014 #6
Tsk, tsk ... 1000words Feb 2014 #8
We are obviously in the way of his hit list. Spitfire of ATJ Feb 2014 #9
ingrate father founding Feb 2014 #12
Pull out all the troops now. obxhead Feb 2014 #13
Eliminate Karzai Stainless Feb 2014 #14
Nice. Please take your advocacy for political assassination elsewhere. Comrade Grumpy Feb 2014 #16
We need to get the hell out of Afghanistan. Brigid Feb 2014 #19
Maybe a decade ago. jsr Feb 2014 #21

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
1. Not even the minority the USgov supported, supports them anymore.
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 06:37 PM
Feb 2014

Maybe they have realized what they had been given was not real support?

DonViejo

(60,536 posts)
4. Tell that to the families of service members killed there...
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 06:43 PM
Feb 2014

"We weren't giving Afghanistan real support! Sorry for you!"

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
11. yes, when a bad war turns unmistakably sour, time to shut the fuck up, 'cause dead soldiers.
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 09:33 AM
Feb 2014

Gosh, what a surprise, we learned nothing from Iraq, nothing from Vietnam, same bullshit, same uber patriotic nationalism, same shit different decade.

TwilightGardener

(46,416 posts)
2. That takes some huevos, considering they had an agreement that the US
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 06:41 PM
Feb 2014

would be allowed to have some say in who was released after the prisons were handed over. I think Karzai is desperate to make common cause with the Taliban by poking us in the eye. I wish we could walk away, but it's clear we're not going to.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
15. What about accepting reality?
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 12:44 PM
Feb 2014

For at least the last five years the majority of Afghans had wanted foreign soldiers OUT. This includes groups who OPPOSE the Taliban (Who tend to be Pashtun, like the present President of Afghanistan). The reason is simple, once the foreign soldiers are out, the native leaders will work out a compromise among themselves (Which they had done since before the days of Alexander the Great).

You saw this with the Taliban, who worked with everyone is Afghanistan except for the "Northern Alliance" (Mostly Tajik) who were receiving massive Russian support, and the Shiite Hazara who had Iranian support.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazara_people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tajik_people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Alliance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtun_people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtun_tribes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category ashtun_tribes

While the Taliban did they best to suppress the Hazara, the main source of attack by the Taliban were on the Northern Alliance.

From 1933 to 1973 Afghanistan was ruled by the King of Afghanistan, a man hand picked by Stalin to Rule Afghanistan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Zahir_Shah

I Loved the Wikipedia article on him, how he supported a rebellion in China while ignoring that the same rebellion was being supported by Stalin.

I bring the King up for his overthrow in 1973 started the long down hill race of Afghanistan. In my opinion he was overthrown by party hacks in Moscow because, unlike Stalin, they could not see how a Communist Government in Moscow can have a king as a vassal. Thus The king was replaced by his cousin in a more acceptable Republic, then in 1978 that Republic was overthrown by a Communist lead Government. The reason for the coup was the Republic of Afghanistan had unleashed a slow but steady rebellion that by the late 1970s was getting out of hand. The Coup made the situation worse, so the Russian Army had to move in in 1979. Thus Fighting in Afghanistan started in 1973 and except for the brief period of Taliban Rule, has been constant since 1973.

Most Afghans remember the Taliban rule as the only time of peace in their lives. You had unrest in the County before the 1979 Russian Invasion, the problems during the Russian Invasion, the unrest subsequent to the Russian withdraw in 1980, the period of the surviving Communist Afghan State, 1989-1992, and continued unrest as the "Victors" of the Afghan Civil War fought over the remains of Afghanistan till the Taliban took over in 1996 (The Taliban started to take over Phustan areas of Afghanistan in 1994).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_war_in_Afghanistan_(1989%E2%80%931992)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban

In 2002, as a result of 9/11 the US joined with the Northern Alliance (and unofficially Iran and the Hazara) to attack Afghanistan. The US used Massive Air Attacks and paratroopers while the Northern Alliance pushed South in an Armor Thrust (I have my own opinion where that Armor Division came from, i.e. Russia or Russian paid for from Tajikistan, but I can NOT find anything to support my suspicion or disprove them). The US Media concentrated on the US troops and Special Forces and ignored the Armor Thrust for it was NOT American Lead. My suspicion that the Armor Thrust was Russian was almost confirmed when it refused to go anywhere after it took Kabul. i.e. it refused to go anywhere where the advantages of tanks was NOT overwhelming i.e. where they may lose tanks for the Taliban was NOT going to try to stop the armor onslaught where all the armor had to do was maneuver around them. The Taliban wanted to take on the Armor in the mountains where such armor has two choices, attack head on, or retreat, the mountains restricted the ability to maneuver around defensive positions.

After the 2002 invasion, Afghan has been in constant conflict, thus the only time of peace since the 1970s was 1995-2002 when the Taliban ruled and its only armed enemy was restricted to the northern part of Afghanistan. The rest of Afghanistan was peaceful. We may not like the Taliban, but they showed they could produce peace, something no other government since the 1970s has been able to do.

Once you understand the history of Afghanistan since 1973, you come to accept why most Afghans want all foreign soldiers out of Afghanistan. Such a move will force not only the Taliban but the groups that support the present government of Afghanistan to work out a deal. Presently they can not for the Foreign soldiers are a wild card that each side has to take into consideration. As a wild card, no one can count of the Foreign soldiers following what the natives agree to, thus no agreement can be made. It is the US Soldiers and other foreign soldiers that are preventing a deal from being reached and this is accepted by the natives.

Now, the deal will not be a written deal, it will be like what the Taliban had with the Northern Alliance. Limited infiltration, do to the fact the Northern Alliance were NOT Pashtun for the Taliban had used Tribal nature of Pashtun to infiltrate and take over the rest of Afghanistan. In affect, accepting the facts on the ground as those facts are three months after the US withdraws or whenever the sides come to a situation where actual fighting gains nothing.

Right now, the Taliban sees that it can expand whenever the Foreign Soldiers leave, thus not willing to come to any deal. The present Afghan Government has reached the same conclusion, as has the minority Tajikis and Hazara tribes. Thus the foreign troops (including US Troops) that are the dis-stabilizing element in Afghanistan, not the Taliban, the Tajiks, the Hazara nor the present government of Afghanistan.

That is the POLITICAL situation in Afghanistan today. To have a stable Afghanistan, the US has to do what the Soviet Union did in 1979, withdraw and leave the Afghan people figure out how to achieve peace.

TwilightGardener

(46,416 posts)
17. I wouldn't confuse Karzai's actions with what the Afghan people want.
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 01:34 PM
Feb 2014

I don't think it's clear that they want US presence completely ended (probably out of fear), and I don't buy your argument that they see the Taliban as a force for peace and stability, either. If the Afghan people loved Taliban rule that much, we would have had a nearly impossible time occupying and influencing that country to the extent we did. The war would have been much bloodier, at the very least due to a lack of cooperation, especially from 2001-2009. I would like us to get completely out, because I don't think the (suspected) strategic reasons for us staying are worth the cost, but it's hard to draw conclusions about what ordinary Afghanis want at this point, based on news reports. History is well and good, but we are in a different era.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
18. The people have been polled by reputable polling agencies
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 02:05 PM
Feb 2014

And the polls have been consistent, they want the US out. As to how quickly the US took over Afghanistan, the Taliban made a decision that they could NOT defeat such an invasion so they headed for cover and waited to reemerge after the conquest. They did this several times during Russian offensives in the 1980s, thus an effective tactic as long as they have support of the people of Afghanistan (no support, they could NEVER have reemerged). The Taliban like the Viet Cong in Vietnam, knew they could NOT stop a US military push, and thus did not try. Instead they waited for the US to go onto other actions (i.e. Iraq) and then came out fighting.

Remember the Soviet Union went into Afghanistan almost the same way we did, with overwhelming power. The problems for the Soviets was AFTERWARD, not during the conquest of Afghanistan. The same with the US in Afghanistan, you can always find someone in any country to support your invasion (and often the same people no matter who is the invader, they want power more then they love they country).

The classic example is the US war with Mexico 1846-1848 and the French intervention 1862-1868. The US went into Mexico with overwhelming force, took Mexico City and had someone sign a peace treaty and pulled all US forces out of Mexico by the end of 1848. The French went in in 1862 and decided to stay and support the Government made up of mostly of the leadership of Mexico. Against this government, the Government that the French had attacked set itself up in the Interior and started a long and protracted Guerrilla campaign against the French. The French seeing the writing on the walls withdrew in 1866 and the Government they supported quickly collapsed.

Notice the difference, in the US invasion of Mexico the goals of the US was limited and once achieved the US had no intentions of staying in Mexico. Thus the US view the war was a victory and Mexico view it as a massive defeat. AS to the French invasion, the opposite is the view, Mexico view it as a Victory and the French view it as a defeat. Why the difference? The US never wanted to rule Mexico, and thus willing to withdraw quickly. The French wanted to rule Mexico through their Mexican allies and the Mexican People opposed such foreign rule (even some of the people who had invited the French in, defected to the other side once the French made it clear they did not want to leave).

The same situation is what is happening in Afghanistan. Many of the people of Afghanistan wanted the Taliban out, but that does NOT mean they wanted the US in. Thus you had support for the Invasion BUT NOT FOR THE FOREIGN TROOPS STAYING. The US should have done what Senator Pell told President Johnson in the 1960s as to Vietnam, declare Victory and pull out. If the Government of Vietnam fell afterward blame it on them for the US had "Won" the war against the Viet Cong.

All wars are Political. Why you go to war, how you wage war, and how you end a war are all political decisions (Read Clausewitz who makes this perfectly clear in his book "On War&quot . Clausewitz goes on and says the Political reasons for all three may be different (and often are). Clausewitz is one of the first authors to attack the concept of "Excessive Politics in Military operations" on the grounds all military operations are the result of politics. Clausewitz goes on and said when you hear someone say "Excessive Politics in Military operations", they are NOT complaining of actual politics in Military operations, but complaining of the POLITIC Policy that is leading to that Military operation.

It is clear that the Political situation in Afghanistan calls for a US pull out. Once the US forces are out, some sort of peace will occur in Afghanistan. It may be a peace like under the Taliban, but to quote Ben Franklin "A Bad Peace is better then a Good War" and right now Afghanistan prefers a "Bad Peace" under the Taliban, then a "Good War" under the present government of Afghanistan.

TwilightGardener

(46,416 posts)
20. I'm not disagreeing with you, in terms of what we should have done or should do in
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 02:29 PM
Feb 2014

Afghanistan. I don't believe we should have occupied it and kept a low-simmer presence for years--GWB should have gotten Bin Laden and AQ types, and then left. Months to a year or two, at most. No fighting the Taliban all over the map for years, that was pointless. No rebuilding. No setting up government. No democracy bullshit. No troop surge in 2009. Just short but painful punishment for harboring terrorists, with a promise to come back and do it again should the need arise. Of course, that wouldn't have made careers for colonels and generals and $$ for the various interests who saw opportunities there, but there you go. That said, again, I don't believe your assertion that peace will magically befall Afghanistan in our absence, any more than peace befell Iraq after we left. That's not an argument for staying, just a recognition that brutal oppression, corruption, Islamic/terror nuttery and government/societal collapse are all possibilities in our wake--and ordinary Afghans probably fear this. Things weren't great there before we showed up, and things probably will be worse after we leave.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
22. "Peace" is a term of art in Afghanistan
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 03:49 PM
Feb 2014

"Peace" in Afghanistan is no fighting where Women and Children regularly go, anything more has NEVER been the case in Afghanistan. Thus under the Taliban, you still had fighting with the Northern Alliance and the Harza, That is about the most you can hope for in Afghanistan and that is what the majority of Afghans want at the present time.

Beacool

(30,247 posts)
3. Fine, we'll stop harassing you.
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 06:41 PM
Feb 2014

We should just pick up and let them go back to Taliban rule. That really worked well for the country, particularly for girls and women.

warrant46

(2,205 posts)
7. The back ward religion and its leaders are the problem
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 09:58 PM
Feb 2014

They need too be dragged from the 11th Century. To maybe 1920 -- Good Luck with that.

Maybe gun control might work ? Nope, carrying a gun for a man in that pest hole is a religious right of birth.

As for the rights of women --- nothing will change for hundreds of years. Hell, just look at the catlick church

dicksmc3

(262 posts)
5. Let's get the hell out!!!
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 07:41 PM
Feb 2014

Karzai and his brother are two of the worst criminals in Afghanistan!! I just can't believe we are still dealing with these two assholes!!
Let's hope that Obama has seen enough to quit wasting time, treasure and Our most valuable resource--OUR TROOPS in this land of backwardsness!! It's time to get the hell out by the end of this year!! Then tell Karzai, GOOD RIDDANCE!!

 

father founding

(619 posts)
12. ingrate
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 11:04 AM
Feb 2014

Hamid Karzai's future is of no concern to the U.S. either, so lets get the hell out of that hellhole.

 

obxhead

(8,434 posts)
13. Pull out all the troops now.
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 11:14 AM
Feb 2014

End all funding.

We never should have gone in, much less stayed for more than a decade.

Stainless

(718 posts)
14. Eliminate Karzai
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 11:41 AM
Feb 2014

The USA has done it many times before in Iran, Chile, Vietnam etc.. This two-faced rat should never have been allowed to function for as long as he has. Make it look like one of his warlords is responsible. When he's gone pull all the troops out and use technology and drones to keep the Taliban in line.

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