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alp227

(32,018 posts)
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:43 AM Feb 2014

Ukraine is not caught in East-West battle, says US

Source: BBC

US Secretary of State John Kerry has said Ukraine is not caught in a battle between East and West.

Mr Kerry said it was not a zero-sum game and called for all nations to work together to bring stability to Ukraine.

The new administration in Kiev is facing continuing opposition from Ukraine's Russian-speaking regions.

Russia, which backed ousted President Viktor Yanukovych, has warned other states against seeking "unilateral advantages" in Ukraine.

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26347042

19 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Ukraine is not caught in East-West battle, says US (Original Post) alp227 Feb 2014 OP
Oh hell no..."In the Crimean port city Sevastopol on Tuesday, some replaced the Ukrainian flag on okaawhatever Feb 2014 #1
Crimea's pretty much always regarded itself as Russian Scootaloo Feb 2014 #3
Well, from what I read Yanukovych campaigned on not renewing the lease on the naval base. I believe okaawhatever Feb 2014 #4
The very first thing the new Ukrainian parliament did was repress the Russian minority. Xithras Feb 2014 #8
Oh please, the Russians tried on and off for 150 years to do away with the Ukranian language. okaawhatever Feb 2014 #12
You don't get it. Xithras Feb 2014 #13
No, the Russian speaking population is not oppressed. They have schools, signs and so on in their okaawhatever Feb 2014 #14
A Ukrainian political cartoon Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2014 #16
Yep, that about sizes it up. (pun intended) nt okaawhatever Feb 2014 #17
You seem to miss one important point here. Xithras Feb 2014 #18
The "traditional Ukraine" map is pretty pointless. Igel Feb 2014 #19
It's hard to blame the "Russian-speaking regions" for opposing . . . another_liberal Feb 2014 #2
John Kerry is a public embarassment Demeter Feb 2014 #5
Kerry is an honorable man who is working on behalf of our nation davidpdx Feb 2014 #6
Agreed. Some people are really showing their colors on this issue. nt okaawhatever Feb 2014 #15
Which Rocky movie is it ? “This is not Rocky IV,” he said. “Believe me. We don’t see it that way.” jakeXT Feb 2014 #7
Infighting Poses Hurdle to Formation of New Coalition in Ukraine. elleng Feb 2014 #9
Not sure when the NY Times did that story, but a new government has been announced today. pampango Feb 2014 #10
Doesn't sound firm to me: elleng Feb 2014 #11

okaawhatever

(9,461 posts)
1. Oh hell no..."In the Crimean port city Sevastopol on Tuesday, some replaced the Ukrainian flag on
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:55 AM
Feb 2014

local government building with a Russian flag."

Not supporting the interim President and raising the flag of another country are two verrryyy different things. on a government building, no less? I consider that an act of sedition.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
3. Crimea's pretty much always regarded itself as Russian
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 03:08 AM
Feb 2014

At least, when it doesn't consider itself Tartar.

Back in the day Crimea was a "gift" from Russia to Ukraine... back when the USSR owned both anyway. when Ukraine gained independence, Crimea came with... and neither the Russians nor the Crimeans have been too hot on that idea since.

Post-imperialist politics; Not just for Africa anymore!

okaawhatever

(9,461 posts)
4. Well, from what I read Yanukovych campaigned on not renewing the lease on the naval base. I believe
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 03:17 AM
Feb 2014

he even said he would like to see a referendum on the matter. Within a couple of months of taking office he signed a new 25 year lease, even (after changing the constitution to allow foreigners to own land)the current lease didn't expire for another 7 years. This was done to get lower gas prices from Russia, which really weren't that low.

Also, when the deal with China was inked for the farmland (after changing the constitution to allow foreigners to own land) China agreed to build a highway in Crimea and a bridge crossing the strait of Kerch to connect to Russia. Although that is an industrial center, why in the hell are they trading farmland in Ukraine proper for stuff that benefits Crimea and Russia? Hint: Yanukovych was more concerned with Russia and Putin than he was Ukraine.

Xithras

(16,191 posts)
8. The very first thing the new Ukrainian parliament did was repress the Russian minority.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 04:09 PM
Feb 2014

One of their very first acts was to pass a law stripping the Russian and Tatar minorities of language rights, enforcing the ethic Ukrainian language on peoples who have never had to speak it, and in areas that have never been Ukrainian.

Crimea belonged to the Ottoman Empire and then the Russians. Historically, it's never been Ukrainian. 70% of its population is Russian and Tatar. In the 1950's the Soviet Union, which controlled both Crimea and Ukraine, put the Crimean peninsula under the authority of Ukraine in an internal reorganization. That marked the first time in history that the Ukrainians had controlled Crimea.

Crimea is only part of Ukraine today because the Crimean's and the Ukrainians struck a deal giving them almost total autonomy after the fall of the Soviet Union. One of the VERY FIRST ACTS of the new Ukrainian government a few days ago was to ban the use of the Crimean languages in government, stripping them of minority rights.

I really won't be shocked if the Crimean's give Kiev the middle finger and declare their independence in the next few weeks.

okaawhatever

(9,461 posts)
12. Oh please, the Russians tried on and off for 150 years to do away with the Ukranian language.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 05:00 PM
Feb 2014

The Russian government promoted the spread of the Russian language among the native Ukrainian population by actively refusing to acknowledge the existence of the Ukrainian language. At the same time, most Ukrainian literature was printed in Moscow and Saint Petersburg.

Alarmed by the threat of Ukrainian separatism influenced by recent demands of Polish nationalists, the Russian Minister of Internal Affairs Pyotr Valuev in 1863 issued a secret decree that banned the publication of religious texts and educational texts written in the Ukrainian language[9] as non-grammatical, but allowing all other texts, including fiction. This ban was expanded by Tsar Alexander II who issued the Ems Ukaz in 1876 (which lapsed in 1905). All Ukrainian language books and song lyrics were banned, as was the importation of such works. Furthermore, Ukrainian-language public performances, plays, and lectures were forbidden.[10] In 1881, the decree was amended to allow the publishing of lyrics and dictionaries, and the performances of some plays in the Ukrainian language with local officials' approval. Ukrainian-only troupes were, however, forbidden. Approximately 9% of population spoke Russian at the time of the Russian Census of 1897.

Soviet policy towards the Ukrainian language changed abruptly in late 1932 and early 1933, with the termination of the policy of Ukrainianization. In December 1932, the regional party cells received a telegram signed by V. Molotov and Stalin with an order to immediately reverse the Ukrainianization policies. The telegram condemned Ukrainianization as ill-considered and harmful and demanded to "immediately halt Ukrainianization in raions (districts), switch all Ukrainianized newspapers, books and publications into Russian and prepare by autumn of 1933 for the switching of schools and instruction into Russian"

Major repression started in 1929–30, when a large group of Ukrainian intelligentsia was arrested and most were executed. In Ukrainian history, this group is often referred to as "Executed Renaissance" (Ukrainian: розстріляне відродження . "Ukrainian bourgeois nationalism" was declared to be the primary problem in Ukraine.[citation needed] The terror peaked in 1933, four to five years before the Soviet-wide "Great Purge", which, for Ukraine, was a second blow. The vast majority of leading scholars and cultural leaders of Ukraine were liquidated, as were the "Ukrainianized" and "Ukrainianizing" portions of the Communist party. Soviet Ukraine's autonomy was completely destroyed by the late 1930s

As a result of legislation entitled the 'Bill on the principles of the state language policy", which was adopted by the Verkhovna Rada in August in 2012, languages spoken by at least 10% of an oblast's population were made possible to be elevated to the status of 'regional language'. Whilst Ukrainian remained the country's only 'official' language nationwide, other languages, dependent on their adoption by oblast authorities, became accepted mediums of communication in education, local government of. fices, courts and official correspondence.[6] On 23 February 2014, the law on regional languages was abolished, making Ukrainian the sole state language at all levels.

The law was so controversial that fist fights erupted in Parliament. It is widely thought to be unconstitutional. The bill also failed to obtain the support from the specialized institutions of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine: Linguistics Institute, Institute of the Ukrainian Language, Institute of political and ethno-national researches, Shevchenko Institute of Literature, Institute of State and Law, Ukrainian linguistic-informational Fund, Philology Institute of Kiev University, Academy of Sciences of the High School of Ukraine.
[13]

You claim the repeal of the bill "stripping the Russian and Tatar minorities of language rights, enforcing the ethic Ukrainian language on peoples who have never had to speak it, and in areas that have never been Ukrainian." however, all the repeal of the bill did was return the language situation back to where it was since 1989. It doesn't force anyone to do anything. Also, the bill that permitted the Russian language to become the language of the local governments was only in place since August of 2012. Additionally, when the Russian language bill was passed this statement was made. Chairmen of the Supreme Council of Crimea Volodomyr Konstantinov stated in March 2013 that the August 2012 law had changed nothing in Crimea.[31]

So in your analysis, even though Crimea itself said the bill didn't change anything you think the repeal of the bill " stripping the Russian and Tatar minorities of language rights, enforcing the ethic Ukrainian language on peoples who have never had to speak it." You are waayy off base.

Also, Crimea is already an autonomous republic of Ukraine. And NO THE REPEAL OF THE LANGUAGE BILL PASSED IN 2012 DOES NOT FORCE ANY CRIMEAN TO USE ANY LANGUAGE. Stop believing the Putin propaganda machine.

Xithras

(16,191 posts)
13. You don't get it.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 06:07 PM
Feb 2014

Last edited Wed Feb 26, 2014, 06:45 PM - Edit history (1)

The law was "only" passed in 2012 because the ethnic minorities had to fight Ukrainian racism and nationalism for YEARS to get it passed. The repeal was a direct slap in the face to those who were fighting for official recognition of Ukraine's ethnic minorities and has already been condemned by many European leaders.

Gay marriage has only been legal in some American states for a handful of years. If those states repealed those laws today, could we tell the gays not to complain because it "only returned the language back to where it was"? The language was changed for a REASON.

The real problem in Ukraine is that the current Ukrainian borders are largely a Russian invention. Look at the map below. The area shaded in white includes the original borders of Ukraine and the areas in which ethnic Ukrainians live. The white line shows the borders of modern Ukraine, which were drawn by the Russian Empire and Soviet Union. These borders include many areas that are not traditionally or ethnically Ukrainian and in which the Ukrainian language isn't widely used. Since 1989 the Ukrainian government has tried to make these areas more Ukrainian by limiting the public use of those areas native languages with an eye towards assimilation. The imposition of the Ukrainian language as a national language in 1989 was right wing nationalistic move that NOBODY should be supporting. Kiev has a duty to recognize their native ethnic minorities, to treat their native languages and traditions with respect, and to end any practices that try to "Ukrainianize" those people against their wills.

Traditional Ukraine:


Ukraine in 1918 before the Soviet's took it over:

okaawhatever

(9,461 posts)
14. No, the Russian speaking population is not oppressed. They have schools, signs and so on in their
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 06:46 PM
Feb 2014

native language. What the minority Russian speakers want is to force Russian on the Ukrainians. In Donetsk they passed a law that no new Ukrainian schools would be built. Doesn't sound much like oppression to me.

The UK, Germany, EU and US have all said that the Russian speaking Ukrainians would have to be protected in the new government. That is not in question, but to state that the Russian speaking Ukrainians are being persecuted is a joke. They are allowed to use the language, teach it in schools, it's in the print media and tv. There isn't a law stopping them from using or teaching the Russian language. UNLIKE THE FORMER RUSSIAN POLICIES TOWARD UKRAINE.

Xithras

(16,191 posts)
18. You seem to miss one important point here.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 07:55 PM
Feb 2014
What the minority Russian speakers want is to force Russian on the Ukrainians.

Legally speaking, the Russian speakers ARE Ukrainian. They are Ukrainian citizens living in areas that were not traditionally parts of Ukraine, and are simply speaking their NATIVE languages. Ukraine is naturally a multilingual society because its borders span regions that natively speak more than one language. It's not oppressing ANYONE to say that they want to conduct business in their native languages, in their native areas. It IS oppression for the Ukrainian government to force the Ukrainian language on people who live in areas that traditionally spoke other languages. Even if those other languages happen to be Russian.

The fact that the ethnic Russian-Ukrainians aren't being forced to speak Ukrainian is nice, but by limiting "official" and government communication to only the Ukrainian language (even in areas where 70+% of the population are Russian speakers), you're relegating that language to second-class status. You're also isolating the people who speak those languages from government communications, and are effectively forcing them to learn the alternate language just to participate in society.

UNLIKE THE FORMER RUSSIAN POLICIES TOWARD UKRAINE.
You seem to be stuck on the irrelevant fact. Punishing ethnic minorities for the actions of a foreign government that existed before most of them were born is a fundamentally racist position. The fact that the Russian government once oppressed the Ukrainian people doesn't grant the Ukrainian government any right to mistreat ethnic Russians living in ethnically Russian areas that happen to fall within Ukraine's current borders. The abuses of the past do not forgive the abuses of the present.

Igel

(35,300 posts)
19. The "traditional Ukraine" map is pretty pointless.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 10:14 PM
Feb 2014

Volhynia and Galicia have been pretty thoroughly Ukrainized for the last 500-600 years. Much of the east had been Ukrainian speaking until the tsars pushed for greater industrialization in the late 1800s. This kind of thinking has the same problem as, "Well, who can blame them for persecuting Russian speakers after what happened to the Ukrainian speakers under the Russians?" History justifies neither. What can justify that kind of attitude is preservation of the indigenous language--which, in this case, isn't Russian.

Note that there are some pretty hefty isoglosses between eastern and western Ukrainian and which date back quite a few centuries. Under the Soviets, there was "Ukrainian," and the official language was heavily eastern. Even Tito was less heavy handed: standard Serbian may have been ekavski/stokavski, but at least Croatian was clearly ijekavski and was a parallel, de jure and de facto standard (even if Cakavian and Kajkavian were de-emphasized).

Part of the western territory that isn't "pure" Ukrainian is Ruthenian. Nobody's keen on their language rights except the Russians, who only "came to Jesus" when Ukraine broke away from the USSR. That's a very Russian attitude--we support your inalienable rights only when they hurt those we want weakened, otherwise you ain't go no rights. Before that Rusyn was justed simply a dialect of Ukrainian except by some linguists who were anxious to have as many Slavic languages as possible (linguists are like botanists--they fall into "splitters" and "lumpers&quot . Actually, a number of Slavists don't think Rusyn is a language; they split it even further, with Lemko, Vojvodina, and others areas having distinct "languages." Then again, they tend to think of Bosnian and Montenegran as distinct languages. (At the other extreme I've heard people insist Slovak and Czech are the same language.)

The Rusyns got the same treatment before WWII: They were happy to be non-Ukrainian Czechoslovaks because they were worried about being submerged. The Sorbs had the same attitude towards the Czechs after WWII, so they opted for being Germans.

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
2. It's hard to blame the "Russian-speaking regions" for opposing . . .
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 03:02 AM
Feb 2014

To be fair, it's hard to blame the "Russian-speaking regions" for opposing the so-called "new administration in Kiev" when one of the first things it did on its first day after seizing power was to pass an act which declared Russian, "No longer an official language of Ukraine." That despite the fact that nearly a third of Ukrainians are ethnic Russians who speak Russian as their first language.

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140226/187893079.html

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
6. Kerry is an honorable man who is working on behalf of our nation
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 08:16 AM
Feb 2014

The true disgrace is the person who would make such a comment.

elleng

(130,865 posts)
9. Infighting Poses Hurdle to Formation of New Coalition in Ukraine.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 04:20 PM
Feb 2014

Struggling to form a new majority coalition in Parliament, and under excruciating pressure because of a looming economic calamity, Ukrainian lawmakers decided Tuesday to delay for two days the naming of an acting prime minister and a provisional government.

The delay underscored the extreme difficulty that lawmakers face in rebuilding the collapsed government left behind when President Viktor F. Yanukovych fled Kiev on Saturday and was removed from power in a vote supported by some members of his own party.

The three main opposition parties, which share little in common politically, have been in fierce negotiations, not just among themselves, but also with civic activists and other groups representing the many constituencies involved in Ukraine’s three months of uprising.

A main reason for the delay was to allow officials to meet with representatives of civic groups and to present their proposed government on Wednesday in Independence Square, the main site of mass protests, which is known in Ukrainian as Maidan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/26/world/europe/ukraine.html?hpw&rref=world

pampango

(24,692 posts)
10. Not sure when the NY Times did that story, but a new government has been announced today.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 04:35 PM
Feb 2014
Ukraine crisis: New government revealed at Kiev's protest camp



Ukraine's new interim government has been presented at Kiev's main protest camp, the Maidan, following last week's ousting of President Viktor Yanukovych.

Arseniy Yatsenyuk has been nominated to become prime minister. The cabinet - due to be voted by MPs on Thursday - includes a number of Maidan activists.

It is facing daunting challenges, including fixing Ukraine's struggling economy which faces default.

Meanwhile, Mr Yanukovych has been put on the international wanted list. The fugitive president - whose whereabouts are unclear - is accused of being behind last week's deaths of more than 100 protesters at the hands of riot police at and around the Maidan.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26359150

elleng

(130,865 posts)
11. Doesn't sound firm to me:
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 04:42 PM
Feb 2014

Ukraine's new interim government has been presented at Kiev's main protest camp, the Maidan, following last week's ousting of President Viktor Yanukovych.

Arseniy Yatsenyuk has been nominated to become prime minister. The cabinet - due to be voted by MPs on Thursday - includes a number of Maidan activists.

'My' story, dated 2/25: Ukrainian lawmakers decided Tuesday to delay for two days the naming of an acting prime minister and a provisional government.

Obviously everything's in flux.

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