Israel vows to destroy Hamas tunnels
Source: AP-Excite
By PETER ENAV and IBRAHIM BARZAK
JERUSALEM (AP) Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Thursday that Israel will destroy the Hamas tunnel network in the Gaza Strip "with or without a cease-fire," as the military called up another 16,000 reservists to pursue its campaign in the densely-populated territory.
Netanyahu's vow came as international efforts to end the 23-day-old conflict seemed to sputter despite concern over the mounting death toll, with more than 1,300 Palestinians, mostly civilians, and more than 50 Israelis, almost all of them soldiers, killed since July 8.
"We have neutralized dozens of terror tunnels and we are committed to complete this mission, with or without a cease-fire," Netanyahu said. "Therefore I will not agree to any offer that does not allow the military to complete this important mission for the security of the people of Israel."
An initial Israeli aerial campaign against Hamas was widened into a ground offensive on July 17. Since then the campaign has concentrated on destroying more than 30 cross-border tunnels that militants have constructed to carry out attacks on Israeli territory.
FULL story at link.
A displaced Palestinian waits with the mattresses she got for members of her family at the Abu Hussein U.N. school, in Jebaliya refugee camp, northern Gaza Strip, hit by an Israeli strike earlier, on Wednesday, July 30, 2014. Some 3,300 Gazans seeking shelter from the fighting had been crowded into the U.N. school in Jebaliya refugee camp when it was hit by a series of Israeli artillery shells Wednesday. (AP Photo/Lefteris Pitarakis)
Read more: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20140731/ml-israel-palestinians-2dbdcd892a.html
bemildred
(90,061 posts)ann---
(1,933 posts)1000's of innocents. Palestinians have a right to defend themselves against Israel aggression.
Orrex
(63,203 posts)former9thward
(31,986 posts)for the sole purpose of attacking Israeli civilians. The tunnels built by money and materials meant for Gaza infrastructure and stolen from the Gaza people for terrorist uses.
Orrex
(63,203 posts)Give me a hard number, please.
How does it stack up against the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of Palestian civilians slain in the past few weeks?
former9thward
(31,986 posts)Orrex
(63,203 posts)former9thward
(31,986 posts)How many German and Japanese citizens did Roosevelt and Truman "get to murder"?
Orrex
(63,203 posts)And if you think that Israel's decades-long oppression of Palestinians can be written off as "war," then there is no point in discussing things.
former9thward
(31,986 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)stranger81
(2,345 posts)None.
Nada.
Zilch.
Quite the existential threat, no?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)If my neighbor down the street had dug a tunnel into my backyard, I don't think shelling his house would really do much about the tunnels.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/kfc-smugglers-now-delivering-fast-food-through-gaza-tunnels-report-says/
former9thward
(31,986 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)The Soviets were able to deal with very sophisticated tunneling in Berlin without shelling the other side of the wall. And with 1950's technology. The North Koreans have a lot more resources that Gaza, and somehow can't figure out how to tunnel under the DMZ undetected.
The US regularly uses ground penetrating radar to find smuggling tunnels, and the perimeter around Gaza can easily be subject to a network of seismic monitors to detect tunnel activity.
You don't shut down a tunnel by shelling an apartment building, a power plant, etc,. Only in Gaza does aerial bombardment close a tunnel.
former9thward
(31,986 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)And you don't see them shelling buildings above ground to detect or close tunnels below ground.
former9thward
(31,986 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Closing tunnels by shelling buildings?
I see... your opinion of the efficacy of killing 1200 people over tunnels which have killed no one does not need "expert" support.
Why is the US not shelling Tijuana to shut down smuggling tunnels?
http://www.kcra.com/news/local-news/news-sacramento/4-sophisticated-drug-tunnels-found-on-border
More than 150 secret tunnels have been found along the border since 1990, the vast majority of them incomplete, according to U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
former9thward
(31,986 posts)The Mexican government is not building the tunnels and is not using them to carry on terrorist attacks against the U.S. Maybe you know different. I am not an expert on anything relating to tunnels unlike many who post here.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)But the identity and intent of someone constructing a tunnel has nothing to do with the technological problem of detecting and decommissioning a tunnel. Do I have a doctorate in electrical engineering and familiarity with underground sensing? Yes, I do, having done consulting work for a company which, in fact, makes equipment for locating underground utilities.
As asked above, what has been the death toll in Israel from "using them to carry on terrorist attacks".
former9thward
(31,986 posts)I have not been following the other deaths. Nice you are an expert in blowing up tunnels in the middle of a war.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)You might need an operative definition of "they":
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.605662
The Israel Defense Forces thwarted a mass infiltration attempt on Thursday, opening fire on 13 Palestinian militants who managed to enter Israel through a tunnel in the southern Gaza Strip early Thursday morning.
When the militants exited the tunnel onto Israeli territory, Israel Air Force crafts were clearly visible above them, and they rushed to turn back to Gaza. The IAF bombed the opening of the tunnel, on Israeli territory on the eastern side of the fence.
Mounting a significant invasion through a tunnel is an interesting proposition.
It would seem that once they come out of the tunnel, then the tunnel is fairly easy to locate and close.
You see, the business end of the tunnels are not in Gaza.
I am impressed with the logic of "it is necessary to destroy a power plant to close tunnels", but the operative principle seems to be "they have tunnels, therefore anything goes". Why not just use nuclear weapons on them?
In your mind, is there anything that would constitute "going too far" in response to these 13 Palestinian militants you are mourning?
former9thward
(31,986 posts)http://www.timesofisrael.com/as-israel-hunts-for-terror-tunnels-after-soldiers-killed-abbas-to-meet-hamas-chief-for-ceasefire-talks/
Five Israeli Soldiers Killed After Hamas Militants Sneak Through Tunnel
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/07/29/five-israeli-soldiers-killed-after-hamas-militants-sneak-through-tunnel/
But I did get the stories mixed up. Sorry, demolition expert.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Oh, you didn't have your facts straight. Quelle surprise.
Bombing apartment buildings and a power plant does not close tunnels, and that requires no "expertise" in anything to know.
Again, I ask, what would be "going too far" in response?
It would seem in each instance, the tunnel was found and closed without bombing a UN school anywhere.
But you aren't going to answer the question about proportionality, because you would be perfectly happy if every man, woman and child in Gaza were dead anyway.
You believe this is an appropriate response:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/11000115/Right-wing-Israelis-celebrate-the-deaths-of-Gazan-children.html
Right-wing Israelis celebrate the deaths of Gazan children
Video from a far-right Tel Aviv demonstration shows the crowd chanting, "there is no school tomorrow; there are no children left in Gaza"
That is disgusting behavior of which you approve.
former9thward
(31,986 posts)And I must have a picture of Hitler in my living room too, right, demolition expert?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I said nothing about Hitler. Germany never had a nuclear weapon. The US was the only one to use one, and I do not believe it was either appropriate or necessary.
See how easy that is?
There is no limit to what you would accept as retaliation against Gazans. None.
regnaD kciN
(26,044 posts)Normally, you don't destroy tunnels by bombing schools, hospitals, and U.N. refugee centers for days on end.
If Israel had really wanted to destroy the tunnels, they could have easily accomplished that in half the time without anywhere near as many deaths of noncombatants.
But that isn't what Israel is about. With the West Bank "pacified" by splitting it into every smaller enclaves, walled off from each other and from the prime land reserved for Israeli settlers, Gaza was the last contiguous block of land held as any form of "Palestinian territory." Smash that, and Palestine will never be, can never be more than a set of disconnected reservations or bantustans, while Israel can claim all the land for itself. That's the real agenda here, and why the Likudniks seized on the murder of three Israelis by a rogue group on the West Bank to crush the people of Gaza under its bootheel.
get the red out
(13,462 posts)They could have done it already.
hack89
(39,171 posts)do you think for a second that as Hamas built their underground network of tunnels they made any effort what so ever to avoid such places?
Why do you think it is easy to destroy concrete tunnels build 60 feet below a city? Just wondering how you would destroy them?
jwirr
(39,215 posts)A DUer yesterday put a cartoon on that showed a concrete truck filling the end of the tunnel. When a rat comes into the house we search out the hole and put metal over it. But I think there is more here than destroying the tunnels and that is why they are using a very deadly method of getting rid of them.
hack89
(39,171 posts)the last part of the tunnel to the surface is not dug until right before they are to be used. A days worth of digging and they are at the surface - in the meantime the tunnel can remain undetected for years if need be. Hamas is not stupid.
frylock
(34,825 posts)Orrex
(63,203 posts)In the past few weeks I've seen claimed many times that Hamas is using these tunnels to "infiltrate Israel" and kill Israeli civilians, but no one ever seems to come up with clear numbers for how often this happens.
But apparently it happens often enough to justify a weeks-long slaughter by land, see and air. Because Hamas is to blame or something.
frylock
(34,825 posts)and i'll bet everything I own that the same people decrying the "terror tunnels" were also suckered by the "rape room" and the fake incubator baby stories in Iraq.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I only know that number because a group of Hamas operatives filmed themselves popping up like gophers and attacking an Israeli military station, then scurrying back to their hole.
So far, no civilians that I'm aware of.
Orrex
(63,203 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)But let me answer with a question of my own. Why are you discounting the idea that the tunnels are not part of a long range plan to launch a massive surprise attack that would kill many Israelies and significantly change the geopolitical situation? The tunnels can only be used once. Why waste such a strategic weapon on a series of minor attacks that accomplish nothing of significance? Hamas needs and wants a major military victory. Killing handfuls of civilians is not what they want. Imagine if Hamas was able to attack and hold an Israeli town for a day or so - that is what they want.
frylock
(34,825 posts)what is the CURRENT Israeli civilian death toll? surely you have access to those numbers.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Care to share them with us? Care to address my post?
frylock
(34,825 posts)you know, aside from the bullshit Holocaust reference you posted the other day.
hack89
(39,171 posts)it is not like they are shy about their goals. So the logical conclusion is they invested massive manpower, money and time in these tunnels to gain a significant military advantage that would allow them to kill lots of Israelis. What other purpose could they possibly be for?
frylock
(34,825 posts)and what is that again?
hack89
(39,171 posts)they should stop shooting, withdraw and let Israel destroy the tunnels. Not complicated.
frylock
(34,825 posts)Israel started up with this battle, as has been pointed out to you on several occasions:
6) This current Gaza conflict began with Hamas rocket fire on 30 June 2014
Times of Israel: "Hamas operatives were behind a large volley of rockets which slammed into Israel Monday morning, the first time in years the Islamist group has directly challenged the Jewish state, according to Israeli defense officials.. The security sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity, assessed that Hamas had probably launched the barrage in revenge for an Israeli airstrike several hours earlier which killed one person and injured three more.. Hamas hasn't fired rockets into Israel since Operation Pillar of Defense ended in November 2012." The Nation: "During ten days of Operation Brother's Keeper in the West Bank , Israel arrested approximately 800 Palestinians without charge or trial, killed nine civilians and raided nearly 1,300 residential, commercial and public buildings. Its military operation targeted Hamas members released during the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange in 2011."
see you next time around.
Orrex
(63,203 posts)You declare outright that you don't know Hamas' long-term plans, but you advocate a strategy of pre-emptive civilian slaughter based on what you imagine Hamas might someday consider attempting.
At the same time, you deride Frylock for arguing against the unchecked massacre of Palestinian civilians because Frylock doesn't know Hamas' long-term plans.
Why do you think you're justified in arguing for a current-day campaign of murder on the basis of your own paranoid speculation, while you require hard evidence from those who argue against such murder?
hack89
(39,171 posts)the fundamental question that must always be addressed is what is your enemy capable of doing.
Pearl Harbor is a perfect example - the US expected war but dismissed the notion of a carrier attack on Pearl Harbor. In retrospect it was perfectly clear that Japan had the capability to attack Pearl Harbor and inflict significant damage.
So the question is simple - what would a network of 30 plus tunnels into Israel allow Hamas to do? And if that capability represents a significant threat then you have that mitigate that capability in some manner. Destroying the tunnels is the easiest solution since you know Hamas will never voluntarily give them up.
Orrex
(63,203 posts)How strong an invasion force do you think you can sneak into Israel when they're walking single-file with no head room?
No matter what you imagine Hamas might one day try to accomplish with its narrow and claustrophobic tunnels, the fact remains that Israel is murdering Palestinian civilians in broad daylight with no justification whatsoever. Everything that you say about Hamas' "intention" is guess work and does not justify Israel's ongoing campaign of slaugher.
hack89
(39,171 posts)don't you think a force of several thousand armed men could hold an Israeli town for a day or two? We are not talking about an invasion - we are talking about a massive terrorist attack to designed to kill thousands.
Hamas could stop the fighting in a heart beat. They won't so the battle continues. Talk to Hamas.
Don't you think a force of several thousand armed men could hold an Israeli town for a day or two?
And even if that preposterously unrealistic bomb-crazy wet dream were a potential reality, it still doesn't justify the campaign of preemptive slaughter of Palestinian civilians.
Israel is responsible for its own actions. Israel is responsible for the murder of Palestinian civilians. Israel can stop the fighting in a heartbeat. The only reason that they don't stop it is because they don't want to stop it.
hack89
(39,171 posts)they are religious fundamentalist - do you expect rational behavior from them?
As for the rest, you seem emotionally overwrought and invested in this to the point of being rude and insulting. I think I will move on. Have a good day.
Orrex
(63,203 posts)If you can stomach the murder of children but can't handle someone calling bullshit, then you really need to reconsider your priorities.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)then what are the Palestinians allowed to do to defend themselves?
Since the Israeli government and IDF are supported by the vast majority of Israeli voters, it appears that Israel has a target rich environment. There are lots of military institutions and government offices. Plus, since it seems that Israel has granted itself the right to obliterate entire neighborhoods, there are a lot of nice neighborhoods in Israel that could really be tempting to obliterate along with ambulances and future refugee centers, because the IDF are everywhere. When they are done, the Palestinians can then set up a brutal apartheid regime. That sounds about fair. All people are created equal, and all that stuff.
The Palestinians are a million times more justified in attacking Israel than the other way around, but strangely that is not how things work. The racist hypocrites wouldn't tolerate what they support against the Palestinians.
[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]
Tunnels everywhere:
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)cpwm17
(3,829 posts)It is Israel that is the aggressor and it is Israel that is committing mass-murder against a population it has highly oppressed for decades.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Several chances to accept, that would have kept the terrorist group 'Hamas' and their tunnel system attacking for years to come.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)Support for mass-murder is just fine with some people.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)cpwm17
(3,829 posts)What does that have to do with anything? That doesn't change anything Israel is doing to the Palestinians.
IronGate
(2,186 posts)accept the Palestinians?
Because they view them with deep suspicions.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)Many Palestinians don't want to self-cleans. Palestine is their home.
IronGate
(2,186 posts)and work towards a real peace treaty with Israel.
The terror org Hamas is the problem here, they refuse to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, they've vowed to destroy Israel, they've built sophisticated tunnels under the border into Israel, instead of using those materials to better the lives of the residents, so, what is Israel to do?
Sit there and take the constant rocket fire?
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)it doesn't change what Israel does to the Palestinians. The West Bank is currently relatively passive, even though they are highly oppressed under occupation with an apartheid government. That's not acceptable.
In the 1990's the Palestinians tried to make a permanent peace agreement, and they did recognize Israel. Israel rewarded them with a strengthening of the apartheid government and a massive expansion of "settlements." Israel refuses to recognize the Palestinians' right to exist, and they were mostly there first.
The IDF murders Palestinians with regularity, frequently children. Israel bulldozes Palestinian homes and way of life, and commits numerous other crimes against them. That makes Israel the aggressor. The siege against the Gaza Strip makes Israel the aggressor.
Israel initiated this massacre based of the false claim that Hamas murdered the settler kids in the West Bank. The Gaza Strip isn't the West Bank and the murders were a crime, not an act of war. (Palestine isn't a country so it can't conduct war against its occupiers. Wars are conducted by countries. Plus the occupation makes Israel the aggressor, by definition, and Israel's massacres and massive destruction of property constitute collective punishment against a captive population.)
International Law is on the Palestinians' side. I could ramble much more, etc....
IronGate
(2,186 posts)Early on Israel did accept a cease fire, the terror org Hamas refused to and kept firing rockets into Israel, Israel didn't respond for several hours hoping that the terror org Hamas would come to their senses and accept the cease fire, so, of course, Israel started shooting back again, rightly so.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)You're not rational when it comes to Israel.
IronGate
(2,186 posts)cpwm17
(3,829 posts)No matter how much evidence contradicts religious beliefs, many people can't be convinced they are wrong. Beliefs become hard wired. I was very much brought up on religion, but it didn't take, unlike my sisters.
Since, to me, it is extremely obvious that Israel is very much to blame for this conflict. But your brain wiring won't allow you to see that, for some reason. I don't understand it, based on my view.
Could I have some beliefs that are hard-wired that are irrational? Perhaps, but obviously I wouldn't recognize that fact.
IronGate
(2,186 posts)I don't understand your blaming Israel for the conflict, based on my views, which are just as legitimate as yours.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)probably a better long term outlook for the Pal people if Hamas infrastructure (tunnels and missile launchers they bought from North Korea, I found out) are totally gone, forever more.
Why better in the long term ?
Hamas could have accepted a ceasefire last month and then dragged out their hate campaigns and attacks for many, many more years.
candelista
(1,986 posts)Look at this one. I've never seen a drug smuggling tunnel from Mexico this good. Those concrete arches are really an enhancement.
http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/ChtLFIt.VjhDe.DUyFAu8w--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTYzOTtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz05NjA-/
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)building housing or schools for Gaza inhabitants. You've got to hand it to those Hamas leaders - they know what their people really want.
Orrex
(63,203 posts)That'll give Hamas an incentive to rebuild. Or it would, if Israel let them have access to building supplies.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)into construction of this vast underground network of terrorist tunnels instead of housing for the Palestinians? Hopefully the Israelis won't be so naive the next time.
Orrex
(63,203 posts)It might surprise you to learn that decades of oppressive and murderous occupation will tend to inspire dissatisfaction, which may in turn lead to actions not desired by the oppressive, murderous occupier.
IronGate
(2,186 posts)Just saying.
Orrex
(63,203 posts)Israel is killing Palestinians with industrial efficiency and precision. It is simply obscene to equate Israel's overwhelming military superiority, used to kill Palestinian civilians, is in any way equivalent or morally superior to Palestinian rockets with feeble guidance blind-fired into Israel and, to date, having little or no impact.
Collective punishment is a terrorist act, and that is unquestionable what Israel is doing.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)Orrex
(63,203 posts)But thousands of dead Palestinians are just fine with you? If, by your logic, Israel is justified in its campaign of murder because of its dead citizens, then surely Palestinians would be hundreds of times more justified in mounting a similar campaign.
Ah, the progressive mindset.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)for a country to be held hostage to a group totally dedicated to its extermination. The people of Gaza are the unfortunate recipients of the results from their first electing and now tolerating a terrorist group as their 'legitimate' representatives. No one is cheering the loss of life, but Hamas in engaged in a war against all Israelis - men, women and children, whom they have shown no reluctance to slaughter year after year after year. These tunnels are the latest iteration of Hamas' unceasing efforts to kill Israeli citizens and it is lunacy to suggest that the Israeli government turn a blind eye to them. Until the Palestinians themselves get fed up enough to rid themselves of Hamas I don't see any possibility of the situation changing.
Orrex
(63,203 posts)Do you truly believe that they are blameless, and that they should face no accountability for the thousands they've slain in alleged retaliation for a bunch of ineffectual rocket attacks?
Israel's cheerleaders go on and on about "the terrorist org Hamas" and its alleged desire to exterminate Israel. Even if that is exactly true as written, it still doesn't give Israel the right to kill thousands of Palestinians. It is utterly beyond me that anyone could excuse this appalling carnage, no matter what empty justifications they put forth.
Frankly, I find that disgusting. Even if every single violent act attributed to Hamas to date is literally true as claimed, it still falls far short of Israel's murderous campaign against Palestinian civilians.
The push to exonerate Israel for its many crimes is horrifying and inexcusable.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)Neither side is blameless. The policies of both parties are stupid and destructive and murderous.
Orrex
(63,203 posts)Though neither side is blameless, one side has killed a great many more civilians than the other.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)regardless of the circumstances, involves civilians being injured or killed. There will be time later to sort out charges and counter-charges of 'war crimes'. For the time being however the best way to deal with that is by ending the hostilities. For Israel, that will only be possible when they believe they have ended the grave threat that Hamas presently poses.
JudyM
(29,233 posts)IronGate
(2,186 posts)Think how much good that material and labor would've done if used for infrastructure instead of future terror attacks inside Israel.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)overall welfare of the poor souls that they 'represent'. Their only and oft-repeated goal is to ensure that Palestine is Jew-free from the Sea to the River. The rest is window-dressing for naive foreigners who believe they're actually dealing with 'statesmen'.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)One would think that Hamas, being completely irrational scatterbrained nutjobs whose entire reason for existing is eating Jewish babies or whatever, would have been using these things rather frequently once completed - they're obviously not the product of the last couple of days, after all. And since israel is just now finding hte extent of them, why hasn't hamas come pouring out of the undiscovered ones to wreak havoc on israeli civilians over the course of this war? Clearly the potential is there, so why aren't they using it?
IronGate
(2,186 posts)And how do you know they weren't saving those for a massive terror attack?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)What I do know is that the Gilad Shalit affair taught Hamas that a soldier - alive or dead - does more for their gain than any number of Israeli civilians slain.
Do you think hamas believes all the rockets they fire is going to do something? They keep track of this stuff same as anyone else would, they know the bulk of what they fire is shot down. But each time a rocket is shot down, Israel is out $23,000. Hamas is down $5 - sugar, quicklime, and one of the chunks of pipe all of Israel's bombing has dug up.
I think those 13 were going to go for a valuable target of some sort. Just like the ones in the video I mentioned upthread who targeted a military post (which I will not post for the graphic content it contains - look up "secret filming Hamas" on youtube if you want your stomach to lurch a bit.)
We're not looking at the Hamas of 2002 here, I don't think.
IronGate
(2,186 posts)I actually agree with everything you say here.
Hamas is not the Hamas of 2002, they've become much more media savvy, more sophisticated, and I will say this, Israel is losing the propaganda battle.
I'll take a look at those videos, after 20+ years in the Fire Service, not much turns my stomach anymore.
Thanks for the reasoned response.
stranger81
(2,345 posts)the next time Israel decides to "mow the lawn."
stranger81
(2,345 posts)the next time Israel decided to "mow the lawn."
Sounds like a good investment to me.
IronGate
(2,186 posts)Infrastructure that would still be there if the terror org Hamas would quit sending rockets into Israel or mounting terror attacks through those terror tunnels.
stranger81
(2,345 posts)Oh wait -- my bad -- they bomb Gaza like clockwork about every 2 years, no matter what.