Virginia campus removes Confederate flags

[Judi Lynn]

Last edited Wed Jul 9, 2014, 12:39 AM - Edit history (1)

Source: The Roanoke Times

Virginia campus removes Confederate flags
| July 8, 2014 | Updated: July 8, 2014 6:40pm

LEXINGTON, Va. (AP) — Washington and Lee University says it is removing Confederate battle flags from its campus.

The move was announced in a lengthy email from university president Kenneth Rusio to faculty and students on Tuesday.

This spring, a group of law students demanded the school banish the flag from campus and repudiate one of its namesakes, Gen. Robert E. Lee. The group at the private liberal arts college found the flag troublesome in part because they had to pledge to an honor code in its prescence at the Lee Chapel.

The Roanoke Times reports (http://bit.ly/1kAR38d) that while the flags will be removed, the school expects to display original flags from a Civil War museum on a rotating basis.

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Read more: http://www.chron.com/news/us/article/Virginia-campus-removes-Confederate-flags-5607467.php

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[center][/center]

[Demeter]

1. Gee! Maybe this Civil War will FINALLY End

with the Millennial generation.

That would be a good thing. A very good thing for the nation.

[joe_stampingbull]

2. way past due

The Slaveholders' rebellion should not be glorified.

[gussmith]

3. Whoop De Do

About time. Any remnant of the worst civil strife in our countries history is unconscionable. To show such flag display is the equivalent of celebrating the symbol of 1940's tyranny.

[bluestateguy]

4. Gee in 2014

The right thing to do yes, but it's a little late for a pat on the back.

[Submariner]

5. The confederate battle flag is the flag of traitors

and should never be displayed except in a museum and in history book discussions.

It's about time this is done....way overdue.

[kestrel91316]

10. [phone]

[ProgressiveJarhead]

6. I Love The Confederate Flag

The white flag of surrender is my favorite.

[Archae]

7. The South won the propaganda war.

"Gone With The Wind," "Birth Of A Nation," "Outlaw Josey Wales," all these movies and many books paint the South as the "victim" of the North, and all their leaders as noble and great men.

[Marthe48]

9. Villians in old tv shows and movies

often had Southern accents. When I watched westerns when I was a kid, I knew the guy with the drawl was up to no good. And the New England accent was a good guy. Foreign accents could be good or bad, and sometimes both. The accents slowly changed over the years and now a lot of the good guys have drawls and the bad guys other accents. Funny how that goes....

I'm tickled that the flags are coming down.

[tabasco]

8. General Lee got his butt kicked pretty severely here in West Virginia

Never came back. LOL.

[DemoTex]

13. And there was the 40 minutes in Miller's Cornfield at Antietam (Sharpsburg, Md)

Lee didn't fare too well there, either.

[Tetris_Iguana]

11. I find the South's fascination

with the Confederacy odd and treasonous, but understandable.

That's a lot coming from a damned Yankee living in the south.

[defacto7]

12. Long overdue.

History is good. Living in the past is not.

[a la izquierda]

14. Only 150 years too late...

As someone who grew up in the northeast, I'll never understand the displaying of these flags. I see them all over the place (I live in WV now).
Come to think of it, I even saw one being displayed the other day on TV by someone at the Tour de France.

[marions ghost]

19. Don't you know the Confederate flag has been hijacked

Last edited Wed Jul 9, 2014, 06:33 PM - Edit history (1)

to symbolize something other than merely "The South"?

It's now become the white racist right wing fight flag (anywhere). It is now an extremely inflammatory, hurtful symbol and should not be displayed with other flags in any context.

This is why the University is removing from flagpoles what they always saw as a historical flag. This is not a university of the stupid, whatever else you may think of it. Only a couple of decades ago, the flag did not have the same meaning.

As for the name Washington and Lee--it's historical, hurts nobody these days, and is therefore OK.

[a la izquierda]

22. Um yeah, I know what it means. I'm an actual historian.

I also know the school's qualities. So spare me the lecture about how the flag meant something else.

[marions ghost]

28. Ha ha

you don't want to discuss anything--because .................

....YOU know everything.

Some historian. Historians will debate these things.

I never said the flag meant "something else" -- what I said was that the use of the flag as a historical symbol of the old South did not at one time carry the current right wing extremist message that it does today.

I also said it doesn't belong to be ceremonially flown anywhere.

I'm sure Washington and Lee is not a bastion of liberalism. I don't diss them one way or the other. I am talking about how the flag has been hijacked from a historical thing only flown in conservative Southern places to the symbol of extremism that it is today.

Knowing a bit about the history of the South myself.

[kwassa]

23. Your timeline is a little off.

The revival of the flag's use began around 1938, Coski argues. The movie Gone With the Wind helped spur the battle flag's growing popularity; not without irony, Hollywood played an important role in white southerners' embrace of what became an important symbol of their identity. College students, led by the Kappa Alpha Order, also began to fly the flag in the late Thirties, as did some American soldiers during World War II and the Korean conflict. But, as Coski shows conclusively, the flag's expanded role in southern culture fully emerged in 1948 during the Dixiecrat's third party revolt against President Harry S. Truman. Southern Democrats, championing states' rights and fighting any retreat from rigid segregation, made the Confederate flag an unofficial emblem of their revolt. Not long after, the flag was utilized by the Ku Klux Klan, the White Citizen's Council, segregationist mobs, and other white southerners committed to maintaining what they called the southern way of life, a society of black powerlessness and oppression. By the early 1960s, the close identification of the Confederate battle flag with opposition to integration and African-American rights had been sealed. The meaning and role of the flag in southern culture could never again be the same.

http://www.cwbr.com/civilwarbookreview/index.php?q=3376&field=ID&browse=yes&record=full&searching=yes&Submit=Search

[Judi Lynn]

25. Your excerpt was loaded with useful infomation. Thank you, very much for that. n/t

[kwassa]

26. You are welcome!

[Al Carroll]

27. Similar to TX

In my hometown of San Antonio, at the start of desegregation they built a school in the whitest part of town and named it Robert E Lee HS, with the CSA battle flag as its symbol. That was all deliberate. The flag was finally taken down in the 1980s as the area saw many Latinos moving in who hated it.

The glorification of Lee goes back to the Redeemers during Reconstruction and even the Civil War itself, but you're right that the flag didn't become the symbols of racists until the civil rights era.

[marions ghost]

29. Understand this

I am not in any way taking up for this flag. Thanks for the refresher on the early days of the KKK but you have to realize that not everybody in the South was a member. The vast majority were not.

What I am saying is that although this flag was used by KKK and others then, this was seen as a separate and extremist use of it by many Southerners who were very rah rah Southern history and defensive about losing the war. With the new wave of right wing extremists using it as their symbol these days there is no possible argument for the flag--it represents all that is racist and objectionable. Yes the flag needs to be retired and was in most places, long ago.

I just resent the idea that people think that the South was always as full of extremists as they want to think, just because of the flag.

[kwassa]

31. I have no preconceptions about the South.

I assume nothing about anyone by the region they come from.

That said, this isn't really about the flag, it is about identity, and what I still don't get from this is whether or not blacks and whites in the South share a common Southern identity, or if they are living two different narratives. I think the latter.

The South has had many extremists throughout it's history, and a history of violence that was more extreme than other parts of the country. This is historical fact. The South also has a history of terrorism against African-Americans after slavery was over, in the thousands of lynchings since the Civil War to intimidate enfranchised free black men out of their right to vote and democratically control their future. This does not mean that there was not racism in the North, there certainly was. It was simply far, far worse in the South. The Confederate flag did not create extremists, they were always there. I'm saying this from a historical perspective, not as a judgment on current day Southerners.

[marions ghost]

32. You are not from the South I think

Yes the races everywhere in America are living "two different narratives." But absolutely blacks and whites in the South share a common Southern identity.* To think anything else is absurd. It's not either/or. Large numbers of white Southerners have never supported racist ideas or racist politicians in history or in the present. People don't go to the South if they want to find kindred racists, nor did they in the past. They find them right around where they are.

You need to do more research. Look at the situation in large Northern and Midwestern cities, and LA. Racism between African Americans and whites is an American affliction, not only a Southern one, never mind the historical context and abomination of slavery.

*(Am assuming we are talking about those blacks and whites born and raised in the South, as having a common Southern identity.)

[kwassa]

33. Nope, I am a Yankee.

The difference in narrative is exemplified by the difference in perception of the Confederate battle flag. Many whites see it as a symbol of their Southern heritage, most blacks see it as the very symbol of racism. This is what I mean by a different narrative. I'm not saying that there are not cultural commonalities.

I get that.

Large numbers of whites in the South not supporting racist policies certainly doesn't translate at the ballot box. The voter i.d. movement in the South is clear evidence of that.

I am in an interracial marriage, I am white, my wife black, I've lived all over the US, though not in the South, I've read extensively on racial history, and the Civil War, and Reconstruction, etc.

[marions ghost]

35. OK

So after immersing yourself in Civil War and racial history, may I respectfully--suggest that you also attempt to get a more current reality check on the South? Because your attitudes formed by those readings seem somewhat skewed and out of date. The confederate flag is not revered by MOST Southerners. It is everywhere understood to be an emblem of racism, and MOST Southerners would not think of flying it. It has long been relegated to an historical artifact in the South.

I am a southerner, born & raised (though I have lived outside the country and other parts of the US). The people that I knew and grew up with never had any confederate flags and would certainly not support its use today --they consider it a clear symbol of right wing hate in general. Since MOST Southerners do not support the flag and are not racist, can we get over being tarred and feathered by it? The younger generations especially have no reason to be tarred by such a broad brush misconception of the South. It is unfair stereotyping (of a type that reminds me of racial profiling in fact). Regional profiling is not reality-based.

Re. the current voter ID movement--can you understand that this is all part of the
cynical right Koch fueled master plan for America? Take NC for example--are you aware that North Carolina has been hijacked and jerked sideways from the more progressive state it was just a few years ago? The corporatists are taking every advantage of the urban-rural divide in NC and fanning the flames of latent racism in conservative areas to their own economic advantage. Other states are vulnerable to these tactics as well.

Since you are a reader please read this:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/10/10/111010fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=all

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A good idea would be for you to talk to Yankees who have lived in the South for awhile (they can be found in large numbers) if you don't want to believe a southerner.

[GOLGO 13]

15. Slowly but surely...

The "Liberal" plot to cram Yankee values down the necks of the south has borne sweet, sweet fruit...

[alp227]

24. I don't get your post. nt

[marions ghost]

30. Ridiculous

n/t

[Paladin]

16. Nice move, Washington & Lee.

Far better some overdue progress, than the full-scale, ugly regression we see going on these days.

[sofa king]

17. I'll be careful how I say this.

That place treated me like dirt and worked me so deep into poverty that I finally had to quit because my clown bike broke and I couldn't afford to fix it. In the time I was there they received over $140 million in alumni donations--from just two people. So yeah, I'm a little bitter about 'em, and you should read my opinions with that in mind, because I ain't gonna be fair about it.

W&L is a sociopath factory, producing more southern CEOs than any other school you don't need to care about. The students function under an honor system whereby the rich and privileged students--about 85% of the student body, since any more than that runs afoul of racial bias laws--get to have daddy call the President and get off Scot free. W&L's student body has the highest percentage of fraternity and sorority members--way over 50%--of any four-year school in the U.S. The school's taste for cocaine throws off drug use statistics for fifty miles around.

When the much-maligned Museum of the Confederacy felt that the tide of progress was threatening their position in Richmond, they chose to move to Lexington, VA, in between Stonewall Jackson's grave and Robert E. Lee's. Publicly, the University took the position that the museum was a poor fit because the U chooses to amplify Lee's postwar commitment to reconstruction and education, blah blah blah. Privately, they fired everyone who crafted the position and made those public statements within four years. In reality, W&L was privately colluding with the Museum to secure them a lower rent in Richmond, and then purged their own ranks of--for lack of a better term--non-Confederates (and I do mean that with all possible connotation).

Publicly the U is going to twist into whatever pretzel they have to be to fit the outlines of acceptability. But privately, they'll have the fraternity change the flag over Traveller's grave from a battle flag to a Bonny Blue, or one of the several other Confederate flags that now proliferate in Lexington because the racists think they're being clever. (I cannot help wondering why everyone insists on targeting the battle flag alone--is it to encourage the display of the other flags?)

The pledges will also still have one of the most important jobs on campus. Visitors leave pennies on the grave of Lee's horse, and late at night, the pledges are sent out with flashlights to turn the pennies tail-up--so that Abraham Lincoln has to kiss Traveller's ass. (If you think I'm kidding about that I'll bet we can find a DUer passing through with a phone camera to prove it.) Because that's what Washington and Lee really is, whatever their public persona wishes to be.

I wish I could be a little more revolted or impassioned about it, but the truth of the matter is that the Valley of Virginia is a terribly ignorant, racist place, from the top down. Just remember that whatever red white and blue bullshit Washington and Lee tries to feed you, they have butternut in their souls.

[Paladin]

18. Everything you say rings true. Particularly Traveller's pennies. (nt)

[KamaAina]

20. Huh? If they're that rich, they should use $5 bills!

[user_name]

34. I guess that I'll be careful how I respond to this...

I attended and graduated from Washington and Lee. With hindsight, I realize that I could have made a better decision. However, reading your post really bothered me because you misrepresent the students and the strange relationship that the school has with the Civil War history.

First of all, I got significant financial aid as do 40+% of the students. My financial aid package did include student loans, but I graduated with $20,000 in student loans, the rest of my tuition and room and board paid for with work-study and grants. I witnessed none of the privilege that you speak of with regard to the honor code. In fact when I was a student, the daughter of one of the trustees was brought before the honor commission on charges, was convicted, and transferred to Vanderbilt. Her family's position with the school and wealth did nothing to prevent her from suffering the same fate that any other student would have faced. The trial was VERY public and scared the living daylights out of all of us.

As for the legacy of Robert E. Lee and the veneration of the Confederacy, coming from the north I don't really understand it. My husband who grew up in the south has more insight. I was embarrassed by displays of the Confederate Flag when I attended W&L. To me it is offensive and symbolizes a way of life that no one should admire. My husband has a more nuanced perspective. He would never possess a Confederate Flag, but he realizes that it means different things to different people. In fact when he was canvasing for Barack Obama, he went to a house out in the country where they were flying the Confederate Flag. He almost didn't stop, but decided to give it a shot. The family absolutely loved Obama. They were thrilled to have my husband visit, and sent him home with a load of preserves from their pantry. I definitely support the University's decision to remove the Flag from campus and think that it should have happened much sooner. It may not be as straight-forward a situation as you portray it to be. Robert E. Lee was president at the school. That brings a lot of baggage...

Finally, I am not a particularly worldly person, but I think that I would have noticed the cocaine epidemic during my 4 years at the school. I never joined a sorority, but was well accepted socially. While I personally hate the Greek system, I never found it oppressive. Much of the social life revolves around fraternities, but most of the parties are very inclusive with independents and different fraternity/sorority houses being included. And who really cares about some stupid fraternity prank with pennies - again, something that I never heard of - but, really?

Washington and Lee has many flaws. I would't want my children to go there, but I find it hard to accept such a blatant misrepresentation of the place.

[marions ghost]

36. Well said

As a southerner--I say thanks for your perspective on this.

[Tom Ripley]

21. Second place trophies