LA coroner: Burglar killed by homeowner not pregnant

[Archae]

Source: CBS news

Prosecutors were waiting Friday for the results of a police investigation into the killing of a burglar by an 80-year-old California homeowner who says he shot the woman in the back as she fled his home and ran down an alley, the district attorney's office said.

Long Beach resident Tom Greer, 80, told KNBC-TV that the burglar had said she was pregnant and asked Greer not to fire but he shot her twice in the back anyway.

An autopsy later found that Andrea Miller, 28, was not pregnant, said Ed Winter, coroner's spokesman.

Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/la-coroner-burglar-killed-by-homeowner-not-pregnant/

---

It's beginning to look more and more like a pair of tweakers broke into the guys home, injured him badly and then ran when they saw he had a gun, the girl lying about being pregnant.

This looks like a case of rage, the guy was hurting, and the thugs were getting away.
So he shot at both of them, hitting the girl.

[uppityperson]

1. Thank you for the story. That is good, but he still thought she was when he killed her.

"his legal right to use force probably ended just a few seconds before he did use deadly force"

[lululu]

20. who says he thought she was pregnant?

He could just as easily have thought she was lying.

I'm with the OP. This guy was beaten to the point of at least one broken bone, by criminals who were on their what, third invasion of his house. I'd be shooting at them too. If I were an attorney I'd be making a case for self defense even if they were running away this time.

I don't think one can expect a calm analysis of the situation by a homeowner who's severely injured. Instead I'd expect him to go for his obliterating these people who were a clear and present ongoing danger to him.

[uppityperson]

42. Fwiw, a broken collar bone is not severely injured and is easy to do with an elderly person

Elderly people break bones easily. Getting pushed down or even falling down, a broken bone often happens. And a broken collar bone, clavicle, is not being severely injured, even for an elderly person.

He said she said she was pg and by shooting her he'd send a message to the other person.

Where does it say these 2 had previously twice invaded his home as I missed that? I haven't followed this story that closely and if you have more info, I'd appreciate seeing it. Thank you. (not snark but meant honestly)

[freshwest]

49. Other threads have links that say both the man and woman jumped on top of him and punched him.

He got away as they considered him down for the count and went to open the safe. That's not an accident like 'he fell and was injured' as some might think.

The fact that old people are more easily injured doesn't mitigate the cause of the injury, anymore than it would a child being easily injured. If it was a child whose injury was minimized as being said to be easily injured, it would be seen as offensive.

The two robbers only gave ground when they saw the gun. And as might be construed that the robbers were 'not armed' denies that this turned from a 'burglary' into a case of what is known as a 'strong arm robbery.' They were armed by their ability, which they used to bowl him over and beat him.

She also assaulted him with her fists, no way to deny that. I posted a link with pictures, they were strong and healthy looking individuals.

He went for his gun as the only way to equalize his chances if they decided to jump on him and start punching him again, maybe even killing him without the use of 'arms' as we call guns, but they were definitely 'armed.'

Another thread link says his home had been broken into three times. The couple appeared to have planned the robbery and were determined to still get the goods after the assault. They weren't exactly in fear of him nor sorry for having hurt him. I suggest that their lack of mercy led him to respond as he did.

The claim is made he bragged about his shooting her, but another link says that it is not sure she was shot from behind. That came from the official investigation.

That is a major point if they were running, and he went on the offensive after the danger had passed. Some claim that his shooting was premeditated and thus murder. Their actions were clearly premeditated and were carried out in a vicious manner.

His acts and words were likely the result of not believing her claim after he'd been the recipient of her punching him, in a very upclose and personal way. That image is much more powerful than any words she could have said afterwards.

The issue of the gun and the idea there was a pregnancy are foremost in many minds. The latter has been debunked and the former I have tried to explain is not the only way to do harm, as physical strength will kill just as surely as a gun.

Also perhaps that the dead person in this case was female and gave her actions a different slant. It's been discussed a great due to the alleged baby, and has a potent use with those traditions against harming a woman as a potential, or in fact, mother.

And the claim is made that the old man cared more about 'his stuff' than a human life. But the robbers cared far more about getting 'stuff' than his life or their own lives.

His life and body and his dignity as a human being was the 'stuff' he wanted to save, not just 'stuff.' They had no right to take that from him, but were willing to use violence to take his health, body and possibly his life, too. No one seems to want to address that.

The couple became responsible for all that followed their assault, as none of this had to happen. The shooter was not to blame for their lives prior to this encounter, nor can any of us be held responsible for people we don't actively or passively try to harm.

It's been suggested he might be a right wing 'gun nut.' We don't know what his life is about or his political views as has been speculated.

I think the old man was in fear of his life and proud he saved his life if he spouted off, as has been reported. But he did not instigate this and more than likely been happy to have never shot anyone.

Other than making those points, I don't feel I've any right to judge any of the three, sitting here comfortably behind a keyboard. I feel lucky that I am not him or the robbers. This is not our lives we are talking about here.

[LiberalFighter]

58. I go with you.

Along with there are laws in some states that increase the criminal penalty when assault is on elderly or handicapped people. Also, if it can reasonably be assumed that an assault is on a pregnant woman. He would in my opinion be within his right to assume that a woman would not be involved in an assault that would increase the odds of her suffering injury. An attorney likely would be able to dissuade a jury of the pregnant woman add on.

[marble falls]

25. He shot her in the back while she was fleeing. Jail time.

[awoke_in_2003]

52. +1000. nt

[magical thyme]

28. I wouldn't have believed her for a minute. Why would I think that

a thug and burglar is going to be honest in any way shape or form? I've been robbed before (though by family members, not strangers). Of course when you catch them in the act, they use any excuse to beg for mercy. In my experience, the minute you show them that mercy, they take you down with a smirk.

The old man was in pain, frightened and defending himself.

The thing is, when you're old, your reflexes are slower by far than when you are young. So their reflexes to make a run for it were faster than his reflex to shoot them before they killed him. There's your "few seconds" between his legal right to use force and his actual pulling of the trigger. They set his defensive reactions in motion; his slower reflexes gave them time to turn tail.

[uppityperson]

43. Except the story now reads like he followed her, then shot, then shot her again when she fell

However, the story is still probably not accurate, so I will withhold further judgement until more is learned, put out.

[blackspade]

2. Yep, that makes it ok to shoot her in the back.

[7962]

9. Police chief did not confirm that she was shot in the back

[blackspade]

33. No, but the shooter did.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

17. Yeah,...because I'm sure a judge would have given the death sentence anyway for a burglary.

[blackspade]

32. You know it.

.....

[Shemp Howard]

3. Murder

If the shooting was in the house, the old man could have claimed self-defense, and I would have been okay with that, perhaps even if the girl was shot in the back.

But this shooting was in an alley, after the girl had tripped and fell while running away. That's murder. And if I were on the jury, I'd have no problem at all sending him to prison for 10 years.

[C Moon]

4. Yeah, this sounds like revenge.

[nomorenomore08]

16. +2

I agree completely.

[Lucky Luciano]

34. I'm ok with this. These burglars are only contributing to global

...Warming since they are exhaling CO2 while contributing nothing of value.

I think the old man can argue self defense easily (maybe not to the letter of law, but with public opinion) because they have already harmed him three times - if he didn't get rid of her, then she could come back and do more harm.

[tabasco]

39. Your comment is depraved.

Seek help.

[Lucky Luciano]

44. Duly noted. nt

[christx30]

47. I have to agree with you

about the self defense claim. The lesson is "play stupid games, get stupid prizes."
Criminals that pray on the weak and break into houses of old people really piss me off. The police seem to be unable to stop it from happening. This guy stopped it. The woman is dead and the man will soon be arrested. They will never harm him again.
Charge the boyfriend with felony murder. It fits here.

[Lucky Luciano]

48. Looks like the accomplice is being charged with murder. Good. nt

[Thor_MN]

55. He could be charged with burglary of the homeowner and as the homeowner's accomplice in murder.

This planet keeps getting odder and odder.

[rocktivity]

57. The pair were committing burglary until the Mr. Greer arrived home -- then it also became a robbery.

Last edited Sun Oct 5, 2014, 04:09 PM - Edit history (1)

Burglary is considered a crime against property, robbery is considered a crime against a person. If you come home to find that there's been a break in, you've been burgled (whether anything was actually stolen or not). If you wake up to find that someone managed to break in without waking you up, you've been robbed (whether anything was actually stolen or not).


rocktivity

[Thor_MN]

59. You really missed the point.

He could face charges for crimes both against and with Mr. Greer.

[rocktivity]

60. My point was only to explain the difference between burlgary and robbery.

By participating in the burglary turned assault and robbery, which resulted in the death of his partner in crime, the accomplice CAN be charged with crimes "both against and with Mr. Greer!"


rocktivity

[Thor_MN]

61. Which had what relevance to my post?

I personally know the difference, having experienced someone breaking into my mother's house while she was at home. Dumbass put a picture of himself on the laptop that I bought her for Christmas and then he pawned it. I found the picture after after she got it back when the pawnshop checked the serial number and I had to break the password the idiot had set. While correct, your unneeded explanation of robbery is a bit misleading. Robbery occurs if a resident of the home is present during the break in, regardless of if woken up or not.

The article has been updated since I posted, it used to say that the District Attorneys office was recommending charges of burglary and murder, which is what I commented on.

What's with the emphasis on the point that I originally made? I posted because he "CAN be charged..."

[rocktivity]

64. My post was "needed" by anyone who DOESN'T know the legal difference

Last edited Sun Jul 27, 2014, 12:01 PM - Edit history (6)

between robbery and burglary. It wasn't directed at you personally, and if Mr. Greer IS charged with murder, I hope the surviving lowlife IS charged as an accessory.


rocktivity

[Thor_MN]

68. Seemed personal, with the added emphasis, but I guess it's not a big deal.

Accessory to multiple crimes with his partner against Greer and accessory with Greer to her murder. This guy is screwed.

[rocktivity]

56. Felony or third degree murder

In most states, you've also committed a murder if someone dies as the result of your committing a felony -- and it doesn't matter who or how. If Mr. Greer had dropped dead of a heart attack, or if woman had fallen down and broken her neck while fleeing instead of being shot, the charge against the accomplice would be the same.


rocktivity

[SunSeeker]

5. "...these punks...they always get away..."

Again, a man with a gun makes himself judge, jury and executioner.

[Lucky Luciano]

37. Wrong analogy. Trayvon was 200% innocent and minding his own business. nt

[MH1]

40. Imprecise analogy, but the "judge, jury, and executioner" part is accurate.

Would Zimmerman have been justified if he was ABSOLUTELY convinced that the kid he was confronting was one who had just the other day inflicted harm on one of his neighbors, and was going to keep coming back to do more harm if someone didn't stop him?

We have a legal system for a reason.

[Lucky Luciano]

46. In your scenario just described it would not be justified,

...but the scenario in question involved burglars who invaded for a third time __AND__ assaulted the man violently enough to break his collar bone - attempted murder if you ask me given the old man was 80. The legal system failed to catch these women - they would likely return. Therefore, the old man did what he had to do before he got killed.

[SunSeeker]

62. My point was he was getting retribution for prior break-ins.

Like Zimmerman, he believed his victim was "connected to" prior break-ins even though he had no evidence:

Greer told police that his home had been broken into three times prior, two reported and one unreported, and he believed Miller and Adams were connected to those robberies also.

http://lbpost.com/news/crime/2000004059-long-beach-man-arrested-in-connection-with-tuesday-night-burglary-in-bixby-knolls#.U9TKFqNlDFo


You don't get to be judge jury and executioner, even if your hunch is right. Unfortunately, a gun makes it a lot more likely a person will act on that retribution urge. I think what Greer did was murder. It certainly was not self defense. He shot her in the back, twice, as she was running away.

[MattP]

6. Jury nullification is a big possibility

I would convict but I can't see getting 12 people to convict but I think they should

[samsingh]

7. its not florida - maybe there will be some criminal justice

and this killer will go to prison for the rest of his miserable existence

[Kablooie]

8. The man also claims they attacked him.

He had been burglarized twice before.

[magical thyme]

29. he's not just claiming it. his shoulder and collarbone were seriously injured. nt

[The Second Stone]

10. In California this is second degree murder if she is already fleeing

even if his story is completely true, the best he can hope for is voluntary manslaughter, but shooting her in the back while she is fleeing is isn't going to well for him. Bet he wishes now he lived in Florida.

[Kablooie]

11. They haven't decided whether to being charges against him yet.

[Kennah]

12. I'm not seeing the relevance of the pregnancy, under the law

Yes, it will make an emotional difference to a jury. However, shooting and killing a fleeing felon isn't even close to justified.

[ripcord]

13. I am calling it now

He will get a deal and do probation, no DA is going to try an 80 year old man who had his collarbone broke in the assault. Was is murder, probably, but getting a conviction is something else entirely.

[Archae]

35. "Law and Order" did a show on an elderly man charged with 2nd degree murder.

He had Alzheimers, and one of the DA's went to a prison to see how old inmates fare.
Not good.

[harun]

54. Yeah, probation plea. Done.

[rocktivity]

67. DING DING DING! Ripcord, you're our grand prize winner!

Last edited Sun Jul 27, 2014, 07:53 PM - Edit history (1)

Was is murder(?) Probably, but getting a conviction is something else entirely.

Sad but true -- and I said as much yesterday:

I think the DA has to file charges. But since no jury would ever convict a white 80-year old victim of robbery and violence, maybe a plea deal can be worked out.

From the OP article:

They assaulted him, breaking his collarbone, before he was able to get a handgun, the chief said...

Police said he fired shots inside and outside his house...

(T)his case enters a gray area because Greer, by his own account, chased the burglars and fired at them outside his home as they were fleeing...

HOW did Greer get his gun -- by going into another room? I guess the robbers didn't tie him up or anything because they thought they'd incapacitated him sufficiently.


rocktivity

[freshwest]

14. Had not heard they were outside the house. That changes things. Thanks.

[delrem]

15. At 80 years of wisdom, I wonder if he'll live his remaining years at peace with himself?

Just wondering...

[lululu]

21. probably more at peace

than if they were coming back to beat or possibly kill him again. 80 years old, a broken bone and a beating, do you have any idea what it's like to be injured at that age and to live in fear? How much force do you think it takes to break someone's collarbone?

[Feral Child]

22. 8 lbs.

That's for a man in his prime. An 80 year old likely has osteoporosis.

It's an easy disabling strike in many martial arts systems.

You seem awfully eager to excuse a man who shot someone when he was no longer in danger.

[marble falls]

26. He shot her in the back while she was fleeing. Murdered or with a broken collar bone - which.....

would you rather be?

[uppityperson]

45. Here is some info about broken collarbones, clavicle fractures. Very common in all ages.

http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=a00072

A broken collarbone is also known as a clavicle fracture. This is a very common fracture that occurs in people of all ages.
(clip)

Clavicle fractures are often caused by a direct blow to the shoulder. This can happen during a fall onto the shoulder or a car collision. A fall onto an outstretched arm can also cause a clavicle fracture. In babies, these fractures can occur during the passage through the birth canal....(more)

[Duckhunter935]

51. or getting beat by two robbers to

incapacitate the victim. Too bad for them he did not go down for the count and had a weapon to equalize the odds of two strong individuals and the 80 year old.

[uppityperson]

53. That post was to give information about broken collarbones. Thanks for reading it.

[Archae]

65. Some years ago, I broke my collarbone.

I leaned back too far with my office chair and fell over.

As it was, the break didn't heal right, (thanks mostly to a emergency room quack who said it wasn't broken, she never did any x-rays,) so I had to have part of my hip bone grafted to the collarbone.

[Paladin]

30. I wouldn't credit him with much wisdom.

He shot a fleeing perpetrator in the back and killed her, when it wasn't necessary to do so. And it doesn't appear that he has any subsequent qualms about it. Not very wise, in my opinion. But it's yet another incident which makes the pro-gun movement look bad, so I'm good with that.

[hadrons]

18. The robbers assulted him and broke his collarbone....

sorry, I'm not going to be as harsh on the homeowner given his likely state of being 80 year old, in pain and in a situation with violent intruders.

[Travis_0004]

19. I agree

Im not saying it was right to shoot her, but he may not have been thinking clearly right after he was assulted in his home and made one bad decision without thinking it through. I would not convict the old man. I think the boyfriend is probably more likely to get convicted of murder under the felony murder rule.

[kelliekat44]

23. As I understand it, this was not the first time they robbed him? At any rate, the man was probably

in a state of panic. Shooting a fleeing suspect in the back has some legal ramifications, though.

[marble falls]

27. As well it should.

[840high]

36. Yep

[JVS]

24. Lies make baby Jesus cry.

[Bluenorthwest]

31. The DUers who attacked others for pointing out that the pregnancy was a matter of the word of a

thief who'd just beaten an elderly man and not an established fact should make amends for that. So many claimed 'he shot her baby' or 'her and her kid'. Those people were in the wrong. Claimed the man shot a baby without any basis in fact and they did so for reasons of rhetorical self indulgence.

[jamzrockz]

38. What a relief

Its good to know he just shot an empty vessel.

[MH1]

41. +1000

[unreadierLizard]

50. DU...

Where defending burglars who beat up an old man who shot and killed one to defend himself is the norm.

Hope yall never have your homes burgled and you get beaten up.

[SunSeeker]

63. No one is defending burglars. We're objecting to murder. nt

[Third Doctor]

66. I'm sorry

but I can't feel much compassion for two thieves (attackers) that victimized and beat a 80 yo man repeatedly. It's good that the lady that was shot turned out not to be pregnant. That would mean that her actions put not only herself in danger but a unborn child. The fact that she was running (after she had beaten a weaker victim) and saw the odds go against her when she saw the gun, may have legal ramifications. I think the victim would probably accept a plea deal of some sort. That would be just in this matter.

[JanMichael]

69. an asshole contest- and a gun culture

All there is to debate here is "who is the bigger jerk?"

An 80 year old man who had strangers in his home and understandably lost it? A 28 year old woman and companion who broke into his home?

There are no "winners" in this case- none. Zero. Anyone declaring the biggest jerk is just satisfied with their own navel gazing.