Russia Complains Of Large Ukrainian Troop Buildup In East

[Purveyor]

Source: CNN

By Ralph Ellis, Laura Smith-Spark and Gul Tuysuz, CNN
April 26, 2014 -- Updated 2221 GMT (0621 HKT)

Kiev, Ukraine (CNN) -- A perilous faceoff intensified Saturday when Russia state news complained that Ukraine had mobilized 15,000 troops in the suburbs of Slavyansk in eastern Ukraine "in order to wipe out the city and its residents."

Quoting a Russian Defense Ministry source, RIA Novosti said satellite photos showed the force forming around the city that has become a friction point between the Ukraine military and pro-Russian militants.

The Defense Ministry source said the number of Ukraine troops put the pro-Russian militants at a disadvantage because the latter are "armed only with small amount of pistols and shotguns." Many eastern Ukraine residents have Russian roots and sympathize with Moscow.

The source said the photos showed about 160 tanks, 230 infantry combat vehicles and armored personnel carriers, mine throwers and multiple-launch rocket systems.

Read more: http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/26/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/

[Igel]

1. "Mine throwers"?

Really?

For миномет?

Perhaps "mortar." If sufficiently large, "rocket launcher." Usually the former, but if you're looking from space perhaps "rocket launcher" is best.

Ponomar'ov changed his story recently. A couple of weeks ago he said they had automatic weapons and machine guns, grenade launchers and various other weapons in great quantities. They'd boasted of then raiding this police station and this arms depot, etc., etc. They were bristling with arms, armed to the teeth, had AK-100s armed with grenade launchers in both hands and in their back pockets.

When it became clear that there was a large buildup, suddenly his men contained just a few hand guns and some clubs. Even if automatic weapons fire had been observed repeatedly.

It helped that the call for the people of Slov'ansk to form a "living shield" also pretty much fell on deaf ears.

That leaves the question--was Ponomar'ev engaged in serious vran'ye the first time round, lying with some scant basis in truth; or is he lying now, engaging in "yabednichanie" (which is complaining about how poor you are when, well, you're not as poor as all that but want to avoid something unpleasant that getting poor gets you out of).

Strelkov, the guy in charge of the "Donetsk People's Army" or whatever they're calling it today said that he had come with a group from Crimea. And that while there were some locals, they also came from other parts of Ukraine. So they're "Ukrainians" but hardly "locals." Then again, Mozhaev, the guy who in the video shot down the helicopter, is a Russian mercenary. So they're not even all locals.

Then again, this is RIA Novosti. Today a small group of Ukr soldiers in Ukr military uniforms flew in on a chopper and detained a couple of men at a checkpoint. The rest ran. The "checkpoint"overlooked a road but was also next to an old mine with old WWI and WWII weapons that the locals were afraid would fall into the hands of the "National Guard" and other fascist units. The Ukr were then confronted by some miners with shovels and picks, the story goes, and retreated. The men at the checkpoint were poorly armed. The soldiers were terrified of the miners. (This is the miner's version--brave Russian miners, weak, cowardly Ukrainians.)

RIA Novosti got the story as a group of unknown assailants descended from a helicopter and attacked the checkpoint. Presumably to get access to the weapons stores. Who knew who the assailants were? But they needed these old weapons for something. This was also the miners' version, but filtered through the Russian media filter. Sounds ominous. Esp. since there's all this talk about fascist military units moving into the area to kill Russians.

The Ukr army hadn't commented on this, and so the only version that existed (at least as of 45 minutes ago) was the miners' version!

It's the same with trying to sort out the business with the canal bringing irrigation water to the Crimea. One source says the canal was shut off but doesn't say when. Another says that the water flow was simply diminished but doesn't say when. A third says that the canal is going as it has for the last few months, but not what that means. A fourth says that soil salinity is a problem and that's killing the crops. A fifth says that the Ukr government won't sign a water payment contract with Crimea. Yet a 6th says that payment hasn't been made and, IIRC, $0.17 million was owed to date for water. Good luck sorting out which to believe. These were all reported in the same newspaper.

[The Magistrate]

2. Excellent Comment, Sir: Very Helpful

[AnalystInParadise]

4. Yes mine throwers exist

Ours is called the volcano

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcano_mine_system

I am not defending anything Russia says or does, but mine throwers are a very real weapons platform.

[The Magistrate]

5. 'Mine Trower' Is A Pretty Archaic Term, Though, Sir

The original usage was for something we would nowadays call a species of heavy mortar: a fairly simple and cheap tube, usually muzzle-loaded, which threw a large 'bomb' to a distance somewhat less than a field gun fired. They became quite common in the Great War, and continued in service in some smaller armies up to WWII. They did not fire at a high angle like a modern mortar, but the shell would fall pretty sharply so you got a similar effect in engaged trenchworks and such. The low velocity meant the shell could be thin walled, and carry a greater volumn of explosive. In the heavy bombardments of the Great War, they played an important role in wrecking forward trenches. Nowadays 'mine' means only the sort of thing that lies in wait to be stepped on or disturbed otherwise, or detonated by command, but it used to have a much wider application, taking in just about anything explosive that was not specifically shell fired from a cannon. 'Torpedo' had a similarly expansive meaning, formerly.

The device you are talking about is a minelayer, which projects mines a short distance from a dispenser.

[AnalystInParadise]

7. I am recently retired from the Army

The M139 Volcano is called a mine thrower by the troops, it is also called a Mine Dispenser by the officers, or a Mine Dispersal Platform by the contractors. It is not incorrect terminology to call them mine throwers, the enlisted guys call it such. I don't understand why this is a point of contention, it is not incorrect to call this device a mine thrower, nor is it wrong to say it is a mine layer. But in my 1990 copy of Soviet Manual 100-2-3 Weapons and Equipment of the Soviet Union (I am a former Order of Battle Analyst) the U.S. Army calls the Soviet Platforms mine throwers.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/volcano.htm


Deleted a duplicate

[bemildred]

14. FWIW I remember the term being used too, in the 90s.

Though I always considered it an odd usage, one thinks of mines as being buried with little pins you can step on, like in the movies.

[AnalystInParadise]

8. In front of me

is my copy of 100-2-3 Soviet Weapons and Tactics, we still use these manuals to teach Order of Battle and Conventional War Tactics (my current job). Most of our potential conventional war opponents still use Soviet weapons and tactics. Anyway the most common Soviet Mine vehicle is the PMR-3 Mechanical Mine Throwing Trailer. The second most common is the GMZ mine laying vehicle mounted on an SA-4 chassis. Both terms are considered acceptable in the manuals that are used to teach American Intelligence Analysts.

[AnalystInParadise]

9. Although

What the Ukrainians would be doing with mine throwers in an offensive action is mystifying, it doesn't fit into doctrine at all concerning obstacle emplacement.

[The Magistrate]

15. As Mr. Igil Suggested, Sir

It looks like an odd translation from a word meaning mortar. If you put 'миномет' into a standard machine translation, you get 'mortar', which certainly makes sense in context. At the risk of setting you off again, early rocket launchers, such as the German nebelwerfer, were often referred to as mortars in the forties and fifties. So it could simply be a reference to carriage mounted rocket tubes. As you observe, taking it as a reference to mine-laying equipment has an odd ring.

[dipsydoodle]

12. As to a certain extent are rifles ? in this context

A source in the Russian Defense Ministry said, commenting on these photos, that they clearly illustrate that the force military grouping is being formed in the Slaviansk suburbs «in order to wipe out the city and its residents». According to his data, the grouping is comprised of more than 15,000 Ukrainian military servicemen and the home reserve, there are around 160 tanks, 230 infantry combat vehicles and armored personnel carriers, as well as no less than 150 rifles, mine throwers and RMs (multiple-launch rocket systems of Grad and Smerch types).

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140426/189389521/RIA-Novosti-Obtaines-Satellite-Photos-Showing-Ukrainian-Military-Buildup-Near-Slaviansk.html

I'd say something has been lost in translation.

[EX500rider]

3. I don't blame the Ukraine for this...if only a few squads showed up the pro-Russian agitators..

.....would fight back, show up with overwhelming force and they will fade away. (or get blown away I suppose)

Kinda of between a rock and a hard place they are, go soft and Russia will chip away the country from the inside, piece by piece, go hard and Russia will intervene to "rescue" the poor GRU infiltrators and their local allies.

[davidpdx]

10. So now the Russians are complaining that Ukraine is defending the eastern part of the country

That's just rich.

[tavernier]

11. ^^^^^ N/T

[pampango]

13. Let us hope that Ukrainian forces do not follow the example of Russians in Chechnya where

an ethnically distinct majority wanted independence from Moscow.

In late August and September 1999, Russia mounted a massive air campaign over Chechnya, with the stated aim of wiping out militants who invaded Dagestan the previous month. On 26 August 1999 Russia acknowledged bombing raids in Chechnya. The Russian air strikes were reported to have forced at least 100,000 Chechens to flee their homes to safety ...

The Chechen conflict entered a new phase on 1 October 1999, when Russia's new Prime Minister Vladimir Putin declared the authority of Chechen President Aslan Maskhadov and his parliament illegitimate.[citation needed] At this time, Putin announced that Russian troops would initiate a land invasion but progress only as far as the Terek River, which cuts the northern third of Chechnya off from the rest of the republic.

On 12 October 1999, the Russian forces crossed the Terek and began a two-pronged advance on the capital Grozny to the south. Hoping to avoid the significant casualties which plagued the first Chechen War, the Russians advanced slowly and in force, making extensive use of artillery and air power in an attempt to soften Chechen defences. Many thousands of civilians fled the Russian advance, leaving Chechnya for neighbouring Russian republics. Their numbers were later estimated to reach 200,000 to 350,000, out of the approximately 800,000 residents of the Chechen Republic.

The siege and fighting left the capital devastated like no other European city since World War II; in 2003 the United Nations called Grozny the most destroyed city on Earth.

The start of the war bolstered the domestic popularity of Vladimir Putin as the campaign was started one month after he had become Russian prime minister. The conflict greatly contributed to the deep changes in the Russian politics and society. The wars in Chechnya were a major factor in the growth of intolerance, xenophobia and racist violence in Russia, directed in a great part against the people from Caucasus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War#The_First_Chechen_War

[Tommy_Carcetti]

16. The audacity of the Ukrainians is glaring.

I mean having its own military? Within its own borders?

Heinous war mongers, they are!