Ukraine Violence Spreads: At Least One Killed in Odessa Riots
Source: NBC
Ukraine's tug-of-war between Russia and the West lurched to the central southern coastal city of Odessa on Friday, with around a thousand rival protesters involved in violent clashes in the city center.
A demonstration calling for the country's unity marched through the streets and was met by pro-Russian activists, Kiev-based UNIAN news agency and the Ukrainian online newspaper Ukrainskaya Pravda reported.
Riot police stepped in as the crowds threw flares and light bombs, and fired stones in slingshots. The English-language Kiev Post reported that one person had been killed in the clashes, showing a photograph of a body wrapped in the Ukrainian flag.
The Kiev Post said most of the pro-Russian group were fans of the local football team.
<snip>
Read more: http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/ukraine-violence-spreads-least-one-killed-odessa-riots-n95626
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Three people were killed and 15 wounded as rival rallies clashed in Ukraine's port-city of Odessa. A pro-unity demonstration, which included nationalists and football fans, ran into a rally preaching greater autonomy for the regions.
Gunfire was heard in Odessa's downtown as two rival rallies met, police having failed to draw them apart. Over 2,000 protesters pelted each other with Molotov cocktails and smoke grenades. Pavements were dismantled to get the stones for the fight, like it was done in Kiev during the Maidan protests.
<snip>
The “football fans” attacking anti-government activists in Odessa then set the local House of Trade Unions building on fire. The radicals stormed and torched the building after learning that some anti-Maidan activists had barricaded themselves inside it. Photos posted on Twitter showed people hanging out of windows and sitting on windowsills of several floors, possibly preparing to jump. Reports claim that those who jumped and survived were surrounded and beaten by football ultras and the Right Sector.
The riot police lines standing beside the building were apparently doing nothing to prevent the violence, the photos showed. Police officers reportedly said they cannot do anything because they were “unarmed.” The city’s authorities have gathered at city council for an emergency meeting aimed at stopping the disorder in Odessa, Mayor Vladimir Nemirovsky said in a statement on his Facebook account.
<snip>
Much more at the link
Purveyor
(29,876 posts)I for one insist on seeing the whole picture when available.
Bosonic
(3,746 posts)At least 3 pro-Ukraine shot dead
then in a revenge firebombing of pro-Russian HQ :
https://twitter.com/ReutersWorld/status/462304296562745344
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)the neo-cons running the State Department are going to get the bloodshed they were hoping for.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Nobody stands to gain more from instability in eastern Ukraine than Putin.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)after the Crimeans voted to join Russia that the rest of eastern Ukraine would want to follow their example, and that's exactly what's happening.
I don't think Putin is the one who orchestrated the coup in Kiev, nor do I think Putin ordered the Ukrainian military into the east of the country to attack the "terrorists" there. The US is calling the shots in Kiev and we have no business meddling in their affairs.
EmilyAnne
(2,769 posts)nyabingi
(1,145 posts)so he has no authority to order the Ukrainian military to do anything.
Think before you start spouting off...
EmilyAnne
(2,769 posts)And since Putin has no authority over the Ukrainian military, obviously the US is calling the shots.
Obviously, the US sent Ukrainian troops their own country?
Giving them cookies, right?
Brilliant.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Just like Russia had absolutely no role in escalating tensions in Crimea?
And that authorization for military force the Duma handed Putin, you really think he's not itching enough for an excuse that he wouldn't escalate the situation?
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)oligarchs and fascists via coup then none of this would be happening. Crimea would still be a part of Ukraine and everyone would've been happy.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)None of which justifies Putin's imperialist push into Ukraine.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)keep Ukraine firmly within its sphere of influence and they, just like the US does, pumped money and lended support to their favored politicians. If the pro-Russian Yanukovich had been voted out, thrown out due to corruption, or a pro-EU politician elected (which would've been difficult given that the eastern part of the country has a pro-Russian tilt), then Russia wouldn't have started piilng troops along the border.
The people in power would not be there if their political opponents weren't forced out. We, the American public, have become so used to seeing democratically-elected brought down in other countries so much that we've become numb to the fact that it is the exact opposite of what democracy is. If the public becomes dissatisfied with their elected government, they should follow whatever constitutional means they have of changing, have special elections or other such non-violent means. Violent overthrow of an elected government is not the way it should be done.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)I know it is hard to learn from only getting the RT side from Russia but the elected president fled and the since he could no longer carry out his duties the elected parliament replaced him. Including his own party members.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)When violent neo-Nazi thugs wielding shields, sticks, Molotov cocktails, and improvised body armor show up in the streets and begin attacking police and threatening the lives of politicians who are seen as pro-Russian, there was indeed a coup that took place. Yanukovich fled because his life was being threatened, and the people the US picked for Ukraine late last year are, surprise!, the ones in charge now.
He "could no longer carry out his duties" haha!
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Those nice boys in the east actually shoot people in the back and hold government officials and reporters hostage. Is the happening in Kiev?
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/pro-russia-militia-displays-captured-ukrainians-23487424
SLOVIANSK, Ukraine, April 23 (UPI) --
One of the bodies was of Ukrainian parliament member Volodymyr Rybak who disappeared a few days ago. This left acting Ukrainian President Oleksandr Turchynov with some harsh words for the pro-Russian activists in the region.
Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2014/04/23/Two-tortured-bodies-found-in-eastern-Ukraine-worsening-crisis/1641398284988/#ixzz30fBVnGO7
I am sure you will say the right sector did this, right
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)credible as RT would be for you.
It appears obvious though, from reporting of both western and non-western sources, that Right Sector and pro-Ukrainian right-wing hooligans were responsible for the deaths in Odessa (by throwing Molotovs into the building where anti-Kiev protesters were).
Yanukovich himself stated that he had to leave Kiev after threats on his life and the lives of his family - this was widely reported in varying news sources.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)blaming the West for that animal in Nigeria kidnapping those girls and here you are blaming the west for what is happening in Ukraine. It didn't take very long to figure you out.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)and make some silly comment about it will you?
The West is most certainly responsible for what's happening in Ukraine and western companies have played a negative role in Nigeria for a long time. I'm glad you figured me out so you'll know what to expect the next time.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)It would save a lot of time and effort if he simply slugged in 'U.S. BAD! Anyone else GOOD!' off a cut-and-paste....
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)It's such lazy thinking I'm surprised they aren't embarrassed by it. Whatever issues come up, just blame the US and the West and then nobody is responsible for anything.
P.S. No big deal but I'm a woman.
EmilyAnne
(2,769 posts)And of course they are puppets of the West because everyone knows that "neo-nazis" will happily take orders from Barack Obama.
Basically, no non Western person has any sort of free will.
They have no sense of history, culture or context that would compel them to take any sort of political action on their own.
Make sense now?
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)If some group or government across the world leans hard right, it's obviously secretly the workings of the West, as if people can't make their own shitty decisions.
The complete ignorance of why there just might be a hard nationalist backlash against Russia in Eastern Europe after centuries of Russification and imperialist dominance just makes it worse.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)help reinforce the new order in Kiev. I never said Right Sector controlled Ukraine, you did.
And do you think Obama or any other American politician cares who the pro-Westerners in Ukraine really are? Obama doesn't care that Svoboda is openly fascist or that Right Sector played a big role in the overthrow of a democratically-elected government.
This is why Obama in one instance can drone attack "al-Qa'ida" militants in Yemen and parts of Pakistan, yet support "al-Qa'ida" jihadists in Syria against the Assad government. Do you not see that this doesn't make sense??
What the hell is wrong with some of you people?
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)He will be invading any time now.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)across the border, with or without cassus belli, then he would've done so by now.
I hope he does so he can kick the crap out of those Right Sector goons.
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)This escalation is precisely what he needs. The problem is that eastern Ukraine is maybe 12% Russian, so it can go badly if he does so. Now ethnic Ukrainians have blood on their hands. They will feel threatened, and worry they will be targeted.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)disarm Right Sector as a part of the Geneva agreement the Russians reached with the US/EU axis, but that obviously didn't happen (and the pro-Russians of Ukraine didn't disarm either I'll add).
Sending hordes of violent anti-Russian goons to the east to beat sense into them wasn't a clear sign that Kiev wanted to address the grievances of the Ukrainians who didn't vote them into office.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)that disarmament doesn't cope with home made grenades and Molotov cocktails which is what were used today to fire the Trade Union building in Odessa.
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)I suspect those throwing Molotovs were not thinking straight, likely anger at their fallen comrades. But to be clear, the pro-Russians were the ones shooting.
To act as if guns aren't as bad as Molotovs is folly.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)I simply conveyed that such agreements cannot account for home made stuff.
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)The side with the guns, though, tends to be more threatening. Though if the Molotov firestorms continue, I suspect those with guns trying to take buildings will think twice.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)is pure cognitive dissonance.
Fascists are bad, so go fascist!
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)hanging Confederate flags in government buildings, or marching down the street with white power crosses and other symbols of the white supremacist movement. Russia fought a bloody war and lost 25 million people to defeat fascist Germans, so I doubt they have much appetite for a resurgence of it right next door...
Bosonic
(3,746 posts)
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Not that "but WWII!" argument again. That was 70 years ago. Russia has become a fascist state. If you don't see how that is, then you clearly don't understand fascism.
EmilyAnne
(2,769 posts)I really thought this was common knowledge at this point.
But beyond what is well documented, I lived there and saw it first hand.
Just ONE of countless experiences....the time that the head of the Saint Petersburg police blamed minorities for being attacked by skinheads. I heard it with my own ears and later read the text in the Saint Petersburg Times and clipped the article. He blamed them because he said that running from skinheads antagonized them, so they had no choice but to chase these people down and beat them beyond recognition or push them in front of a metro car.
Oh, and another....how the international student dorms had to be put on lockdown on Hitler's birthday. My friends told me of being barricaded inside while drunk, belligerent neo-nazis hang out outside. It was terrifying and there was no police intervention. As my good friend from Uzbekistan explained, "Why would we call Russian militsia? They'd let them in."
As far as Confederate flags in Russia, I saw many. One hanging in a bar called Money Honey, in fact. It didn't bother me too much because I understood that it doesn't mean too much in that part of the world. Just a vaguely edgy "American thing". Most Russians and Ukrainians don't know what it really means anymore than I understood the meanings of certain Victory Day symbols I saw all over Saint Petersburg.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)many here in the US, Russia, all over Europe and even in South Africa.
I never said there weren't neo-Nazis in Russia, but that the US and EU are supporting their rise to power in Kiev.
Don't get excited and confuse yourself.
EmilyAnne
(2,769 posts)You were wrong.
I responded.
I know that's hard.
If you want to be flippant about me being "excited" and "confused," go ahead, but it only highlights that fact that you have absolutely no connection to the things you are attempting to discuss.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)but for some reason you think I did.
Go back and read what I said again. You indeed became excited and confused a jumped right to the conclusion that I must've meant there are no neo-Nazis in Russia, but I didn't say that.
Like I said, you got a little ahead of yourself.
pampango
(24,692 posts)In a letter sent to the governments of Poland, Romania and Hungary, Vladimir Zhirinovsky also suggested those countries hold referendums on incorporating the regions into their territory.
Zhirinovsky, whose nationalist Liberal Democratic party largely backs President Vladimir Putin in the Russian parliament, sent the letter as Russia annexed the Crimea region of southern Ukraine last week.
He is deputy speaker at the Duma and his party holds a minority in the parliament. But his ideas and language resonate with a large part of the Russian population and the Kremlin's increasingly pro-nationalist rhetoric.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/24/ukraine-crisis-partition-letter-idUSL5N0ML1LO20140324
Liberal Democratic Party of Russia
Despite the party's name, it is frequently described as "neither liberal nor democratic." While the party describes itself as centrist and reformist, it is usually regarded as far-right and is identified with Russian ultranationalism, fiscally left national-populism and authoritarian conservatism. Its ideology is based primarily on Zhirinovsky's ideas of "imperial reconquest".
Platform
The Liberal Democratic Party of Russia aims for "a revival of Russia as a great power." It has opposed both communism and the "wild" capitalism that resulted from Russia's reforms. It favours a mixed economy with private ownership but with a strong management role reserved for the state. In foreign policy, the party places a strong emphasis on "civilizations." It has supported the restoration of Russia with its "natural borders" (which the party believes include Belarus, Ukraine and other former Soviet republics).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Democratic_Party_of_Russia
http://euobserver.com/eu-elections/123887
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)but for different reasons. It's the same reason rightists in the US oppose the idea of a federal government having jurisdiction over them (e.g., the whole Bundy incident), the right-wing militias who fear the idea of the UN and "World Government", and other such crazies. The European rightists have never supported the idea of a European Union and one single currency, but champion the idea of their respective countries remaining independent of the EU. Putin opposes the EU more for economic reasons and the fact that the EU (with the US) is actively seeking to incorporate countries within Russia's traditional sphere of influence.
While Putin and European rightists may both oppose the EU, it is Svoboda of Ukraine that has actual ties with the rightist parties of Europe (in France and Italy for example). Nationalism is a tie that binds Putin and other rightists in Europe, but it's a stretch to say they are ideologically identical and have the same goals.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,307 posts)eg:
Marine Le Pen, leader of France's far-right National Front, blamed the European Union for declaring a new Cold War on Russia that would hurt all concerned, Russian media reported on Saturday as she paid an official visit to Moscow.
Europe-Russia relations are at their lowest ebb in decades after President Vladimir Putin's annexation of Crimea prompted the EU to impose sanctions on dozens of prominent Russian officials and lawmakers.
However Le Pen, along with other Eurosceptic leaders of the far left and nationalist right, believe the original fault lies with Brussels for offering closer ties with Ukraine, a move Russia opposes.
"I am surprised a Cold War on Russia has been declared in the European Union," French National Front leader Le Pen said at a meeting with Sergei Naryshkin, speaker of the Russian parliament's lower house.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/12/us-ukraine-crisis-le-pen-russia-idUSBREA3B09I20140412
or
http://euobserver.com/news/123453
or
A congress held by Italy’s Northern League in December last year, for example, was attended by Austrian, Flemish, Dutch and Swedish far-right leaders as well as Vikto Zubarev, an MP for United Russia, Putin’s party.
Hungary’s Jobbik and Greece’s Golden Dawn are both invited to the Russian National Forum organised by a group with close ties to Putin to be held later this year.
Admiration for Putin also extends to Europe’s softer right-wing. Nigel Farage, leader of the eurosceptic UK Independence Party, has openly backed Putin as a skillful "operator".
http://euobserver.com/eu-elections/123887
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)website a little, and they obviously have a vested interest in defending the EU against their adversaries (the European far-right movements and Russia). It is all a part of the western push to divert attention away from their foreign policy blunder in Ukraine and push the blame onto Putin - the west needs a singular evil guy to focus the public's attention on and to make the idea of military conflict seem necessary.
Again, as I've said before, I'm not overly interested in Putin the man, his political party, his country's internal politics and their negotiations with parties in other countries, but I am interested in western aggression and provocation in foreign countries and the drive to constantly expand NATO into. Western aggressors are working 24/7 to convince people like you that Putin is the problem and it seems to be working on a great many people.
And while westerners are so busy trying to tie Putin to the baddies of Europe, little press is given to the fact that US officials (Biden, McCain, etc.) were meeting openly with Svoboda (one of the very far-right parties you're talking about) before the coup offering all kinds of support for them and their agenda.
Are you ready to condemn the Obama administrations overtures to Ukraine's Svoboda? Is American support for the far-right, neo-Nazi element in Ukraine something minor, yet far-right support for Putin somehow more sinister and worthy of condemnation?
muriel_volestrangler
(101,307 posts)Putin is a nasty piece of work, responsible for thousands of deaths in Chechnya, an oligarchical system in Russia of extreme inequality, the encouragement of anti-LGBT policies that end in violence, and many other far right actions.
Svoboda is not in charge of Ukraine. Putin is in charge of Russia. That you're not interested in Putin may be the problem - you're blind to what a piece of shit he is. The 'aggressor' is not NATO, or the west in general, it's Putin and Russia.
I'm all for anyone interested in exposing the truth about the European far-right movements and Russia. I'm amazed that anyone on DU would find that a problem.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)People on the left, particularly people on its further fringes, have long been in the habit of brandishing 'fascist' and 'nazi' as all-purpose one-size-fits-all terms of abuse for the enemy of the moment, so that for many who are prone to employ them, the terms have lost all meaning, and simply mean 'someone or something I don't like'. They have no idea what the actual characteristics of a fascist government or movement are, and no sense whatever of actual historical circumstances in which fascism and nazism arose and prospered, and what developments flowed from their flowering. This feeds into a second common element of 'lefter than thou' usage of the terms 'fascist' and 'nazi'. This is a tendency to present any degree of rightist presence which can be found in something opposed as both 'proof' that 'nazi fascists' are involved, and further, that the whole thing is dominated by, directed by, and acting to establish, 'nazis' and 'fascists', without the slightest degree of examination being devoted to finding out and understanding what is actually going on. That this will on occasion, as it has now, lead people to chant 'I oppose nazi fascists' while they align themselves with the leading fascist state and ruler in the world at present, and in support of the most blatant imperialist action to be found in the world today, while it can rouse both laughter and some degree of disgust, really ought not to be any surprise....
"It's a feature, not a bug."
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)plain and simple, and there's no shame in saying you do.
Do you also believe that the US is the light of freedom and democracy in this world, that our actions as they pertain to our global neighbors always have beneficent intentions and are well-meaning, that the US itself is a true democracy (and not itself an "oligarchical system"
, that the US has been a world leader in defending the rights of people of color, the LGBT community and other marginalized groups?
If the US is against someone, they are obviously bad right?
muriel_volestrangler
(101,307 posts)and which gained it as new territory as a result. You don't seem to understand the meaning of the phrase 'imperial aggression'.
I know that some people are convinced that anything that happens that they consider bad (such as the overthrow of Yanukovych) must have been done by Americans, since they think no-one is capable of such an act without rally being controlled by Americans, but the world really isn't like that. Non-Americans are capable of independent action, and it's rather insulting to imply they wer just stooges of Americans.
The US has a far better record in the past 45 years than the USSR/Russia on race, LGBT rights and marginalised groups in general. The US is a more equal country than Russia. Both are capitalist, and I can see why people want to resist the USA on those grounds, but Russia is not the country to whose arms you should rush in that case.
This year’s Global Wealth Report by Swiss bank Crédit Suisse records that 22 years after the collapse of the Soviet Union, the gulf between the broad mass of the population and the super-rich in Russia is greater than in any other major country in the world. Thirty-five percent of the country’s total wealth is in the hands of 0.00008 percent of the population, or 110 out of a total population of 143 million.
The study states: “Russia has the highest level of wealth inequality in the world, apart from small Caribbean nations with resident billionaires. Worldwide, there is one billionaire for every USD 170 billion in household wealth; Russia has one for every USD 11 billion. Worldwide, billionaires collectively account for 1%–2% of total household wealth; in Russia today 110 billionaires own 35% of all wealth.”
At the same time, 94 percent of the adult population own less than $10,000. The richest one percent of the population, or about 1.43 million people, control 71 percent of all wealth.
Even at the top of the wealth pyramid, Russian wealth is distributed very unequally. According to Crédit Suisse, 5.6 percent of the population possesses between $10,000 and $100,000, 0.6 percent between $100,000 and $1 million, and 0.1 percent more than $1 million. The bank estimates that the number of millionaires will increase from the current total of 84,000 to 133,000 in five years.
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/10/19/russ-o19.html
Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #75)
Name removed Message auto-removed
muriel_volestrangler
(101,307 posts)is still imperialism. After the Russian troops took over, they banned Ukrainian TV, broadcast fearmongering "Nazis are coming to get you!" crap (which you seem to have fallen for as well, despite having access to non-Russian media), and then had a referendum to confirm the presence of the Russians troops as 'good'. If Russia had stuck to the agreement (a) to keep its troops off the streets (b) to respect Ukrainian borders, they could have had a genuine referendum in Crimea, and the chancers trying to take over eastern Ukraine wouldn't be kindapping and killing people in the hope that Russia will march in to tak control. But they didn't, so the blame should fall on Russia.
Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #77)
Name removed Message auto-removed
muriel_volestrangler
(101,307 posts)on DU. Both are lies. Neither would come from a Democrat.
International observers? You remember this sub-thread was about the European far right supporting Putin? They were the observers that his troops allowed in:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-l-phillips/crimeas-technically-flawe_b_4992908.html
The illegitimate "referendum" in the Autonomous Republic of Crimea was held in this Ukrainian region at the gunpoint of Russian occupation forces on 16 March. Supported by the pariah states such as North Korea and Assad's Syria, yet strongly defied by the EU, USA, Canada and other states, the Crimean "referendum" was, however, hailed as "fair" and "legitimate" by a number of European "election monitors" who have been hired by dubious European structures and who have clear links to the extreme right, far left, and pro-Russian organisations/companies.
The main organisation which invited the "observers" to monitor the Crimean "referendum" is the Eurasian Observatory For Democracy & Elections (EODE). It is headed by Luc Michel (1958) and Jean-Pierre Vandersmissen (???). Both are followers of the major Belgian collaborationist and neo-Nazi Jean-François Thiriart and members of the extreme right Parti Communautaire National-Européen (PCN-NCP).
Johannes Hübner (1956), member of the radical right-wing populist Freedom Party of Austria (FPÖ).
Ewald Johann Stadler (1961), former member of the FPÖ, current member of the radical right-wing populist Alliance for the Future of Austria (BZÖ).
Frank Creyelman (1961), former member of the extreme right Vlaams Blok, current member of the extreme right Vlaams Belang.
Luc Michel (1958), former member of the neo-Nazi Fédération d'action nationale et européenne (FANE), current member of the extreme right Parti Communautaire National-Européen (PCN-NCP).
Pavel Chernev (1969), member of the extreme right Ataka party.
Erkki Johan Bäckman (1971), neo-Stalinist who does not recognise Estonia and Latvia as states. Banned from teaching at the University of Helsinki for distorting the history of the Baltic states.
Aymeric Chauprade (1969), member of the radical right-wing populist National Front, adviser on international issues.
http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/news/featured-news/european-right-wing-extremists-and-other-pro-russian-activists-observed-the-crimean-referendum
olddad56
(5,732 posts)nyabingi
(1,145 posts)
Cha
(297,154 posts)nyabingi
(1,145 posts)but you have yet, at least in your responses to me, presenting anything resembling "knowledge".
Dropping a few four-letter words don't quite qualify little kid.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)Embarrassed with support for fascists, Mccainites, neocons, and the worst of the extreme right wing.
Hyperbole, foul language and insults are the order of the day.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)nyabingi
(1,145 posts)in which the CIA has targeted "militants", then medics and others who come to survey the bombed era, then target the funerals afterwards.
Obama is as bloodthirsty a president as there has ever been, and you trying to ignore it because you still have "hope" and long for "change" is what's disgusting. Get your head out of the sand - the people being killed in drone strikes would agree with me.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)and a load of horseshit too. You have some proof that Obama targets funerals, other than Taliban press releases?
Obama won, get over it.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)when you're cheering on a potential Russian invasion of Ukraine, to be carried out by the man who killed more Chechens in Grozny alone than the entire drone program ever has.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=794651
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)intend to punish the east of their country by sending in the military, so perhaps you'd rather see the military there kill a bunch of people? You're obviously cheering on this prospect since I'm cheering on a Russian invasion. The difference between you and me is that I'll admit to preferring Russian intervention in Ukraine because someone in this world has to make a stand against rampant US meddling a nation-shaping exercises.
We don't know the exact number of innocents killed by Obama's drone program because our Congress decided it was information we didn't need access to. Therefore, the only option we're left with is seeking information elsewhere on what true Obama believers would say are conspiracy websites (i.e., any website that doesn't say wonderful things about the US all the time).
Cha
(297,154 posts)Purveyor
(29,876 posts)Howard Amos in Odessa
theguardian.com, Friday 2 May 2014 15.44 EDT
More than 38 people were reported to have been killed in violent and chaotic clashes in the southern Ukrainian city of Odessa on Friday as pro-Ukrainian activists stormed a building defended by protesters opposed to the current government in Kiev and in favour of closer ties with Russia.
Odessa's large Soviet-era trade union building was set alight as pro-Ukrainian activists mounted an assault as dusk fell. Police said at least 38 people choked to death on smoke or were killed when jumping out of windows after the trade union building was set on fire.
Bodies lay in pools of blood outside the main entrance as explosions from improvised grenades and Molotov cocktails filled the air. Black smoke from the building and a burning pro-Russian protest camp wreathed the nearby square.
Pro-Russian fighters mounted a last-ditch defence of the burning building, tossing masonry and Molotov cocktails from the roof on to the crowd below.
more...
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-odessa-building-fire
muriel_volestrangler
(101,307 posts)There's going to be tit-for-tat killings, probably escalating. And if that's the case, Russia will send troops in.
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)Putin needed to cause an ethnic divide where one didn't exist. People can only take armed groups taking over towns for so long.
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)
Igel
(35,300 posts)Latest reports I've read say 43 dead. Some of them were pro-Ukrainian protesters shot on the street; there are plenty of copies of the picture of the guy on the roof shooting. There are other pictures of pro-Russians with handguns on the street.
That leaves fewer than 40 dead that could be pro-Russian.
Of those fewer than 40 dead, 20 were "foreigners" on the pro-Russian side--15 were Russian citizens and 5 were from TransDniestria. They died in the trade union building fire. That's hardly a random or representative sample, but is far more than enough to say that the confrontation was organized as a result of outside influence and manipulation.
First group hurt:
Pro-Ukrainian folk + soccer fans
Next group consisted over just half non-Ukrainian citizens, leaving a bit fewer than half Ukrainian pro-Russian supporters.
Note to self: When visiting another country, stay out of organizing large-scale violent protests.
It's worth noting that the pro-Russian group originated at the "antiMaidan" camp set up at the trade union building. (For all the ranting about how only the EuroMaidan is still in existence, the antiMaidans in various cities are also still set up. The "Ukrainian" unity + soccer thugs raided the antiMaidan in Odessa and burned their tents after the street shootings and prior to the trade union fire.)
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Russia may gobble up the east.
Or it may force a weak federalist state with an autonomous east.
Or there could be a Donetsk Republic kind of state.
And there's Odessa.
Memorize the current map of Ukraine. It ain't gonna look like that for long.
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)They never had popular support. All Putin could wish for is taking towns and preventing a vote, as it stands now ethnic Ukrainians are not letting that happen. This "success" will only embolden them, as they now know they can simply burn out the fascists relatively easily with no repercussions. Russia will be invading soon.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,307 posts)(if they occupy the whole coast, they link up with Transdniestria, which declared independence from Moldaova and has Russian troops in already), many Ukrainians will flee to Ukrainian-controlled territory, and there'll be a sufficient Russian majority in those areas.
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)We are talking 88% here. People are getting tired of the insecurity caused by the pro-Russia fascists.
At least Maidan was confined to one square and a street.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,307 posts)Luhansk: 39.0% Russian
Odessa: 20.7% Russian
Kharkiv: 25.6% Russian
For the whole of Ukraine: 77.8% Ukrainian, 17.3% Russian (you can go to other provinces from that page)
The figures for native language of Russian are higher still: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language_in_Ukraine#2001_Census
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)That's is where my number came from, on phone or I would show the math.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,307 posts)But removing Crimea from the countrywide figures wouldn't make that much difference:
2001 country totals: Ukrainian 37,541,700, Russian 8,334,100, total 48,457,100
2001 Crimea: Ukrainian 492,200, Russian 1,180,400, total 2,024,000
2001 Sevastapol Ukrainian 84,400, Russian 270,000, total 377,200
rest of Ukraine: total 46,055,900, Ukrainian 36,965,100 (80.3%) Russian 6,883,700 (14.9%)
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)I must've messed the math up somewhere.
King_Rat
(26 posts)Perhaps they do not want nazi thugs roaming the streets and IMF austerity like the Greeks?
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)And Victoria Nuland should be fired.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)More than 30 people were killed in violent and chaotic clashes in the southern Ukrainian city of Odessa on Friday as pro-Ukraine activists stormed a building defended by protesters opposed to the current government in Kiev and in favour of closer ties with Russia.
Odessa's large Soviet-era trade union building was set alight as the pro-Ukraine activists mounted an assault as dusk fell. Police said at least 31 people choked to death on smoke or were killed when jumping out of windows after the trade union building was set on fire.
Bodies lay in pools of blood outside the main entrance as explosions from improvised grenades and molotov cocktails filled the air. Black smoke from the building and a burning pro-Russia protest camp wreathed the nearby square.
Pro-Russia fighters mounted a last-ditch defence of the burning building, throwing masonry and petrol bombs from the roof on to the crowd below.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-odessa-building-fire
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Massive Russian invasion all but inevitable, if the stories are true.
Iterate
(3,020 posts)"The hazardous material was brought into Ukrainian territory from the self-proclaimed Transnistrian Republic in a car with foreign license plates, and was stored in a home-made container."
She said that ten people had been detained by the SBU in the course of this operation, one of whom, according to initial reports, is a Russian citizen.
...
http://pressimus.com/Interpreter_Mag/press/2604
True or not, it's worth watching. KyivPost is repeating the claim and reporting that seven of those who died in Odessa were from Transnistria.