Ukraine separatists plan to go ahead with referendum despite Putin's calls for dialogue.

[dipsydoodle]

Source: Deutsche Welle

Separatists in eastern Ukraine have said they will go ahead with a referendum slated for the weekend. The decision was made despite a surprise call from the Russian president to seek dialogue with Kyiv.


After weeks of violent clashes with government forces in Ukraine, the self-proclaimed leaders of Ukraine's separatist movement said they would move ahead with plans to hold a controversial referendum slated for Sunday. Separatist leaders in the flashpoint cities of Slavyansk and Donetsk briefed reporters on their decision on Thursday.

The previous day Russian Vladimir Putin urged the referendum supporters – considered to be in favor of closer ties with Moscow, and possibly, joining the Russian Federation – to delay the vote amid escalating violence in Ukraine.

However, the call for dialogue appeared to have no effect on their plans.

"We have just voted in the People's Council...The date of the referendum was endorsed by 100 percent. The referendum will take place on May 11," rebel leader Denis Pushilin said.

Read more: http://www.dw.de/ukraine-separatists-plan-to-go-ahead-with-referendum-despite-putins-calls-for-dialogue/a-17619156

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Second east Ukraine region snubs Putin call to delay vote - RIA.

(Reuters) - Separatists in the east Ukrainian region of Luhansk on Thursday rejected an appeal by Russian President Vladimir Putin to delay an independence referendum, RIA news agency quoted a separatist group there as saying.

The rebel group, the Army of the Southeast, told RIA the referendum would go ahead as planned on Sunday.

Interfax news agency quoted pro-Moscow separatists in Ukraine's eastern provincial capital of Donetsk as also saying the referendum would go ahead.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/05/08/ukraine-crisis-referendum-luhansk-idUKL6N0NU35S20140508

[sarge43]

1. Sowing winds and reaping whirlwinds, Vlad. It seldom ends well. n/t

[Adrahil]

2. I haven't decided what I think of this.

One part of me think Putin is sincere about walking this whole thing back, another part thinks this is all political theater and that he's saying one thing publicly and and another privately. We'll see, I suppose.

[bemildred]

3. I'm not surprised. nt

[The Magistrate]

4. Still, Sir, It Is Not a Good Idea

Such an exercise will have no legitimacy.

[bemildred]

5. Yeah, but how to convince them?

I've been worried that this would come up when Putin backed off. But it's early yet, they may come around, things may change, a day is a long time sometimes. This would be a good time for Yats & his minions to say something conciliatory. There have been some steps in that direction going on in the background, but an amnesty would be nice, or re-emphasizing the one already out there, or something nebulously positive.

[The Magistrate]

6. An Amnesty Would Need To Be Closely Tailored, Sir

There have been capital crimes committed, and a good deal of grand-scale theft. There is every likelihood persons in the upper reaches of the separatist leadership have been involved. An amnesty for political offenses, sedition and what not, would still leave the leadership and its cadre open to prosecution for murder and larceny, and so is unlikely to be accepted by them. Though it could leave them somewhat stranded.

A agree it would be a good time for a solid framework for federalization of a reasonable degree to emanate from Kiev.

More forceful public expression by Putin would certainly be of assistance. A public statement that he would not recognize such a referendum as legitimate of binding in any way would probably put paid to the prospect of the farce being carried through.

For there is no doubt a secession referendum in those places, under conditions extant, would be rigged to such a degree as would shock the ghosts of our old Chicago aldermen....

[bemildred]

7. The current offer, IIRC, omits capital and other crimes.

And was somewhat nebulous, like I said. Perhaps to just re-emphasize it.

I wouldn't want to rely too much on Putin here, to calm things down.

Nobody will recognize them, that's the thing. They cannot continue in isolation, their public support is shallow. Logistics will come into play. Best avoid the whole mess, it won't be pretty.

Edit: and there is an election that needs to be held.

[The Magistrate]

8. It Is Best To Do Something To Separate The Sheep From The Rams, Sir, I Certainly Agree

That is the essence of successfully suppressing this sort of thing, to come up with something which gives the foot soldiers no particular reason to keep at it, and leaves the leadership and fanatic out on their oddy-knocky.

But at that point, the leadership and cadre still have to be winkled out, though certainly 'allowed to flee' can have the same effect if there is someone to take them....

Putin bears sufficient responsibility for having brought things to their present pitch that he certainly ought to bear the onus of standing them down.

[bemildred]

10. I'm just saying that I don't think you can rely on him to do that.

But if you expect him to have a moral epiphany, I suppose I must concede the possibility.

[The Magistrate]

11. I Do Not Have Great Expectations, Sir, Certainly

But should the position he has struck in the east become obviously bankrupt, shutting it down might come to seem the best means of saving face.

[dipsydoodle]

9. Ukraine Says Special Op to Continue Regardless of Referendum Decision

KIEV, May 8 (RIA Novosti) – The Kiev authorities’ special operation in southeastern Ukraine will continue regardless of the decision of the Donetsk People’s Republic to hold a referendum on the region’s status, a senior Ukrainian official said Thursday.

Andriy Parubiy, the Secretary of the Committee on National Security, said that according to the country’s laws, the DPR does not have the right to hold the vote.

“If [the date of the referendum] is going to be postponed or they announce the results of the referendum does not make any difference. The anti-terrorist operation will continue," Parubiy said during a press conference.

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140508/189668939/Ukraine-Says-Special-Op-to-Continue-Regardless-of-Referendum.html

[The Magistrate]

12. They Pretty Much Have To, Sir

At present, anyway, a good argument can be made that it is the application of force which has produced a certain easing of the situation, and if that is the case, backing off just now would likely forfeit the good effect.

[socialist_n_TN]

13. So how does this square with the meme that Putin is behind.....

ALL of the troubles in eastern Ukraine? Also, how can an UNELECTED government, which came to power on the strength of street violence and threats of death to ACTUAL elected officials, have anything to say about the legitimacy of the eastern Ukrainians?

There ARE other elements in play in eastern Ukraine. It's not all a Cold War sequel. Some folks in eastern Ukraine want a worker's government NOT beholden to the oligarchs or the fascists.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

15. It's a good thing that the people running the show in Eastern Ukraine are legitimate and elected

For example, like this fine gentleman:



Yeah, these are the people demanding the referendum. And polls to this very day show that they are in minority even in that region, but a very forceful and armed one.

And you're a damned fool if this referendum is supposedly about Eastern Ukrainian independence. They are waiving the Russian flag and chanting for Russia. These people want a Russian takeover. And with that in mind, your claim that they don't want to be beholden to oligarchs is hilarious, given that that's all there is in Moscow.

As for Putin's proclamations, it's pretty clear that Putin's word is worth fractions on the ruble. We all remember his insistence that Russian military were not assisting the Crimean annexation effort.

[The Magistrate]

16. Nobody In East Ukraine, Sir

Shows any sign of going all Makhnovshchina, which seems to be what you are suggesting is an important element in the situation....

[Igel]

17. There continues to be a denial of a sort at play.

The "unelected" government would be the one that was put in place by the thoroughly elected legislature.

It's rather like what would happen if Obama were to flee out of panic at something or other, found to be hopeless corrupt and in it with Biden, only to have Biden impeached a day later.

Nobody elected to the White House would be in the White House. instead it would be Boehner. Would he be "unelected" in that position? To be sure. But he'd be appointed. And be fully authorized to serve out the remaining portion of the term. Now, people might not like that, but that's how it is. "Illegitimate" isn't a matter of personal prejudice and decontextualized, "Well, I think ...".

In the case of Ukraine, Yanukovich fled and the prime minister was replaced. With most of the cabinet gone and the top leaders gone (fled to Russia or other countries), something needed to be done. So Yatseniuk was appointed, isn't running for office, and the first thing the new government did was schedule elections to organize its own replacement.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

18. Gerald Ford was "unelected" too.

He was neither at the top nor the bottom of the 1972 ticket.

Yet he without a doubt, he was considered a legitimate president.

[uhnope]

14. It gives Putin plausible deniability

Could just be a move to make the "separatists" look independent when they have been armed, aided and even staffed by the Kremlin.