Exclusive: Ukraine rebel commander acknowledges fighters had BUK missile

[Bosonic]

Source: Reuters

A powerful Ukrainian rebel leader has confirmed that pro-Russian separatists had anti-aircraft missiles of the type Washington says were used to shoot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.

In an interview with Reuters, Alexander Khodakovsky, commander of the Vostok Battalion, acknowledged for the first time since the airliner was brought down in eastern Ukraine on Thursday that the rebels did possess the BUK missile system.

He also indicated that the BUK may have originated in Russia and could have been sent back to remove proof of its presence.

Before the Malaysian plane was shot down, rebels had boasted of obtaining the BUK missiles, which can shoot down airliners at cruising height. But since the disaster the separatists' main group, the self-proclaimed People’s Republic of Donetsk, has repeatedly denied ever having possessed such weapons.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/23/us-ukraine-crisis-commander-exclusive-idUSKBN0FS1V920140723

[dipsydoodle]

1. That was already known to be a fact.

They captured one move to the east By Kiev.

[Bosonic]

2. Did you read the third paragraph?

[dipsydoodle]

4. I'd missed that.

.

[Tarheel_Dem]

29. Yup. Your narrative is crumbling.

[dipsydoodle]

30. There was however something else that did become clear

which is for me to know and you to figure.

[Tarheel_Dem]

33. There's nothing left to "figure". We know exactly what happened, and Russia's the root cause.

The whole world can see it, why can't you?

[Adrahil]

31. dipsy, time to admit that innocent fighters against facism killed a planeload of civilians...

probably with Russia's help.

[KoKo]

50. No...the article seems to say that Ukraine provoked the attack...not Russia...

See my snip of the article, downthread.

[Adrahil]

51. That's nonsense.

An airliner at 30,000 + ft is not a tactical threat. It "provoked" nothing. It could not be mistaken for a tactical jet on an attack profile. And the rebels clearly thought they had shot down a cargo plane.... again, NOT a tactical threat.

That's just an impossibly preposterous position.

[KoKo]

52. No...it said that Ukrainian aircraft attacked the area just before

the Malaysian jet flew over. The rebels were provoked to hit the Ukrainian fighter jets and not the airliner.

That's how I read it and I bolded the snip from the article. It could be the translation was not good by Reuters...but, that's how it read to me. If you bothered to read my post on the thread below.

[dipsydoodle]

53. That may be the background reason

to Kiev confiscating all civilian and military flight information for that day.

[Adrahil]

55. So dippy... It's Ukraine's fault? That's your position?

I mean, that certainly lines up with Putin's position.

[lexx21]

92. It's the fault of the person who pressed the damn button.....

and rolling that monstrosity back into Russia to cover up the fact that you had it to begin with is sort of like driving your parents car through the side of their house and then hiding the keys so they wouldn't think you did it. That is the technology that is available to shoot down the plane, so sweeping the dog shit under the rug doesn't absolve you of any responsibility.

[Adrahil]

54. And yet, they targeted and killed an airliner....

...which cannot be mistaken for a fighter jet. C'mon....

[KoKo]

58. Read Post 45 for context...you have yet to do that......

????

[Adrahil]

94. Yes, I read the post. It's freakin' nonsense. I'll reply to it for ya.

Though I think you mean t#47, right?

[Codeine]

39. Just that?

Seems like you've missed quite a lot, actually.

[geek tragedy]

3. Sounds like you have new facts to learn. Read the story.

He's admitting these were owned by the rebels, not Ukraine.

And that they were not captured by the rebels, he said the ones captured by rebels were junk and not working.

[jakeXT]

6. Sounds confused that man ?

"What resources our partners have, we cannot be entirely certain. Was there (a BUK)? Wasn’t there? If there was proof that there was, then there can be no question."

[geek tragedy]

14. No, he has remarkable clarity.

He added: "I am an interested party. I am a ‘terrorist’, a ‘separatist’, a volunteer ... In any event, I am required to promote the side I represent, even if I might think otherwise, say otherwise or have an alternative view. This causes real discomfort to my soul."

If you read the entire thing, he has zero doubt that the rebels had Buks there. So much so, he says the Ukrainian government knew they were there too.

This seems clear also:

"I knew that a BUK came from Luhansk. At the time I was told that a BUK from Luhansk was coming under the flag of the LNR," he said, referring to the Luhansk People’s Republic, the main rebel group operating in Luhansk, one of two rebel provinces along with Donetsk, the province where the crash took place.

"That BUK I know about. I heard about it. I think they sent it back. Because I found out about it at exactly the moment that I found out that this tragedy had taken place. They probably sent it back in order to remove proof of its presence," Khodakovsky told Reuters on Tuesday.

[jakeXT]

18. And they knew Kiev used passenger planes as human shields

However, a Youtube video made a month before Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was shot down alleges that Ukranian fighter jets were hiding behind passenger planes, pulling away temporarily, dropping bombs on Ukrainian separatists, and then hiding again behind the plane (minor corrections of spelling and punctuation):

Terrible things are happening. For example, an incident that happened recently: passenger plane was flying by, and Ukrainian attack aircraft hid behind it. Then he lowered his altitude a bit and dropped bombs on residential sector of Semenovka town. Then he regained the altitude and hid behind the passenger plane again. Then he left.

They wanted to provoke the militia to shoot at the passenger plane. There would be a global catastrophe. Civilians would have died.

Then they would say that terrorists here did it. There are no terrorists here. There are regular people here that came out in defense of their own city.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/report-ukranian-fighter-jets-hid-behind-passenger-plane-pulled-away-dropped-bombs-hid-behind-plane.html

[geek tragedy]

21. You know not everything on the Internet is true, right?

That blog is looney-tunes.

[jakeXT]

24. But the State Department told me so.. /nt

[cosmicone]

26. It has been proven that Kiev ATC sent the Malaysian plane

into harm's way .... they were probably using it to send their own fighter jets behind it.

[tabasco]

105. That's the stupidest shit I've read today.

Congrats!

[happyslug]

22. "Owned" is a broad term....

I like the story of the Southern POW being walked by Union Artillery during the Civil war, he made the comment that "You have almost as many as these "US" cannons as we do". The Article I was reading was on the success of Southern Cavalry capturing Union Artillery pieces, but I bring it up here that the someone is claiming they "Owned" or have "Possession" of something, can include things CAPTURED by that side.

On top of this the Ukrainian Regular Army was made up of three Corps, one of which corresponds to the Russian Speaking Eastern Areas of the Ukraine. This reflects the old Soviet Policy of raising troops locally. That policy was driven in many ways, by the different languages spoken in the old Soviet Union. All orders were given in Russian, but translations into the dominate language within the unit was done.

The 6th Ukrainian Army Corp, the Army Corp in the Eastern Ukraine, had an Anti Aircraft unit attached to it, thus it is possible the missile system used to shot down this plane, came from the 6th Ukrainian Army Corp and has not been part of any Russian AA formation. Such a scenario would provide the weapon and the trained crew, AND the lack of any long range radar and information on Civilian planes (Which would be handed by longer range S-300 units). The Malaysian Plane hit was at the max range for the missile that shot it down.

Thus these may be captured unit, units transferred with a dissolution of the 6th Ukrainian Army Corp, or units provided by Russia. That it is reported that any captured units were junk, does not imply any units transferred from the 6th Ukrainian Army were junk. It also does not mean any units given to them by Russia were NOT junk (In the days of the Soviet Union, the Soviet Union often sold junk versions of their own military equipment to other nations, thus the definition of Junk can be relative).

Scary thought: This was a Ukrainian piece and it was Junk, but could still take out a Civilian Airliner, when it could NOT take down anything else. Thus when they detected the Airliner, the missile crew saw this as their chance to hit SOMETHING and fired. Given the range of the Missile, and the speed of the plane, the Missile crew had only five minutes to fire or not fire. Five minutes to decide if the plane was Military or Civilian. During times of stress that is NOT a long time.

[geek tragedy]

23. he's saying the rebels were in possession of the missiles

that it was a well-known fact

he also pretty much admits that the rebels did shoot the plane down, and suggested that they sent the missiles back to russia to hide their guilt

[reorg]

67. You seem to misunderstand what Reuters reported

"he's saying the rebels were in possession of the missiles"

He is nowhere saying that.


"that it was a well-known fact "

Not true. Please cite the passage you are refering to.


"he also pretty much admits that the rebels did shoot the plane down, and suggested that they sent the missiles back to russia to hide their guilt "

BS.

This is from the Reuters article:

Khodakovsky said his unit had never possessed BUKs, but they may have been used by rebels from other units. ...

"What resources our partners have, we cannot be entirely certain. Was there (a BUK)? Wasn’t there? If there was proof that there was, then there can be no question."

Khodakovsky said it was widely known that rebels had obtained BUKs from Ukrainian forces in the past, including three captured at a checkpoint in April and another captured near the airport in Donetsk. He said none of the BUKs captured from Ukrainian forces were operational.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/23/us-ukraine-crisis-commander-exclusive-idUSKBN0FS1V920140723

[geek tragedy]

70. Man, just like the Russian information ministry, your ability

to say that up is down and act like you believe it is AMAZING.

From the article:

"I knew that a BUK came from Luhansk. At the time I was told that a BUK from Luhansk was coming under the flag of the LNR," he said, referring to the Luhansk People’s Republic, the main rebel group operating in Luhansk, one of two rebel provinces along with Donetsk, the province where the crash took place.

"That BUK I know about. I heard about it. I think they sent it back. Because I found out about it at exactly the moment that I found out that this tragedy had taken place. They probably sent it back in order to remove proof of its presence," Khodakovsky told Reuters on Tuesday.

He was so sure it was there, he assumed the Ukrainians MUST have known about it too.

"They knew that this BUK existed; that the BUK was heading for Snezhnoye," he said, referring to a village 10 km (six miles) west of the crash site. "They knew that it would be deployed there, and provoked the use of this BUK by starting an air strike on a target they didn’t need, that their planes hadn’t touched for a week."

You see, if he's blaming the Ukrainians for provoking the use of the Buk by flying their fucking airplanes in the area knowing while knowing that the rebels had the Buks, as a matter of absolute logic he's conceding that (1) the rebels had them and (2) the rebels were the ones who fired the missiles.

I do predict this will be your side's next talking point to shift the blame.

[reorg]

74. "I heard about it" - "I think" - "They probably" - "I was told"

Even in the Reuters article, if you read it carefully, he never states that he actually knows a damn thing directly. It sounds like he offers hearsay and engages in speculation about non-Ukrainian factions among the militants that may have used such launchers.


But it these quibbles over interpretations are immaterial:

Khodakovskiy says that he never stated to his interviewer anything of the kind that has been attributed to him. What’s more, Khodakovskiy indicates that there are video recordings of the interview, in possession of several TV channels, which will prove him right – they will show, according to Khodakovskiy, that he never said that the Novorossiya Militia had BUK complexes and that this statement cannot be attributed to him.

...

News Anchor: Alexander Sergeevich, this is very important – you see, in the same interview it says that some other militias received this “BUK” complex. Do you know anything about this, in principle, or not?

Alexander Khodakovskiy: No, I do not know. In response to a question like this from the reporter, I challenged him to provide evidence, because our area is tightly monitored by all means possible, including also satellite imagery. So, please – “BUK” is a fairly large unit, and it can be easily detected from any type of photography – so, please, show your evidence, and we will then have to respond in accordance with its weight.

News Anchor: Once more, I would like to confirm it with you, so you can say it during our live broadcast – does the Militia currently have “BUK” or not?

Alexander Khodakovskiy: I am telling you absolutely – after we analyzed the entire situation and took inventory of the equipment in our arsenal – I can tell you with full authority that the Militia has no “BUKs”. MANPADS – yes, those we do have. But their upper ceiling is no more than …

News Anchor: … You do not now and never had any?

Alexander Khodakovskiy: We do not now and never had any.

...

http://is.gd/andjE2

[geek tragedy]

75. so, now that he's towing the Moscow line, he's no longer a double agent?

Guess he doesn't want Polonium tea for breakfast.

Anyhow, I doubt the viewers are stupid enough to believe his recantation. It takes a strong effort to be deliberately stupid to believe the rebels didn't shoot that plane down.

Most of the world refuses to be that stupid. They weren't buying Putin's lies before this atrocity.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/09/russias-global-image-negative-amid-crisis-in-ukraine/

Russia is much more of a pariah under Putin than the US under Bush ever was. Congratulations! Even the Venezuelans (who certainly don't love the US) and the "B" in BRIC view Russia negatively.



And, EVERYONE except the Chinese and Russians hate Putin. Even the Israelis and Palestinians agree!

[reorg]

77. Looks like Western propaganda is quite effective outside of China and India

I can attest to the fact that in Germany, the anti-Russian hysteria has reached new heights in the media throughout this year. It will have little or no effect on the actual, mostly economic relations, though, and many serious and senior experts have raised their voices loud and clear against this propaganda onslaught: former Chancellor Schmidt, most competent journalists such as Peter Scholl-Latour, Gabriele Krone-Schmalz, just to name a few. This is in line with the fact that the call for "sanctions" against Russia went unheeded except for some make-belief cosmetic action.

[geek tragedy]

80. No, it's that the rest of the planet doesn't get brainwashed by Russia's propaganda

Turns out, they don't like fascist regimes that invade their neighbors and try to destabilize an entire continent.

Venezuelans hate Putin, and they are not subject to 'western' propaganda.

They certainly don't like the nasty, bigoted thug who is your Czar.

Once Russians begin to realize that Ukraine is lost forever as an ally to Russia, and is in fact openly defiant of Russia, and that countries like Estonia have nothing to fear from the former great power, I wonder how long Putin's approval ratings will last.

I do hope you enjoy your role as China's petrol station.

[jakeXT]

91. They also have something prepared for Germany

Directs the President to establish a United States-German Global and European Security Working Group to focus on areas of mutual concern, including the situation in Ukraine, and increasing political, economic, and military cooperation between the two states.

https://beta.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/senate-bill/2277

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

5. But but but

another_liberal told us just a few days ago that Ukraine had to have shot down the Malaysian Air plane, because the rebels didn't have such weaponry!

Is this rebel commander calling a DU'er a shill for pro-Putin propaganda?

[Codeine]

34. That poster has been conspicuously absent

as the rebel narrative crumbled further and further into dust. Pathetic toadies rarely possess the courage of their convictions.

[geek tragedy]

36. maybe that young man went west nt

[davidpdx]

71. Good one

It seems like when one or two of them disappear, more come out of the ground like weeds.

[geek tragedy]

72. coincidentally, the low post ones appear

right when the high post ones go on vacation for linking to Holocaust denial sites

[davidpdx]

73. hmm...good observation

I never noticed that. Then again I'm not a very prolific poster.

[Iliyah]

7. Squirrel!

Hopefully the Dutch will find the answers and diplomatically bring the ones involved to justice.

[geek tragedy]

8. they can call this guy as a witness, he seems to have something

resembling a conscience

[amandabeech]

9. Further down in the article, Reuters reports that Khodakovsky is one of the

few separatist commanders who is actually Ukrainian. K. says that the Russian separatist commanders have the BUKs and he questions the use of the BUKs in situations other than defending against an attack. He does not sound particularly friendly toward the Russian commanders, either. Might a crack be growing in the separatists between Ukrainian and Russian separatists?

K. says that the separatists captured some BUKs systems from Urkainian government installations early on, but that those Ukrainian BUKs did not work, which might not be surprising considering that Ukraine's armed forced were in complete disrepair when this started. That points more clearly to the Russian Federation as the source of the BUKs being used now.

[geek tragedy]

10. this is a giant chasm between the factions.

he's essentially telling his comrades to go back to Russia. Sounds like he's ready to negotiate a peace deal.

[amandabeech]

12. He sounds tired of the whole thing.

He may be ready to negotiate a peace deal, but he may also be ready to switch sides and chase the Russian nationals out of Ukraine. Wouldn't that be something? Shooting a civilian airliner may have been the last straw for him.

[geek tragedy]

15. it has gone on too long. he knows it nt

[Iliyah]

19. Maybe, just maybe, this man has a heart.

Downing a plane with innocent people who had nothing to do with the situation on the ground can play havoc on a person's soul, if they have one. Hopefully he will name names, but alas, I fear he may not make it too much longer unless he goes into protective custody.

[amandabeech]

28. How many other "separatists" might feel the same way after the shoot-down.

The Ukrainian government might be wise to put out feelers with promises of western-style treatment for those separatist fighters who are ready to put down arms.

On another note, Barbara Starr just reported on CNN that Russian troops have moved close to the border again. Two Ukrainian military planes were shot down today and there is some question as to whether one of the planes was shot down by a missile fired from the Russian side of the border.

The last thing that I wish the US to do is get into a land battle with Russia in Ukraine, but Putin is simply behaving in an unacceptable manner. He has taken by force land on the other side of a border that his country agreed to respect by international agreement. This type of behavior in the past often has led to some very unpleasant circumstances of which we and the Europeans are well aware.

Ukraine, Syria, Israel/Palestine, Iraq, Libya, the North and South China Seas. I feel like I'm living in some sort of Tom Clancy "Sum of All Fears" novel that has no nice, neat end. President Obama seems to have come into office with the domestic policy goals of fixing the economy and proving health care for many who did not have it, and he's at least made good starts in both areas. But the rest of the world just seems to be spinning out of control, and I'm not sure that the administration, save for Sec. Kerry, is really prepared for this.

[jakeXT]

16. We have no other option,

"The split of the country is final. There is nothing uniting us with them (the Kiev leadership) now," Alexander Khodakovsky, a defector from the Ukrainian state security service who now commands Battalion Vostok, told Reuters.

...

"We have no other option," Khodakovsky said. "They should understand the consequences of fighting within a city if Poroshenko wants to go down in history as 'The Bloody One'."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/01/us-ukraine-crisis-vostok-idUSKBN0EC1LL20140601

[cosmicone]

27. He is probably a plant by the Ukrainian puppet government n/t

[ozone_man]

32. Didn't he switch sides

to the coup government? If so, maybe he is not such a reliable source.

[geek tragedy]

35. Nope. still shooting at government troops. He's just telling the truth, unlike

Moscow's apologists and shills in Ukraine and elsewhere.

[Codeine]

37. Oh good lord.

You're trolling now, dude.

[geek tragedy]

38. it's all they got. nt

[Cha]

61. Which begs the question.. wth do they have

invested in Russia?

[IronGate]

69. Oh good god,

now you're sounding desperate.

[geek tragedy]

11. "I am required to promote the side I represent, even if I might think otherwise

say otherwise or have an alternative view. This causes real discomfort to my soul."

Sounds like he had enough of lying on behalf of Moscow.

[jakeXT]

13. He also likes to make everything clear in his intercepted phone calls

“I have a request for you. It is not my request,” a man identified as Battalion Vostok Commander Alexander Khodakovsky says in one recording.

“Our friends from high above are very much interested in the fate of the black boxes. I mean people from Moscow.”

http://nypost.com/2014/07/21/new-recording-reveals-rebel-plot-to-steal-flight-mh17s-black-boxes/

[reorg]

20. sounds like he is the source for uncovering a lot of evil deeds

by the Russkis.

[geek tragedy]

57. That's it! Even though he's been waging war against Ukraine's government

and armed forces for months, the fact that he refuted the obvious lies from Moscow must mean he's a double agent and actually working for the CIA/Bilderbergs/Svoboda/Pussy Riot.

Beyond self-parody at this point.

[reorg]

59. Khodakovskiy says that he never stated to his interviewer anything of the kind

Khodakovskiy says that he never stated to his interviewer anything of the kind that has been attributed to him. What’s more, Khodakovskiy indicates that there are video recordings of the interview, in possession of several TV channels, which will prove him right – they will show, according to Khodakovskiy, that he never said that the Novorossiya Militia had BUK complexes and that this statement cannot be attributed to him.

Did the interviewer somehow misunderstand what Khodakovskiy was saying? According to Khodakovskiy, his interviewer spoke Russian quite well. Is it possible that Khodakovskiy is lying? The interview with Khodakovskiy was taped. Copies of portions of the videotape were submitted to other news channels, including to REN-TV and ORT. Khodakovskiy speaks confidently that he never said anything of the kind that was reported by Reuters.

http://is.gd/andjE2

Transcript of LifeNews Interview with Alexander Khodokovskiy

Reporter: One of the leaders of the Militia, Alexander Khodakovskiy, has refuted the information published by the Reuters agency.

Today, Western journalists disseminated an interview given by the commander of Battalion “Vostok”, in which he allegedly confirmed that the Militia had in its possession a “BUK” complex at the time of the crash of the Malaysian Boeing.

However, Alexander Khodokovskiy states that he said nothing of the sort to the agency. And, right now, on the line with our studio is the commander of the Militia Battalion “Vostok”, Alexander Khodakovskiy.

(...)

Reporter: Once more, I would like to confirm it with you, so you can say it during our live broadcast – does the Militia currently have “BUK” or not?

Alexander Khodakovskiy: I am telling you absolutely – after we analyzed the entire situation and took inventory of the equipment in our arsenal – I can tell you with full authority that the Militia has no “BUKs”. MANPADS – yes, those we do have. But their upper ceiling is no more than …

Reporter: … You do not now and never had any?

Alexander Khodakovskiy: We do not now and never had any.

...

Links: full transcript, LifeNews Interview in Russian (with video)

[geek tragedy]

64. Life News.

[reorg]

65. Do you speak Russian?

Can you confirm or deny that what he says in the video is what the transcript says?

[geek tragedy]

66. Say, why did Team Putin not release

their intel on where the launch occurred? Unless I missed it, they never gave the coordinates of where the missile came from or its path?

[reorg]

68. I don't know about Putin, but I did.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=853165

[Billy Budd]

76. men wearing Ukraine Military Uniform fired the missile

Our Government knows all about it ...........

U.S. intelligence analysts were examining satellite imagery that showed the crew manning the suspected missile battery wearing what looked like Ukrainian army uniforms, but my source said the analysts were still struggling with whether that essentially destroyed the U.S. government's case blaming the rebels.

The Los Angeles Times article
http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-80870402/
on Tuesday's briefing seemed to address the same information this way: "U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 [anti-aircraft missile] was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems."

That statement about a possible "defector" might explain why some analysts thought they saw soldiers in Ukrainian army uniforms tending to the missile battery in eastern Ukraine. But there is another obvious explanation that the U.S. intelligence community seems unwilling to accept: that the missile may have been launched by someone working for the Ukrainian military.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Mystery-of-a-Ukrainian-by-Robert-Parry-Intelligence_Killing_Media_Russia-140722-948.html

[geek tragedy]

78. Robert Parry, a known Kremlin sycophant, is the only source on the planet for the uniform claim.

Not the United States or its intelligence agencies.

Just a pathetic has-been writer who sucks up to Vladimir Putin for a living.

Sorry, your little fairy tale is almost certainly nothing more than wishful thinking, a fairy tale the Putin Defense League tells itself in order to sleep at night.

[Billy Budd]

79. Robert Parry is a noted journalist

Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories in the 1980s for the Associated Press and Newsweek....you on the other hand are admittedly a "geek tragedy" yes sir...go to the link of the LA Times ...see what they report

[geek tragedy]

81. "in the 1980's" --yes, part of being a "has-been" is having once displayed merit and achievement.

that no longer describes that little poodle of Putin

P.S. the LA Times article doesn't say anything about uniforms. Only Putin's poodle does.

[Billy Budd]

82. However

The sobriquet "geek tragedy" applies now more than ever to a sycophant of the Military Industrial Complex Empire ....

[geek tragedy]

83. have you ever been west, young man? nt

[Billy Budd]

84. yes I saw this on the LA Times

U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems.

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-80870402/

Hahhahahahah now its a "Defector" how about its a Ukraine army officer not a defector ...cui bono who benefits from the shoot down ...not Russia or the Rebels ..ok geek tragedy lol

[geek tragedy]

85. "it was possible the SA-11 was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained

to use similar systems"

The point is not uniforms as that idiot Parry is claiming. It's about who trained the operator of the missiles. The three options being:

1) Russian military
2) separatists trained by Russian military
3) defector from Ukrainian army


And the reason no one other than that idiot Parry is talking about them being operated by the Ukrainian army is the fact that they were in territory controlled by the rebels.

And, has been explained numerous times, "cui bono" does not apply to mistakes and blunders. If you do not understand why "cui bono" is inapplicable to mistakes and blunders and accidents, well good luck with the rest of your life.

[Billy Budd]

87. what about number 4

Number 4 is ...it was not a defector it was a Ukrainian Officer loyal to Kiev who fired the missile because it was part of Black Op ...Kiev/Washington Black Op...why its a Geek tragedy ...

[geek tragedy]

88. No intelligent, sane human being believes this was a US-sponsored black op. nt

[geek tragedy]

90. Because people who promote that crazy talk cite white supremacists like Paul Craig Roberts to

back it up.

[cosmicone]

40. The guy is obviously a plant and not a real rebel representative

Even if he is mad at the Russians, why would he otherwise sell out his whole movement by talking to the media and recording phone calls? It doesn't help his cause -- very very suspicious.

[geek tragedy]

42. .

[GliderGuider]

45. Excellent comparison.

[cosmicone]

48. More like

[Codeine]

44. The straws, you must grasp at them!!

Grasp, dammit!! GRASP!!

[cosmicone]

46. It is not a straw but a huge sturdy column with handles to hold n/t

[Codeine]

49. Mmm-hmm. nt

[Adrahil]

56. He was reported as a rebel commander by the NYT 6 weeks ago.

As to your assertions, perhaps he's simply fed up with the dumb-assery of some of the other organizations.

[blackspade]

17. Oppsie!

These 'rebels' are way dirtier than the 'fascists' that took over Kiev.

[William769]

25. Kick & recommended.

[GliderGuider]

43. Sounds like he's close to unburdening his soul.

I wonder how long he'll be looking at the grass from above?

[KoKo]

47. My read is that he's saying Ukraine provoked the missle attack

by attack with their aircraft just before the Malaysian jet flew over.

"The question is this: Ukraine received timely evidence that the volunteers have this technology, through the fault of Russia.It not only did nothing to protect security, but provoked the use of this type of weapon against a plane that was flying with peaceful civilians," he said.

"They knew that this BUK existed; that the BUK was heading for Snezhnoye," he said, referring to a village 10 km (six miles) west of the crash site. "They knew that it would be deployed there, and provoked the use of this BUK by starting an air strike on a target they didn’t need, that their planes hadn’t touched for a week."

"And that day, they were intensively flying, and exactly at the moment of the shooting, at the moment the civilian plane flew overhead, they launched air strikes. Even if there was a BUK, and even if the BUK was used, Ukraine did everything to ensure that a civilian aircraft was shot down."

[reorg]

60. He now says he never made the alleged statement

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=854158

Sounds as if these soundbites were pulled from an discussion with a lot of hypotheticals (what if, even if we would have never etc).

[KoKo]

62. Well...it came from the Reuter's Report of the OP.....

Who knows? I'm still trying to figure it all out. But, my quotes from the Reuters were what the OP posted with the link...which I did take the time to read.

So...he has recanted. Interesting.

[reorg]

63. Yes, I know

The main thrust even in the interview as related by Reuters appears to be that the Ukrainian military is to blame for provoking such an accident. In another interview in Russian TV he has not "recanted", he explicitly states that he never made the remarks attributed to him such as that the militia had Buk missile launchers. If I remember correctly, Reuters quoted him as saying "I heard about it" and that he had heard such launchers were on their way from Luhansk.

[Adrahil]

95. This is SUCH BS

A large, civilian airliner at 33,000 ft, flying in a straight line looks NOTHING like a tactical aircraft on an attack profile.

And the social media posts indicate that the rebels thought they had shot down an AN26, NOT a tactical attack aircraft.

In other words, this "context" is complete bullshit.

Even if you're sympathetic to rebels, there is simply no reasonable doubt that they are responsible for the deaths of nearly 300 innocent people. And Russians were, at the least, complicit.

[reorg]

97. perhaps it is, perhaps not, using airliners as human shields

seemed to be a common experience, or perhaps it's just a theory?

Says this woman in a video uploaded on June 18:

1:09 For example an incident that happened recently. Passenger plane was flying by.
1:16 And Ukrainian attack aircraft hid behind it.
1:22 Then he lowered his altitude a bit and dropped bombs on residential sector of Semenovka town.
1:27 Than he regained the altitude and hid behind the passenger plane again. Then he left.
1:31 They wanted to provoke the militia to shoot at the passenger plane. There would be a global catastrophe. Civilians would have died.
1:49 Then they would say that terrorists here did it. There are no terrorists here. There are regular people here,
1:55 that came out in defence of their own city.
2:00 They can't bear this anymore. How long is this going to go on.
2:05 There are children here, elderly people, WW2 veterans that have to live through it again.
2:12 Don't you have any humanity left in you?

[joshcryer]

93. Reuters releases the audio:

http://www.rferl.org/media/video/ukraine-rebel-commander-buk-missile/25468569.html?nocache=1

In case anyone was still believing Khodakovsky that Reuters made it up.

[reorg]

96. But you link to "Radio Free Europe"?

In case you were wondering why I ask, we have three different versions now. Compare:

Original Reuters quote (in writing):

"I knew that a BUK came from Luhansk. At the time I was told that a BUK from Luhansk was coming under the flag of the LNR," he said, referring to the Luhansk People’s Republic, the main rebel group operating in Luhansk, one of two rebel provinces along with Donetsk, the province where the crash took place.

"That BUK I know about. I heard about it. ..."

http://is.gd/vGlRYb

Subtitles in video with audio provided by the (former?) CIA-financed Radio Free Europe:

"I knew that a Buk was coming from Luhansk. At the moment, I was told that a Buk was coming from Luhansk under the flag of the Luhansk People's Republic toward Snizhne.

I do know about that Buk, I heard about it. ..."

http://is.gd/kDrAVk

Voice-over translation in video with audio provided by Reuters:

"I knew that a Buk came from Luhansk. At the time I was told that a Buk was coming from Luhansk under the flag of the LNR towards Snizhne.

I do NOT know about this Buk, I've heard about it. ..."

http://is.gd/auB5P3

[joshcryer]

98. "I knew that a Buk came from Luhansk"

In all three translations.

[reorg]

99. "I do NOT know about this Buk ...

... I've heard about it" says Reuters NOW.

I found out about it at exactly the moment that I found out that this tragedy had taken place.
http://is.gd/vGlRYb

I found out about it exactly when I learned that this tragedy had happened.
http://is.gd/kDrAVk

I found out about it when I found out that this tragedy happened.
http://is.gd/auB5P3

[joshcryer]

100. So, confirmation.

He just didn't see it with his own lying eyes.

[reorg]

101. I know you are not really that slow

First, the audio/video doesn't start at the beginning of the interview. He is right in the middle of a meandering discourse, trying to point out that the Ukrainian army was using the passengers of civilian airliners as human shields while attacking militants or even positions that didn't have any strategic value in order to provoke a catastrophe. Regardless of whether this theory is well-founded - it wasn't just his own and must have been based on experiences they had, see: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014853729#post97

Second, he clearly says he didn't know anything about Buks being in the possession of militants, but that he "heard about" it, AFTER the accident had happened. Who knows from whom and under what circumstances.

[geek tragedy]

102. If the rebels didn't have Buks, Ukraine

could not have possibly used passenger jets as human shields.

[reorg]

103. just read what Khodakovsky said, please?

It comes out a little discombobulated, but his basic argument is this:

You all say you know for a fact that the militants had Buks and an prove it. (In the press conference by the Ukraine Security Service it was stated explicitly that they had "known" this several days before the accident.) Why then did your bombers stay in the vicinity of passenger planes - although you "knew" that militants would try and shoot the bombers and might hit the airliners instead?

This question stands even if the militants did in fact have not a single Buk launcher. Because the Ukraine claims they were convinced they had and therefore had to assume that they were being used.

[geek tragedy]

104. Seems like an attempt to transition

from one set of blame-shifting talking points to another.