Russia and Ukraine 'agree steps' towards new truce

[muriel_volestrangler]

Source: BBC

The foreign ministers of Russia, Ukraine, Germany and France say they have agreed on steps aimed at ending hostilities in eastern Ukraine.

Germany's Walter Steinmeier said they agreed in talks in Berlin on a "package of measures" that paves the way for a bilateral ceasefire.
...
Following talks in the German capital on Wednesday, the foreign ministers said they had agreed to hold three-way talks that includes the pro-Russian rebels "no later than 5 July".

"We propose to achieve this through a meeting soon of the Contact Group, which - we hope - will hold a meeting in coming days and agree on the conditions for truce that would satisfy all sides," Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov told reporters after talks concluded.

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28139139

[another_liberal]

1. Have Kiev's ultra-nationalist armed volunteer battalions agreed too?

Unless those right winger militias are on board, this truce won't work any better than the last two did. The shelling and killing will continue until warmongers from Svoboda and Right Sector are forced to stop.

[The Magistrate]

2. The Truce Will Hold, Sir

When Putin seals his borders against the transit of arms and men, calls back his operatives in leading roles in the secessionist political and military leadership, and makes absolutely clear he has no ambition to either annex or dismember Ukraine, and makes it absolutely clear those he has led to expect otherwise are on their own from here on out.

[another_liberal]

22. The truce has to actually begin first . . .

Then we will see if it "holds."

[The Magistrate]

35. After Your Mash Note Here, Sir, You Have Relieved Any Of Any Obligation To Take You Seriously

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5169424

"Putin is rough, tough, and nobody's sweet-heart...." suggests you might better focus your energies on securing a gig doing cover blurbs for 'TwiLight Romance' or some other publisher of bodice-rippers.

It calls to mind comments by Orwell on left intellectuals in his day, in particular comments contained in 'Notes on Nationalism':

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0300011h.html#part30

"But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists whose real though unadmitted motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration of totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writings of younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States. Moreover they do not as a rule condemn violence as such, but only violence used in defence of western countries."

"All in all it is difficult not to feel that pacifism, as it appears among a section of the intelligentsia, is secretly inspired by an admiration for power and successful cruelty."

The maudlin hero-worship of your 'Putin is rough, tough, and nobody's sweet-heart...' fits perfectly into the mental attitude he describes.

[another_liberal]

43. Now you've really hurt my feelings, . . . sniff!

The great and powerful "Magistrate" has dissed me! How will I manage to carry on with my shattered life?

BTW: Since you seem determined to continue with these pointless personal attacks, I'd appreciate a clarification: Please, just what the hell is a "Mash note" anyhow?

[delrem]

3. This is a 100% PNAC operation.

Like all PNAC operations, the astroturfers will be pushing out "grassroots" hate toward... Hussein, Ghaddafi, Assad,.... Maliki,...., in this case Putin. If you don't agree with their PNAC warmongering, then (in this case) you're portrayed as being as bad as (in this case) Putin. But it's a Dem administration now so PNAC has to "lead from behind", and it has to be denied.

PNAC operations might be shallow, they might be totally false - but they've been proven to work over and over on USians, who are easily distracted.

What can't be denied is this:
Secretary Kerry Hosts PNAC's Robert Kagan at Wife Vicki Nuland's Swearing in Ceremony

What can't be denied is the direct line of succession, leading to these moments with ISIS in Syria/Iraq/... ("Friends of Syria", no less) and with the coup leading to "democratic elections" between select fascists in the Ukraine.

http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2014/03/cheney-appointee-victoria-nulands-neocon-ukrainian-adventures

[karynnj]

5. So - should Kerry have told her her husband could not come to the swearing in?

She is CAREER State Department - not a political appointee. Not to mention, Putin has more fascists in his government than Ukraine has in its government.

[delrem]

6. Putting my best face on it: you miss the point.

[karynnj]

8. No, I reject the point

In case you missed it, Obama and Kerry are working to avoid the war that PNAC wants in Iran. In Syria, Obama turned down Petraeous and Clinton when they wanted to do more in Syria. They threatened limited air strikes when Obama's red line of chemical weapons was stepped over --- and they quickly worked on a diplomatic solution (removing all the chemical weapons).

As to Ukraine, that was not in PNAC - so, I have no idea why you think it has anything to do with that. Not to mention, Obama and Kerry worked to preserve Ukriane's ability to have an election of the President and to keep Russia from even worse aggression through threats of sanctions -- not war.

[delrem]

12. That was as coherent as "The Magistrate"'s reply.

You haven't gone for the underbelly, like "The Magistrate" has. Good on ya.

[karynnj]

25. If it is true that I am as coherent as the magistrate, I feel I have done well

The world is a complicated place, and seeing everyone as heroes or villains works better in comic books than real life.

[The Magistrate]

45. Thank You, Ma'am

You are quite right about there being a comic book air to some of the commentary here on this subject.

[The Magistrate]

10. You Have To Have A Point For Anyone To Miss It, Sir

You fail to provide the necessaries....

[Tommy_Carcetti]

7. I see the Catherina Crowd is out in force again. nt

[dipsydoodle]

49. Well we do form a majority here

so that's hardly surprising.

[The Magistrate]

50. I Strongly Doubt That, Sir

Perhaps a half a dozen who make strenuous efforts on the particular subject appear consistently. The number in consistent comment on the other side from you is about the same, but on that side there are more people who come in occasionally, but do not persist. There is no reason whatever to presume the view that what occurred in Ukraine was a neo-Nazi coup driven the United States, and that what is occurring is a massacre of innocents in the east, and that the role of Russia in these events is that of defender of left principles and savior of eastern Ukraine and righteous foe of the demons directing the U.S. and E.U. predominates among the full membership of this forum. The fact is not very many people care much about this, and care less about it as time goes on, and more dramatic and dangerous events, such as the drive of I.S.I.L. in the Near East, and domestic political developments such as the recent High Court ruling, come to the fore.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

69. I concur with The Magistrate's assessment.

Most DUers don't have much of an opinion on the situation one way or the other.

The rest?

Most of them either have some sort of familial relation to the area (I'll admit in being in this camp), or they are of the conspiratorial mindset and with all the rumors and whispers of CIA and western involvement, they enjoy churning up their theories and suspicions, even without much factual corroboration.

Then you have some here who are genuinely interested in foreign affairs and situations beyond the borders of the US. And it is indeed an interesting--albeit perilous--situation to analyze.

And then you might have a very small handful of persons who are subscribers to Marxist economic theory but are not sophisticated enough to understand that Soviet nostaligia and the Soviet Union in general had very little to do with actual Marxism. And yet they'll weigh in out of some twisted sense of nostalgia of something that ought never to be nostaligized.

[The Magistrate]

9. Jesus Sweet Christ, Man: You are linking to a Wayne Madsen Article?

The man who claimed the U.S. armed forces executed thousands of New Orleans residents during Hurricane Katrina, and denounced DU specifically as a tool of the Bush administration's cover-up?

You would get more sensible commentary from David Ickes....

[delrem]

11. More ad hominem: this time against Thom Hartman,

in an attempt to what? To deny? To obscure? The fact that Victoria Nuland exists.

[The Magistrate]

14. Ad Hominem, Sir, Is Not Just A Ritual Chant

It means to attempt to discredit what someone says by pointing to something about them with no particular relation to the point.

It would be an ad hominem if I were to say of someone that, because he was an adulterer, his comments on whether Yogi Berra was the greatest catcher in baseball history could not be taken seriously.

It is not an ad hominem to point out that someone has made predictions which proved false, or described as true events which did not take place, and so maintain that in view of this record of poor judgement or even outright delusion, that there is no particular reason to take a fresh statement by that person seriously as an accurate description or a sound weighing of causes and outcomes. In the case of Madsen, he has been so notorious for so long as a fringe nut-case that one simply points to highlights nearest to home as a sort of public service: back when we had moderators, links to his site were 'remove on sight' items, along with Tom Flocco and Alex Jones and several others.

Nor does appeal to authority carry any particular weight with me, particularly when the authority is a fellow with a radio show and a slot on Russia Times. I am unconcerned with what Mr. Hartmann thinks; there is nothing particularly wise or insightful or knowledgeable about his commentaries, and there gist can be had from many others.

[delrem]

15. That's an incredible... word salid... The Magistrate, Sir.

[The Magistrate]

16. Again, Sir, 'Word Salad' Is Not Just A Ritual Chant

It has an agreed upon meaning, namely, a string of words which are almost random, and convey a sense of confusion or continual false start, and so cannot yield any intelligible meaning to even an attentive listener.

It does not mean, as you seem to imagine, comments which convey with some precision something you do not want to hear, or cannot bring yourself to recognize as true. So you take refuge in a pretense of inability to comprehend plain English and basic concepts, in hopes of presenting yourself as the sympathetic victim of some hifallutin intellectualizing egg-head....

[delrem]

17. Congratulations on completing the sequence, The Magistrate, Sir. nt

[Tommy_Carcetti]

21. "Word Salad" would be throwing in the words...

"coup", "Victoria Nuland", "neo-Nazis", "fascists", etc., and then expecting it to be a coherent narrative of what actually happened in Ukraine.

[delrem]

28. PNACers are neo-nazis.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

30. Okay then.

Do you have anything of substance to say as it relates to Ukraine?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

26. The obsession about Victoria Nuland is just so bizarre.

The way some of the pro-Russian folk talk about it, you'd think that she herself single handedly parachuted into Kiev the night of February 21st and stuck a gun to Yanukovych's head and forced him to leave.

They have almost as strong an irrational obsession about U.S. State Department spokesperson Jen Psaki. You go onto some of their blogs and Twitter feeds and you'll hear some of the most ugliest epithets thrown towards her. So much energy focused on such an obscure, low level individual that barely anyone else knows about.

It's just insane, delusional behavior.

[delrem]

27. PNAC isn't some"delusion".

You and The Magistrate support PNAC, pure and simple.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

29. PNAC is real. Their involvement in Ukraine isn't.

But thanks for the general bald assertion of my allegiances.

[delrem]

31. Of course Victoria Nuland is "involved in the Ukraine".

The denial that you guys put up is absurd.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

34. Okay, several things.

First, "the Ukraine" is nonstandard. If you want to fancy yourself an expert on the situation, just the proper "Ukraine" will suffice.

Secondly, just because she passed out cookies (or whatever it was) on Maidan once and had an excitable phone call doesn't mean she's somehow responsible for removing Victor Yanukovych from power.

In over four months now, I've yet to hear a coherent narrative about how the supposed "western sponsored coup" in Ukraine took place. If you believe you actually have one, the floor is all yours.

[The Magistrate]

36. Nor Will You Ever Hear Such A Coherent Narrative As You Request, Sir

It is all a mess of 'has ties to' and 'is linked with' and 'at the same time as': the usual insinuendoes of conspiracy enthusiasts from Alex Jones on down to the humblest key-board pecker. In their closed in and self-referential world, such statements are seen as evidence, even proof, of co-ordination and direction from a center. No court would consider them evidence in a case, no peer-review process of a historian's paper would consider them facts establishing an account of how a thing took place.

[delrem]

38. Now I'm supposed to educate someone who denies the efficacy of PNAC.

Ridiculous.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

39. Well I tried to give you a chance.

So in other words, you have nothing?

[delrem]

40. You feign to not understand the significance of even your own words.

"just because she passed out cookies (or whatever it was) on Maidan once and had an excitable phone call ...."

Indeed!
One thing for certain, it isn't me who's pimping for Dick Cheney's protege.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

41. So go ahead.

Tell me how you think the "coup" went down. Who forcibly removed Yanukovych from power, and how exactly did they do it?

I'm curious as to what you will say.

[The Magistrate]

42. You Fail To Demonstrate Any Significance Whatever Is Contained In Your Words, Sir

You fall so far short of having demonstrated any connection between Ms. Nuland and the ouster of the previous regime in Ukraine, or for that matter between her and the composition of the interim government which succeeded it.

A statement of preference by a representative of a foreign government, even a very powerful foreign government, does not come near to establishing that that expressed preference was imposed, or even procured, by that foreign power.

[Adrahil]

78. So nuthin'. Gotcha. NT

[delrem]

79. Just disgust for those who support and defend PNAC on DU. nt

[another_liberal]

24. A New Century of American Wars, maybe . . .

Last edited Thu Jul 3, 2014, 03:52 PM - Edit history (2)

These American "Exceptionalists" are so totally short-sighted. None of them every studied World history. They may have taken the courses (some of them) but they learned none of the real lessons.

It's simply disgraceful.

[delrem]

32. They do the same "attack the messenger" routine in every case.

They now do it by rote: it allows them to live in complete denial.

[Jefferson23]

55. Thom Hartman is well intentioned yet if he is supportive of the assertion a coup

was orchestrated by the US..I believe he would be misleading you.

Unless I misunderstood your position?

[delrem]

56. Here you go, Jefferson23: straight from Victoria Nuland's mouth

to your ears.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/american-conquest-by-subversion-victoria-nulands-admits-washington-has-spent-5-billion-to-subvert-ukraine/5367782

But I'll bet you can't hear it. I'll bet you still deny it.

I understand, Jefferson23, that Victoria and Bob no longer self-identify as neo-cons (and like Bill Kristol don't like the leading "neo-" in any event) -- they identify as bipartisan dem's promoting what they now like to name as "the Liberal Interventionist". This being, of course, PNAC rebranded. They both love them some HRC.

I see denial denial denial to be the new mantra of the third-way, denial past the point of absurdity.

[The Magistrate]

58. This Is Ancient News, Sir, And Does Not Come Near Establishing Your Claims

That the United States has given over the course of twenty odd years a total of five billions in various aids to Ukraine does not establish existence of a "US project to tear Ukraine away from its historic relationship with Russia and into the US sphere of interest', nor is their any factual basis for the claim the money was spent to “Subvert Ukraine”. The entire intro, from its flaming head-line "American Conquest by Subversion: Victoria Nuland’s Admits Washington Has Spent $5 Billion to 'Subvert Ukraine'" to its closing "tear Ukraine away from its historic relationship with Russia" is mere propaganda for the current efforts of the Russian government. The actual historical relation between Ukraine and Russia is that of an imperial possession, a colony, exploited for its agriculture and mineral resources, and it is that relation, sundered with the collapse of the Soviet Union, that Putin today seeks to restore.

[delrem]

59. You liked that Nuland-Kagan speech, didn't you Sir. Right down your alley.

[Jefferson23]

70. I heard it, delrem and I think some very well intentioned people are being mislead..as

I said earlier.

This is just conspiracy theory stuff. If you watch the video she doesn't say "subvert" she says the $5 billion is for pro-democracy stuff. It's totally true that "pro-democracy" funding from the US usually means something terrible in Latin America, Southeast Asia, etc., but it's just not relevant for Ukraine. These people (and Democracy Now makes the same mistake) just see US influence abroad and call it subversion even though they have no idea of the subject that they're talking about. Of course the US wants Ukraine to be a democracy but it doesn't use the same horrible tactics there like it does in Latin America. One article said "the US project to tear Ukraine away from its historic relationship with Russia and into the US sphere of interest (via “Europe”)" as if Ukraine has not been trying to do that itself. Plus the article basically takes the Russian point of view that Ukraine should continue it's historic relationship with Russia because...it's historic? What does that matter if Ukrainians are arguing they don't want it? That's why these people think that the US isn't going by what Ukrainian people want, but by what Victoria Nuland says she wants. It just feeds into their narrative that 100% of US foreign policy is bad.

[delrem]

71. That was the voice of PNAC talking, Jefferson23.

Is your wish to sugarcoat it, or disappear it, just because PNAC is now Obama's voice? Kerry's voice? (Kerry proudly, loudly, proclaimed that he promoted her)

Sugarcoating PNAC or pretending it doesn't exist, doesn't change the fact that PNAC exists, Nuland and Kagan are top tier PNACers, and that PNAC is a *very* core voice of the neo-con pro-war movement. For example, it's just plain true that Victoria Nuland worked directly under Dick Cheney before making the switch to Obama's admin. It's just plain true that her husband co-founded PNAC with Bill Kristol. It's just plain true that neither she, her husband, or Bill Kristol, or *any of them* have changed their minds, attitudes, philosophy, point of view, in any way. In fact, all evidence shows they've become totally emboldened - knowing that whatever they do, when in power, will be above and beyond the reach of any law.

The video I posted demonstrates that Victoria Nuland, the speaker, has been very active in pre/post coup activities. It demonstrates that she's proud of the fact. It demonstrates how she has made it very clear, to *all*, that she (as voice for Obama/Kerry) has/had one and only one objective in this operation: to sever Ukraine from Russia.

PNAC used inflamation of sectarian divisions as a tool in Ukraine, just as it did/does in the ME, and just as it did/does in Latin America. That's fact. I agree with you that it's true that ""pro-democracy" funding from the US usually means something terrible in Latin America, Southeast Asia, etc.", but you give NO argument to convince me that PNAC sings a different tune in Ukraine, in other areas of the world. What gives you the idea that it does? It's a crazy idea.

You say: "Of course the US wants Ukraine to be a democracy". What gives you that idea? What evidence do you have - what *precedents* do you have? Do you really believe that the impetus for US foreign policy is truth, freedom, democracy? There's no evidence for that whatsoever.

[Jefferson23]

72. Because essentially, you have no evidence otherwise. My understanding of the situation

has nothing to do with, as you say.."because it's now Obama". It does not work that way
for me.

It seems to me you have a heavy reliance on Nuland and her husbands reputations, but
that does not give merit to this situation in the way you seem to think. I'm not sure
you're considering what I said earlier:

What does that matter if Ukrainians are arguing they don't want it? That's why these people think that the US isn't going by what Ukrainian people want, but by what Victoria Nuland says she wants. It just feeds into their narrative that 100% of US foreign policy is bad.

I believe we are deadlocked, delrem.

[delrem]

73. I think we're deadlocked because you're stuck on PNAC.

You want, very desperately, to believe in a contradiction.

You don't see that PNAC caused (eta 1) another war. You want to deny something that's dead obvious.

I find that regretful, because I do think you've been discussing this honestly with me.

eta 1: I hope nobody assumes that just because I use the term 'caused', I mean an only cause. PNAC is never the *only* cause in the empire of chaos that it helps engender.

[Jefferson23]

74. I have been misled before, have read trusted sources before and those sources turned out to

be wrong/unreliable..I imagine that has happened to many who try and understand what
has occurred in a complex world.

In this case, there is no evidence to believe the people who, like Stephen Cohen and Thom
Hartman, are well intentioned but they do not know what they're talking about.

For example, Cohen back in Feb made the statement: I wanted to hear if Cohen's analysis of the escalating conflict in Ukraine overlapped at all with my understanding of it. I wasn't expecting to hear him accuse the Obama Administration of "plotting a coup d'etat against the elected president of Ukraine."

It comes at the 16 minute mark in the video below.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/02/20/1279140/-Stephen-Cohen-accuses-Obama-Administration-of-Coup-Attempt-in-Ukraine#


But now he seems to me to be back peddling, because he likely realizes that this whole campaign of his is discrediting him to all of American academia and policy world. He really has no idea what he's talking about.

snip***We may honorably disagree about the causes and resolution of the Ukrainian crisis, the worst US-Russian confrontation in decades, but not about deeds that are rising to the level of war crimes, if they have not already done so.

http://www.thenation.com/article/180466/silence-american-hawks-about-kievs-atrocities#

And yes, I have been honest with you and accept that you have done the same with me, we will need to agree
to disagree. I'll leave it there.

[delrem]

75. I doubt that PNAC would be so readily dismissed if the Republicans were in power.

Not by anyone on DU, at any rate.

I doubt that you lightly dismissed PNAC when Victoria Nuland was policy advisor to Dick Cheney. From reading your posts here and elsewhere I'm fairly certain that you (if you were aware of it) would see that as being significant. Not just immediately significant for what was going down at that exact time, but for what it portended for the future. For what kind of fucking *brains* were in on the high-level decisions. Am I wrong?

I never said that I believed to the letter in the veridical truth of every word Thom Hartman ever said.

I never pretended that I had some absolute proof of anything. That would be a ridiculous claim.
I did say that PNAC was involved at the highest levels of the US admin. Because it is.
I did say (or rather, John Kerry proudly said) that a very core/central voice of PNAC was promoted to the position of Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs at the United States Department of State, because the vid I linked to demonstrated exactly that.

Scroll up and you'll see where the riposts of some DUers suggest that to be meaningless -- insignificant.

I have a problem with people who hold me to every exact letter, however hairsplitting (in this case - the requirement of absolute proof) of statements that I didn't make, or to every letter or associated letter in large tracts that I linked to, when that tactic is used to avoid the issue (in this case, the central role of PNAC).

Now, for comparison read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d'%C3%A9tat

I am NOT claiming an identity of circumstance, or anything even close.
I'm asking you to read it, and tell me when a person is allowed to say "Kissinger and his goons fucking well did it" even without absolute proof. At what point is a person allowed to claim that the US was pushing an agenda, using every means at its disposal, most of it covert?

[Jefferson23]

76. I feel any further contribution to this conversation would be to repeat myself.

In the end, over time, you'll see for yourself..possibly.

[delrem]

77. How many years of PNAC is required to see their good "Dem" side, in your opinion? nt.

[ballyhoo]

4. This just gives the two sides time to

contemplate the next move.

[delrem]

13. I don't like these "bipartisan" PNAC orchestrations.

Color me pissed.

[ballyhoo]

18. Me neither. But we know who is doing it and in the end

it will not work. The battle will rage on until the Candy Man is deposed as being useless and then the people will make their move. Always happens. Gonna happen here too. Try not to get too excited here, delrem. You already know what the US is doing to stir the pot in Ukraine--same cast of of agent provocateurs. Add this to what they are doing now in Iraq. And what they did in Libya. You don't even have to include the rest of the rogue fascist moves. A silent coup was done in the US over the last 10-15 years. The fascists won. Time to start hitting the streets--or we'll be living in them.

[delrem]

19. "Try not to get too excited here, delrem."

I've been "political" 100% of my life, after approx. 16.
Now I'm going on 64.

I think the silent coup happened earlier than you say.

[ballyhoo]

20. Probably so. I have not been political as long

as you. Anyway, be careful here with all the DINO's running wild.

[delrem]

33. Yeah, thanks for the heads up. They play a crooked game.

[another_liberal]

23. New pro-war demonstrations are taking place in central Kiev . . .

Armed members of the Right Sector and Svoboda volunteer units of Ukraine's military are demanding no ceasefire with the separatists. They staged a similar demonstration right in front of Poroshenko's office on Sunday, and he caved to their demands. I can't wait to see what he does this time?

See the entry for "07:24 GMT" at: http://rt.com/news/eastern-ukraine-army-operation-680/

[ballyhoo]

37. Poroshenko is getting desperate. The walls are closing in

and he has no friends except western neoncons. And we know how upstanding these people are...

[another_liberal]

44. Poroshenko and his fellow Ukrainian Oligarchs armed the right wing militias . . .

Now they have to live with the extremely violent, ultra-nationalistic monster they created. If Poroshenko tries to enforce another truce, he may very well find himself following Yanukovich hurriedly into exile.

[karynnj]

46. So, why does a Jewish professor, working in Moscow and Kiev, does not see the fascism you do?

The following article is from the Forward and he gives his view of Kiev and Moscow.

http://forward.com/articles/200894/kiev-is-full-of-hope-yes-even-for-jews/

For people who do not know, the Foward is a Jewish liberal, social democrat leaning paper that once was a socialist paper.

[delrem]

47. Ukraine isn't about "jews", for god's sake!

[The Magistrate]

48. When One Whimpers About 'Neo-Nazis In Charge In Kiev', Sir, One Makes the Jewish View Significant

Claiming your opponents are Nazis opens all kinds of doors....

[delrem]

52. Victoria Nuland opened those doors, sir -- regardless of your strident denials. nt

[The Magistrate]

53. Again With the Ritual Chants, Sir

They carry no weight outside the chapel wherein you worship.

[delrem]

54. More word salid, Sir -- meaningless filler for your strident denial. nt

[The Magistrate]

57. You Know, Sir, This Is Like Playing Mad-Libs With Someone Who Only Knows Three Or Four Words

You cycle between a few rudimentary lines, a couple of which are claims of fact without any evidence in support, a couple of which are low-caliber gamesmanship wheezes of the most hackneyed sort, and occasionally make a claim of long and deep involvement with political affairs. Without side-bets on which of the stock responses you are going to employ next, there is really not too much point....

[delrem]

60. You specialize in ad hominem and word salad, Sir.

You're going on ignore. Along with another PNACer.

[The Magistrate]

61. Honestly, Sir?

[karynnj]

51. My point is that no people would be more sensitive to neo Nazis or fascists than Jews

= especially, as in this case, one who is publicly and professionally identified as Jewish.

Not to mention, it is clear that you did not even scan the article. Here is a man who has worked in both Moscow and Kiev in the past few months. Note his comments near the end on Lviv, which had been a hot spot of nationalism in the past --- yet changed to give very few votes to the RW parties.

Is your problem that it is not from RT? The Forward is a very credible source.

[delrem]

62. So far as I can tell, the Ukraine "problems" have nothing to do with Jews.

It has everything to do with Ukrainians.
A cursory look at the map will show that Ukraine is divided, much the same as Canada is divided between large linguistic/cultural groups.

Canada is holding together, so far - although I've had DUers taunt me with their antagonism to Canadian multiculturalism, saying that they hope Canada will split (really), just because they are in favor of sectarian splits elsewhere, in Iraq, etc., whereas I say North Americans ought not interfere, trying to force or support sectarian wars.

I do NOT want to see Ukraine immolate itself in service to PNAC.
I know what PNAC is, and what Victoria Nuland and Robert Kagan stand for.
I will NOT stop speaking my opinion.

eta: this image



wasn't convincing.

[karynnj]

63. In addition to being Jewish, this is a man who has been in both Ukraine and Russia

Your entire POV takes a conversation about who leaders in Ukraine and turns it into the US causing all the protests and the President leaving.

You can and do give your opinion, but others- including me - have the same right as you to give our opinion. Here, you are ignoring the ENTIRE content of a rather broad, well written article. That the article suggests that RT's descriptions of Ukraine are not what he sees. I think it important to put this account out there from a source I trust far more than the Russian government.

[delrem]

64. Yes. I'm against censorship too.

Nowhere do I say that the US causes "all the protests".
That would be ridiculous.
I'm pointing out the existence of Victoria Nuland and Robert Kagan.
Nuland, proudly and with vehemence *promoted* by SoS John Kerry, at the behest of President Obama.
Exactly as happened in the video that you and "The Magistrate" dismiss as being ... what? non-existent?

I say that the PNAC connection to US foreign policy with respect to Ukraine is significant.
I say that US foreign policy in NATO countries is significant.

You and "The Magistrate" don't.

[karynnj]

65. Neither of us said the video was "non existent"

It is Nuland being sworn in -- and yes, as for most people, her husband came.
The PNAC plan did not include Ukraine.

[delrem]

66. I see. You understand the PNAC plan.

Now I understand you.

[karynnj]

67. Be condescending if you like - frankly I'm not impressed with your analysis either nt

[delrem]

68. That wasn't condescending.

I'm taking you as you are.
Exactly according as you say.