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Purveyor

(29,876 posts)
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 02:50 PM Mar 2014

Far-Right Ukrainian Lawmaker Assaults State TV Boss

Source: NBC News

A lawmaker from Ukraine's far-right, ultra-nationalist party has been filmed assaulting the head of state television in his own office before forcing him to write a letter of resignation.

Igor Miroshnichenko visited the offices of First National TV on Tuesday evening and accused channel boss Oleksandr Panteleymonov of working for the Russian authorities after the station broadcast Vladimir Putin's speech on Crimea.

A video of the incident was posted online and the resignation letter was published on Facebook by the Svoboda Party's Press Secretary Aleksandr Aronets.

"You lied to Ukrainians using their own money," Miroshnichenko shouts in the video. (The physical assault comes about 4:40 into the video below).



Read more: http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/far-right-ukrainian-lawmaker-assaults-state-tv-boss-n56786
33 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Far-Right Ukrainian Lawmaker Assaults State TV Boss (Original Post) Purveyor Mar 2014 OP
NBC News is clearly a Kremlin mouthpiece Scootaloo Mar 2014 #1
This is their MO, and it is not the first or last incident of this kind to take place... Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #2
This Is Why We Have To Move So Carefully Regarding Ukraine DallasNE Mar 2014 #3
But isn't that the M.O. of the U.S.? Actually ours is FAR worse. We replace democratically elected Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #17
"He is the deputy head on Ukraine's freedom of speech committee." rdharma Mar 2014 #4
There are more like him in that new "government." KoKo Mar 2014 #5
Madness... Putting fascists in control of the security apparatus... "Those who ignore history"... Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #7
Move along Democracy, nothing to see here. Move along Sir. Move along Ma'am n/t Catherina Mar 2014 #16
LOL ctsnowman Mar 2014 #11
hopefully this crew gets crushed in the May elections and banished from governance geek tragedy Mar 2014 #6
Or..... they may be calling all the shots. rdharma Mar 2014 #9
Read NBC's story... go west young man Mar 2014 #10
yes, the Putin cheerleaders are very eager to see East Ukraine and its gas fields geek tragedy Mar 2014 #12
But you've been wrong so far....... rdharma Mar 2014 #15
no parliamentary elections in May soundsgreat Mar 2014 #30
Translation: go west young man Mar 2014 #8
It's early yet...but, I see Ukraine going the way of Egypt.... KoKo Mar 2014 #14
Translation (minute 4:45) Catherina Mar 2014 #13
Gosh, I thought we weren't supposed to get worried about only a few nazis in the new "government" Starry Messenger Mar 2014 #18
Amnesty: astonishing that a member of the parliamentary committee on freedom of speech was involved Catherina Mar 2014 #19
"Ukrainian Neo-Nazis destroy Communist Party offices" Starry Messenger Mar 2014 #21
I've seen tons of them from Bandera to candlelight Hitler marches. Catherina Mar 2014 #25
I hadn't heard about what had happened in Sweden. Starry Messenger Mar 2014 #26
Germany too. The German delegation at PACE was so concerned they were openly siding with Russia Catherina Mar 2014 #28
Yes, Russia and the Vatican are always being attacked as "Anti-Gay" happyslug Mar 2014 #32
Touched by all the concern in this thread. joshcryer Mar 2014 #20
Josh it's definitely sad about the fellow your writing about. go west young man Mar 2014 #22
Reminds me of the congressman at this past SOTU. joshcryer Mar 2014 #23
These guys posted the video themselves... go west young man Mar 2014 #24
Lock this douche bag up. blackspade Mar 2014 #27
Another attack on a pro Russian representative go west young man Mar 2014 #29
US Embassy statement MBS Mar 2014 #31
And the response of those wanting to gin up outrage against Ukraine is... stevenleser Mar 2014 #33

Democracyinkind

(4,015 posts)
2. This is their MO, and it is not the first or last incident of this kind to take place...
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 02:56 PM
Mar 2014

...They started with this shit the day Yanukovich fled the country. The thing that boggles the mind about this is that they are proud of what they are doing, they are filming all of this and putting it on their youtube channel. You don't even have to speak the language to grasp that this is a wide-spread campaign. Their doing it to members of certain parties, parliamentarians, and public figure in general - all of this while their "clean and nice" partners in power are silent about their undermining the little chance at actually achieving democracy that the movement had in the beginning.

DallasNE

(7,402 posts)
3. This Is Why We Have To Move So Carefully Regarding Ukraine
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:10 PM
Mar 2014

The old adage "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" carries a lot of risk. Replacing a very corrupt leader with a bunch of thugs is a big mistake. Unless the more moderate faction in charge today cracks down on this thuggish behavior Ukraine is in for long term problems.

Sarah Ibarruri

(21,043 posts)
17. But isn't that the M.O. of the U.S.? Actually ours is FAR worse. We replace democratically elected
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 05:30 PM
Mar 2014

leaders with thugs in all kinds of countries around the globe, and it continues today.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
5. There are more like him in that new "government."
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:21 PM
Mar 2014

Their Head of Defense is one of the Far Right of the Svoboda Party (the ones that have neo-nazi leanings) although we aren't supposed to say that here on DU. They are just the Svoboda Party...with no elements to the Farther Right. They will work it all out with the Maidan Party and things will go well. Just a little glitch with the new regime getting their bearings. Nothing to see there...move along.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
6. hopefully this crew gets crushed in the May elections and banished from governance
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:21 PM
Mar 2014

there.

anarchy allows muscle to exert too much influence.

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
9. Or..... they may be calling all the shots.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:27 PM
Mar 2014

You might not get your hoped for "Night of the Long Knives" event.

PS - Who brought about that "anarchy"?

 

go west young man

(4,856 posts)
10. Read NBC's story...
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:36 PM
Mar 2014

the control a much larger percentage of the government than they previously did and have control over the defense ministry. Or are you going to just declare NBC is a Putin mouthpiece like you do every other source that shows the hooligans who drove the Maidan protests. It's time to own up...you backed a bunch of right wing fascists thugs.

Their first act prior to this one was to cut off access to all Russian TV in Ukraine. I'm thinking we will see East Ukraine rising up to separate anytime now.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
12. yes, the Putin cheerleaders are very eager to see East Ukraine and its gas fields
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:38 PM
Mar 2014

get annexed by Russia.

I predict disappointment.

Svoboda didn't get its position because of votes, but rather because of street muscle.

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
15. But you've been wrong so far.......
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:55 PM
Mar 2014

At least you're coming around to what I said about "street muscle".

I think the interim government will have severe problems getting away from the "abusive boyfriend who brought them to the dance".

 

soundsgreat

(125 posts)
30. no parliamentary elections in May
Thu Mar 20, 2014, 03:42 AM
Mar 2014

the president will be elected, not the parliament.

The "crew" will not be crushed. The next parliament elections are in 2017.


 

go west young man

(4,856 posts)
8. Translation:
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:24 PM
Mar 2014

After they make him sit in the chair and write the letter.


"Are you Ukranian..you mother fucking cunt?' That is what he says word for word.

Now for all the DU'ers who complained about RT and thought they were not backing Maidan hoodlums, guess what? This is what you really backed. This is what the coup in Ukraine has delivered. All the so called "Putin enablers" and "Putinistas" seem to have called it correctly. Welcome to new Ukraine.

And they were stupid enough to film themselves doing it. Thugs.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
14. It's early yet...but, I see Ukraine going the way of Egypt....
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:47 PM
Mar 2014

Happiness at first but as Egypt found with Morsi--overthrowing a government by protest often has unintended consequences as the rebels fight over the spoils and decide who gets the bigger portion. And when there are "outside forces" involved it's even worse because the citizens don't really ever know who is in charge and how to take back control to restore order.




Catherina

(35,568 posts)
13. Translation (minute 4:45)
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 03:46 PM
Mar 2014
Svoboda (Freedom) party members yelled at the interim CEO and beat him in the face, accusing the channel of a lack of nationalism and forcefully demanding his resignation.

“Write your resignation!” Sit down! I told you, sit down!,” yelled one of the members while throwing punches and pushing Panteleymonov.

“You are feasting in my Ukraine!...Here is a paper, pen, write the resignation now quickly, you animal...You are Moskal (a derogatory term for Russian) garbage!”

He replied to the men, saying: “I am not Russian, I am Ukrainian.” But to that they responded: “You are Ukrainian? You are sh*t! You campaigned for Moscow, you lied to Ukrainians for our money!”


Image from facebook.com/oleksandr.aronets

The Svoboda party’s press secretary, Aleksandr Aronets, said on his Facebook page that they “forced the head of the Pershyi Natsionalnyi Panteleymonov to write a letter of resignation.” As proof, he attached a picture of the paper.

...

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-forced-resignation-nationalism-674/


These fascists are so proud of themselves, they're filming these things and posting them on their websites so their supporters can *celebrate*.




Well he’s looking, he’s looking, he’s looking down,
Hoping you’ll clean up this dirty old town.
Finish his battle, before it turns rotten,
Your granddad didn’t vote for fascists, he shot 'em.

Yeah he shot 'em, he shot 'em, he shot 'em down,
Fired his gun till they hit the ground.
So I hope, you’ve not forgotten:
Your granddad didn’t vote for fascists
He shot 'em
down.

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
19. Amnesty: astonishing that a member of the parliamentary committee on freedom of speech was involved
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 05:49 PM
Mar 2014
19 March 2014
Ukraine: Nationalist MP launches brutal attack against TV executive

A violent attack by a nationalist member of parliament against the head of one of Ukraine’s leading TV channels yesterday must be urgently investigated, and those responsible brought to justice, said Amnesty International.

Oleksandr Panteleymonov, head of the First National TV Channel, was visited in his offices by Igor Miroshnichenko from the Svoboda (Freedom) Party and at least five thugs who beat him and forced him to write a resignation letter.

Igor Miroshnichenko is a member of the parliamentary Committee on freedom of speech.

“It is astonishing that a member of the parliamentary committee on freedom of speech was involved in this attack. The acting authorities must send a signal that this sort of behaviour will not be tolerated in Ukraine,” said Heather McGill, Ukraine researcher at Amnesty International.

The attackers accused Panteleymonov of working for the Russian authorities after a live broadcast of the signing of the agreement between President Putin and the de facto Crimean authorities.

They used racist language and demanded that Oleksandr Panteleymonov apologise. They filmed the whole attack and posted it on the internet. The attackers then abducted Panteleymonov telling him that he would be forced to apologise to protesters still camping out on Independent Square. He was released a few hours after the attack became public.

“This assault on freedom of expression must be immediately investigated and those responsible must be prosecuted. Anything less will only open the door to further attacks against media professionals and activists,” said Heather McGill.

“The acting Ukrainian authorities must waste no time in demonstrating that basic human rights are protected in Ukraine and that nobody will face discrimination because of their political views or ethnic origin.”

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/oleksandr-panteleymonov-first-channel-attack-2014-03-19



How about something stronger like "NO FASCISTS"?

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
21. "Ukrainian Neo-Nazis destroy Communist Party offices"
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 06:05 PM
Mar 2014


Few cared a few weeks ago when it was the Communists. But like the old poem says, they usually do come for us first...who will be left to care for the remaining people who are even an eyelash to the left of the Right Sector?

And as for elections ridding Ukraine of these Nazi thugs, apparently a few people haven't been watching the rise of Nazism in this area for the last few years. They have memorial parades that are quite popular where veterans wear their WW2 *Nazi* uniforms and are supported by the younger crowd.

I can't post a lot of these, since they are on pro-Nazi anti-Semitic hate sites, but there are a shit-ton of them. This isn't the fringe.

This is from last August, from AP, obviously Moscow running-dogs.

http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-divided-over-wwii-legacy-100702056.html



CHERVONE, Ukraine (AP) — Ukrainians dressed in Nazi SS uniform trudge through trenches and fire model rifles in a reconstruction of a key battle against the Soviets during World War II. An Orthodox priest leads a ceremony for fallen soldiers of the Nazi unit, sprinkling his blessing over several men sporting swastikas who lower a coffin in a ritual reburial.

The scenes were part of commemorations last week of soldiers many Ukrainian nationalists — along with a smattering of hardcore ultra-rightists — hail as heroes. The men they are honoring belonged to the SS Galician division, a Nazi military unit made up mostly of Ukrainians, which fought Soviet troops during World War II.

<snip>

Politicians are also deeply divided on the subject. Former President Viktor Yushchenko, who steered Ukraine toward the West after leading the 2004 Orange Revolution, campaigned to have the nationalist insurgents honored as heroes, even though leading Western historians say many of their units had a hand in massacring civilians, including Jews and Poles. And the radical nationalist party Svoboda — a vocal force in parliament whose leaders have been accused of anti-Semitic and racist remarks — extolls those fighters.

The Party of Regions led by President Viktor Yanukovych, who is seen as more Russia-friendly, has campaigned against treating the men as heroes. But the party has exploited the anti-fascist cause to its advantage. In May, it organized a large rally in Kiev to protest fascism and call for tolerance — but after the event ended, pro-government activists clashed with opposition protesters and beat up two journalists trying to film the brawl.

Post-Soviet Ukraine has failed to investigate, prosecute or bring to trial a single Nazi war criminal, according to Efraim Zuroff, the top Nazi hunter with the Simon Wiesenthal Center. The same is true of other post-Communist countries with a record of Nazi collaboration such as Latvia, Estonia and Belarus. Pressed by the West, Lithuania put three Nazi criminals on trial, but waited until they were too old or unfit to be punished. In all of these countries, experts say, suspected Nazi collaborators were protected because of their role fighting the Soviets, considered by much of the population as the greater enemy.

<snip>

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
25. I've seen tons of them from Bandera to candlelight Hitler marches.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 08:52 PM
Mar 2014

And I won't shut up about it. I almost posted that quote too, that first they come for the Communists who were the first to sound the alarm in the 30s too when the pragmatics said *oh we can work with these guys*, *they're not that bad*. I've seen how bad that 88 Heil Hitler crowd is in real life and I wouldn't wish their hate on my worst enemy. I posted a few of their more tame videos here but crickets. Elections? What elections? For an interim putsch government, they sure are passing a lot of decrees. Today they had requests for a demilitarized zone to *protect* them even though it's their thugs and their military hardware that keeps trying to cross in pro-Russian areas but gets stopped by antifascist activists. Our media, the entire G7 state-licking media, is doing us no favors at all with their lies and their white-washing. I've got bookmarks, reports, videos and pictures galore of these shitheads, many are pre 2012 and from their own websites. In 2012 they were vehemently denounced as neo-nazis by world organizations and the EU parliament. Now? They put on suits, put their lapel pins under their jackets and they're suddenly respectable. In the 21st century! Germany's not even done arresting all its original Nazis yet and they're courting the new ones. Every time I see one of their pictures with Nuland, Kerry or Obama, I'm depressed for hours. Unbelievable. I went and looked at a few White Power sites in the US and those guys are pissing from joy.

Total complicity from the Western media. How about a report on Showan Shattak, in critical condition after being stabbed by Swedish Svenskarnas Nazis following their return from participating in the Euromaiden protests? Showan Shattak is the most well-known Swedish anti-homophobia campaigner.

The established community uses fascists

The attack took place after a "reclaim-the-night" demonstration on International Women's Day in the left-wing area Möllevånden in central Malmö. After the demonstration was over and people were going to a party, a group of fascists attacked a group of left-wing activists. The fascists were armed with knives and four activists were hospitalized, one of whom, Showan Shattak, is still in a coma. It is uncertain whether he will survive. It seems that he may have been a deliberate target of the Nazis, he has been a public figure in a campaign for football fans against homophobia.

The attack is just latest in a series of fascist groups' attacks on left-wing activists. In October, Kvarnby folk high school, a training center in Malmö associated with the Left Party, was firebombed. In December, a demonstration in Kärrtorp (south of Stockholm) was attacked by a group of 30 neo-Nazi thugs. In January, a member of the Swedish Social Democratic Youth was attacked in Malmö.

The entire Swedish Establishment has declared that the right-wing extremism is just as bad as the left-wing "extremism", indicating that when neo-Nazi thugs attack demonstrations against the cuts, it's just a conflict between two equally guilty parties. It is clear that although the current center-right government s obviously is not fascist in any way, it has no objection to let the neo-Nazi attacks intimidate left-wing activists, especially anti-fascists.

...

Ukraine - a boost for the fascist morality

Throughout the conflict in Ukraine, the Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bild, persistently tried to deny that there were any fascists or anti-Semites present in the Ukrainian Maiden movement even up to the point where he claimed that Svoboda consists of "democrats". The Swedish press gave Swedish neo-Nazis who traveled to Ukraine plenty of space to express their support for the movement and their calls for ethnic cleansing in Ukraine.

It is clear that the Swedish Nazis have gotten a massive morale boost from events in Ukraine. In fact, one of those involved in the attack (on Showan Shattak) had just returned from a trip to Ukraine. As for the Swedish intelligence service, the Swedish neonazis' activities in Ukraine is not something they care about.

The response from the government has been passive. Since the events of last Saturday, the prime minister was forced to declare that neo-Nazis "besmirch" Sweden's reputation. It is undoubtedly true, but it is far from even a condemnation of the attack.

The police has shown very little interest in pursuing the neo-Nazi, who according to witnesses, held the knife. It is reported that he has been repeatedly called in for questioning, but has not been arrested. It looks rather like the police and the court are more interested in blaming the left-wing activist victims for the attack. The Swedes' party, whose members performed the attack, has issued a statement saying that their members only acted in "self-defense" after they had been attacked by a group of leftists. This version of events is also now been published in the right-wing tabloid Expressen , quoting police as a source of information.

...

Much more at the link.

(Marxist.dk is COPYLEFT)

http://www.marxist.dk/artikler/internationellt/5314-den-svenske-arbejderbevaegelse-star-sammen-mod-fascistiske-angreb.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522Showan%2BShattak%2522%2Bmaiden%2BUkraine%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US fficial%26channel%3Drcs%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D828" target="_blank">Google Translate Link


3 NeoNazis were finally arrested after a huge public outcry.

We don't hear a word about any of this in the MSM. We don't hear a word about protests taking place all over Europe to protest the coalition with these thugs.


Showan Shattak, founder of ‘Football fans against homophobia’, stabbed by neonazis and in a coma but no one gives a fuck because you have to look at the truth to do so. He didn't even rate a fucking mention in the G7 state-fellating media.

Please come out of your coma Showan. The world needs you.

And fuck all the Neonazi White Power collaborators wherever they be and right up to the top.


Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
26. I hadn't heard about what had happened in Sweden.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 09:50 PM
Mar 2014

Holy crap.

"Neo-Nazi groups more active in Sweden"

http://www.goteborgdaily.se/news/neo-nazi-groups-more-active-in-sweden



Extreme right wing groups have become more and more active in Sweden during the past year, according to a report from the foundation Expo, which was released on Wednesday.

The report revealed that the movement organised 55 activities in Gothenburg last year. Nationwide the figure was 2,333, which is 28 per cent more than in 2012 (1,824).

<snip>

“Activities from neo-Nazi groups have increased dramatically during the past year; we see an increased spreading of propaganda, a greater number of manifestations and more ways for spreading their message,” Anna-Sofia Quensel, a researcher at Expo, told news broadcaster Ekot.

<snip>

The political party Party of the Swedes (Svenskarnas parti) was behind most of last year’s activity jump as during the autumn it started its campaign ahead of September’s election



Cosign all of your post. I'm so glad to see you posting on this, sister.

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
28. Germany too. The German delegation at PACE was so concerned they were openly siding with Russia
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 11:42 PM
Mar 2014

because the Maiden protests was emboldening their local neonazi groups. They were immediately brought back in line by Merkel and Brussels and I haven't seen anything from them, about that, in a while.

NeoNazis traveled from all over Europe, and some from the US, to go. I was googling something the other day and the link went to that disgusting Stormfront where they were getting daily reports from an American member on the ground.

28 per cent more than in 2012? That's awful!

2014 needs a good remake of "All You Fascists Are Bound To Lose".

28 per cent! France too, now that they've switched to suits and toned down their language a bit, they're considered respectable and all is forgiven. Attacks on Arabs, Muslims, Africans, (etc) by the 88 crowd are on the rise but all is forgiven.

I don't imagine things are any better in the UK judging by how the Daily Mail is constantly blaming immigrants and poor people for all of the UK's woes. Hardly a day goes by with a welfare queen story on page 1.

It's no surprise you never heard of Showan Shattak, they won't even give him a sideline, too inconvenient.

No sideline either for Ali Ahmad Asseri, the former first secretary of the Saudi consulate in Los Angeles, who was desperately begging us for asylum for 4 years and we just officially denied it because we don't want to upset US-Saudi relations, so we're sending him back there to probably be executed for having spoken out against Saudi Arabia's barbaric treatment of gays.

This new world is not to my liking at all. Thanks for cosigning Sister. All your stuff gets an auto endorsement.
:

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
32. Yes, Russia and the Vatican are always being attacked as "Anti-Gay"
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 12:02 AM
Mar 2014

But no one is executing gays in Russia or the Vatican. From what I have read, no one is looking for gays to prosecute in either place. On the other hand, Saudi Arabia kills gays all the time. Being gay is also illegal in Iran, but again they do NOT execute people for it (they have executed gays, but for other crimes, including rape, murder, and drug trafficking).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Iran

In fact Homosexuality in Iran is complex, Khomeini permitted the first sex change operation and thus sex change operations are legal in Iran and paid for by their Government.

One of the problems is under Iranian law, to prove ANY sex crime you need at least FOUR witnesses or a confession. This follows Mohammad's rule on Adultery (His youngest wife missed a movement and was picked up by another man, under traditional Arab Law, that was enough to prove Adultery, Mohammad changed the rule to one of Confession in open court OR with at least four witnesses to the actual act of Adultery. Since his youngest wife would NOT confess and since they was only the man who meet her, and he denied having sex with her, no witnesses no proof of Adultery. Iran expanded that witness requirement to homosexuality. Think about it, how many times have four people saw you have sex??? Or go into a building with someone's wife alone???

Homosexuality in Iran, under those rules is just to hard to prove, thus it is illegal but it is impossible to convict someone of that crime. We have stories of Homosexuals being executed in Iran, but it is hard to confirm those stories (and a few of them, clearly show other crimes were involved, one included espionage).

Russia no longer makes Homosexuality a crime, but it is also legal is discriminate agains Homosexuals:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia

Through it is illegal in Russia to "promote" homosexuality:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_LGBT_propaganda_law

Yes, you can NOT "advocate" for homosexual rights, but homosexuality itself is NOT illegal in Russia.

The Vatican attitude is the ACT of Homosexuality is a sin, but being attracted to people of the same sex is not. One group took two different studies and came up with a 15-58% homosexual rate for Catholic Priests, but once you look at the ACTUAL STUDIES, 15% is the UPPER rate of the number of homosexuals Catholic Priests. One survey found 9% of priest admitted they were attracted to men, another 6% thought they could be (thus the total of 15%) but 58% of priests said they knew of Homosexual groups in their seminaries (i.e. 58% did NOT say they were gay, but that they knew of gay sub culture in their seminaries).

The history of Catholic toleration of Homosexuality has changed over the last 1000 years, In 1102 it is reported by a Saint that homosexuality existed and should be condemned, but not severely (i.e, the Homosexuals told they can NOT have sex with people of the same sex, but no other punishment, including excommunication):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Roman_Catholic_priests

In the 12th and 13th century the Church became more harsh, but this may just reflect the introduction of Linen paper into Europe. Parchment, the previous form of "Paper" was expensive, thus most people did not use it, instead they talked and wrote on bark and other materials that did not last long. Linen was introduced in the 1300s and being much cheaper then parchment, people actually started to write down day to day activities as opposed to what happened this year. The introduction of Linen into Europe is what permitted the invention of the printing press, without linen paper, the printing press was NOT profitable for parchment was to rare and expensive to produce a lot of copies of one book (and that included the bible, in the days of parchment the local Church had a bible, but no one else in the village and at times the local church would NOT have a bible, for it was to expensive).

Thus anytime you read about the 12th, 13th or 14th century, you have remember how revolutionary linen paper was. It was a bigger improvement then modern laptops over manual typewriters to give you an idea of HOW revolutionary that technology (Linen Paper) was (Today, most paper in pulp paper, invented in 1801 but not in widespread use till the 1850s, pulp paper permitted what we call "Newspapers" today, Newspaper were known in the 1700s, but linen paper, while much cheaper then Parchment, still was to expensive to be read once and thrown away, that took pulp paper).

Anyway, but to the Catholic Church and Homosexuality, While some people trace the increasing opposition to homosexuality to the 12th-14th century, the real big change and persecution of homosexuals started in the 1500s, as syphilis ran through Europe. Syphilis (Through they have been efforts to disprove this) appears to have been introduced into Europe when Columbus return from the Caribbean in 1493 (The first reported case is on a sailor on the return trip). Like AIDS in the late 20th Century, it seems to have entered the Male Homosexuality community and spread throughout Europe. While syphilis is spread through any sexual relationship, (Gay or Straight) and thus spread rapidly into the world of Prostitution, the number of sexual contacts most lesbians have is much less then male Homosexuals and even Heterosexuals (this can be seen in the highest rate in AIDS infection is with male homosexuals, Heterosexuals are much lower, but Lesbians are even lower).

Back to syphilis. Syphilis was quickly seen as a disease spread by sex, thus prostitution AND male homosexuality came under attack in an effort to contain syphilis. This attack on both continued till Sulfa Drugs, then Penicillin and later Tetracycline became the drugs of choice to treat people with syphilis. Unlike AIDS, syphilis is NOT a virus thus drugs that kill off invading germs are effective against syphilis.

Side note: Syphilis has a hard time entering the brain, the water barrier around the brain can keep syphilis out for up to three months after infection. Sulfa Drugs (c1912) and Penicillin (c 1944) can NOT enter that same water barrier, thus both would be effective if the syphilis was caught in the first few weeks in a person's body, but if the syphilis had penetrated the water barrier, you had it for the rest of your life or until Tetracycline came into use in 1954 (It is believed that both Hitler and Stalin had Syphilis, and either did not get treatment in time or was infected before Sulfa Drugs came on the market).

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/may/17/syphilis-sex-fear-borgias

The Speed in which Syphilis spread in the 1490s is remarkable, but you have to remember in the 1490s Spain was fighting a war in North Africa, in Italy and its leading ally and trading partner was England. Thus Spain was the perfect spot in Europe for a new disease to spread like wild fire. England was also allied with the Hanastic League (Which controlled the Baltic trade at that time period) and Russia at the same time period. A Sailor could go from Spain to Tunisia, to Italy back to Spain and then to London, Copenhagen and even Moscow with just a few years. If that sailor was just leaving Syphilis in local prostitution (or with male homosexuals he meet in when he hit port), Syphilis could go in both directions at the same time.

Small Pox did a larger number on Native Americans at the same time period, but Small pox only needed humans to be NEAR each other, to spread Syphilis required sex. Thus by the time Pizarro hit Peru in the 1540s, Small pox was already hitting the Incas and that was with VERY limited trade between Mexico and Peru at that time period (No where near the trade going on in Europe at the same time period).

Within 20 years of Syphilis hitting Europe, you had the Protestant reformation and an increase in discrimination against Homosexuals (Mostly because it quickly became clear Syphilis was a sex spread disease and sex outside of marriage became more and more intoleranted.

Before you condemn the people of that time period, they were trying to solve a problem that was epidemic, without MOST of the tools available today. The only tool they had was to restrict HOW the disease was spread, and that meant increase restrictions on sex outside of marriage. Thus the increasing intolerance of both Prostitution and Homosexuality. That was the only tool they had, and they used it. By 1600 Syphilis was under "Control". it was no longer spreading like the wild fire it had been in the 1490s but remain a major plague till Sulfa Drugs in 1912, Penicillin in 1944 and finally Tetracycline in 1954.

Syphilis and its rapid spread starting in the 1490s is probably the best explanation for the increase intolerance of male homosexuality in the 1500s and why Homosexuality was criminal till after the invention of Tetracycline in 1954 (Most countries and US States started to make Homosexuality legal in the 1960s).

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
20. Touched by all the concern in this thread.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 05:57 PM
Mar 2014

Not a fucking word about the Tatar journalist beaten nearly to death in Crimea...

This instance is of course deplorable.

 

go west young man

(4,856 posts)
22. Josh it's definitely sad about the fellow your writing about.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 06:12 PM
Mar 2014

But the news here is that this was a leader of the new government beating the head of the Ukranian news network on camera for all the world to see. The context is quite different from what goes on between regular citizens and government officials and major new outlets. I think that is why NBC decided to put out the story. They are adjusting their flow of information to suit what has been obvious to many of us from the get go.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
23. Reminds me of the congressman at this past SOTU.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 06:30 PM
Mar 2014

In Russia you wouldn't even see this sort of thing because your cameras get confiscated and you are silenced.

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
27. Lock this douche bag up.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 10:19 PM
Mar 2014

This should be shown all over Ukraine as an example of what to expect from these RW hacks.
Ukraine, Crimea, Russia, they all seem to be a breeding ground for wing nuts.
Not that we don't have them here, the KKK comes to mind...

MBS

(9,688 posts)
31. US Embassy statement
Thu Mar 20, 2014, 08:54 AM
Mar 2014

From the US Embassy in Kyiv:

http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/statements/embassy-svoboda.html

Statement of the U.S. Embassy on the Abuse of UT-1’s Oleksandr Panteleymonov by Members of the “Svoboda” Party

March 19, 2014

The United States Embassy in Kyiv condemns the heavy-handed bullying and physical abuse of Mr. Oleksandr Panteleymonov, head of Ukraine’s National Television Channel, UT-1, by members of the political party “Svoboda” on March 18. We welcome today’s statements by both Prime Minister Yatsenyuk and Minister of Interior Avakov decrying this behavior as unacceptable. We urge the Svoboda party to discipline Svoboda MP Ihor Miroshnychenko and other party members involved in the incident.

We, along with many Ukrainians, are deeply offended by this incident, which was not an exercise in patriotism, but instead a reminder of the thug-like tactics previously employed by the Yanukovych regime. This behavior has no place in a Ukraine committed to defending democracy, civil liberties, and individual freedoms, particularly press freedoms. Over the past months, we have commented positively on Svoboda’s productive, indeed key, role during the Maidan protests and in the peaceful transition to a new, more transparent government. We welcome Svoboda leader Tyahnybok’s repeated statement of his commitment to building a modern, European and democratic political party. This is particularly important now that Svoboda had become a part of government. However, this incident is unacceptable in a modern, democratic society.

We applaud the timely announcement by Prosecutor General Makhnytsky that his office will conduct a criminal investigation into the incident and urge the Svoboda party to cooperate fully. We expect all Ukrainians to protect and honor their democratic rights and freedoms as well as those of others.
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