Russia Admits That It Has Moved Troops In Ukraine

[Purveyor]

Source: Telegraph UK

By Roland Oliphant, in Crimea and Harriet Alexander
4:14PM GMT 28 Feb 2014

Russian troops have moved into Crimea in what Moscow is calling a mission to “protect Black Sea Fleet’s positions” but which the Ukrainian government has denounced as an “armed intervention.”

The Russian foreign ministry said Friday that it had informed the Ukrainian government that armoured units from the Black Sea Fleet base near Sevastopol had entered Crimea in order to protect fleet positions.

“The Ukrainian side was also passed a note regarding the movement of armoured vehicles of the Russian Black Sea Fleet in Crimea, which is happening in full accordance with the foundation Russian-Ukrainian agreement on the Black Sea Fleet,” the ministry said in a statement posted on its website on Friday afternoon.

In the same note the Russian foreign ministry said it had declined a Ukrainian request for “bilateral consultations” on events in Crimea because they are “the result of recent internal political processes in Ukraine.”

Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10668357/Russia-admits-that-it-has-moved-troops-in-Ukraine.html

---

Ukraine Says Russia Tries To Seize Airports, Base

By IVAN SEKRETAREV
Associated Press

SIMFEROPOL, Ukraine (AP) -- Ukraine accused Russia of a "military invasion and occupation" on Friday, saying Russian troops have taken up positions around a coast guard base and two airports on its strategic Crimea peninsula.

Russia kept silent on those accusations but confirmed that armored vehicles from its Black Sea Fleet were moving around Crimea for "security" reasons as the crisis deepened between two of Europe's largest countries.

Any Russian military incursion in Crimea would dramatically raise the stakes in Ukraine's conflict, which saw pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovych flee last weekend after three months of anti-government protests. Yanukovych vowed Friday at a news conference in Russia to "keep fighting for the future of Ukraine," though he called any military action "unacceptable."

Moscow has vowed to protect Russian-speaking Ukrainians in Crimea, where it has a major naval base, and Ukraine and the West have warned Russia to stay away. Russia did not confirm its troops were involved in Friday's action in Crimea, which would be a major escalation.

more...

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_UKRAINE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-02-28-13-16-17

[Bill76]

1. Let's just hope the US stays out of this.

No matter what it is, we always make it worse.

[PatrynXX]

11. bit late for that

had to have a history lesson run off to me from people in Russia who disagree with Putin. Those borders cannot be moved it'll start WWIII which is how the last World war Started. Someone needs to back off now or it'll be WWIII

[LanternWaste]

28. The same was said for the Georgian-Russian conflict in 2008...

The same was said for the Georgian-Russian conflict in 2008, but as it turned out the prophecies of great wars and American intervention were little more than additional lyrics by Madame Marie.

[EX500rider]

40. Yeah but mostly cause little Georgia had to fold like a house of cards..

....the Ukraine has 10 times the population and

Manpower fit for military service:
males age 16-49: 6,893,551
females age 16-49: 8,792,504 (2010 est.)

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/up.html

[Scootaloo]

76. Actually because the US doesn't want to get involved with Russia

That, and Georgia deliberately picked that fight in the hopes that the US WOULD jump in and save its ass.

Oops.

[RKP5637]

29. That's my fear too, incidents always trigger a little larger one, on and on. I certainly don't

claim to be a historian, but from what I recall most major wars have been started by incidents and bruised egos. Putin, to me at least, would like to have the old Russia back with him as Emperor.

[AverageJoe90]

72. That may be true to an extent, but remember, the end of WWII changed everything.

Too many people, TBH, seem to have assumed that the world basically defaulted back to a WWI-era state when the Cold War ended.....which isn't true.

[AverageJoe90]

67. "or it'll be WWIII" No it won't, not without some sort of Infowarsesque conspiracy anyway.

For all of Putin's wrongs, we can at least admit that he's not Hitler, am I right? He wouldn't be as mad as to start launch nukes at the U.S., the world's number one power. Hitler might have done that, but I just can't see Putin going that far, even if it's partly because he knows Russia would be knocked down so hard that they couldn't get up again.

[Warren Stupidity]

2. Russia was not going to let Crimea slip away,

people at all familiar with the history of the region knew that. Kerry's blustering was just that. If Russia decides to split Ukraine in two, that is what will happen.

[1000words]

4. Nope. It was only a matter of time.

The U.S. would do the same thing

[Igel]

59. And it would be met with condemnation from a number

of quarters on right and left.

Which is reasonable. Here's it's met with "we don't want to get involved" and "good!"

[yurbud]

93. so do you want to send in troops or just bomb Russia?

[PatrynXX]

12. If that does happen

this is what was basically told to me. it'll start WWIII. because thats how WWII started. changing of borders. Changing borders to Russia. Now am I wrong have no idea. But thats what was told to me.

[Warren Stupidity]

16. Russia won't change any borders, Ukraine will split in two.

And even if it did we are not going to start a land war with Russia.

[totodeinhere]

33. It will not start WWIII. Neither Obama nor Putin are that stupid.

This is not 1939.

[PFunk]

44. Obama no. Putin, im not so sure.

To him it's about re-establishing Russian respect here and sees this as a way of showing that they can't be pushed around by the rest. And if it wants that oil in the non-Crimea part of Ukraine (which will also determine if a break up is possible).

And then their are our RW neocons....

[totodeinhere]

60. It's times like these that make me thank my lucky stars that Barack Obama,

with all his faults, is sitting in the Oval Office right now rather than John McCain or Mitt Romney. I don't think that the president will allow the RW to drag us into a war over this.

[AverageJoe90]

68. Yeah. Hell, even Dim Son didn't get to foul up the Georgia conflict.

And he was perhaps the most foolish Prez we ever had, outside of Andy Jackson and Reagan. Obama is a lot more levelheaded, and savvy to boot.

[amandabeech]

75. Actually, blood and guts McCain was on Wolf Blitzer's CNN show

today pushing for non-military sanctions.

It was extremely shocking to hear. I thought for sure that McCain would be calling for all assistance including boots on the ground.

Barbara Star, CNN's long-time Pentagon correspondent, reported that the military was not looking to get involved in Crimea.

Maybe Gramps's buddies in the military had already told him that taking on Putin militarily was not something that they were willing to do.

[PFunk]

82. Well it looks like I might be wrong. Putin might be willing to go there.

Welcome to the new Cold War's restart (and for Putin Afghanistan 2.0)

[independentpiney]

92. Exactly right

Incorporating Crimea into the Ukraine SSR in the 1950's was a major mistake in hindsight.

[brooklynite]

3. FREEDOM LOVING troops...

...protecting the Ukrainian people from the US-backed 1%er corporatist fascists, right?

[Warren Stupidity]

18. Well, here is the thing. The Ukranian ethnic population in the West basically

hates the Russian ethnic population in the East, and vice versa. Once you grasp that reality a more constructive appreciation of the situation is possible. That plus Russia is not going to cede control of its strategically vital naval bases.

[go west young man]

53. Quit posting such sensible posts....

your detracting from peoples preconceived nationalistic Armageddon notions.

[Chan790]

74. "Russia is not going to cede control of its strategically vital naval bases."

You say that like you're unaware of how Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine became nations with nuclear weapons. (All of which were subsequently accounted for and destroyed, thankfully.)

If they were willing to walk away and leave unguarded WMDs (nearly 7,000 altogether, comprising several thousand megatons), what makes you think they wouldn't leave the gates unlocked and walk away from naval bases? Even strategically-vital ones?

They don't have a good track record on this.

[pampango]

80. Just because your country has a military base in another country does not give you

the right to refuse to "control of its strategically vital naval bases". The countries sign a "lease agreement" that allows the base to exist. It is not a "sale agreement" which would transfer ownership and sovereignty of the territory.

[Chan790]

81. My point is that the Russians have a history of leaving the dangerous toys lying around.

Haphazardly. Without regard of consequences to themselves or anybody else.

I generally agree with you regarding Russian bases in Ukraine and suspect this "movement to protect their bases" is little more than maneuvering to retake the entire Ukraine by force.

[Adrahil]

84. Yeah, Putin wasn't President then.

At the time, Russia's leadership was interested in dismantling empire. Putin is interested in rebuilding it. There is no way, that Russia gives up it's major warm-water port. They were perfectly willing to simply have Ukraine under their boot heel. But since Ukraine decided it doesn't LIKE that boot heel, they are perfectly willing to take what they want.

The question is, will they stop in Crimea and the eastern provinces, or will they try to move deeper into Ukraine?

[tabasco]

89. Exactly.

Putin is dangerous.

[dipsydoodle]

5. At least this mornings claim was toned down

The chief of Ukraine's security council, Andriy Parubiy, seemed to strike a less strident tone later in the day, saying gunmen had tried to "seize" the airports in the Crimean cities of Simferopol and Sevastopol but insisting in comments to the Interfax news agency that "the airports are controlled by the law enforcement bodies of Ukraine." http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_UKRAINE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-02-28-13-16-17 original claim was Russian military.

Lots of 'copters in the air on Sky news live in the UK on tv news. You will also find that Simferopol airport was not allowing flights from Kiev.

[Adrahil]

85. changed your tune yet? NT

[dipsydoodle]

86. Nope

Its still Segue in C.

[Adrahil]

87. Points for humor...

But this is now CLEARLY a Russian incursion, I think you'd have to admit.

[dipsydoodle]

90. Yes but then

I'm not actually bothered. Long ways to go yet before they match the antics of the US in Irag.

[Adrahil]

91. I knew you'd find a way to make this all about how ebil the US is.... NT

[another_liberal]

6. Anyone who has seen the video . . .

The Russians had no choice but to admit those were their troops. Anyone who has seen the video of them in action must have been pretty certain that those were not a civilian militia. They had identical equipment (apparently to the last detail). They arrived and left in Russian Army vehicles without license plates and they were disciplined and organized like no mere civilian militia could have been.

[pampango]

7. Russia would not intervene militarily in a foreign country without approval from the UN, would they?

That would seem to not be consistent with their previous policy.

[another_liberal]

9. Gosh, I hope not . . .

That would be acting like us!

[okaawhatever]

8. This is absolute bullcrap:

“The Ukrainian side was also passed a note regarding the movement of armoured vehicles of the Russian Black Sea Fleet in Crimea, which is happening in full accordance with the foundation Russian-Ukrainian agreement on the Black Sea Fleet,”

They will not be able to make the case that their fleets were under attack. This is an invasion, plain and simple. It's Russia taking over Crimea to make sure it doesn't lose it's precious naval base and they're using the local Russians to get their way.

Putin will have a hard time declaring that Ukraine wasn't protecting it's 15k sailors when Russia sent three goodwill ambassadors to the area to play up Russia sentiment. All three Olympians, Irina Rodnina, the figure skater who tweeted the hateful Obama pic, some boxer and a third one. If it were at all dangerous I doubt he'd drop three of Russia's most influential sports figures into the middle of it.

[another_liberal]

13. Oh, if only Ronald Reagan were still President . . . right?

(sigh)

[okaawhatever]

15. No, if only Putin would stop trying to recreate the USSR. Russia's security agreement with the

Sevastopol base only allows it to do what it's doing now if it's under attack. I know that you only read pro-Putin propaganda, and are Vlad's biggest cheerleader here at DU, but there's a legal and binding agreement and Russia is violating it.

I will say this once again, perhaps you should consider reputable news sources. Heck, the naval base agreement may even be online.

[another_liberal]

19. You know that, do you?

You clearly know nothing of the sort. You sound like a John Birch Society retread with all of that Russia-baiting jingoistic nonsense (I mean really man, listen to yourself for christsake).

[dawn frenzy adams]

54. You've got to be kidding?

This is the dream of the old Neocons who have been a disaster for American foreign policy. The Wolfowitz Doctrine written in 1992 was about America taking advantage of the fall of the Soviet Union to flex its imperialistic powers. And of course, it's about markets too. These Neocon Kooks were kept at bay until they got a president stupid enough to implement their polices. That of course would be George W. Bush. Wolfowitz has been around since Nixon. However, it was Dubya that made this chicken-hawk, Assistant Secretary of the Defense. As Chalmers Johnson, the author of Sorrows of Empire, alluded in a 2003 video, any president that follows George W. Bush will not be able to control the intelligence services and the Pentagon. These people have erected a government of their own. In other words, Bush open the gates wide- and let the barbarians in.


The N Y Times: March 8, 1992

The Wolfowitz Doctrine:

Excerpt:


Our first objective is to prevent the reemergence of a new rival, either on the territory of the former Soviet Union or elsewhere, that poses a threat on the order of that posed formerly by the Soviet Union. This is a dominant consideration underlying the new regional defense strategy and requires that we endeavor to prevent any hostile power from dominating a region whose resources would, under consolidated control, be sufficient to generate global power. These regions include Western Europe, East Asia, the territory of the former Soviet Union, and Southwest Asia.

Here's another excerpt:

Former Soviet Union

The former Soviet state achieved global reach and power by consolidating control over the resources in the territory of the former U.S.S.R. The best means of assuring that no hostile power is able to consolidate control over the resources within the former Soviet Union to support its successor states (especially Russia and Ukraine) in their efforts to become peaceful democracies with market-based economies. A democratic partnership with Russia and the other republics would be the best possible outcome for the United States. At the same time, we must also hedge against the possibility that democracy will fail, with the potential that an authoritarian regime bent on regenerating aggressive military power could emerge in Russia, or that similar regimes in other successor republics could lead to spreading conflict within the former U.S.S.R. or Eastern Europe.

• • •

For the immediate future, key U.S. concerns will be the ability of Russia and the other republics to demilitarize their societies, convert their military industries to civilian production, eliminate or, in the case of Russia, radically reduce their nuclear weapons inventory, maintain firm command and control over nuclear weapons, and prevent leakage of advanced military technology and expertise to other countries.

Continue

http://work.colum.edu/~amiller/wolfowitz1992.htm

-------

I don't think Obama will fall for it. But if McCain or Romney had won, we would be in the throes of WW3

[Xithras]

10. Wow, I didn't think Putin would be quite so bold.

I was looking for a repeat of Abkhazia. I expected the local Russian's to rebel, for Ukraine to crack down on them, and then for Russia to invade to "protect the local population". They've used that playbook more than once.

Simply ordering his soldiers into Crimea without any provocation or cover is bold, even for Putin. More importantly, he may have just undermined any chance the Crimean's may have had to secede legitimately. If the Crimean's had declared independence on their own, there would have been some semblance of self-determination at work. Now any declaration of independence will just be seen as Putin's scheming.

[another_liberal]

14. To be accurate . . .

These troops were already in the Crimea, as security for the naval base at Sevastopol. They weren't exactly flown in from Moscow over night, like in the movies.

[Xithras]

17. I know.

Russia has tens of thousands of soldiers at the Black Sea base. It could probably take Crimea over entirely without sending in a single soldier from Russia itself.

[another_liberal]

20. Exactly.

They did what they did, which was clearly bad enough, but to call this an "Invasion of the Crimea" is simply War Mongering. Frankly, it sounds really weird on a site like Democratic Underground.

[okaawhatever]

21. On the ground reports say otherwise. The first batch likely flew in when Yanukovych was pulled

out. There were eight helicopters spotted last night or the night before. Just given the fact that they weren't wearing insignia is telling. It's highly unlikely that sailors stationed at Sevastopol would have uniforms without their insignia, much less sixty of them.

[another_liberal]

23. Not sailors, no.

Troops to defend personnel housing and the port facilities. As to the helicopters, who saw them come in and land? Have we invaded the Crimea with Navy Seal teams who are reporting Russian air movements!

Lighten up a bit, OK?

[psychopomp]

35. Here are some Russian helicopters

[Renew Deal]

38. Red Dawn

[totodeinhere]

36. Ukraine should immediately go to the Security Council and demand an immediate pullout of all

Russian troops on Ukrainian soil. Yes of course Russia would veto any resolution to that effect but the debate over the topic would be embarrassing to say the least. Ukraine is a sovereign nation and has the right to control all of its territory.

[pampango]

41. Apparently Russia is not going to the Security Council for permission to use force in Ukraine.

Actually I saw that the Security Council is in an emergency meeting now to discuss this military action. Of course, Russia will veto anything that restricts their military but at least the UN is discussing it.

Here's some news from the UN:

Ukraine tells United Nations of Russian incursion

UNITED NATIONS (AP) — Ukraine's U.N. ambassador says he has told the U.N. Security Council that Russian military helicopters and transport planes are entering his country and Russian armed forces seized Ukraine's main airport.

Ukraine's Ambassador Yuriy Sergeyev told reporters Friday outside the council that neither major airport in Ukraine is under national control and that the main airport was "captured by Russian armed forces."

He said 11 Russian military helicopters had been brought in along with M-24 military transport planes.

The private Security Council meeting came hours after Ukraine said Russian troops have taken up positions around a coast guard base and two airports in its Crimean peninsula, and sought help from the council to help protect it from its powerful neighbor.

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/us/article/UN-Security-Council-meets-in-private-on-Ukraine-5276992.php

[another_liberal]

42. The Russians do have a treaty with Ukraine which gives them rights in Crimea . . .

Until, I think, 2024. So Ukraine can hardly ask the UNSC to invalidate that treaty on their unilateral request alone.

[totodeinhere]

57. We had a treaty with Batista to keep a base in Cuba too.

But times and governments change. And Russian troop movements in Crimea have almost certainly violated and abrogated that treaty.

[Igel]

61. 2042.

IIRC, which is funny considering Voinovich's book of the same name.

Interestingly, it's a treaty that was signed by Yanukovich several years before the previous treaty was set to expire.

Why would the UNSC be called upon to invalidate a treaty that they're not party to?

[Xithras]

24. Actually...

...most of the worlds modern military forces now affix flags and insignias with velcro. It would have only taken a few moments for each of them to pull their patches and insignias off.

[okaawhatever]

31. Oh yes, that's true. good point. nt

[Tommy_Carcetti]

22. Yes, but think if we had sent some of our troops from Guantanamo into Cuba proper.

That still would have been one BFD.

[another_liberal]

25. I'm not saying what Russia did is not troubling . . .

But lets not get carried away with our Sands of Iwo Jima type reactions. The Russians do have a unique and understandable need to see that the kind of disorder which has taken place in Kiev does not also happen in Crimea. Take a look at the map, they are infinitely closer to all of this unrest and violence than we are.

[pampango]

26. That's a great example. It would be totally unacceptable if our troops in Guantanamo "expanded"

out from their base to take over a Cuban province or two. I suppose you could nitpick and say that would not be an 'invasion' since the US troops were already in Cuba, but most of us would reject it as the military aggression that it was.

[okaawhatever]

27. Yes, they were flown in exactly like in the movies. In fact there are some "movies" showing it:

18:07: At least five Russian Il-76 planes have landed at a military airport in Gvardiysky, near Simferopol, Ukrainska Pravda internet newspaper reports citing eyewitnesses. Reports also say a column of Russian armoured personnel carriers is heading towards Simferopol

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26380336

Here are pictures and video of the 11 Russian helicopters

http://www.itv.com/news/2014-02-28/group-of-military-helicopters-seen-flying-towards-crimean-seized-military-airport/

A soldier at Crimea's Semferipol airport has confirmed to local Channel 1 TV that they are Russian

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-02-28/soldiers-at-crimean-airport-confirms-he-is-russian/

More and more more reports tonight of Russian troops appearing in civilian locations around #Crimea This is a take-over.

http://www.itv.com/news/story/2014-02-28/ukraine-russia-yanukovich-crimea/#reports-of-russian-troops-in-civilian-areas-of-crimea_331560

Heavily armed 'Russian' troops at Crimea's main airport

With video
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-02-28/these-troops-are-not-ukrainian-that-is-certain/

[another_liberal]

30. I don't see any actual video of troop helicopters ferrying in troops from Russia. Not a bit.

Several Western reporters are making assumptions and accusations about this and that, but the video you offer here could just as easily be of air assets based at Sevastopol, being used to patrol Crimean territory.

Don't you think this is the kind of situation where it is especially important to not get too unrestrained with our rhetoric? Evidence should be real evidence, not just supposition which reinforces what we already want to believe.

[okaawhatever]

34. How about an official statement from Ukraine Border Guard Service?

(Reuters) - More than 10 Russian military helicopters flew from Russia into Ukrainian airspace over the Crimea region on Friday, the Ukrainian border guard service said on Friday.

It also said in a statement that Russian servicemen were blocking off a unit of Ukrainian border guards in the port city of Sevastopol, where part of the Russian Black Sea fleet is based.

Russia's Black Sea fleet had earlier on Friday denied any role in the seizure of a military airport near Sevastopol.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/02/28/uk-ukraine-crisis-helicopters-idUKBREA1R0QO20140228

It's not rhetoric when Russia isn't getting airspace clearance to fly these aircraft.

[dionysus]

69. capitalist lies!

[yellowcanine]

46. I am not defending Putin but he probably does have reason to worry about the naval base.

And concern about the Black Sea fleet may actually keep Putin from getting too crazy. An unstable situation could jeopardize the fleet. That could be why they blocked access to the airports - to keep any freelancers from hijacking planes and threatening the fleet. That said, it could also be true that Putin is planning to invade Crimea using the pretext of protecting the fleet.

[KeepItReal]

32. No shit, Sherlock

Who else would move in and take over government offices and the airport?

[TwilightGardener]

37. You know what's funny, I figured they would try to instigate violence and lots of unrest

in Crimea as cover for Russia to try to take it over (and there were some anti-Russia protests), but apparently they couldn't gin that up convincingly, so they went "Ah fuck it, let's just do this". I read an analysis last week that said that Putin would move fast and get troops in place because he likes to present "facts on the ground", and it seems that was correct. Though they're not admitting a real invasion-invasion, still making bullshit noises about territorial integrity and pre-planned exercises.

[Renew Deal]

39. The Ukrainians will have to fight for their independence if they really want it.

[pampango]

43. The Hungarians and Czechs tried that a few decades ago. It did not turn out well.

For now it appears that Ukraine's president has decided not to defend its territory.

“Ukraine’s military will fulfill its duties, but will not succumb to provocation, and is not entering into armed conflict, understanding the high danger that this would expose to the civilian population of Crimea.

“I personally address President Putin with the demand that he immediately end this provocation and recall troops from Crimea, and that we work within the frames of existing agreements.

“In 1994 Ukraine unilaterally renounced nuclear weapons in exchange for a guarantee of its safety from the US, Russia and Great Britain. … The whole civilized world supports Ukraine.”

“We are trying to neutralize this provocation, we are trying to normalize the situation. We are sure that Ukraine will preserve its territory, Ukraine will defend its independence, and any attempt at annexation, invasion, will have very serious consequences.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/28/ukraine-accuses-russia-of-taking-over-airports-live-updates

[Renew Deal]

49. That doesn't change the fact that if they want it, they have to fight for it.

[cosmicone]

45. Putin is a brilliant strategist

He has all the chess moves figured out and planned.

The West stands no chance in this and there is almost nothing they can do. NATO would not want a war with Russia over Ukraine.

The whole Western strategy seemed to be to take over Ukraine and hamper Russia's ability to supply Syria. Russians won't let that happen - plain and simple.

In the end, the solution will be for EU to withdraw the invitation to Ukraine and let Ukraine be an independent country in Russia's sphere of influence.

[pampango]

47. Yeah, he's just brilliant. He has a large army and he's not afraid to use it. That's just brilliant.

What have we come to when invading another country because nobody can stop you is brilliant. Bush was not brilliant when he invaded Afghanistan and Iraq just because Russia could not stop us and did not want a war with the US over those countries.

[cosmicone]

55. It's not just about using the military

but about figuring out all of the opponents' moves in advance and have a programmed and swift response to them.

It will take EU and NATO several days to come up with a response while Putin has figured out all their options and has a counter-move ready to go at a moment's notice.

Like I have said from the get go -- the Ukrainian protesters were foolish, naïve and impatient. They should have let the political process play out instead of deposing a popularly elected president.

What they did is like a bunch of rough people from Oakland took to the streets wanting California to be independent and forced Jerry Brown to flee.

[Igel]

63. "Seem" is a fascinating verb.

The whole Western strategy seemed to be to take over Ukraine and hamper Russia's ability to supply Syria. Russians won't let that happen - plain and simple.

It means pretty much nothing, but most people think it means a great deal.

All it means is, "I think", without bothering to adduce any actual information or observation in support. Yet it bears the weight of evidence, of observation.

It's difficult to see--without selective parsing, spinning, and manipulating of information--how there was a Western strategy to do much of anything before actual Ukrainian people got involved. Which would deny that there was a "strategy."

But having posited a strategy, we must adduce a motive to justify the attribution of a strategy. Having ventured out to a small branch, we continue to spin, gyrate, gyre and gimbol until such time as we are perched on the end of a twig and say, "It's all about Syria."

It's rather like a scultor who doesn't so much create an statue of Adonis as remove what is necessary to reveal the statue of Adonis already in the marble. So we have pundits who don't so much create a story as remove all the parts necessary to reveal the story. In each case, we prefer to claim what isn't true.

[christx30]

65. So the people in the Ukraine that

want to distance themselves from Russia and become closer to Europe can go piss up a rope.
And we're back to the days of the USSR where Russia would swallow up small republics around them, and people would die to try to escape to the west. Sounds like a great way of leaving these people.

[TwilightGardener]

70. Yes, the brilliance of his guy Yanukovich firing on protesters during

the Sochi Olympics really enhanced the games he spent soooo much money on, huh? And then Weird Al running like a chickenshit out of the city, and then the country, before he's strung up--leaving his Presidential mansion and petting zoo and car museum to the masses to wander through...and now Swiss bank accounts frozen? Putin tried to get the entirety of Ukraine into his planned Eurasian bloc, and now might get to keep a little piece of it for his very own, because it has a military base and friendly Russians already, but at what cost, diplomatically and possibly economically? I'm not seeing the brilliance, but you go on with your bad self.

[yurbud]

48. what would we do if there was a coup in a country where we had bases? and it was right next door?

[pampango]

50. Cuba. We have a base. Cuba wants us out. We defend the base and that's it.

We don't take over the surrounding Cuban province or more.

Are you saying that once a country agrees to let the US or Russia have a military base on their soil, we then have the right to invade that country to protect the base that they let us have?

[yurbud]

51. a better analogy would be a base in Canada since we have had that odd arrangement with Cuba

for a long time.

If the government shifted from a friendly to unfriendly one that might want to remove the base, that would be a different scenario.

[pampango]

79. Are you saying that the US would have some sovereign right to use force to keep a base on Canadian

territory that the Canadian government now wanted us to vacate? Would the same logic apply in reverse if Canada had a military base in the US?

[yurbud]

88. not at all. I'm saying it would be done whether or not it was legally right

and whether or not we did it, we would not allow Canada or anyone else to do the same.

I didn't say I agreed with it.

[ctsnowman]

52. Shhh don't

use logic. Just clap and shout USA USA USA

[totodeinhere]

58. The right thing to do would be to pull out. Just because we didn't pull out of Guantanamo

Last edited Fri Feb 28, 2014, 09:44 PM - Edit history (1)

doesn't make it right. On other occasions we did the right thing such as when we pulled out of our Philippine bases at the request of a new government there.

Look, I know that based upon the foreign policy that this country has conducted we don't have much moral authority to tell the Russians what to do. But the Ukrainians have every right to exercise their sovereignty and the world community should back them up.

[yurbud]

64. I thought we were stalling in the Philippines until Mt Pinotubo ruined the bases

So they were useless anyway.

[TwilightGardener]

71. How was the Ukraine situation a coup? Did the military get involved?

Or did the Parliament turn against Yanukovich and impeach him? He fled even before charges were brought.

[Abq_Sarah]

73. We'd defend the base

Not try and annex the country.

[Baclava]

56. I bet this is all because the USA beat Russia in hockey in Sochi or something

Canada won the Gold - get over it you posers

[idendoit]

62. Sevastopol, and Russia's only warm water port,....

...is an administratively separate entity within the autonomous region of Crimea. Russia can and will move to protect this valuable asset.

[nolkyz]

66. Greatest Hits

\

Have a great weekend!

[longship]

77. "Moscow has vowed to protect Russian-speaking Ukrainians in Crimea"

How convenient.

Is that like the German speakers in Danzig?

This is troubling, if you ask me.

[davidpdx]

78. They might as well post this now:

[IMG][/IMG]

[Pterodactyl]

83. Reset! Reset!