East Ukraine militants snub Geneva deal on crisis

[dipsydoodle]

Source: BBC News

Pro-Russian separatists in Donetsk say they will not leave the government building there, defying the Kiev authorities and threatening a new international deal on Ukraine.

The separatists' spokesman told the BBC that the Kiev government was "illegal", so they would not go until the Kiev government stepped down.

Russia, Ukraine, the EU and US earlier agreed that illegal military groups in Ukraine must leave official buildings.

They reached the deal in Geneva.

Alexander Gnezdilov, spokesman for the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, said his group would evacuate the government building in the eastern city only when the "illegal" Kiev government vacated parliament and the presidential administration.

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27076226

[jakeXT]

1. Russia will be unable to recognize Ukraine elections if campaign continues in such "unacceptable fo

Russia will be unable to recognize Ukraine elections if campaign continues in such "unacceptable forms" - Putin

Russian President Vladimir Putin believes that the current election campaign in Ukraine has unacceptable forms, and if it continues to take place in such forms, the Russian authorities will not be able to recognize the legitimacy of Ukraine's upcoming presidential polls.

"The presidential race is proceeding in absolutely unacceptable forms. If it continues like this, we certainly will be unable to recognize the events that will follow May 25 [the Ukrainian presidential elections] as legitimate," Putin said during his annual Q&A session on Thursday.

"What legitimate elections are you talking about if candidates from the east (of Ukraine) are being beaten and pelted with ink all the time, and are not being allowed to meet their voters? What kind of election campaign are you talking about?" the Russian president said.

http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/201168.html

Sounds like a dilemma

[newthinking]

2. Opposition candidates being beaten is not covered well in our media

There never was a chance of a fair election. I really don't think the current government has any interest in making a level playing field for Democracy.

[jakeXT]

3. It's a strange story

(Reuters) - A Ukrainian presidential candidate, known for his radical pro-Russia views, was beaten early on Tuesday by a crowd that took exception to comments he made in a television interview.

...

Angry crowds gathered at the studio's offices after his interview and tempers rose after word went round that police had found weapons in his car outside. Video footage from the scene showed guns and cartridge clips.

...

He was hustled into a waiting ambulance but members of a far-right nationalist group Right Sector seized him and drove him first to the headquarters of the state security service and then to the prosecutor's office.

Standing bare to the waist and with a black eye and scratches to his face, Tsarev told journalists: "I did not ask for Russian troops to be sent in. I am categorically against this. I am against a third party interfering in the affairs of Ukraine. Until we learn to listen to each other, Ukraine will stand no chance."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/15/us-ukraine-crisis-candidate-idUSBREA3E0HQ20140415

[newthinking]

4. Here is a video showing the beating and treatment of the opposition candidate - free elections...

watch this and tell me how free those elections will be.

Ukrainian presidential candidate Oleg Tsarev leaving a television interview

[jakeXT]

9. Eggs are a tradition in Ukraine it seems, but they should regulate it to one egg per person not in

the eyes, not from close distance etc.

What worries me more is the Right Sector/ Svoboda acting as law enforcement

[Igel]

15. You miss the irony.

There are three sides on display here.

There are the Ukrainian nationalists/government folk. They're in the wings. You don't see them except by extension.

There are people like Dobkin and Tsar'ev. They're RP folk. They're presidential candidates. They're being beaten from time to time. They're being pelted with eggs. They're being "greened". (And it's not dye, it's this thick green slurry--perhaps paint, perhaps some sort of dyed flour mixtuer, I can't tell from the vids.) These are the people being called persecuted by Putin, that Putin defends, and which must be protected.

We've seen people "greened" before. They were the Ukrainian nationalists/government folk. They're in favor of a free Ukrainian Ukraine, plus whatever else. That color's somehow been associated with Ukraine even in a Bulgakov play from the interwar period.

The people *doing* the greening are pro-Russian Russian-speakers now as before. Except that the politicians being greened are being splattered because by running for presidential office they're affirming that these areas, Slov'ansk, Donetsk, etc., are Ukraininan. Of course, the militants there are also defended by Putin, who calls them "peaceful protesters" that Ukraine also has to defend. He's for whichever one gets him the most mileage, and his mouthpieces leave out who either the agent or the victim is, as necessary to communicate the real message.

In other words, politicians Putin supports are being pelted by protesters Putin supports, and Putin says, "You need to stop having innocent pro-federalization politicians pelted by the bad guys," which are assumed to be Ukrainian fascists and thugs. Unless you read between the lines and realize that the shouting is in Russian, the areas where this is happening are in the "Donetsk Republic", and this is where the reports are that non-DR folk expressing anti-DR views have to be protected if they gather because if they're individuals they get threatened, taunted, and beaten for their political views. By the "non-fascist, peaceful" protesters.

[newthinking]

17. Sure. In Kiev, yeah right... Nice attempt - Another From WSJ

[dipsydoodle]

5. From 2 years ago : May 2012

Brawl erupts in Ukraine parliament over Russian language bill.

Violent scuffles broke out in the Ukrainian Rada on Thursday as deputies debated the bill which would allow the official use of Russian language in certain parts of the country.

The brawl erupted between deputies loyal to Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich and lawmakers from pro-Western opposition parties, who want to preserve Ukraine's cultural and political independence from its powerful neighbour Russia.

The law being debated proposes to allow the use of Russian as an official language equal to Ukrainian in some civic institutions such as schools, hospitals and courts in regions where a Russian-speaking population is in the majority.

Opposition deputies consider the law as an attempt by Yanukovich's party to divide Ukrainians ahead of upcoming parliamentary elections in October and a threat to the existence of Ukrainian language.

Before the fight, deputies argued that the law would split the country.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/9288953/Brawl-erupts-in-Ukraine-parliament-over-Russian-language-bill.html includes video

From last week or so :

Ukrainian MPs brawl as nationalists are accused of playing into Russia's hands.

A brawl erupted in the Ukrainian parliament chamber after the country's communist leader accused nationalists of playing into the hands of Russia by adopting extreme tactics early in the Ukrainian crisis.

Two deputies from the Svoboda far-right nationalist party took exception to the charges by communist Petro Symonenko and seized him while he was talking from the rostrum. His supporters rallied to his defence and a brawl broke out with deputies from other parties joining in and trading punches.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/08/ukraine-russia-plan-divide-country-operation includes video

[jakeXT]

10. We don't like what you have to say

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017185811

[dipsydoodle]

12. Maybe its an annual event

the date of which changes just like Easter.

[msongs]

6. all this orchestrated by putin. he's a busy homophobe these days nt

[newthinking]

7. Add the President and PM of Ukraine - Right wing homophobes

Even the quote "moderate" fatherland" party is to the right close to our tea party and folks get down on liberals here for pointing that out.

Does anyone even research these guys?

New Ukraine President
In August 2007, Turchynov replied to the accusation that his stance on same-sex marriage is typically conservative, "I do not agree. If a man has normal views, then you label him a conservative, but those who use drugs or promote sodomy, you label them a progressive person. All of these are perversions".http://web.archive.org/web/20080820220202/http://www.lgf.org.uk/news/research-2/overview-of-lesbian-and-gay-rights-in-eastern-europe/

Oleksandr Turchynov is an elder in a conservative Evangelical Church. We know how Evangelical Churches view gays.

Ukrainian PM
Ukraine Opposition Surprises Supporters by Denouncing Gay Marriage (Fatherland leader and now Prime Minister)
http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/news-releases/ukraine-opposition-surprises-supporters-by-denouncing-gay-marriage-198940821.html

Svoboda is heavily anti-gay

Member of parliament Ihor Miroshnychenko asked the head of the Kiev City State Administration Oleksandr Popov on 7 March 2013 to ban an LGBT march that was held the next day because he believed it would "contribute to promoting sexual orientation" and he further stated in his request "homosexuality provokes sexually transmitted diseases and AIDS". The 8 March rally was in fact not an LGBT march but organized by feminist organizations.

Need we even mention the further right parties that are involved?

[dipsydoodle]

11. That may be part of the background to this :

EU dumps gays, says Ukraine can have visa-free travel without “non-negotiable” LGBT non-discrim guarantee.

The European Union has reportedly, yet again, dropped its “non-negotiable” demand that a country adopt laws protecting its gay and trans citizens from discrimination, as a pre-requisite to visa free travel within the EU — this time, in Ukraine.

While Ukraine will move forward with passing the necessary non-discrimination law covering race and religion, gays and trans people (“sexual minorities”) have been dropped from the list of demands by the European Commission, according to reports coming from Ukraine today.

(UPDATE: The EU is denying the report. But I suspect that the Ukrainians let slip the truth, and the EU is now doing damage control over the obvious repercussions of staking out a decidedly anti-human-rights position in the middle of a major human rights crisis.)

Interestingly, part of the reason the EU demands such legislation is that it doesn’t want a flood of refugees when it adopts visa-free travel with a region that oppresses its own people.

http://americablog.com/2014/03/eu-dumps-gays-says-ukraine-can-visa-free-travel-without-non-negotiable-lgbt-non-discrim-guarantee.html

[Catherina]

8. In all fairness, Kiev's FM announced that Kiev isn't bound by its recommendations

Taken from http://rt.com/news/kiev-troops-southeast-ukraine-244/

"All sides must refrain from any violence, intimidation or provocative actions. The participants strongly condemned and rejected all expressions of extremism, racism and religious intolerance, including antisemitism," the joint statement said."

"Despite calls for a peaceful dialogue in the document on Ukraine adopted in Geneva, the coup-imposed Ukrainian Foreign Minister said it will not affect the “anti-terrorist” operation in the East of the country and the troops will remain there.

Soon after the Geneva document, adopted at a four-side meeting between Ukraine, the US, the EU and Russia, was published, Ukraine’s acting Foreign Minister Andrey Deshchytsa said Kiev is not bound by its recommendations.

According to Deshchytsa cited by RIA Novosti, “the troops in the East of the country are carrying out a special operation and can remain where they are.”

Hopefully the US will talk some sense into Kiev and Russia will talk some sense into Donetsk.

[dipsydoodle]

13. East Ukraine separatists stay put despite diplomatic deal

Last edited Fri Apr 18, 2014, 08:29 AM - Edit history (1)

(Reuters) - Armed pro-Russian separatists were still holding public buildings in eastern Ukraine on Friday, saying they needed more assurances about their security before they comply with an international deal ordering them to disarm.

The agreement, brokered by the United States, Russia, Ukraine and the European Union in Geneva on Thursday offered the best hope to date of defusing a stand-off in Ukraine that has dragged East-West relations to their lowest level since the Cold War.

Enacting the agreement on the ground though will be difficult, because of the deep mistrust between the pro-Russian groups and the Western-backed government in Kiev, which this week flared into violent clashes that killed several people.

The fact any deal was reached at all came as a surprise, and it was not immediately clear what had happened behind the scenes to persuade the Kremlin, which had up to that point shown little sign of compromise, to join calls on the militias to disarm.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/18/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA3A1B520140418

Ukraine Separatists Stay Put Despite Deal

Sky's Katie Stallard, in Donetsk on Friday morning, said there was no sign of anyone there acting on the deal reached in Geneva at talks attended by the US, Russia, the European Union and Ukraine.

She added: "None of those at the talks directly represented those on the ground, particularly those occupying the buildings."

In Slavyansk, a city that has become a flashpoint in the crisis after men with Kalashnikovs took control last weekend, leaders of the pro-Russian gunmen held a meeting on how to respond to the agreement inside one of the seized buildings.

On the street, there was little change. In front of the Slavyansk mayor's office, men armed with Kalashnikovs peered over sandbags which had been piled higher overnight.

http://news.sky.com/story/1244998/ukraine-separatists-stay-put-despite-deal

[Tommy_Carcetti]

14. Unfortunately, a predictable response.

Russia comes to the table, says one thing.

But the plausible deniability card gets played:

"You see, Russia has no real influence over the militants in Eastern Ukraine. Why, they are just a bunch of Ukrainians fed up with that illegitimate, coup imposed government of neo-nazis in Kyiv! And we cannot speak for them!"

&quot Oh, and by the way, Eastern Ukraine is novorussiya). Wait, did I say that out loud?"

[Catherina]

16. Update. Different interpretations of the Agreement. You Disarm First

...

Ukraine’s coup-imposed acting Foreign Minister Andrey Deshchytsa on Friday confirmed that the so-called “anti-terrorist operation” is continuing in eastern Ukrainian, despite the calls for de-escalation of the crisis stated in the four-side April-17 agreement between Ukraine, Russia, the US and the EU.

...

‘You disarm first’
...

A senior representative of the local Communist Party (KPU) in Slavyansk, which has been in opposition to the coup-imposed Kiev government and supports the federalization of the country with wider powers for the regions, told RIA Novosti that the protesters view the treaty positively and “are ready for compromise.” However, he added that people are concerned with different interpretations of the agreement.

“We watched (Russian Foreign Minister Sergey) Lavrov, we are quite happy with what he has said. But the Ukrainian side has interpreted the agreements in an absolutely different way,” KPU’s Anatoly Khmelevoy told the agency on Friday. “It will not take long to disarm, to dismantle the barricades – but where are the guarantees? (The Kiev authorities) need to reach out to us. The talks of preparing a referendum – we still see no steps in this direction. We need to trust each other, for that we need to sit down at the negotiation table – but no one has so far invited us to talk,” Khmelevoy said.

The self-proclaimed Donetsk Republic meanwhile said it will not follow the treaty’s calls until Kiev starts doing so. Speaking to Itar-Tass, the republic’s chair, Denis Pushilin, said that the Kiev authorities are “refusing to pull back the troops from the territory of the Donetsk Region, and in those conditions it is impossible to talk of compromise.” Kiev “must vacate the seized buildings, disarm the illegal armed groups – the National Guard and the Right Sector – and free all the political prisoners,” Pushilin stressed. “After that, we will be ready for dialogue.”

However, speaking to journalists on Friday, the coup-imposed Ukrainian foreign minister said that Kiev activists do not have to quit Independence Square (Maidan) because it has been occupied “legally.”

...

http://rt.com/news/eastern-ukraine-military-operation-416/

[dipsydoodle]

18. The subject of Independence Square (Maidan)

was discussed live on Sky News here on UK TV by their reporter on the spot . Yes - occupations in the east have no intention of going anywhere while the square in Kiev is occupied.......amongst other things.

[Catherina]

19. I'll look for a link. Sounds interesting

They all need to disarm. Kiev's assertion that the occupations in the West don't need to go anywhere because they're "legal" now is bollocks. I'm going to look for this video, any hints? What else came up?

[dipsydoodle]

20. I don't think you'll find it on the Sky News website.

Might show up if you're able to watch live news on Sky.