Mark Emmert rips NCAA unionization

[alp227]

Source: ESPN

ARLINGTON, Texas -- Change is coming to the NCAA, but it's not necessarily the sort of change athletes would want entirely.

In a wide-ranging press conference at the Final Four, NCAA president Mark Emmert and other college administrators discussed pending change to the governance structure that will likely include cost of attendance and autonomy for the power conferences.

But the group drew a line in the sand at the thought of unionization for athletes.

"To be perfectly frank, the notion of using a union employee model to address the challenges that do exist in intercollegiate athletics is something that strikes most people as a grossly inappropriate solution to the problems," Emmert said Sunday. "It would blow up everything about the collegiate model of athletics."

Read more: http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/10738559/mark-emmert-ncaa-president-says-unionization-attempt-grossly-inappropriate

[rurallib]

1. the slave labor model

[dlwickham]

3. so people are rounded up and forced to play college sports?

[alp227]

5. They don't get just compensation for use of their likenesses in commercial use.

that's an issue Kain Colter brought up: "Among its demands, CAPA is seeking financial coverage for former players with sports-related medical expenses, independent concussion experts to be placed on the sidelines during games and the creation of an educational trust fund to help former players graduate."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-northwestern-union-bid-20140326,0,247403,full.story

[cstanleytech]

40. I have no real objection to the players getting compensation but if they do then shouldnt all

grants and scholarships go bye bye? I mean fair is fair and it would hardly be fair to let them double dip which is what they would be getting if they still had scholarships and grants.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

11. How EA Sports Profits Off College Athletes—Without Paying Them

http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2013/05/09/1989561/how-ea-sports-profits-off-college-athleteswithout-paying-them/

[dsc]

17. a better analogy would be indentured servitude

in order for a person to play either pro football or pro basketball, but fancy that not pro baseball or golf, one has to play at the college level for one year for basketball and four for football (or at least has to sit out the time)

[dlwickham]

50. actually you're wrong

the NBA does draft kids out of high school

LeBron James for one

[dsc]

56. not any more

the year or maybe two years after they drafted him they put in a rule saying that an athlete has to wait a year. That is why those Kentucky freshman are in the NCAA and not the NBA and why they are leaving at the end of this year.

[aggiesal]

2. What they'll do is ...

pay the atheletes, but no more scholarships.
The atheletes will have to pay for their tuition.

[delrem]

4. If it's a purely commercial enterprise, why associate it with educational institutions at all? nt

[paleotn]

10. Exactly. (nt)

[eggplant]

8. If there is collective bargaining, then this isn't a one-sided negotiation.

Athletes could demand tuition plus benefits and pay. Just like any work-study students. Graduate Assistants at SUNY are unionized, for example. They get tuition, pay, healthcare, guaranteed holidays...

[Chan790]

54. Shhhh! Don't let facts or reality get in the way of some people's good tizzy.

Don't ya know? They got a a hair up their fanny about this; they don't need someone on the internet coming along and pointing out such things, making them look ridiculous.

[bitchkitty]

57. LOL n/t

[paleotn]

6. Well, blow it up then, damn it!....

....and in it's place create a minor league system similar to professional baseball. Never happen, I know, but that still doesn't change the fact that the student-athlete paradigm in major college revenue sports is complete bullshit. Close to home, the still unfolding disaster at UNC is just a case in point.

http://www.newsobserver.com/unc-scandal/

...and tell me the same doesn't go on damn near everywhere in Div. I.

[unc70]

20. Things about to get more interesting at UNC

Do not believe anything from Mary Willingham (the so-called whistleblower) or her business partner, professor Jay Smith. Nor much of the N&O reporting by Dan Kane.

Willingham has repeatedly made false statements under oath while breaking Federal privacy laws involving FERPA, ADA, and human research. She currently claims credit for exposing the paper-only classes that were actually found and reported by UNC and Gov Martin.

Previously, Willingham was proclaimed a whistleblower by Kane for claiming that she had reported cheating by a tutor to UNC officials and they took no action (coverup). Only problem with that, no one seemed to ask until too late, but what Willingham had witnessed had actually been handled properly by UNC. It would have been hard for MW to claim she had not learned of UNC's actions; this was the infamous incident involving Jennifer Wiley and Michael McAdoo.

A decade ago, Willingham told friends online of her intent to expose and take down the powerful white men exploiting black men in college sports. I think she has now been too clever by half, but not half clever enough.

UNC could not make any response without risk of accusations of retaliation. Willingham is now part of at least two criminal investigations, and she seems to be flaunting her disdain for Federal statutes.

BTW on a related topic, the NC SoS investigation of sports agents has evidence of illegal cash payments to hundreds of students at dozens if schools around the country. Interesting trials on the way.

[tarheelsunc]

7. Look at the "liberal media" pushing an agenda!

Change is coming to the NCAA, but it's not necessarily the sort of change athletes would want entirely.

I've read countless comment sections of ESPN articles where people complain about ESPN having a liberal bias in their political stories. But seriously, claiming athletes don't want unionization without giving any evidence of that? They are pushing an agenda, all right... but it's definitely not liberal.

[a2liberal]

23. I think you misunderstood that

I don't think the article is claiming that athletes don't want unionization, but the opposite. They're saying that things are changing but not going as far as the unionization that the athletes would want.

[former9thward]

38. There is no evidence student athletes want unionization.

The NLRB complaint was an isolated instance involving the Steelworkers Union and a few former student athletes. It will be overturned by the NLRB DC office.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

9. Emmert made $1.7 million, according to NCAA tax return

NCAA President Mark Emmert was credited with nearly $1.7 million in compensation during the 2011 calendar year, according to the association's new federal tax return.

That calendar year was Emmert's first in the position, in which succeeded the late Myles Brand.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/2013/07/10/ncaa-mark-emmert-salary-million-tax-return/2505667/


And he didn't have to take a single helmet to helmet shot to the head.

[choie]

15. and let's not forget

that the NCAA is tax-exempt...

[customerserviceguy]

30. You mean like college scholarships are?

If student-athletes become "employees", then it naturally follows that all compensation becomes taxable wages, not only for Federal income tax purposes, but for FICA, Medicare and unemployment comp tax purposes, as well.

Are athletes who don't make the pros ready to foot a bill for back taxes on the full-ride scholarships they received? I guess that would make them a little more equal with students who had to borrow to the hilt to finance their educations.

[Sgent]

35. That's a strawman

"If student-athletes become "employees", then it naturally follows that all compensation becomes taxable wages"

No it doesn't naturally follow. Just because your an employee for union purposes doesn't mean you fit the requirement for other purposes (Wage and Hour Law), and even if you do, it doesn't mean your compensation has to be paid in any particular way (beyond minimum wage).

An athlete union could advocate for guaranteed scholarships (4 years rather than 1 year currently) so if the student is injured they aren't tossed out on the street. They can advocate for medical coverage and post playing days medical coverage (rather than using the individual's health insurance) and the implementation of the same (ie can a student see their own specialist or only the schools). They can advocate for changes in practice / game hours, not increasing the number of games (10 years ago the maximum number of games was 12 for a national title, now its 15), the ability to take a summer job, etc.

There are a lot of issues in an athletes life other than their wage.

[customerserviceguy]

44. Tell me another situation

where "wages" in the form of some significant material benefit are not taxable income.

What's to stop the IRS from pursuing scholarships as income if athletes are considered employees? Nothing I can see. I do think your ideas are sound, but they can be supplied by insurance policies tailored to the needs of college athletes, and by indeed, setting reasonable rules on how much practice and playing time are required of a student.

Besides, if you like the principle of "From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs" then I can't think of anything more in tune with that ideal than the way that NCAA money is collected and distributed to student athletes of all sorts of sports, especially the ones that don't generate any income in excess of expenses.

[Sgent]

45. How about every other scholarship / fellowship

keep in mind that we are dealing with a specific portion of the tax code that is written differently than the general income tax guidelines.

Treasury Regulation 1.117-4 makes no distinction between an athletic scholarship and any other type of scholarship or fellowship. Amounts paid, including amounts paid for services provided (think graduate assistants), which go towards tuition, books, fees, etc. are tax exempt, and amounts above that are taxable.

Ruling that football players are employees would have no net effect on their taxes owed. A more aggressive stance by the IRS would wind up entrapping a broad range of scholarship recipients other than just athletes.

[customerserviceguy]

47. Are graduate assistants ever unionized?

That might be the game-changer.

In any case, if this passes, college athletics will become a thing of the past. Some sort of football and basketball farm systems will spring up to take their place, and it will mean the end of a way for a working class person to get a good education without tons of student loan debt. Also, the loss of funds to colleges will just cause tuitions to rise for everybody.

Institutions who make money off of student loans must be rubbing their hands together at the prospect of this going through.

[Sgent]

48. Yes there

are unions that cover some graduate assistants (this started in the 90's).

I agree about the impact on college sports, and have mixed feelings, but the tax consequences aren't a primary driver for or against the idea of paying athletes IMHO.

[eggplant]

59. Yes. See my post #8.

My wife was a GA at SUNY Albany for a number of years. It covered her full tuition and we paid tax on the rest (since she didn't have other qualified expenses). There is even a tax form for it. Google "1098 T" for lots of info.

[Chan790]

55. What's to stop the IRS from pursuing scholarships as income?

Other than the fact that this situation already exists elsewhere in academia and the IRS concluded it's not taxable?

It's not uncommon for corporations, particularly tech companies, to hire paid interns (competition for the handful of the best) whose compensation packages include scholarships. Some of these interns are very highly paid, up to $3000/month w/ benefits and full-ride scholarships.

What is the IRS's interpretation? The wages and benefits are taxable. The scholarships are not...but the company/institution cannot write-off the scholarship amount either. I'd assume the same rules apply in the case of scholarshipped compensated student-athletes.

Further, there's no necessity that student-athletes be paid for performance...it would be sufficient if the NCAA would strip its own bylaw that forbids student athletes from working (on-or-off-campus) for pay or accepting work-study. It's beyond absurd that any student athlete can lose their scholarship, be barred from competition and get their program put on competitive probation for taking the same shitty job working retail or fast-food that most students take during college.

[customerserviceguy]

64. Perhaps the exemption will apply

However, in the course of doing one's graduate assistant "job", that activity can be held to be a significant part of that person's education. It's going to be tough to make this case with most sports, unless the person is a PE major.

I do like your idea about allowing athletes to have jobs outside of school, but I'm sure the rule is in place to prevent the funnelling of money to athletes for do-nothing jobs that are simply bribes to attend a particular school. We'd have to come up with a way of dealing with that possibility.

[Manuel Beingman]

27. What could possibly justify a salary like that?

Not utility, and not the "free market," either.

[bluestateguy]

12. Unions are for working people

Not grown men who play a children's game.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

14. What an ignorant statement.

...

[alp227]

16. a children's game that happens to be a big part of the economy?

I guess "democracy in the workplace" isn't for everyone, then?

[LovingA2andMI]

21. Since when is being a STUDENT-ATHLETE....

Not work? They work in school for grades, they train in many cases nine months a year for the sport, they play the sport for the school -- which is WORK by the way. I agree ForgoTheConsequence....the above statement was indeed ignorant.

[rpannier]

28. So you oppose the NFLPA, MLB Player's Assoc, etc???

What an odd thing to say

[dlwickham]

51. or for millionaires who work for other millionaires

or in some case billionaires like Mark Cuban

[Yavin4]

63. Envy of your fellow working man is a tool of the 1% to destroy faith in unions.

Look if you labor for someone, you should have your rights protected no matter if you're making min. wage at McDonalds or if you're a writer making $900,000 a year on "The Big Bang Theory". You're both laborers.

[Brickbat]

13. Aw, lookit.

The NCAA is scared.

[jtuck004]

18. "It would blow up everything about the collegiate model of athletics." < With any luck. n/t

[7962]

19. Here's something I havent seen anyone mention: If they're employees, then scholarships are taxable,

because they are worth money, which means they are also taxable for any other scholarship student in any other sport. And then what about academic scholarships? Would they be exempt? Would a college with a sub-par record just do away with football or whatever sport in order to not have to pay?

[LovingA2andMI]

22. As a former Graduate Assistant...

My scholarship worth up to 90% of the tuition was NOT taxable and a G.A. works plenty less than a STUDENT-ATHLETE. The NCAA will live....and they need to pay these STUDENT-ATHLETES just like they pay a G.A. or any other student worker receiving a salary. PERIOD!

[7962]

31. But this ruling could change the status of your scholarship if the IRS wants to do it.

And we all know they're liable to look for a buck anywhere. Maybe it wont happen, but I think its a possibility. I think its more likely that we end up with just a handful of teams ruling the field and many schools just dumping their programs all together.

[LovingA2andMI]

32. So you would believe it is best to continue....

Treating STUDENT-ATHLETES like Indentured Servants. The school weeps all the profit while the STUDENT-ATHLETE is just "happy" to have a partial or full scholarship, which can only be maintained by meeting various conditions (such as practicing their sport up to 9 months a year).

Sorry, but this in my opinion is ridiculous.

[7962]

43. A lot of folks think the same. But players can also GET A DEGREE. Most arent going pro anyway.

Schools like Notre Dame graduate a large number of athletes; many schools do. FREE education. And from what you say, you know the value of that. Of course, you also have schools like Auburn, who will take players tossed from other teams.
I do think they should pay the students something. I also think that if the schools make money with players in video games then they should have to put aside some in a fund for after school. But if this goes through, we'll end up with more money being spent on sports programs that make money and a lot of others, like swimming, gymnastics, etc, done away with completely. Not to mention having just a few schools dominate.
I could be wrong, and I guess we'll find out if this progresses.

[Sgent]

46. No it wouldn't

Payments to students for services are exempt from taxation to the extent that they go for tuition, books, fees, etc. See Pub 970 and Treasury Regulation 1.117-4

[7962]

49. But once they are considered employees, the scholarship could be considered payment, couldnt it?

Again, its up to the IRS I would think. A lot of rules may change. I guess we'll see in the near future if it happens.

[eggplant]

60. No.

Google "1098 T". Money paid to the student for services can go towards tuition and expenses. Any excess is considered taxable.

These are well established IRS rules, and already apply to unionized graduate assistants, for example. The GAs at SUNY Albany are unionized, for example. They get all the benefits that regular state workers get.

[dlwickham]

52. when I was a GA my scholarship wasn't taxable

but my stipend was because I worked for it

[Puzzledtraveller]

62. it's conveniently omitted by supporters

[SoapBox]

24. And then what's next...?

High school, Junior High, Grade School and then Pre-School?

OK, so the College types want to be Union...then we are talking a WHOLE different game and how the college sports work...Now THAT will be one big old shocker for these folks that felt that their egos were being damaged and that they should be getting paid.

FIRE ALL the teams and start over...and then let us know how that being union in college worked out for ya.

(I support union membership...but I do NOT support STUPID union membership.)

[alp227]

25. Well, high school sports aren't as commercialized as college sports.

The issues brought up by Kain Colter like practice time and concussion examiners are unique to the needs of college student-athletes. Don't make a slippery slope argument "high school, etc" High school and youth athletes already have all sorts of laws and regulations protecting them, and youth athletes do NOT have similar commercial use of their likenesses unlike college athletes.

[former9thward]

39. Very, very few college athletes have commercial use of their likenesses.

I live in the biggest college town in the U.S. and I have never seen the likenesses of any athletes being used commercially. I am not saying it does not happen but it is rare.

[happyslug]

26. Are such High School Player activities "Sport" related 40-50 hours per week?

The National Labor Relations finding was that such Collage Student Athletes were under the control of their Coaches 40-50 hours per week most of the year. That does NOT include time in school for classes. Thus if you have a high school student athlete, whose coach is telling him or her what to do 40-50 hours per week and it is NOT related to his or her other classes, then yes, they can be unionized for then they would also being under the control of someone 40-50 hours a week, like any other employee.

Remember the key finding was the 40-50 hours of CONTROL the COACH had over the FOOTBALL Players every week. This included weight lifting, studying game plans, and practice. High School Coaches would like to do that same level, but can't for High Schools are NOT set up for such a level of control. Outside of Football and Basketball, I doubt Collage coaches of other sports have that level of control over their players.

Thus the finding of the National Labor Relations Board is a very narrow ruling. Collages could get around it by reducing practice so the player is under the direction and control of his coaches no more then 20 hours per week.

Remember they are ONLY 168 hours in a Seven day work week. It is recommended that you get eight hours of sleep per night, Eight time Seven is 56 hours of sleep, that leaves 112 hours for other activities. Most people take about an hour to eat each day, thus 21 hours a week is "Wasted" on eating, leaving 91 hours for other activities. Class AND homework to prepare for class should take about 40 to 50 hours,. Thus if Football activities take up 40-50 hours, these football players have NO time for anything else.

These time constraints is what keep practice, planning and even games limited in High school to less then 20 hours a week. At such time schedule the National Labor Relations board will probably find no full time work and thus not EMPLOYMENT, as that term is used in the National Labor Relations Act.

On the other hand, if your local high school is running the lives of their football players 40-50 hours per week, I can see the same ruling, but something tells me, your local high school is NOT operating at such a schedule for their Football and Basketball players, but if they are, why should such employees (for that what they will be) form a union?

[LovingA2andMI]

33. Exactly on point!

Last edited Mon Apr 7, 2014, 11:36 PM - Edit history (1)

And there is a HUGE THING such as the Fair Standards Labor Act which has strict work hour requirements for minors up to and including a limit on how many hours work and school can combine in a given week. So the pearl analogy that if College Players are unionized then "How about High School, Junior High School and Elementary Sports Players" would never apply as minors are NOT adults and are subject to different standards under FSLA.

[Ash_F]

37. If college students learn the importance of collective representation,

then that is good for the country.

[DiverDave]

29. Making money of someones labor? I thought that was

was the definition of a job.
The ncaa made 1.2 BILLION off the tv rights alone from the
basketball tournament in '12.
What, they couldn't share a bit?
Scholarship athletes get 30 bucks for meals on weekends
30 dollars for a 6'6" 260 young man?
The ncaa is a scam.

[unc70]

34. They did share that money

The money received by the NCAA is distributed in many ways, much of it back to the schools and a large portion designated for specific benefits for the 450,000 NCAA student athletes. BTW insurance against catastrophic injuries is provided by the NCAA for all athletes.

[DiverDave]

36. Ok, then what about the rest?

And no justification for the rest? all the other obscene profits?
The ncaa is a scam for rich guys to get richer.

Why defend that?

[unc70]

61. How the NCAA actually distributes the money

How the NCAA distributes its money and how much to whom will surprise many of you:

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/finances/distributions

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/2012-13_Revenue_Distribution_Plan.pdf

[Calista241]

41. Obscene profits

There's a handful of universities that make any profit. And any profit they do make is not just sitting in the bank somewhere, they're investing that money in scholarships, facilities, and paying other university related expenses.

Yes, coaches make a lot of money. However, there is only one Nick Saban in all of college sports. Most of them are well paid, but they are also risking a lot to do those jobs.

The vast majority of athletic departments make no profit and have to be subsidized by the rest of the school. The university of Maryland is leaving their conference because they had to run a HUGE deficit. Do you think they have the money to pay their football players and all their other student athletes playing a zillion other sports?

[WhoWoodaKnew]

42. I just went to Northwestern's website to lookup the cost of tution, etc and

it says the following. Does it really cost 63k a year??




Cost of Attendance

The basic formula used to calculate the cost of attendance for the 2013-14 academic year is as follows:


$45,120 - Tuition
$407 - Fees (Health $200, ASG $162, Athletic $45)
$13,862* - Room and Board
$1,878 - Books and Supplies
$1,926 - Personal Expenses
$35 - Loan Fee
Transportation Varies

$63,228 - Cost of Attendance

[dlwickham]

53. it's one of the top schools in the nation

and how much do the perks that athletes get cost the school?

[Ash_F]

58. Wow, what a scam. /nt