Ukraine Jewish leaders to Putin: No anti-Semitism, please leave
Source: Ynet News
Open letter signed by Jewish leaders says Russian claim of rising anti-Semitism in Ukraine 'does not correspond to the actual facts.'
Jewish leaders in Ukraine have written an open letter to Russian President Vladimir Putin, urging him to withdraw his troops from their country and rejecting his claims of anti-Semitic activity there.
The letter, published on the website of the Euro-Asian Jewish Congress, casts doubts on Putin's motivations for sending his troops into Ukraine in the wake of the mass protests that led to the removal from power of former president Viktor Yanukovich last month. And regarding anti-Jewish sentiment, the letters states that Russia is far more guilty of anti-Semitism than Ukraine.
"The Russian-speaking citizens of Ukraine are not being humiliated or discriminated against, their civil rights have not been limited", says the letter. "Meanderings about 'forced Ukrainization' and 'bans on the Russian language' that have been so common in Russian media are on the heads of those who invented them. Your certainty of the growth of anti-Semitism in Ukraine also does not correspond to the actual facts. It seems you have confused Ukraine with Russia, where Jewish organizations have noticed growth in anti-Semitic tendencies last year.
Read more: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4497618,00.html
Just in case anyone is believing the Putin apologists spreading lies on DU that the Jews in Ukraine are in danger or in favor of Putin
delrem
(9,688 posts)That deserves a free bag of popcorn.
Cha
(297,154 posts)get nothing.
heheheh! that was just wonderful non sequitur!
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)could you be clear spell it out please?
EmilyAnne
(2,769 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)But I'll tell you plain: the Ukrainian situation isn't helped by putting a focus on the statements of some Ukraine Jewish Leader. Esp. if meant to heat up a bloodlust in US onlookers, ever eager for a new victim.
Other than that, I'm not making a statement on the situation at all.
karynnj
(59,501 posts)There is NO bloodlust from anyone here. The most consistent message that the US - Obama or Kerry - have put out is that everyone should avoid violence.
Yes, I KNOW that there was a long thread yesterday bashing Kerry for not giving Putin the command performance Putin asked for - in Moscow - after Putin rejected every proposal that Kerry/EU/ and Putin's own FM put together in France.
Immediately it was framed as Kerry refusing to talk and rejecting diplomacy. In fact, per most sources, WASHINGTON initiated the phone call between Kerry and Lavrov yesterday. Hardly "refusing to talk". http://savannahnow.com/news/2014-03-11/crimeas-parliament-pushes-independence#.UyBiAT9dWSo (Randomly picked US AP article that was also in the Burlington Freepress that I read this morning. ) Note that RIA reports the same - http://en.ria.ru/world/20140312/188326664/Lavrov-Kerry-Discuss-Ukrainian-Crisis.html
It is ironic that some of the same people who trust nothing the US says without proof, take every Russian, Venezuelan, and Iranian source at face value. (On this issue, both Ukranians and Russians have - in their past - been antisemitic. )
delrem
(9,688 posts)I'm astounded to note that I agree with BtA on this.
And I figure that by promoting those memes you're way the fuck down a rabbit-hole.
EmilyAnne
(2,769 posts)How dare they.
delrem
(9,688 posts)In fact the opposite, if zarathustra sprak nonsense, suggesting that "anti-semetism" is somehow of any pertinence to the current "Situation in the Ukraine (tm)", I'd claim it was nonsense. In fact I did, didn't I EmilyAnne?
EmilyAnne
(2,769 posts)that their opinions have no pertinence to the current "Situation in the Ukraine (tm)," right?
But, seriously, you appear quite eager to make some sort of point, but I have no idea what it is.
delrem
(9,688 posts)For once.
DallasNE
(7,402 posts)Have involved the Russian speaking majority attacking the minority population meaning they are the bullies and probably at the behest of mother Russia. Obviously, Russia is looking for any pretext in order to move their troops into Ukraine where clashes are likely to break out. Clearly, Russia is the outlaw nation in this conflict.
delrem
(9,688 posts)"bullies and probably at the behest of mother Russia". "Obviously"... "Clearly"... "the outlaw nation in this conflict".
Christ ona pogostick, but that's a hair-raising conclusion: get-em cowboy!!!
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)davidpdx
(22,000 posts)Cha
(297,154 posts)post.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Cha
(297,154 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)It's that you say things like "the Putin puppets around here. Must protect Putin at all costs."
That's fucking repulsive, Cha. You mean it to be repulsive. So cut the shit.
Sad isn't it.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)I think it is obvious what is going to happen in Crimea. The bigger question is whether Eastern Ukraine will be next. If Russia does go into Eastern Ukraine, it's going to be much harder to justify.
Behind the Aegis
(53,951 posts)...is there an increase in attacks?
...are the nature of attacks different?
...what is the purpose of the claims/refutations of attacks?
Ukraine has a horrible history when it comes to Jews, but then so does Russia. I don't know the history in Ukraine in regards to "native" Russians. IMO, this is way too much faux concern over the "plight" of the Jews. Both sides are using us as a "weapon." I do believe there are some who are concerned, but for the most part, most, IMO, don't give a rat's ass what happens to us.
delrem
(9,688 posts)and you eagerly chime in until you discover that the idea is that you're going to be the ball.
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)In the South East. Not the west where the nationalist nazi factions supposedly are.
No doubt shit is going down in Ukraine, but to equate it to some sort of ethnic cleansing or even ethnic oppression is a joke of epic proportions. They're a largely integrated society and while there are some nasty elements they don't represent the Ukrainian people as a whole. The nazi groups there have similar numbers as the nazi groups in the United States. It's a joke.
(Note: apparently many western Ukrainians were nazi sympathizers in WWII and their ranks are somewhat celebrated to this day, but to broad brush the whole population is crazy. A lot of western Ukrainians are ashamed of that past history. Just because some loonies go and put wreaths on nazi graves doesn't mean the entire western region is pro-nazi, it's absurd.)
Behind the Aegis
(53,951 posts)I was told "the damage was minimal and non-consequential." In my mind, it simply proved my "theory" that any anti-Semitism occurring was not really a concern for most people, but rather a "chess piece." I am concerned about some of the Ukrainian leaders, make no mistake, but I am really getting irritated at the use of the lives and safety of Jews as some fucking game. It was the same bullshit I saw when the anti-gay laws came out of Russia and some using their hate of Snowden, Russia, or what-not to be "concerned" about our rights. Of course, some of the same people defending Russia then, are doing so now, so when I see them crowing about "anti-Semitism," it makes me ill.
I am afraid for the Jews in Ukraine and Russia. It doesn't matter what happens; we will be blamed!
PCIntern
(25,532 posts)Chris Rock: "That train always leaves on time."
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)It would be nice if we had some trustworthy source. Sounds like the history certainly doesn't favor that area in terms of reputation. I remain skeptical about the claim from both sides as well.
I think that international monitors should be sent in to assess what is really going on in Eastern Ukraine with regard to the issue of human rights.
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)Russia is basically setting the stage for it by fomenting an ethnic divide that hasn't existed for decades and likely wouldn't have surfaced were it not for Russian hegemony.
Cha
(297,154 posts)at all costs.
Behind the Aegis
(53,951 posts)People do not give a shit about anti-Semitism in either country. Many will actually claim the Jews are behind it (the revolution, the attacks, whatever the fuck they want). To some, anti-Semitism is nothing but a joke anyway.
Like any Ukrainian, there are Jews on both sides of the issue and they will be played by both sides as well, and be mocked in the process.
delrem
(9,688 posts)newthinking
(3,982 posts)There is incredible spin and much of the mainstream media is shallow if not misrepresentative. They will cover some of one story and then a week later it is like it never happened. They completely ignore some facts like the rise of svoboda and right sector into places of power in the executive branch.
The thing that bothers me most is the attempts to soften the image of neo-nazi's. "These are not your "typical" nazi's, they don't talk (openly) about killing jewish people! They only want what is best for everyone." . In some ways the events in Ukraine seem to be transformative, in that we are accepting these groups into the mainstream, and that has serious long term implications.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)joshcryer
(62,269 posts)...yet you invoke softening the image of the neo-Nazi's. That's quite a leap right there.
Igel
(35,300 posts)I want to understand them. There are fascists and there are fascists. It's not like you get a "fascist kit" and, when you open it, every bit of the software self-installs and you start goose-stepping and saying "Heil, Hitler" instead of "hi, honey" to your wife.
Even Bandera, that boogey-man of the Stalinists, wasn't a "good fascist". He and his worked with the Nazis when it suited them. The Germans didn't much like him--they used each other. He and his also fought the Germans when it suited them. They hated the Jews--keep in mind that the Jews where he was from had been largely transplanted there a century before to keep Russia Judenrein. They hated the Poles, but keep in mind that the Poles had been the prior set of oppressors and had disproportionate power. They had a single goal: a safe, national homeland in their original territory for their people. (Sounds like the PLO, to be honest. And those on the left used to want the same for Tibet. And, not long ago under Clinton, for the Kosovar Albanians.)
Also keep in mind that their mindset was "the" mindset for the time. The Allies had no problem with keeping Jews in refugee camps for years after WWII ended. They had no problem with shifting Poland, which involved ethnic cleansing of Germans in the "new West" of Poland or with Russia's ethnically cleansing Poles from what became USSR. Italians were cleansed from Slovenia; Slovenians cleansed, under Allied supervision, from Italy. Few noticed when the Sudeten Germans were expelled from Czechoslovakia.
Rather than thinking at the level of labels, I want to know what Svoboda actually stands for now. As far as I can tell, apart from having a rather wide-ranging set of "principles" that it's adopted and sidelined in the last 22 years or so, there are two. The first boils down to this: Ukraine for Ukrainians, and if others want to stay they accept that Ukrainian language and culture is going to be dominant--which makes sense, since most of the country speaks Ukrainian and is ethnic Ukrainian. All the anti-Semitism is stock boilerplate that you hear from the Party of Regions, from Edinaya Rossiya, and from most other parts of society in the area. If that makes Svoboda fascist, then PR is fascist, Yanukovich was fascist, Aksenov is fascist, and Putin is fascist. If everybody's fascist, then all that's left are other factors.
A dominant Ukrainian culture and language would be a break from what was before 1991. Then Russian was dominant. You had to know Russian. You were taught Shevchenko, but more importantly Pushkin. You could speak Ukrainian--but if you wanted to be highly educated, if you wanted a government job, if you wanted to do a lot of things, you needed to know Russian. If you didn't know Russian, it was like not knowing English in the US. You could stay in the barrio, in your ghetto, but outside you were at a disadvantage. It's the kind of thing that makes French into nationalists--having areas of Paris where French is pointless and you need to know the dominant language there. Czechs were the same way when English took over some bits of it. And I imagine that if there were pure-English areas of the DF (not there to attract tourists) there'd be a bit of outrage. It's a natural group reaction to having your group's turf usurped.
In "regions" this is still the case. Yes, Ukrainian is official. But the Russians that enjoyed "Russian privilege" really don't want to give it up. It's possible to treat Ukrainian like Americans treat French in school--you take a few classes, pass tests, and that's it. That wasn't legal, but it happened, and was defended. (That's part of it.) Russians have higher income, higher birthrates, better living standards overall. Their language and culture are okay pretty much everywhere. And they remind Ukrainians that they saved Ukraine, built Ukraine, mentored Ukraine, and Ukrainians had damned well better be appreciative of the Russian man's burden. Even in standard Russian speech, "gutsul" may not be cultured but you get civilized, respected people referring to kholopy. Imagine Obama getting up and saying that "Kykes should have their own state so he supports Israel" or "Beaner-dreamers should pay in-state tuition and a path to citizenshp." It would be intolerable. But it's not noticed when kholop is used, except by Ukrainians. There's no stigma for denigrating Ukrainians. (But Russians get really upset at being called moskali and decry it as fascist. It's like racist whites being pissed at being called whitey in return.)
The other part of it is that the west was pretty much ignored by the Russians. Agrarian, not trustworthy, all the emphasis was on the proles. Not the farmers. Kiev, the south, the east got a lot of attention. More Russian areas. The result was economic imbalance. Ukrainians again discriminated against in their own land--this time by Russian-speakers, who don't want to give up their perks as dominant. From having a few percentage of the electorate support Svoboda in the early '90s, when Svoboda was really a lot more fascist than just nationalist, "freedom" just showed the Ukrainian "nationalists" that more was needed. Under politicians that were pro-Russian and pro Russian areas nationalism grew.
It would be interesting to see what would happen in 15 years if ethnic tensions ratcheted down and wealth and prestige were better shared. Probably the same that would happen in the US as far as class tensions go if wealth and prestige were better shared. You'd be left with core agitators, but most would move on. Just as the fascist elements in Allied thinking also mostly went away.
The second Svoboda principle and, I think, the one that rankles many DUers, is that they are firmly anti-communist. (Remember the Lenin statues taken down?) They're not nearly as large corporatist as billed, nor pro-oligarch, but they are in favor of a state that is less controlling. From their POV, the state has almost always strongly favored Russian. Now, this is a bit of weirdness: You can't be as firmly totalitarian as people say you are and also be against a really strong state . The idea for increased federalism has been floated and is compatible with Svoboda.
All of this turns into, oddly, a conundrum. If you're firmly ultranationalist, how can you favor European integration, which is Svoboda's big selling point these days? Because in the EU you *can* have Ukrainian as a national language with less international threat and the economic "prime real estate" will be in the West, where Ukrainians are more culturally non-Russified. The way it's working now is that Russia is still dominating much of the Ukraine and that will eventually work its way over into Galicia. Cultural and economic imperialism is ongoing, even under "non-fascists" like, um, Putin (?).
So, yeah, Svoboda is fascist. But that's a label; Mugabe was nearly as fascist and Abbas is as fascist. It's like "Democratic", a label. We're not all Blue Dogs, we're not all so left that the Blue Dogs think we're Leninists. Heck, some of us aren't particularly democratic, or certainly not liberal democrats (even if we are liberal Democrats). Labels can hide as much as they reveal, and never more so than in a heated argument, and never more so when there's a propaganda campaign going on.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)Well done.
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)joshcryer
(62,269 posts)They literally talk shit about Israel (though it is the most progressive state in the middle east) while cheering on the fascists taking power in Crimea under Putin's imperialist militaristic occupation.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)For the past four years, Jenia Zlotnik from Be'er Sheva has been living in Simferopol, the capital of Crimea, the Ukrainian peninsula at the center of a crisis that threatens to relaunch the Cold War between East and West. And according to Zlotnik, the Russian presence is a blessing.
Zlotnik, a medical student, says that the local and international media has not reported the full story, namely, that the Russian troop presence is maintaining law and order.
"In light of recent tensions in Crimea, Ukraine is on the verge of civil war, with riots taking place near Kiev, including armed men raiding shops and robbing people in broad daylight," he says. "There have also been numerous murders during the theft of arms and ammunition."
Zlotnik emphasized that he had no loyalty to either side, but that Putin's decision to deploy troops had brought a stabilizing influence to the region.
"I dont support either Ukraine or Russia, however the situation here would be much worse if Putin hadn't invaded Crimea. I realize that his sole motive is controlling this region; however it is better than having a civil war."
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4494935,00.html
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)"Putin's decision to deploy troops had brought a stabilizing influence to the region."
No shit, is anyone going to act out when you're surrounded by armed troops?
Fascist occupation is often met with humble acceptance. Lest I need to post the images of nazi's being greeted with flowers. Hopefully I have not invoked Godwin's law by mentioning that.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and there fore is under no pressure to stay in the Ukraine
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)But no one actually cares about them.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Frenkel asked the prime minister to put together a plan with a budget to bring Ukrainian Jewry to Israel that would be a joint effort of the Prime Ministers Office, the Foreign Ministry, the Immigration and Absorption Ministry, the Diaspora Affairs Ministry, the Jewish Agency and more.
The lawmaker quoted figures from the World Jewish Congress which state that Ukraine has the third-largest Jewish community in Europe and the fifth-largest in the world, with 310,00 Jews and people with the right to move to Israel under the Law of Return.
Not only will Israel save these Jews from possible harm, we will finish the process that began in the 1990s in absorbing immigrants from the Soviet Union. After the successful integration of immigrants, I am sure that the rest of Ukrainian Jewry will contribute to the State of Israel and the aliya will contribute to the immigrants themselves, Frenkel wrote.
"Not only will Israel save these Jews from possible harm, we will finish the process that began in the 1990s in absorbing immigrants from the Soviet Union. After the successful integration of immigrants then, I am sure that the rest of Ukrainian Jewry will contribute to the State of Israel and the Aliya will contribute to the immigrants themselves," Frenkel wrote.
http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/Ukrainian-born-MK-to-Netanyahu-Bring-Ukraines-Jews-to-Israel-343696
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)so of course they're all on board with his actions.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)After all, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)After Tymoshenko was jailed on embezzlement charges, he meshed his Front for Change with her Fatherland party, becoming the parliamentary leader of the opposition bloc.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/ukraines-prime-minister-a-young-but-experienced-leader/2014/03/11/ceab69da-a8fe-11e3-8a7b-c1c684e2671f_story.html
EmilyAnne
(2,769 posts)Sunlei
(22,651 posts)from the locals. A lot of help.
Ivangorod, ukraine
levp
(188 posts)With pictures, please.
Hint: you will find the same rate per capita of people who lived in the occupied territories.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Look how fast last week, Russia got some Ukraine citizens, armed with clubs & lists, to go through neighborhoods and mark doors of one ethnic group with an x.
Wish Russia would just get out of there, nothing good will come from their invasion.
africanadian
(92 posts)And I thank the OP for posting this authoritative debunking of Putin's "Oh noes, dey all be Nazis!" bullshit.