Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

hue

(4,949 posts)
Tue May 27, 2014, 08:31 AM May 2014

Pakistan woman stoned to death by family for marrying man she loved

Source: Reuters

(Reuters) - A 25-year-old woman was stoned to death by her family outside one of Pakistan's top courts on Tuesday in a so-called "honor" killing for marrying the man she loved, police said.

Farzana Iqbal was waiting for the High Court in the eastern city of Lahore to open when a group of around dozen men began attacking her with bricks, said Umer Cheema, a senior police officer.

Her father, two brothers and former fiance were among the attackers, he said. Iqbal suffered severe head injuries and was pronounced dead in hospital, police said.

All the suspects except her father escaped. He admitted killing his daughter, Cheema said, and explained it was a matter of honor. Many Pakistani families think a woman marrying her own choice of man brings dishonor on the family...
...Around 1,000 Pakistani women are killed every year by their families in honor killings, according to Pakistani rights group the Aurat Foundation.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/27/us-pakistan-honourkillings-idUSKBN0E711A20140527



Misogyny kills.
146 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Pakistan woman stoned to death by family for marrying man she loved (Original Post) hue May 2014 OP
hush now. think of all the real evil going on in Venezuela reddread May 2014 #1
Another victim of the global War on Women theHandpuppet May 2014 #2
a really good idea! nt ellenrr May 2014 #6
That describes it exactly......"global war on women" meti57b May 2014 #45
Tradition 1 Love 0 grilled onions May 2014 #3
Now now, must respect cultural differences theHandpuppet May 2014 #4
Oh yes! get the red out May 2014 #26
Other than that awful pun, I think you're doing the "Stone Age" a disservice. Jackpine Radical May 2014 #92
Bingo! +1000 blackspade May 2014 #114
"Honor Based Violence Awareness" website theHandpuppet May 2014 #5
1,000 a year - and probably many more - murdered muriel_volestrangler May 2014 #7
ten times that mopinko May 2014 #11
You mean 1,000 in Pakistan, I think. theHandpuppet May 2014 #24
But we must not criticize cultural/religious attitudes that allow this. hobbit709 May 2014 #8
I have no problem attacking it leftynyc May 2014 #10
...^ that 840high May 2014 #15
Animals are more noble creatures than those pieces of crap. catbyte May 2014 #22
Agree! get the red out May 2014 #27
Many of us do criticize it regularly IronLionZion May 2014 #17
Because they have oil. TBF May 2014 #42
Pakistan has oil? Psephos May 2014 #44
If you'll look back the post said TBF May 2014 #50
Check out TAPI on google juajen May 2014 #116
Ah very interesting - TBF May 2014 #128
No, we should, and we should criticize any religion (which is all of them as far as I know) randys1 May 2014 #79
I'm assuming they arrested the father leftynyc May 2014 #9
This message was self-deleted by its author guyton May 2014 #31
Fucking barbarians leftynyc May 2014 #33
+1 SunSeeker May 2014 #60
Those who think this is a Christian country have a similar vision for our future. EEO May 2014 #12
Bullshit leftynyc May 2014 #30
I do believe there was tyhat one church in NYC that had a sign Scruffy Rumbler May 2014 #41
I believe this is the sign you're talking about theHandpuppet May 2014 #54
Thank you very much! nt Scruffy Rumbler May 2014 #56
They are so popular leftynyc May 2014 #58
In memoriam of the original goal posts - lest they be forgotten: whopis01 May 2014 #87
My mistake for assuming leftynyc May 2014 #91
I wasn't the one who brought it up - that was a different poster whopis01 May 2014 #94
Except for one small detail leftynyc May 2014 #100
I disagree whopis01 May 2014 #109
But there it is leftynyc May 2014 #120
Once again, I disagree whopis01 May 2014 #129
The 10th is also part of our leftynyc May 2014 #131
Of course it is. But that wasn't the point, was it? whopis01 May 2014 #134
They are a christian group... Scruffy Rumbler May 2014 #111
No - I'm not a Christian leftynyc May 2014 #123
try reading some of the crap that comes from the xian reichwing, and has for DECADES. proposing niyad May 2014 #46
Spare me leftynyc May 2014 #59
do any of these people have power? have you been paying attention to the crap that is coming niyad May 2014 #63
Seriously? leftynyc May 2014 #66
oh my, so totally clueless. or is it detterminedly clueless? sad, just. . . sad. niyad May 2014 #68
Yawn leftynyc May 2014 #69
you mean, the way you minimize what women go through in this country, yes? niyad May 2014 #70
I've been fighting for women's rights leftynyc May 2014 #72
keep trying, I need the laughs. you have no idea how old I am (although others here do). niyad May 2014 #74
. . niyad May 2014 #84
Women in America will be killed soon for engaging in coitus randys1 May 2014 #80
but, according to some, we should not complain, because we have it so much better than others. niyad May 2014 #81
Yes, no complaining if you are Black, Woman or Gay or Latino or Jewish randys1 May 2014 #83
You May Wish To Look Up RJ Rushdoony and His Religious Right Fans n/t Vogon_Glory May 2014 #52
Why? leftynyc May 2014 #61
The good news is they are never going to get there.... ProudToBeBlueInRhody May 2014 #102
I know this is going to get my post hidden but it needs to be said. This is a Muslim thing. iandhr May 2014 #13
+1 840high May 2014 #16
Not so fast. blackspade May 2014 #21
That they predate Islam is meaningless leftynyc May 2014 #38
Sorry, but the issue is not Islam, per se. blackspade May 2014 #112
Sorry - I disagree leftynyc May 2014 #121
Not so fast, yourself. PK is an Islamic State, ruled by the Koran, so within a 'believer' frame, ancianita May 2014 #39
And killings of women don't happen in 'civilized patriarchal societies?' blackspade May 2014 #113
You cite CRIMES not legitimized by religion or our culture. Period. These murders are uncivilized. ancianita May 2014 #136
Violence against women is violence against women, regardless of the excuses used to legitimize it. blackspade May 2014 #140
Have it your way. From a woman's point of view, any belief system that legitimizes rape or murder is ancianita May 2014 #144
It's not really a remedy in most Islamic legal codes either. blackspade May 2014 #145
Hush now no one wants to hear that stuff ya know azurnoir May 2014 #43
If it were only that simple. Religions are used to justify killings & assaults against women. hue May 2014 #73
HELL YES get the red out May 2014 #28
If I were on the jury, I wouldn't vote to hide it. cosmicone May 2014 #76
Somehow Islam is better than other religions at getting entwined with government treestar May 2014 #124
Coming soon to a country nearby: raging religious rule mountain grammy May 2014 #14
Didn't Michele Bachman sorefeet May 2014 #23
I call those women stockholmies. ancianita May 2014 #35
They are called Red State Women in the South. DhhD May 2014 #47
Fuck these assholes. blackspade May 2014 #18
Short and simple...I agree. Rhinodawg May 2014 #127
Islam is 600 years younger The Wizard May 2014 #19
So what? leftynyc May 2014 #32
Except that the last 'witch' was executed barely over 230 years ago. blackspade May 2014 #115
Ah another thread Union Scribe May 2014 #119
230 years ago? leftynyc May 2014 #122
You misunderstand. blackspade May 2014 #132
It's very nice that you want leftynyc May 2014 #133
In what way have I 'defended' these practices? blackspade May 2014 #141
They don't have broad support though treestar May 2014 #125
Islam has existed since the 7th century cosmicone May 2014 #78
“Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.” catbyte May 2014 #20
That is so sad. raccoon May 2014 #25
Depends on the religion a lot of times get the red out May 2014 #29
These men are dishonorable, murderous cowards, the worst of humanity. ancianita May 2014 #34
Yes, but Benghazi! valerief May 2014 #36
Fucking dipshit primitive idiots... truebrit71 May 2014 #37
Fucking barbarians. MynameisBlarney May 2014 #40
but. . .there is NO war on women! niyad May 2014 #48
Deuteronomy 22-21 Thespian2 May 2014 #49
Deuteronomy 22-21, is menaingless unless you read Deuteronomy 13-21 as a whole happyslug May 2014 #64
Thank you Thespian2 May 2014 #98
I did point out the one case actually mentioned in the bible.... happyslug May 2014 #103
Let me know when it's the law of the land leftynyc May 2014 #130
Say it any way you want Thespian2 May 2014 #135
I Hope That The US ICE Remembers The Identities Of These Barbarians AND Vogon_Glory May 2014 #51
As little as 3 centuries ago, Christian churches were torturing and burning to death at the stake Cal33 May 2014 #53
I don't think the religion being younger is any consolation treestar May 2014 #126
True. But fanatics are fanatics. They will not change. And we have quite a large number of our Cal33 May 2014 #139
These cultures seem to have a very different view of family then we do. Marrah_G May 2014 #55
Disgusting, barbaric people. Nye Bevan May 2014 #57
Religion claims yet another victim. Arugula Latte May 2014 #62
Not all "religions" are equal. Some religions say "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Nye Bevan May 2014 #65
The major religions strive to legitimize the irrational and lionize factless "faith." Arugula Latte May 2014 #67
If you stick to the Gospels you pretty much won't go wrong. Nye Bevan May 2014 #71
This has NOTHING to do with Religion, Islam condemns such acts. happyslug May 2014 #86
Normally I would agree that it is a question of social norms, WCLinolVir May 2014 #90
From what I have read, Islamization has NOT increased the rate of such marriages happyslug May 2014 #93
...sickos. SoapBox May 2014 #75
Just awful shenmue May 2014 #77
Pakistan is 95-97% Muslim. WCLinolVir May 2014 #82
Wouldn't it be nice if a respected local religious figure could reason with the mob, Nye Bevan May 2014 #85
Sure would. The lack of humanity is heart wrenching. WCLinolVir May 2014 #88
"mob" or "group" meaning Her FAMILY!!! hue May 2014 #99
sick, sick culture Skittles May 2014 #89
Makes me sick sakabatou May 2014 #95
The horror this poor woman must have experienced, watching her dad and brothers stoning her. SunSeeker May 2014 #96
Where were the police, you ask? theHandpuppet May 2014 #104
That is messed up. How do you kill your daughter(or sister) and go on with your life? zonkers May 2014 #97
because you do not see females as actual human beings Skittles May 2014 #101
Bingo theHandpuppet May 2014 #105
She brought dishonor to the family? But killing your own daughter doesn't? tclambert May 2014 #106
Just awful LeftishBrit May 2014 #107
another isolated incident noiretextatique May 2014 #108
Stone age behavior. N/T devils chaplain May 2014 #110
Stuff like this truly makes my blood turn cold. How sickening. antiGOPin294 May 2014 #117
There is no "honor," in this brutal murder. nilesobek May 2014 #118
The only dishonor was committed by the family. Beacool May 2014 #137
As usual, selfishness is the cause of most of the evil in this world cpwm17 May 2014 #138
UPDATE: Parveen was pregnant and police just stood by while she was murdered theHandpuppet May 2014 #142
The statistics theHandpuppet May 2014 #143
Pakistani man protesting 'honour killing' admits strangling first wife muriel_volestrangler May 2014 #146
 

reddread

(6,896 posts)
1. hush now. think of all the real evil going on in Venezuela
Tue May 27, 2014, 08:39 AM
May 2014

Leave Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and all of our friends out of it.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
2. Another victim of the global War on Women
Tue May 27, 2014, 08:43 AM
May 2014

Maybe if a "women's death clock" was erected on Times Square it might sink in to a few people how women are dying every hour of every day because of this shit.

meti57b

(3,584 posts)
45. That describes it exactly......"global war on women"
Tue May 27, 2014, 11:25 AM
May 2014

I always think how truly fortunate I am to be born in the United States, and able to get an education and a well-paid job. However, I always think of the women elsewhere, about these "honor killings", boko haram.......

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
4. Now now, must respect cultural differences
Tue May 27, 2014, 08:45 AM
May 2014

Especially if it only involves maiming, enslaving and killing women.

get the red out

(13,460 posts)
26. Oh yes!
Tue May 27, 2014, 09:48 AM
May 2014

Especially when it only involves stoneage treatment of women. We have to realize that they have chosen that lifestyle by being born into it, and must obey their rules and we have no right to even talk about human rights or women's rights in this case so long as our country is so wicked and evil; and especially since somewhere, someplace a construction worker just whistled at a woman walking down the street.

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
92. Other than that awful pun, I think you're doing the "Stone Age" a disservice.
Tue May 27, 2014, 02:26 PM
May 2014

All this "women-as-property" crap probably goes back to patriarchy, which in turn arose sometime after the widespread implementation of agriculture. Women in most so-called "primitive" societies fared much better than they did after humans figured our how to raise enough surplus food to support one or another sort of hierarchical structure.

Not that I advocate a return to the conditions of a preliterate society, but it is definitely time for us to move on from this patriarchy bullshit and develop some 21st-century partnership models for mutual aid and survival during the coming times of climate change, destruction of the aquifers, poisoning of the oceans, and worldwide failures of fossil-fuel-driven agriculture.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
24. You mean 1,000 in Pakistan, I think.
Tue May 27, 2014, 09:41 AM
May 2014

The global figure is something like 5,000 per year but I suspect it's actually much higher.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
10. I have no problem attacking it
Tue May 27, 2014, 09:02 AM
May 2014

Any woman that lives under sharia law is a target and anyone who thinks a woman deserves to be stone to death for any reason is an animal.

IronLionZion

(45,380 posts)
17. Many of us do criticize it regularly
Tue May 27, 2014, 09:28 AM
May 2014

there is no justifying this abuse and murder. Murder is murder.

TBF

(32,012 posts)
50. If you'll look back the post said
Tue May 27, 2014, 11:43 AM
May 2014

nothing about Pakistan specifically, it was general: "But we must not criticize cultural/religious attitudes that allow this."

My point is that sometimes we seem to defer because we are dependent upon their oil. Obviously that applies more to Saudi Arabia: oil imports: http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0_mbbl_m.htm

My off the cuff guess on Pakistan is that we leave them alone because they are considered an important ally of Saudi Arabia: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/01/saudi-pakistan-investment-alliance-cooperation-military.html#

juajen

(8,515 posts)
116. Check out TAPI on google
Tue May 27, 2014, 11:31 PM
May 2014

Large pipeline going through Pakistan. I've mentioned this pipeline before; Tazjakistan (?), Afghanistan, Pakistan and India are the countries that this important pipeline is going through. I think I got them all right. Very interesting reading.

TBF

(32,012 posts)
128. Ah very interesting -
Wed May 28, 2014, 07:18 AM
May 2014

a pipeline in the works and they also have nuclear weapons which makes it dicier.

It's really too bad. I wish we could provide an escape for all the women who wish to leave those oppressive countries (probably a few men wouldn't mind getting out of there as well ...).



randys1

(16,286 posts)
79. No, we should, and we should criticize any religion (which is all of them as far as I know)
Tue May 27, 2014, 01:15 PM
May 2014

Which puts women beneath men...

Just because some societies or religions no longer kill Women for perceived offenses, wait, we still do that in America, so never mind...

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
9. I'm assuming they arrested the father
Tue May 27, 2014, 09:00 AM
May 2014

although they don't say that - only that the other attackers escaped. Since they know her two brothers and former fiance were among the attackers, can we assume there is an all out search going on to put these animals (along with her father) in jail?

My guess is they'll all get away with it or get a couple of months in jail tops before they release them back to their stellar society.

Response to leftynyc (Reply #9)

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
33. Fucking barbarians
Tue May 27, 2014, 10:00 AM
May 2014

And that includes every single person who defends this and those HERE who whine about cultural sensitivity.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
30. Bullshit
Tue May 27, 2014, 09:52 AM
May 2014

Unless you can name one person - elected or not - who says they want honor crimes or stoning as a punishment, you're simply trying to change the subject and deflect from what some Muslims have done to bastardize Islam.

Scruffy Rumbler

(961 posts)
41. I do believe there was tyhat one church in NYC that had a sign
Tue May 27, 2014, 10:51 AM
May 2014

proclaiming that they want to stone Gays....That includes some women.

That's one....


Here we just deny the woman life saving medical care.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
58. They are so popular
Tue May 27, 2014, 12:16 PM
May 2014

I've never heard of them. Got any REAL evidence that would explain the yearning of so many on DU to try and compare what women have to deal with in the US with those who live under sharia? If you think not getting birth control paid for or available under health insurance claims even begins to compare with what happens to women and girls every single day in sharia law countries, then you're just being dishonest.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
91. My mistake for assuming
Tue May 27, 2014, 02:25 PM
May 2014

you wouldn't find one crazy ass group that has no power whatsoever as equal to state sponsored stoning. Also my mistake for assuming you'd be intellectually honest.

whopis01

(3,491 posts)
94. I wasn't the one who brought it up - that was a different poster
Tue May 27, 2014, 03:44 PM
May 2014

I just found it funny that you specifically said fine me any person - that was obviously going to be easy.

To be honest, I don't think either of you are being very intellectually honest. I don't believe that there are any serious attempts by people in significant positions of power (or by popular support) to allow stoning as a punishment. So I agree with you in that sense.

But that also isn't quite what the other poster said. They said that those who believe this is a christian country have a similar vision for our future - and if you take a relaxed interpretation of that (you know - like you expected people to with you 'find one person' statement), there is a degree of truth there.

And that degree of truth is that those who believe this is (or should be) a "christian" country want christianity (or some interpretation of it) to be the basis of our laws. What else would being a christian country really mean?

And that would mean that they want the basis of our laws to not be the collective moral opinion of society, but rather religious writings set out millennia ago. And as such they would be far more immutable than our current system of laws.

So, while I agree with you that no one of significance is calling for the legalization of stoning, I would say that a legal system based on the interpretation of religious writings is sought after by a great many. And that is a similar vision to those that wish to enforce their intepretation of islamic law.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
100. Except for one small detail
Tue May 27, 2014, 04:59 PM
May 2014

The US constitution. You would have to amend the entire document to allow biblical interpretations of laws (and I frankly don't know of anyone who has run on that ticket for as even an Independent).

whopis01

(3,491 posts)
109. I disagree
Tue May 27, 2014, 07:56 PM
May 2014

First, the discussion was not whether or not they would be successful, but whether or not that was their vision for how the country should be governed.

Second, you would have to do no such thing. It isn't a matter of allowing biblical interpretation of laws. It is a matter of writing legislature based on biblical interpretation. For example, take the Defense of Marriage Act - the second section allows states to refuse to recognize marriages between same-sex couples. While other parts of that law have been struck down, this remains in effect. Do you believe that the motivation behind this was anything other than imposition of (an interpreted) bible-based law? I do not. And the part that was struck down (the federal definition of marriage being between a man and woman), it was only done so through a 5-4 decision - the narrowest margin possible.

I could go on with other examples - that is just the first to pop into mind

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
120. But there it is
Wed May 28, 2014, 05:07 AM
May 2014

struck down because we have a 14th amendment. Scalia was right - it will lead to a more open interpretation of marriage (to his chagrin and to my delight). So much of religious doctrine is based on gender - we have a document that says we are all entitled to the same rights - that's a very big hurdle. Look at the things we have court cases on - school prayer, charter schools, etc. That's a very, very far cry from fathers being allowed to kill their daughters for not marrying the right person or living a certain kind of life, a very very far cry from banning holy books that are different from the "state" religion. I'm not saying not to fight against having religion in public places or paid for by our taxes - those are worthy arguments to have. All I'm saying is that pretending our first world issues with religion are on par with honor killings is not only ridiculous as a comparison, it minimizes what is happening to our sisters in countries with sharia law.

whopis01

(3,491 posts)
129. Once again, I disagree
Wed May 28, 2014, 07:44 AM
May 2014

First it is important to acknowledge that only one section of this law was "struck down". The portion that allows states to refuse to allow same sex marriage is still the law of the land.

Second, the portion that was struck down was not done so under the 14th amendment. It certainly seems that the equal protection clause should apply, but that is not what the Supreme Court decided. It was found to violate the 5th amendment's due process clause.

So can you say, but it was still found unconstitutional? Yes - but let's examine the details. Because the details are important. The Supreme Court did NOT decide that equal protection applied in this case. They decided that if a state grants someone a marriage, the federal government can not refuse to recognize that marriage. However, states are free to deny same sex marriage to their residents.

So in the end they granted little if no protection from the constitution. They merely said that the federal government isn't going to step into this - it is up to each state to decide and the federal government will honor the states' decisions. Whether that decision is in favor or against same sex marriage.



 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
131. The 10th is also part of our
Wed May 28, 2014, 07:51 AM
May 2014

founding laws. That's just reality. I was thinking more Lincoln v Texas (that's the decision Scalia made that point on). Just because they have idiot blue laws in the south (and in CT which I found out just this last weekend) doesn't mean NYers have to abide by them and I'm very glad that's the case. Our laws go forward. very, very rarely backward. How that compares with laws written from holy books that allow parents to murder their children or keep women from inheritance or a whole host of other misogynist nonsense is beyond me. These murders in Pakistan are state sponsored - the murderers are considered heroes by many. HOw can you compare US law to that primitive bullshit?

whopis01

(3,491 posts)
134. Of course it is. But that wasn't the point, was it?
Wed May 28, 2014, 08:39 AM
May 2014

Yes the 10th amendment exists. Yes it can be used by states to deny equal rights (even at the federal level) to their residents. But this is getting far afield from the point I was making.

I have made my point. You may not agree with it, and that is, of course, fine. However, you are now attempting to reframe what I have said into something that it is not.


HOw can you compare US law to that primitive bullshit?"


At no point did I ever do that.

Scruffy Rumbler

(961 posts)
111. They are a christian group...
Tue May 27, 2014, 09:24 PM
May 2014

they are a church....
They believe stoning is a viable solution.

Claim them. They are yours.

niyad

(113,074 posts)
46. try reading some of the crap that comes from the xian reichwing, and has for DECADES. proposing
Tue May 27, 2014, 11:33 AM
May 2014

the death penalty for women who commit adultery (but not the men with whom they commit it), women who have abortions, women who refuse to follow the patriarchal bs-it is all there, rebellious teens. it is all there, in print, for anyone who wants to take the time to look. "wives shall be submissive to their husbands" (a plank in the southern baptist convention so offensive that many people left.) think about marital rape, domestic violence, child abuse--a difference in degree, not kind.

get your head out of the sand--the wack jobs of the christian reich are no different from those we condemn in other religions.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
59. Spare me
Tue May 27, 2014, 12:18 PM
May 2014

Do any of these people have any power? Have any who espouse these views been elected? Do any of our elected officials support this? All you're doing is minimizing what these women and girls have to deal with every single day under sharia law.

niyad

(113,074 posts)
63. do any of these people have power? have you been paying attention to the crap that is coming
Tue May 27, 2014, 12:27 PM
May 2014

out of nearly every single legislature around the country, at all levels? YOU spare me, because you apparently have not got one single clue about the war on women in THIS country.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
66. Seriously?
Tue May 27, 2014, 12:35 PM
May 2014

You're going to seriously compare the fact we don't have equal pay or that birth control is not covered under insurance to getting STONED TO DEATH for marrying the wrong person? I'm well aware of the daily bullshit that women have to go through in this country but it's still head and shoulders above the treatment of women living under sharia law. Stop with the bullshit making that ridiculous comparison. All it does is show you're willing to minimize the behavior of religious animals under sharia so you can pretend it's the same for women here. It's not. Not even close.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
69. Yawn
Tue May 27, 2014, 12:43 PM
May 2014

Go ahead, minimize what these women go through. Now I know to never take you seriously. Ta ta.

niyad

(113,074 posts)
70. you mean, the way you minimize what women go through in this country, yes?
Tue May 27, 2014, 12:45 PM
May 2014

yawn all you wish, your agenda is depressingly clear.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
72. I've been fighting for women's rights
Tue May 27, 2014, 12:48 PM
May 2014

in this country for longer than you've been alive (only a very young person would try and compare the lives of American women to those who live under shara - young and naive). It's your agenda - the US MUST suck worse than everywhere else - that's pathetically predictable. And now I'm done with you as you are obviously an unserious person.

niyad

(113,074 posts)
74. keep trying, I need the laughs. you have no idea how old I am (although others here do).
Tue May 27, 2014, 12:54 PM
May 2014

I did not say the US sucks worse--that is your extrapolation. you are, of course, welcome to your view of me.

niyad

(113,074 posts)
84. . .
Tue May 27, 2014, 01:25 PM
May 2014

. . .


. . .
We have allowed ourselves to believe, for a long time, that the misogynist subcultures flourishing on- and offline in the past half-decade, the vengeful sexism seeding in resentment in a time of rage and austerity, is best ignored. We have allowed ourselves to believe that those fetid currents aren’t really real, that they don’t matter, that they have no relation to "real-world" violence. But if the Isla Vista massacre is the first confirmed incident of an incident of gross and bloody violence directly linked to the culture of ‘Men’s Rights’ activism and Pickup Artist (PUA) ideology, an ideology that preys on lost, angry men, then it cannot be ignored or dismissed any more.

We like to think that violent misogyny - not sexism, but misogyny, woman-hatred as ideology and practice, weaponised contempt for one half of the human race - isn’t something that really happens in the so-called West. No matter how many wives and girlfriends are murdered by their husbands, no matter how many rapists are let off because of their "promising careers", violence against women is something that happens elsewhere, somewhere foreign, or historical, or both. So anxious are we to retain this convenient delusion that any person, particularly any female person, who attempts to raise a counter argument can expect to be harassed and shouted down.

. . .

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/05/26-4

randys1

(16,286 posts)
80. Women in America will be killed soon for engaging in coitus
Tue May 27, 2014, 01:19 PM
May 2014

When they dont use birth control, get pregnant, and want it terminated as many states now have made it impossible to get abortions

They will be murdered by that state for being Women...

Coming to a rightwing state near you very soon, actually, exists today...

http://fusion.net/american_dream/story/texas-abortion-ban-limits-abortions-11786

niyad

(113,074 posts)
81. but, according to some, we should not complain, because we have it so much better than others.
Tue May 27, 2014, 01:20 PM
May 2014

randys1

(16,286 posts)
83. Yes, no complaining if you are Black, Woman or Gay or Latino or Jewish
Tue May 27, 2014, 01:23 PM
May 2014

We arent baking you in ovens, so shut up.

In fact, your typical American rightwing Christian, and now I speak ONLY of those on the right, I guess far right, do want to use their religion to punish and discriminate, would they go this far?

maybe

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
61. Why?
Tue May 27, 2014, 12:21 PM
May 2014

Do these assholes have any power or support from elected officials? How do they effect me life in the slightest? Quite unlike what is happening to these women under sharia law which is state sponsored. If you can compare stonings and punishments for marrying the wrong person to women not getting equal pay or not having their birth control covered by insurance, that's your problem (and a big problem at that). Women in this country will NEVER have to put up with that kind of bullshit and I'm sure the women who do are thrilled so many liberals minimize their pain with bullshit arguments.

ProudToBeBlueInRhody

(16,399 posts)
102. The good news is they are never going to get there....
Tue May 27, 2014, 05:12 PM
May 2014

The bad news is other countries seem to be stepping up their efforts with their own religious idiocy.

iandhr

(6,852 posts)
13. I know this is going to get my post hidden but it needs to be said. This is a Muslim thing.
Tue May 27, 2014, 09:15 AM
May 2014

Bill Maher said best. When it comes to Islam liberals don't stand up for liberalism. He mentioned that a pew survey of Egyptian Muslims said 80% believed that the penalty for leaving the faith should be death.


Or as the Onion put it

http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
21. Not so fast.
Tue May 27, 2014, 09:34 AM
May 2014

These types of cultural practices predate Islam and are common in patriarchal societies worldwide.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
38. That they predate Islam is meaningless
Tue May 27, 2014, 10:27 AM
May 2014

Feel free to post on any thread where it's a different religion being the problem. On this thread (and the VAST majority of others for this type of crime), the issue is Islam.

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
112. Sorry, but the issue is not Islam, per se.
Tue May 27, 2014, 10:08 PM
May 2014

But patriarchal societies that condone violence against women.
Tying this horrific occurrence to Islam gives other patriarchal religions a free pass because they are 'not as bad.'

The fact that we have Christians in our country giving rapists and murderers of women a free pass shows how phobias of the 'other' have clouded the dialog about violence against women.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
121. Sorry - I disagree
Wed May 28, 2014, 05:11 AM
May 2014

Why do we have to bring other religions into the conversation here? When Christianity is bashed (which happens pretty often), nobody feels they need to bring up Islam to show it's as bad or worse. This only happens with Islam which is a very blind spot for progressives. And you're going to have to explain where Christians are using their religion to give rapists and murderers a free pass - I have no idea what that means.

ancianita

(35,934 posts)
39. Not so fast, yourself. PK is an Islamic State, ruled by the Koran, so within a 'believer' frame,
Tue May 27, 2014, 10:31 AM
May 2014

men kill women with impunity when they think they can justify it. Which means that the women acting with any semblance of free will are subject to brutally losing their lives. At the hands of so-called family men. Whom their societies do not then punish.

In civilized patriarchal societies there is usually secular law and order that prevents such human rights abuse. In those societies, the majority of the world, such killing is a crime.

Because it's done in 26 countries out of 57 that are Islamic states should be no consolation to anyone interested in human rights. Believer systems that claim the right to end half their population's life with impunity do not create nations to honor within the community of civilized nations.

And these are just the countries that report:

http://photo.pds.org:5012/cqresearcher/file.php?path=/images/CQ_Researcher/g20110419-killingmap.gif

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
113. And killings of women don't happen in 'civilized patriarchal societies?'
Tue May 27, 2014, 10:14 PM
May 2014
In those societies, the majority of the world, such killing is a crime.


Really? How about rapists given a free pass in our country? How about men getting away domestic violence killings in our country? We need to have a serious look in the mirror before we conclude that this is a 'uncivilized' social problem.

ancianita

(35,934 posts)
136. You cite CRIMES not legitimized by religion or our culture. Period. These murders are uncivilized.
Wed May 28, 2014, 10:30 AM
May 2014

One need not "look in the mirror" or be perfect before one can stand against barbaric murder justified by barbaric beliefs in women's "essential" inferiority. Our patriarchal systems at least give legal redress for domestic abuse, murder or rape.

You're coming as close to an endorsement of this rationalized system of murder as I've ever read here. I won't feel sorry for you. You should know better.

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
140. Violence against women is violence against women, regardless of the excuses used to legitimize it.
Wed May 28, 2014, 07:41 PM
May 2014

Either Islam, or our fucked up justice system that lets rapist and domestic abusers walk free.


And this:


"You're coming as close to an endorsement of this rationalized system of murder as I've ever read here. I won't feel sorry for you. You should know better."


In what way did I 'endorse' a 'rationalized system of murder?' Is a ridiculous statement and shows that you either didn't actually read my post or you don't have any understanding of social science. So no need to feel sorry for me.

ancianita

(35,934 posts)
144. Have it your way. From a woman's point of view, any belief system that legitimizes rape or murder is
Thu May 29, 2014, 10:49 AM
May 2014

more dangerous than women's having recourse to a legal system. I'm surprised that you don't make that distinction just because of the nature of the crimes.

I'd also call stoning a crime, one that doesn't exist as a 'remedy' in Western legal systems.

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
145. It's not really a remedy in most Islamic legal codes either.
Thu May 29, 2014, 01:18 PM
May 2014

In the case of Pakistan there is a stipulation that allows the perp to pay the family to escape the 'justice' system.
These tribal groups exploit this loophole by not having the family require 'payment' from the murderer.

Further review of the facts in this case also show that she was shot at first (which missed) and it was her brother that hit her with a brick. Others then joined in. Not that this changes the fact that she is dead before she could defend herself in court, which is where she was going.

As far as belief systems go, belief is not just religious based. For example in this country, there is an institutionalized belief that women who are provocative in their dress and behavior are 'asking' for their rape and the legal code reinforces this belief by allowing most perps to walk or even avoid prosecution altogether. Is this based on Christianity, the dominant religion? Or is it a deep seated cultural belief?

My point is that making this about Islam misses the root of the issue; the belief that women are somehow 'inferior' and need to be controlled by men. This belief is not endemic to just Muslim countries, but also Asia, Africa, and the 'West' as well.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
43. Hush now no one wants to hear that stuff ya know
Tue May 27, 2014, 11:15 AM
May 2014

same with FGM which is not an Islamic practice either nor only practiced in Islamic countries

There is a interesting division in the replies to this OP, the folks who condemn those directly responsible for the murder of this woman, and this who grasp on to it as an opportunity to condemn 1.6 billion people for their religion but of course some throw in Christianity too

hue

(4,949 posts)
73. If it were only that simple. Religions are used to justify killings & assaults against women.
Tue May 27, 2014, 12:50 PM
May 2014

Beside & behind those who, many times according to Sharia law and the gospel etc., commit the act of murder or "justified assault & rape" there are communities who enable those acts. Laws protect the perpetrators, communities turn a blind eye to what is really going on, the MSM is silent, the courts are bought & sold.
There is an entire culture, bureaucracy, complex system that in some ways supports & refuses to acknowledge what is happening.
It is seen in the Catholic Church and many other conservative x-tian churces, Mormon religion, the stock market & big business, advertisements world wide. One could go on & on....

Individuals couldn't get away with this for generations if the communities did not somehow enable &/or allow it.

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
76. If I were on the jury, I wouldn't vote to hide it.
Tue May 27, 2014, 01:10 PM
May 2014

While the actual perpetrators are directly responsible, their motivation is based in Islam and unless and until liberal to moderate Muslims condemn such atrocities, Islam becomes the guilty party as accessory before the fact.

It is also a sad commentary on Pakistan that an environment, where people can not only think of doing such things but actually carry them out, is fomented and nurtured.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
124. Somehow Islam is better than other religions at getting entwined with government
Wed May 28, 2014, 06:00 AM
May 2014

The idea of separation of state and religion seems far away, relatively. I agree, Christians have done the opposite and fundies have no hope they are going to get the kind of power Islam has over governments. Some of the fanaticism it inspires is almost a reaction against Western power. Boko Haram means no Western Education. (Cue the argument US interference is the cause, but to some extent, it could be). I don't think that 911 happened because of religion, but politics, and in the Islamic world, those things are practically one and the same. The Medieval Catholic Church is the closest comparison.

mountain grammy

(26,598 posts)
14. Coming soon to a country nearby: raging religious rule
Tue May 27, 2014, 09:18 AM
May 2014

which always includes the oppression of women. Wait for it. If women in America don't reject the absolutes of religion, we will soon have it here even as the First Amendment is misinterpreted by the religious fanatics on the Supreme Court. A large number of Americans believe there is no wrong if actions are due to the following the word of God as they see it. Very scary and very dangerous.

sorefeet

(1,241 posts)
23. Didn't Michele Bachman
Tue May 27, 2014, 09:35 AM
May 2014

say that women had to be submissive to their husbands????? The religious right women are all for that shit. Some think they deserve that ass whippin.

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
18. Fuck these assholes.
Tue May 27, 2014, 09:30 AM
May 2014

The fact that they fled says a lot about their 'honor'.
What a bunch of disgusting flesh bags.

The Wizard

(12,536 posts)
19. Islam is 600 years younger
Tue May 27, 2014, 09:31 AM
May 2014

than Christianity. 600 years ago Christians were burning witches. The only thing religious fundamentalists like about modernity is the weaponry.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
32. So what?
Tue May 27, 2014, 09:59 AM
May 2014

Are you in favor of just sitting around until the religious freaks catch up to the rest of the world? Just let them kill girls and women because Christians killed witches over 400 years ago?

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
115. Except that the last 'witch' was executed barely over 230 years ago.
Tue May 27, 2014, 10:50 PM
May 2014

And witches are still condemned and killed by Christians today in parts of Africa.
And Christians didn't just 'kill' women during the Middle Ages, they maimed and tortured and killed them in some of the most brutal ways imaginable.

So, no, no one is wanting to wait for the 'rest of the world' to catch up to our 'enlightened' status.

We have plenty of Christians in this country willing to kill and maim family planning clinic workers and patients, condone the killings of rape victims, and condone domestic violence right here in the good old US of A. Many of them are in positions of power that have a profound effect on women and their access to justice and their Constitutional rights.

Union Scribe

(7,099 posts)
119. Ah another thread
Wed May 28, 2014, 03:34 AM
May 2014

about non-Christians killing someone that becomes a thread about how terrible Christians are. Lol, DU. Land of the moral equivalence fallacy.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
122. 230 years ago?
Wed May 28, 2014, 05:18 AM
May 2014

and therefore.....what? Islam only has a couple of hundred years to become more civilized?

Unless you can't point out a case where a Christian American was allowed to kill his daughter for having a boyfriend and get treated with kid gloves, I have no idea how you can make a comparison. Honor killings are often either ignored completely or killers are given token sentences of a few months. Do you really feel comfortable comparing the two? This "Christianity is just as bad" argument is complete bullshit when it comes to the US. We have many problems but fathers are not allowed to kill their daughters and get away with it for bullshit religious reasons. I will never understand why liberals feel they can bash Christianity all freeking day but shining a light on Islam makes me a hater. It's ridiculous and I'm tired of playing along.

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
132. You misunderstand.
Wed May 28, 2014, 08:26 AM
May 2014

These types of 'honor' killings have cultural roots deeper than Islam. As I pointed out elsewhere in this thread, there are killings in Africa by Christians and killings in India by Hindus that are just as reprehensible that are likewise not caused by religion. So blaming Islam does not address the root of the problem: women as chattel in patriarchal societies. The point I was trying to make is that we in the west are not so far removed from these practices that we can comfortably hang our hat on how civilized we are compared to the rest of the world. That is not to say that we should not scream bloody murder about horrid incidents like this, we should, but we are in no position to be smug about how far we have come as a civilized society when we routinely deny rights to women both in the US and abroad through our laws and policies.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
133. It's very nice that you want
Wed May 28, 2014, 08:32 AM
May 2014

to "defend" these practices because they're cultural but it's still bullshit. I'm blaming Islam because the perpetrators are committing the murders in the name of Islam - they're getting light sentences because they're religion based. And yes, we are hundreds of years beyond burning witches so I have no problem saying we're better evolved. Forgive me for not buying into the bullshit that the US is so horrid that we have no right to judge. I see a HUGE difference between parents being allowed to kill their daughters and women not getting equal pay - I'm sorry you don't but that's not my problem.

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
141. In what way have I 'defended' these practices?
Wed May 28, 2014, 07:48 PM
May 2014

Do you have problems with reading comprehension?

Judge all you want, I do and have. but judge based on the root of the problem not the religious veneer that many use to justify the murder and rape of women. The root it a patrimonial worldview that treats women as chattel, a worldview that is not only depressingly prevalent in Islamic countries but in the West, Africa, and Asia.

And equal pay? why did you throw that out there? I was discussing rape and domestic violence.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
125. They don't have broad support though
Wed May 28, 2014, 06:01 AM
May 2014

There are still enough godless liberals out there to stop them getting what they want. Pakistan is 99% Muslim, too, no diversity.

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
78. Islam has existed since the 7th century
Tue May 27, 2014, 01:14 PM
May 2014

and it started with brutality, rapes, forced conversions and cruel invasions. Whilst the invasions have stopped (since non-Muslim countries have become stronger) the brutality persists even after 1700+ years of Islam's existence.

The witch burning occurred when there was far less dissemination of knowledge and science. The environment was different. There is no excuse for such a behavior in this day and age.

catbyte

(34,338 posts)
20. “Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”
Tue May 27, 2014, 09:32 AM
May 2014

Margaret Atwood

raccoon

(31,105 posts)
25. That is so sad.
Tue May 27, 2014, 09:42 AM
May 2014

edited to add: and so disgusting that people do that in the name of religion. I guess that is supposed to make it OK,
in some people's minds.


get the red out

(13,460 posts)
29. Depends on the religion a lot of times
Tue May 27, 2014, 09:51 AM
May 2014

If Christians ever get the power to do this, people will go ape shit wild. Others, we just have to understand.......

ancianita

(35,934 posts)
34. These men are dishonorable, murderous cowards, the worst of humanity.
Tue May 27, 2014, 10:12 AM
May 2014

Women die over patriarchal believer crap -- the cover for misogyny -- that makes meat puppets out of the female half of humanity all the damned time.

Girls born into the believer jungle are always the prey. A girl child can't even trust her own family to value her life over her father's honor. Brothers are rarely their sisters' allies. Mothers are cowed into silent bereavement and sex servitude. Just for being born without a penis.

There will never be honor in killing women whose very humanity rests on exercising their free will.

Fuck these guys. Fuck their belief system. Fuck their domination.



valerief

(53,235 posts)
36. Yes, but Benghazi!
Tue May 27, 2014, 10:15 AM
May 2014

Amazing how fundy religions like Islam and Christian value women--almost as much as Congress values vets--in lip service only.

niyad

(113,074 posts)
48. but. . .there is NO war on women!
Tue May 27, 2014, 11:37 AM
May 2014

further reading in the article brings this disturbing, although not surprising, information:

. . . .
Around 1,000 Pakistani women are killed every year by their families in honor killings, according to Pakistani rights group the Aurat Foundation.

The true figure is probably many times higher since the Aurat Foundation only compiles figures from newspaper reports. The government does not compile national statistics.

Campaigners say few cases come to court, and those that do can take years to be heard. No one tracks how many cases are successfully prosecuted.

. . . .

Thespian2

(2,741 posts)
49. Deuteronomy 22-21
Tue May 27, 2014, 11:38 AM
May 2014

American Standard Version
then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.

For all who believe the Old Testament is the true word of God.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
64. Deuteronomy 22-21, is menaingless unless you read Deuteronomy 13-21 as a whole
Tue May 27, 2014, 12:32 PM
May 2014
13 “If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and then hates her 14 and accuses her of misconduct and brings a bad name upon her, saying, ‘I took this woman, and when I came near her, I did not find in her evidence of virginity,’ 15 then the father of the young woman and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of her virginity to the elders of the city in the gate. 16 And the father of the young woman shall say to the elders, ‘I gave my daughter to this man to marry, and he hates her; 17 and behold, he has accused her of misconduct, saying, “I did not find in your daughter evidence of virginity.” And yet this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.’ And they shall spread the cloak before the elders of the city. 18 Then the elders of that city shall take the man and whip him, 19 and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the father of the young woman, because he has brought a bad name upon a virgin of Israel. And she shall be his wife. He may not divorce her all his days. 20 But if the thing is true, that evidence of virginity was not found in the young woman, 21 then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done an outrageous thing in Israel by whoring in her father's house. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.


First the entire quote addresses the issue of a Man rejecting his wife. Husband could do so, but had to pay his wife's family for the rejection, UNLESS the reason for the rejection involved the marriage contract itself.

Before I do on as to the above, please understand the quote clearly involves marriages, when one of the assumptions is the women is a Virgin. The reason I bring this up, anyone could marry up to four times under Jewish law and thus the last three times such a woman would marry, the woman would NOT be a virgin and this entire rule would be irrelevant. This rule is clearly to address the issue of a break of Contract BY THE WOMAN"S FAMILY.

Thus if the Husband could prove to the elders of the community, that Woman's family was the one who broke the marriage contract NOT the Husband then and only then could he take the woman to her Father's house and be stoned. Given that Jewish law, like Sharia law, permits compromise (and encourages payment for contract violations) taking the woman to her Father's house was more to force the Father to pay up, then to stone the woman,

One last comment, In the Bible this clause only comes up once and that is in the New Testament where Joseph finds Mary with Child. BEFORE he had his vision from God that this is Jesus, the New Testament is clear, Joseph planned to take Mary out of town and divorce her quietly. Which was an option under Jewish law and appears to be the most common way of treating such problems. Now, in the New Testament the Holy Spirit appears to Joseph, and tells him this is God's work and he has to take care of Jesus and Mary.

Just pointing out the quote you are citing is part of a larger quote that puts that quote in context. It was NOT an absolute law, but one that ONLY applies in very narrow circumstances, and in most cases other solutions were preferred (and imposed on both sides by the Elders of the Community).

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2022&version=ESV

As to marriages limited to four, that comes up in the New Testament where Jesus is waiting for his followers to return to a well, and a woman comes to the well. This was about noon, and NO one moves around in Judea at noon, it is to hot, unless you wanted to avoid people, people who went to the well in the morning and evening when it was cool. Thus Scholars have long understood the reason the woman went to the well at noon was to avoid the other women of the town and avoid their gossip. Jesus ask the woman use of her bucket so he could have some water. She complies, and then Jesus ask her to come to hear him speak and bring her husband with her. She then says she has no husband. He then says, yes you do, the man you are living with, I know you have been married four times before and thus can not marry, but that does not mean you can not hear the word of God so bring your husband to my speech.

I bring this up for Jewish law is a factor in how Jesus lived and his actions in the Temple that lead to his crucifixion. The Writers of both the New Testament and Old Testaments also knew of these laws and assumed their readers also knew of those laws, thus they did NOT need to repeat them. This includes the requirement that the offender's family can REDEEM the offender by paying money to the victim or his family. That was an huge assumption during the time period the bible was written. In fact it appears to be a huge factor in Western law, until the Renaissance where it became disable to punish offenders as example to others in the community as oppose to making the victim's family whole (Nobles and the then new Upper Middle Class wanted to be able to kill peasants without the Peasants being able to get their friends to buy out the punishment. Such collections to aid a fellow peasants appears to have been quite common in the Middle ages, but comes under attack in the Renaissance and the Reformation.

Thespian2

(2,741 posts)
98. Thank you
Tue May 27, 2014, 04:11 PM
May 2014

Then God in the old testament condones stoning a woman to death. The reasons are interesting, but the woman would still be dead.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
103. I did point out the one case actually mentioned in the bible....
Tue May 27, 2014, 05:20 PM
May 2014

And according in legend Mary lived till she was 100 years of age.

Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

19 And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly.

20 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.


I point out what Joseph was PLANNING seems to have been what most people did in such situations, stoning for this crime was rare, if it ever occurred.

While Stoning was the preferred method of execution, it was something the victim's family had to INSIST on, even over the objections to the local elders (Who would put pressure on them and the offender's family to make a deal short of execution).

Also notice, this was an ADD ON to when a husband rejected his wife. If he rejected his wife, he had to pay her family AND if he accused her of having sex before marriage AND the elders found that she had NOT, then he stayed married to her, even while she lived in her father's house, i.e. he had to pay her family for her support.

The stoning appears to be an add on, in those circumstances when the Husband had just cause to reject his wife. First he had to prove it to the Villages elders, Second he had to take her to her father's house, so the Father had the opportunity to work out a deal. The Husband just could not reject her, except if he agreed to pay. If the Husband did not want to pay, he had to PROVE the woman was NOT a virgin.

Thus stoning was the preferred method of execution, but it appears to have been rare (if it ever occurred) in cases of wife not being a virgin. It was used against others, and seems to be well known to all, but the cases when a woman was stoned for NOT being a virgin upon marriage is unrecorded.
 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
130. Let me know when it's the law of the land
Wed May 28, 2014, 07:45 AM
May 2014

and then you'll have a point. Pointing holy books at each other is meaningless when only one is being used to form laws that allow parents to murder their children.

Thespian2

(2,741 posts)
135. Say it any way you want
Wed May 28, 2014, 09:42 AM
May 2014

The laws of moses in the first five books of the bible, command stoning as the only method for putting those who broke the law to death. Early jews and christians were a blood-thirsty lot...god commands the total destruction of any people occupying the promised land. Genocide was okay. Recall Og and his kingdom. The Pakistani laws allowing the honour killing by stoning a young woman to death are not far removed from the biblical law of moses, i.e...in ancient times, to stone people to death. The parallel exists, say what you will.

Vogon_Glory

(9,109 posts)
51. I Hope That The US ICE Remembers The Identities Of These Barbarians AND
Tue May 27, 2014, 11:45 AM
May 2014

I hope that the US ICE remembers the names and identities of these barbarians and NEVER, EVER grants them permission to enter the US.

I hope that the Canadian authorities do likewise.

 

Cal33

(7,018 posts)
53. As little as 3 centuries ago, Christian churches were torturing and burning to death at the stake
Tue May 27, 2014, 11:49 AM
May 2014

fellow Christians for having different opinions about certain beliefs. They were called heretics.

Gradually we grew out of this horrible practice, mainly because the people wanted and demanded
change. Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity. Will it take them just as long to outgrow
their cruel practices? Maybe, instead of criticizing them, we could try to do something positive
in helping them to quicken the pace of change.

Perhaps trying to change such matters through the auspices of the United Nations could bear
some fruit. If, after much research and study, the vast majority of the rest of the world would
together demand that such practices be stopped -- or else! These fanatics would have little choice
but acquiesce.

I do feel that these practices were in vogue for many thousands of years -- long before Islam
began -- such as the genital mutilation of women, as well as the killing of baby girls. Mohammed,
the founder of Islam, forbade the killing of baby girl babies. "Why not marry them off, instead?"
he asked. The killings stopped. Female circumcision has nothing to do with Islam either. It has
been practiced in a few areas for thousands of years, long before Islam was born.

If we put our hearts and minds to it, I believe that the United Nations could very well be successful
in changing these practices.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
126. I don't think the religion being younger is any consolation
Wed May 28, 2014, 06:05 AM
May 2014

It is the 21st century. They have access to the rest of the world's practices and opinions.

 

Cal33

(7,018 posts)
139. True. But fanatics are fanatics. They will not change. And we have quite a large number of our
Wed May 28, 2014, 12:19 PM
May 2014

own, who are doing their best to drag our nation backwards into the past from which we came.

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
55. These cultures seem to have a very different view of family then we do.
Tue May 27, 2014, 11:59 AM
May 2014

I could never imagine seeing my family member murdered and being okay with it, let alone participating. I often wonder where the love has gone in regions like this. They seem to lack compassion, empathy and love of others.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
57. Disgusting, barbaric people.
Tue May 27, 2014, 12:06 PM
May 2014

Note that I am not referring to the majority of Muslims, who undoubtedly would condemn this, but to the "many families who think that a woman marrying her own choice of man brings dishonor on the family" and that murder is an appropriate response.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
67. The major religions strive to legitimize the irrational and lionize factless "faith."
Tue May 27, 2014, 12:40 PM
May 2014

Baseless, unfounded myths are said to be on equal ground with or superior to science and reason, and this spawns all sorts of dangerous conditions -- often for women or gay people.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
71. If you stick to the Gospels you pretty much won't go wrong.
Tue May 27, 2014, 12:46 PM
May 2014

"Do unto others as you would have done unto you". "Blessed are the peacemakers". "Love your neighbor as yourself". Be a good Samaritan. No condemnations of homosexuality. All good stuff. If everyone lived by these tenets the world would certainly be a better place.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
86. This has NOTHING to do with Religion, Islam condemns such acts.
Tue May 27, 2014, 01:31 PM
May 2014

The problem is, in most of the world outside of the West (including Russia, Australia, New Zealand, North and South America), Japan and China (and concentrated in the Middle East, from Pakistan to North Africa) people tend to marry their cousin. It is presently illegal in China, but is believe to still be a common practice in China. Marrying Cousins is legal in most of the West, but do to culture it is rarely done (you do not keep something illegal if it is so rare that most people do not know it is illegal).

Given the above, Pakistan in one of those areas where marrying cousins is almost mandatory. Thus this woman's decision to marry someone else put her outside her cultural norms. Islam has had little affect on that norm. Pakistan has one of the highest rate of marring cousins in the world, over 70% admitted to such marriages:

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Cousin_Marriage_in_Islam




Now, Islam does not encourage marrying one;s cousin, nor does it discourage it. On the other hand it was the norm among Arabs at the time of Mohammad and seems to have spread with Islam, but independent of Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_in_the_Middle_East

The high rate of Cousin marriages in Pakistan is opposite the low rate of such marriages among Hindus in Northern and Western India (but Southern India has a high rate of Cousin marriages, but no where near the rate in Pakistan).

The Pakistan rate of cousin marriages is the highest in the world, exceeding by far the rate in the Persian Gulf and Saudi Arabia.

Just a comment, that this stoning appears to have little to do with Religion, but with what the family cultural norms are in Pakistan.

Please note, where Marrying one's cousin was illegal (such as in the Russian Empire and later the Soviet Union) the rate of such marriages dropped like a rock. When such marriages were made legal (Late Soviet Union for example) such marriages remain rare (see the Former Soviet Central Asiatic States, whose rates of such marriages is the same as Russia and most of the rest of the world).

WCLinolVir

(951 posts)
90. Normally I would agree that it is a question of social norms,
Tue May 27, 2014, 01:58 PM
May 2014

but Pakistan has adopted/was formed as an Islamist state.
I have not researched the rate of inter-marriage within the families in Pakistan, but Islamization has increased the rates of cousins marrying.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
93. From what I have read, Islamization has NOT increased the rate of such marriages
Tue May 27, 2014, 02:36 PM
May 2014

It was high at the time of Independence and remain high to this day. You do not get to a 70% marriage level except over several generations, the Persian Gulf States cousin marriage rate is NOT that high.

WCLinolVir

(951 posts)
82. Pakistan is 95-97% Muslim.
Tue May 27, 2014, 01:21 PM
May 2014

Supposedly Muslims commit 91 percent of honor killings worldwide.
Not to discount the women killed during the catholic grab for money and power, or any other religious abuses.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
85. Wouldn't it be nice if a respected local religious figure could reason with the mob,
Tue May 27, 2014, 01:29 PM
May 2014

and somehow persuade them that stoning people to death is not what Allah wants?

WCLinolVir

(951 posts)
88. Sure would. The lack of humanity is heart wrenching.
Tue May 27, 2014, 01:35 PM
May 2014

A beautiful soul bludgeoned to death by a group who fester in fear and rage.

hue

(4,949 posts)
99. "mob" or "group" meaning Her FAMILY!!!
Tue May 27, 2014, 04:17 PM
May 2014

Every member of the "group" was one of her family!!!

And Her father showed no remorse!

SunSeeker

(51,516 posts)
96. The horror this poor woman must have experienced, watching her dad and brothers stoning her.
Tue May 27, 2014, 03:51 PM
May 2014

As a parent, I cannot imagine hurting let alone killing one's own child. The savagery of this "family" is truly sickening.

But this was right in front of a courthouse. Where was the police? All courthouses have security at the entrances. Where the fuck were they? Seems like the whole country is on this. I hope some day Malala goes back to lead her country out of this horrific, misogynistic savagery.

 

zonkers

(5,865 posts)
97. That is messed up. How do you kill your daughter(or sister) and go on with your life?
Tue May 27, 2014, 04:06 PM
May 2014

That is messed up.

tclambert

(11,084 posts)
106. She brought dishonor to the family? But killing your own daughter doesn't?
Tue May 27, 2014, 06:06 PM
May 2014

Somebody needs to double-check their moral calculus. They may have misplaced a decimal point.

LeftishBrit

(41,203 posts)
107. Just awful
Tue May 27, 2014, 06:24 PM
May 2014

'Honour' killings and all such brutality need to stop.

People might consider supporting the following organizations:


www.womankind.org.uk

www.equalitynow.org

 

antiGOPin294

(53 posts)
117. Stuff like this truly makes my blood turn cold. How sickening.
Wed May 28, 2014, 12:05 AM
May 2014

Poor woman. Hopefully that family will be punished for this, though I'm not holding my breath.

Beacool

(30,247 posts)
137. The only dishonor was committed by the family.
Wed May 28, 2014, 11:33 AM
May 2014

What is honorable about killing a pregnant young woman whose only sin was to marry a man without her father's approval. Why should a 25 year old woman even need her father's approval to marry anyone she chooses?

I'm soooo sick of these type of stories. Ditto for the woman in Sudan who married a Christian and converted. Who gives these bastards the right to kill her????

When are women going to rise and say ENOUGH!!!!!!! A pair of testicles and a penis should not be the criteria used to control women's lives.

BTW, this happened on the steps on a court house. Why didn't anyone help the poor woman?




 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
138. As usual, selfishness is the cause of most of the evil in this world
Wed May 28, 2014, 11:54 AM
May 2014

This is an extreme example. The selfish family wanted the woman to live as they wanted.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
142. UPDATE: Parveen was pregnant and police just stood by while she was murdered
Thu May 29, 2014, 07:32 AM
May 2014

BBC News
29 May 2014
Pakistan PM Nawaz Sharif orders action on stoning

Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif has described the stoning to death of a woman by her family in front of a Lahore court as "totally unacceptable".

He ordered the chief minister of Punjab province to take "immediate action" and submit a report by Thursday evening.

Farzana Parveen, who was three months pregnant, was pelted with bricks and bludgeoned by relatives furious because she married against their wishes.

Her husband told the BBC that police simply stood by during the attack....

MORE at http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-27622232

Freakin' barbarians.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
143. The statistics
Thu May 29, 2014, 07:47 AM
May 2014

Honour killings in Pakistan

Honour killing protest
• In 2013, 869 women murdered in so called "honour killings"

• Campaigners say real number is likely to be much higher

• Of these, 359 were so called "Karo Kari" cases, whereby family members consider themselves authorised to kill offending relatives to restore honour

• Rights groups say conviction rate in cases of sexual and other violence against women is "critically low"

Source: Human Rights Commission of Pakistan annual report 2013

muriel_volestrangler

(101,271 posts)
146. Pakistani man protesting 'honour killing' admits strangling first wife
Thu May 29, 2014, 02:42 PM
May 2014
Muhummad Iqbal, who is demanding justice after his pregnant second wife was killed by her family, admits his own crime

A Pakistani man demanding justice after his pregnant wife was murdered outside Lahore's high court this week admitted on Thursday to strangling his first wife, in an admission that is likely to focus even more attention on the prevalence of so-called "honour" killings in the country.

Muhummad Iqbal, the 45-year-old husband of Farzana Parveen, who was beaten to death by 20 male relatives on Tuesday, said he strangled his first wife in order to marry Parveen.

He avoided a prison sentence after his family used Islamic provisions of Pakistan's legal system to forgive him, precisely those he has insisted should not be available to his wife's killers.
...
Iqbal has also claimed that Parveen's family killed another one of their daughters some years ago. Speaking to a researcher from the Aurat Foundation, a women's rights organisation, he claimed that Parveen's father, Muhammad Azeem, had poisoned the other woman after falling out with her husband-in-law.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/29/pakistan-man-protesting-honour-killing-admits-strangling-first-wife


The cesspool is deeper than we can possibly imagine.
Latest Discussions»Latest Breaking News»Pakistan woman stoned to ...