Police say pro-Russians accidentally set fatal Odessa fire with Molotov cocktails

[OilemFirchen]

Source: Kyiv Post

Police: Separatists set Odessa trade union building on fire with Molotov cocktails

5:55 p.m. – Preliminary findings from an Interior Ministry investigation suggest that pro-Russian separatists in Odesa accidentally set the trade union building on fire with Molotov cocktails.

According to an Interior Ministry statement, separatists on April 2 broke into the trade union building and barricaded themselves inside. They then from the roof started throwing Molotov cocktails and shooting with firearms at “peaceful citizens.”

Some of the incendiary devices hit the building causing a fire that eventually killed more than 40 people, said the Interior Ministry statement. – Mark Rachkevych

Read more: http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/sbu-russia-behind-kidnapping-of-osce-military-observers-updates-videos-346066.html

---

Is Kyiv Post reliable? Who knows. But it's clearly as useful as RT, which has become the go-to source for some, and it's been cited in LBN as recently as this morning.

This blurb flies in the face of Russian and even Western stories on the matter, so for those who need to see the "whole picture" (notably the RT crowd, per their claims) here's evidence that everything you think you know is wrong.

[iamthebandfanman]

1. lmao

how do you 'accidently' set fire with something designed to set fire?
what exactly were they for if not to set fire to things?

[Comrade Grumpy]

2. That's hilarious. Videos show the pro-Ukraine mob tossing Molotovs into the building.

I watched them on the BBC yesterday.

[OilemFirchen]

5. They also show the "defense forces" lobbing Molotov cocktails in return. (n/t)

[newthinking]

25. oh yes, THIS VIDEO clearly shows that it wasn't the pro-Ukraine group

oh wait....

What a crock. So they are not going to prosecute these people What exactly does that say. And how will that help the situation?

[Comrade Grumpy]

31. There has been some, ahem, obfuscation going on. n/t

[OilemFirchen]

33. That video "clearly shows" nothing of the sort.

We see unidentified individuals throwing Molotov cocktails at the building. It's not disputed that both sides were using petrol bombs.

Only your vaunted RT is claiming that the "radicals" started the deadly fire - a declaration unsupported by any facts whatsoever. Most media observe, correctly, that the police have not said how the fire started. Kyiv Post is reporting, accurately and factually, that the Interior Minister believes it was started by the Russian counter-protestors.

This thread is for you, bud. You've proclaimed that you seek out all sides of a story. Welp, here's "another" side.

You're welcome.

[newthinking]

36. That video came from the bbc

And I don't generally use RT as a reliable source.

Good attempt but you know people are not stupid here They can watch both this video and the one that leads up to it Everything is well documented.

The other video I am talking about came from an Odessa news site that also covered a Tymonshnko address, so they seem pretty comfortable not covering things from a single angle.

ok "bud"?

And I did say that it looks like it the initial skirmish may have been started from the anti-maidan side, which is not the "RT" viewpoint.

Believe what you want.

[OilemFirchen]

42. The video's provenance is not the issue.

It's your insinuation that the pro-Ukrainian protestors started the deadly fire. Did the BBC state that?

In fact, you started another thread making that proclamation, rather than a simple implication. Was that sourced to the BBC?

BTW, when you state that you "don't generally use RT as a reliable source", keep in mind that "people are not stupid here".

[Comrade Grumpy]

49. The video shows the pro-Ukraine protestors advancing on the pro-Russian camp.

They burn it down.

The pro-Russians huddle at the entrance to the building, then retreat inside.

The pro-Ukraine crowd then throws firebombs into the building.

Then a bunch of people die.

It's kind of sickening to see people try to turn black into white. Face it, the pro-Ukraine mob cornered those people, then set the building on fire and killed a bunch of presumably pro-Russian people. They probably didn't mean to do that, but that's what happened. I wonder what those pretty pro-Ukraine teenage girls photographed filling Molotov cocktails yesterday think now.

[newthinking]

50. Here is another video showing thugs throwing firebombs and shooting

So as the fire burned they could not leave the building as they would risk getting beaten or shot.

Most of it is about half way through.

Warning, it's shaky.

I have a link to pictures of dead, mostly older men and women. But I can't link to it here as they are too graphic.

Again, the police had already arrested the people involved in the earlier clash on the anti-maidan (proRussia) side, these were other people that were at the camp and retreated when right sector came after them. You can see they are all carrying weapon. There was intent there to kill

[OilemFirchen]

3. Erh... what?

Many accidental fires are set by "something designed to set fire". Like, ya know, a lit match...

Then there's this:

"Some of the incendiary devices hit the building causing a fire that eventually killed more than 40 people, said the Interior Ministry statement."

If you look reaaaaaally hard, you can find that statement in the post to which you responded.

[iamthebandfanman]

6. I think my point was..

if they didn't plan on setting fire to things..
why did they have them?
comparing them to matches is kinda silly, I think ...
I can think of plenty of non violent asinine ways to use a match.. but I can only think of one thing a Molotov cocktail is for.. and its not to light a cigarette or a bonfire...

[OilemFirchen]

7. Okay.

[newthinking]

27. This is a flat out lie and it on tape. It's foolhardy and incredibly incendiary if they continue

this tact.

If they continue to blame the fire on the people who were killed that will likely be what throws this entire thing into all out civil war.

I am not sure if that is not what they want. I mean their Head of Department of Defense and Attorney General are neo nazis.

[karynnj]

11. Not to mention most kitchen fires, many fires where camp fires are not correctly extinguished,

candles .......


Here, you have things designed to start major fires - an accident with any could start a major fire.

[OilemFirchen]

14. That poster...

has obviously never seen a Road Runner cartoon.

[Igel]

4. Simple.

People from the march that was attacked counterattacked.

They burned the tents that formed the anti-Maidan on the Kulikovo Pole. The large open square that the Union building faces. The site of one of those protests that, apparently, Russia was calling on the Kiev government to liquidate but which it failed to do. (That's facetious. These exist in several cities, but Russia never has those in mind for liquidation.)

The antiMaidan "activists"--the ones that went to confront the soccer hooligans and the "Ukrainian Unity" folk--had retreated there.

So much, so clear.

It's unclear that many of the former marchers were clustered at the front of the building.

From the top of the building they threw Molotov coctails. This was reported well before there were any reports of deaths. As the fire was still spreading, this was already suggested by reporters and eyewitnesses on the ground (these wouldn't necessarily have been strong pro-Russian supporters, naturally). The front of the building has a roof. The Russians had put up a barricade (which becomes, in RT speak, "Right Sector forces blocked the pro-Russian activists in the building&quot .

You throw Molotov cocktails from the roof at the nasty people burning your empty tents, you might hit the roof and the crap you used to barricade the doors. You simply drop them and wind can cause them to veer a bit from their course. Then you hit the building. You hit next to windows.

Gasoline splashes. It spreads. You intend to kill more marchers, you accidentally set your own building on fire.

Did this happen? Hard to know without watching a lot of the video that was shot.

Did the people from the march that proceeded to burn the pro-Russian attackers throw Molotov cocktails into the building? Perhaps. Again, hard to know without looking at a lot of the video.

Which is why the police "suggest" that it "may have" happened. RT knows know such nuance. It was an intentional slaughter by specifically Right Sector forces against women and children. I wonder if they bothered to find the incubators and toss the babies out of them, as well?

[Iterate]

8. Here's one of the early print narratives

Ukraine crisis: death by fire in Odessa as country suffers bloodiest day since the revolution
By Roland Oliphant in Odessa 6:36PM BST 03 May 2014

The pro-Maidan football fans and self-defence units quickly destroyed the camp, setting fire to the tents. The pro-Russians tried to make a last stand on the steps of the House of Trade Unions, throwing up barricades around the great stone pillars in front of the doors. Finally, they were forced to retreat inside.
...

Witnesses sympathetic to the pro-Maidan movement point out that video footage appears to show the fire beginning on the third floor, behind an intact window - and out of reach of the petrol bombs thrown by the crowd outside. Maybe, they say, a pro-Russian dropped a petrol bomb by accident.

This is a possible explanation. But there is also no doubt that petrol bombs were being hurled in both directions. Only a full investigation might discover where exactly the fire started. Even then, it will probably never be clear whether the carnage was pre-meditated or accidental.

Once the blaze took hold, Alexandra said that the pro-Maidan crowd tried to rescue the pro-Russians inside. “Some of the self-defence got hold of some scaffolding and used it to get access to the second floor window, where they got people out from,” she said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10806656/Ukraine-crisis-death-by-fire-in-Odessa-as-country-suffers-bloodiest-day-since-the-revolution.html

That's one way it could have been accidental. I'm sure every paper will run a narrative in the next few days.

[karynnj]

16. I wonder why more was not made of the comment that the Pro Maidan group tried to rescue

some from the building.

[joshcryer]

23. Pics of pro-Maidan trying to help:

Yellow + Blue = pro-Maidan.

[Duckhunter935]

29. that can not be true

RT did not report that

[newthinking]

37. I think people here are capable of understanding that in situations

and tensions like this there will be various ranges of temperaments within groups. I don't doubt there are people in Maidan who don't want to put violence on others, just as there are right sector minded people in the group as well who would like to visit lots of violence on those who disagree with them.

If you buy the narrative that all the country is in agreement and only Putin is stirring things up, and there are only "kinder Gentler" Neo-Nazi's in Maidan, then indeed it will be impossible to understand how this can all escalate into much more shaded hues.

[joshcryer]

38. I believe Putin's annexetion of Crimea definitely stirred things.

You did not hear about these conflicts in the East before Putin did that. Now you have western Ukrainians afraid that their industry will be taken away and that their country will go to shit.

No one who is pro-Maidan but anti-Putin is pro-Right Sector. We consider them an insignificant threat.

[NuclearDem]

9. Molotovs are designed to set fire to things...

...but the "oops" comes from the users setting fire to their own building.

[elleng]

28. Exactly!

OOPS???!!!

[Duckhunter935]

10. they were both throwing them

it was probably mutually set ignition. It was both sides fault. RT will blame it wholly on the right sector and Kiev will blame the pro-Russian side.

Color me surprised

[karynnj]

12. Here, it is likely not the just reliability of the paper that should be looked at

The report is that the Interior Ministry is saying that this. I assume that is an accurate statement of what the Interior Ministry said. What will have to be seen is what proof led them to that conclusion. In addition, the question will be who are the people in the interior ministry, were they the local people from Odessa, and were they at the scene.

From other comments both groups were throwing the Molotov cocktails. Either group could have caused this if both were throwing them at the building -- in fact, it might have started as several fires!

Here is what Haaretz, a left leaning Israeli paper reported before that report. Their account of how it started, indicated that the Pro Russian people attacked a march in favor of Kiev with among other things - petro bombs (I assume Molotov Cocktails). http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.588724

[cosmicone]

22. the puppet interior ministry appointed by Nuland? n/t

[Duckhunter935]

32. any proof?

[Turbineguy]

13. Bring them to the US

the guys at the Bundy ranch need all the help they can get.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

15. There was probably a mutual exchange of Molotovs. It was a mob scene from both sides.

We could play Billy Joel until the cows come home, but what happened in Odessa was messy from both sides.



I didn't see the events at the Trade Union building, but I did watch the street riots live yesterday. And you had Molotovs being lobbed into the Ukrainian side, and you had some Ukrainians throwing rocks and Molotovs at the Russians. And then you had the guys on the rooftops with guns--and those were the Russians.

It was just a horrible situation that escalated very badly. No one should have died. But you can bet Russia will capitalize on this as much as they can.

Kyiv Post is fairly reliable. Unlike RT, it's independent and not state owned, so you don't get the sense it's a totally propaganda outlet. Christopher Miller (Kyiv Post reporter)'s Twitter feed has been very informative.

[OilemFirchen]

18. I posited the veracity of Kyiv Post to embarass the Pootiebots.

Here's RT's take on the conflagration:

Odessa slaughter: How vicious mob burnt anti-govt activists alive

Dozens of people died in flames in Odessa, when radicals set ablaze the local House of Trade Unions with anti-government protesters blocked inside. The city is now in mourning for those who died, suffocated in smoke or had to jump out of windows.

"Radicals", of course, being members of the Unity rally. No equivocation on the part of RT, it was those dastardly Nazis, period.

[Jesus Malverde]

20. These are the people you have been lionizing

[joshcryer]

24. This is what happens when insecurity fosters.

And Russia has been fostering that insecurity from the get-go.

[newthinking]

40. I agree with your first point - Second point you completely lose perspective

There have been a number of places where interests are overpowering the welfare of people and it is not just Russia. The overthrow and the makeup of the government have far more to do with it.

The Ukrainian people are not as uninformed as many like to make them out to be. If Right sector and Svoboda thugs were not integrated in the government the situation would still be turbulent, but nothing like it is now

[joshcryer]

41. If I thought I'd get a bigger pension...

...guaranteed health care, stuff like that, I think I would be willing to take over government buildings. Especially if the police were letting me and even some of them were on my side.

Russia's annexation of Crimea was almost certainly the reason the east decided to get cocky. The same Cossaks from Crimea are in the east now. At this point it is unclear if they are just being guided by Moscow or helped directly. I am choosing to believe that at most they get intel and some moral support, sort of like the State Department with Maidan. But they're armed to the teeth, having taken arms from police stations they took over and trashed.

Three fascists in the transitional government, who btw will be marginalized in due course, does not a fascist government make.

[newthinking]

45. It's not just a few fascists, though it is good to see that folks are becoming aware of it

It is basically civil war at this point. By the time a conflict gets to where this one is there isn't going to be much "koombyya". And it will continue to get murkier after what happened yesterday. At this point indeed most any extremist on either side can cause great havoc.

All the more reason we should be toning down the rhetoric and doing everything we can to calm the situation.

[joshcryer]

48. I don't think there's anything we can do.

Those who lose friends or compatriots are only emboldened. Look at Venezuela. The protests / rioting are still going on. What happens when one group arms themselves and starts shooting? It'll get dark quick.

[newthinking]

39. Please Don't "opine" TC on it then!

The videos have been all over the site. There really is no excuse not to view them before making statements and claims where 30 people were incinerated?

It is all easy enough to view.

With Svoboda enforcing "freedom of Speech" like this below I don't think anyone can take for granted that the Post will always report without bias.

I would have said that about them before (I have read them over the years), but certainly not in this environment.

These two MPs are still in their positions as well as at the head of Defense and Security and other executive positions. There are still Right Sector faithful in the administration.

[freshwest]

17. Those who tossed the petrol bombs and rocks, shot and beat each other are to blame. No one else.

[Red Mountain]

19. Tend to agree

It may get worse. That only the active participants are killing each other is something to be thankful for.

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail.

[freshwest]

21. What influences them, doesn't force them to kill. I don't accept mindlessness as an excuse.

I'm hoping for cooler heads to prevail, too. Thanks.

[newthinking]

46. At this point there will be bad actions on both sides - It's in very serious territory

We really need to tone down the rhetoric and find ways to calm the situation. But all it seems like we are doing is add to it????

What good does it do to win a few propaganda points if it leads to an all out war?

[freshwest]

52. There are no points to be scored. Ukraine and Russia were married for centuries. It's NYOB.

And no amount of internet buffoonery like this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024820686#post116

...Will stop what's going on there on the ground. They will work it out themselves.

It's NOYB because they are not in NATO. We're legally bound to NATO by treaty. Every action that Obama has done was either NATO or UN approved, and he's said repeatedly we are NOT going to play police for them.

The West didn't squawk all the other times the Russians moved the borders before. and we won't go kill them for anyone. Ukraine had been a nuclear player at one time. it's not some tiny island, they're not helpless.

EOM.

[Purveyor]

26. "and it's been cited in LBN as recently as this morning." It may have been

'cited' within a thread but I can't find a OP in LBN with RT as the source.

I checked the LBN hosts forum and find no signs of an alert or lock of RT today.

To my dismay, RT is promptly locked in LBN by fellow hosts with a different view on 'the news' than I.

By right, Kyiv Post should also be locked if their logic is followed but I'm against locking either of them.

[OilemFirchen]

30. No RT posts in LBN?

Poor baby.

Now, parse this paragraph along with me:

Is Kyiv Post reliable? Who knows. But it's (Kyiv Post) clearly as useful as RT, which has become the go-to source for some, and it's (Kyiv Post) been cited in LBN as recently as this morning.

What "logic" would dictate Kyiv Post be "locked"? I haven't noted any suggestion that Kyiv Post is propaganda. I haven't seen any calls for its exclusion. That (along with consideration by the admins) is what led to RT's dismissal as inappropriate for LBN.

Wanna see Kyiv Post join RT? Take it up with Skinner. Start a campaign.

Good luck!

[Purveyor]

34. What part of this statement do you have difficulty comprehending?

"By right, Kyiv Post should also be locked if their logic is followed but I'm against locking either of them.

[OilemFirchen]

35. None of it.

Which part of it doesn't matter what the fuck you prefer, the decision has been made per the dictates of this website do you not understand?

[Purveyor]

43. Well I see there is no point in continuing this but it is nice to see you posting

just the same...

[OilemFirchen]

44. Likewise. (n/t)

[newthinking]

47. How long have you been reading reports here?? There have been plenty

of article linked (to progressive/liberal sites) regarding Svoboda and how they went out and threatened the media. They have is severely under control. As long as they approach and cover it as Svoboda wants it, they are fine. If not... they lose their job, or worse, like this:

Or these guys will come to visit:

[Cha]

51. K thanks Oilem

[davidpdx]

53. Both sides were tossing petrol bombs

(or whatever you want to call them) and both sides had casualties. Things have gotten so far out of hand, but then again that is what Putin is counting on.

[OilemFirchen]

54. A BBC snippet:

Pictures clearly showed pro-Ukrainians throwing Molotov cocktails towards the floor.

But (eyewitness) Sergey said he saw someone "on the third floor throw a Molotov cocktail through the closed window. However, the glass didn't break and a fire started inside".

How did Odessa's fire happen?

Plenty of grist in there for the all-knowing Pootiebots as well. Otherwise, a very detailed chronicle for those of us who have no idea what happened and the decency to wait until there is a full investigation.