Answering question on Israel, Bernie Sanders tells townhall hecklers to ‘shut up!’

[alp227]

Source: Washington Post

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) has little patience for being heckled.

The self-described “socialist,” often named as a liberal alternative to Hillary Clinton in 2016, fought with constituents over Israel and the deaths of Palestinian civilians in Gaza that escalated into an angry screaming match.

At a town hall meeting in Cabot, Vt. over the weekend, Sanders began to answer a question about the conflict by saying that Israel had “overreacted,” but that Hamas was firing missiles into Israel from “populated areas,” and later said the militant Palestinian Islamist group did not want Israel to exist.

Several people in the audience began screaming over each other at Sanders.

Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/in-the-loop/wp/2014/08/20/answering-question-on-israel-bernie-sanders-tells-townhall-hecklers-to-shut-up/

[Purveyor]

1. Progressives Have Wanted Sanders To Be More Forceful In Condemning Israel...

From the article...

Progressives have wanted Sanders to be more forceful in condemning Israel. Before Congress’ August recess, the Senate passed a resolution unanimously reaffirming its support for Israel. Sanders did not object, but he also did not sign on as a co-sponsor. As the Daily Beast writes, Israel puts left-wing Democrats like Sanders in a tough spot because their base can be critical of Israel, but not taking a pro-Israel position is politically risky.

[still_one]

4. Sanders doesn't play games. He says what he believes

[VanGoghRocks]

2. I know Socialists. Socialists are friends of mine. And Senator Sanders, you're no

Socialist. (A Social Democrat maybe, but most definitely not a 'Socialist.' Give me a friggin' break.)

[fasttense]

6. Sanders DOES NOT call himself a socialist.

He calls himself a Democratic Socialist. The article miss-represents what Sanders says and does.

I don't know why WaPo wants to trash Sanders but they are certainly NOT representing his opinions accurately.


Check out Richard Wolff for a real socialist. http://www.rdwolff.com/

[candelista]

9. That's like saying that Tom doesn't call himself a man.

Because he calls himself an old man. Democratic socialists (in the tradition of Michael Harrington, et al.,) are socialists.

[VanGoghRocks]

13. Show me where Sanders has ever advocated nationalizing the means of production (or even

one segment of the economy) and I'll readily concede him the title of 'Socialist.' As long as you believe the means of production is best left in the hands of the 1%, Senator, you're no Socialist.

[candelista]

14. If he's not a socialist....

...then he's not a democratic socialist.

I don't know what he advocates. I'm just talking about words.

And yes, a socialist has to believe in public ownership of the means of production.

That's also a fact about the use of words.

[VanGoghRocks]

15. I agree with you 100%. Sanders is what Marxists call a 'Social Democrat'. He

believes that capitalism can "work," provided one finds just the right mxiture of reforms.

No Socialist, Democratic or otherwise, believes such nonsense.

[candelista]

16. Here's what Bernie thinks "socialism" means:

“What it means is that we have a lot to learn from democratic socialist governments that have existed in countries like Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway, where all people have healthcare as a right,” Sanders explained when asked by O’Reilly what it means to be a socialist. ”Where higher education is free. Where they have strong childcare program. Where they don’t have the massive type of income and wealth inequality that we have in the United States of America.”

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/newswatch/031514

You're right. He's not a socialist. He's a bourgeois reformist. In other words, a left-liberal.

[fasttense]

24. A Democratic Socialist has a specific meaning.

And is frequently used to describe European socialism. It is an accurate description of a particular style of liberal philosophy with socialist type programs to help the poor.

Americans are so stupid about the word that they don't understand the variations of it.

[candelista]

30. Calling me "stupid" doesn't prove your point.

I think you mean social democracy, not "democratic socialism." Michael Harrington and DSOC were social democrats and so are many parties in Europe.

[fasttense]

33. no I don't

I did not call you stupid. I called Americans in general stupid about socialism. If I were on my laptop I would goggle for you but I can't at the moment. Check out Thom Hartmann for a definition of democratic socialism.

[fasttense]

23. Many socialist in europe are perfectly willing to let capitalism run a muck and

they still call themselves socialist. Just because you don't understand where the descriptive term comes from does not mean it is being used incorrectly.

[VanGoghRocks]

28. Sigh. A core principle of 'socialism' is a belief in the public ownership of the

means of production. Most socialists are willing to (or, probably, more accurately 'resigned to') let capitalism run amok. But if you think society is best served with the means of production in private hands, you're a capitalist, not a socialist.

The Europeans to whom you allude are mostly 'Social Democrats' (just like Sanders). They think capitalism can be tamed if one finds just the right mix of policy prescriptions and regulations. Bless their hearts but that IS NOT SOCIALISM.

[candelista]

31. Right. "Social democrat" is different from "democratic socialist."

Your definitions are right on.

[VanGoghRocks]

32. Thank you. I don't dislike Sanders or social democrats in general, but

words have meanings or otherwise we could all communicate adequately with guttural grunts.

I feel like I've been belaboring the point and so am going to STFU on this topic unless someone asks me a question directly.

[fasttense]

22. No it's not.

Democratic Socialist are like those democracies in Europe. They have some minor socialist type programs but they are happy to let capitalism run the economy. A straight up socialist despises capitalism and would try to turn the economy into a socialist economy.

[Iamthetruth]

11. Do you really think

A true socialist would get elected in this country?

[VanGoghRocks]

12. Well, Kshama Sawant of Socialist Alternative won a seat on

the Seattle City Council. Now I have not followed her career and positions closely enough to state whether she is a 'true Socialist.' But a prerequisite is the formation of a Socialist Party with national reach and a true 50-state strategy (sorry, Dr. Dean)

At the risk of engaging in the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy, I would say that any 'true Socialist' must endorse the public ownership of the means of production. Sanders has never done that, AFAIK, hence he cannot claim the label of 'Socialist.'

[Iamthetruth]

18. Nationally

We all know the views of one part of the coy try differ from the others. I like Sanders, he is one of a few that actually walk the walk. I may not agree with him on every issue but I respect the man but if a true socialist would never get elected nationally and that is a good thing.

[VanGoghRocks]

19. There is some word salad here which makes me suspect you are on a phone with

auto-correct.

Look, roughly 50% of the electorate fails to vote even in Presidential election years and even in so-called 'battleground states.' I think we are rightly entitled to ask why the 50% never bothers to vote. Could it be that their life experience tells them there's little or nothing in the choices to justify their taking the time and effort to vote?

Logic also says that the Republican Party as currently constituted should command no more than 5-10% of the vote, not the 40-50% it regularly receives. A vibrant and cohesive Socialist alternative would shift the battleground to where it really belongs: between bourgeois Democrats and Socialists (with Republicans relegated to fringe-rump status). I'll bet the 50% non-participation rate would drop dramatically, were such to transpire.

[Iamthetruth]

20. Sorry to disagree

The country is split as far as conservative vs Liberal now I'm not going to say I have a clue as to what makes up each side but I think it's safe to say that the 40% to 50% that could or would vote republican would never vote socialist.

You say the republican part only deserves 5% -10%, that may be the percentage of who is satisfied with them but a far larger percentage would never vote democrat in any form.

[fasttense]

25. And you would be wrong.

"Any 'true Socialist' must endorse the public ownership of the means of production."

If by that you mean that a government must own the means of production, I would disagree with you wholeheartedly. But if you mean that the workers who actually produce that product own the means of production I would agree with you.

[VanGoghRocks]

29. This is a distinction without a difference. If we say that 'society' owns the means of production,

then government might exercise control of that means on behalf of workers.

The point is that the output of the economy is 'socialized,' i.e., not left in the hands of private hands or the hands of oligarchs, but instead shared equally by all members of society.

[iamthebandfanman]

34. Well

Gooodness forbid that someone like Bernie help destroy the fear created around the world 'socialism'...
how ever could that be useful to other 'REAL' socialist.

Sounds like you should write a letter to the DSA (Democratic Socialist of America) and complain about them buddying up to him (which they have)..


Anyone here that thinks someone in this day and age, given the fear instilled in the American people about such things, can run for president based on the notion that workers should own the means of production (no matter how obviously great that might sound to you are me) are delusional.
Baby steps ya'll. Baby steps.

[Judi Lynn]

3. Good! n/t

[AzDar]

5. Bernie!!

[Plucketeer]

7. Good for Bernie!

It's WAY PAST time that lunacy was the loudest voice in the room.

[fbc]

8. from a self described "news source"

what is the reason for quotes around socialist?

[swilton]

10. Who benefits

by exposing this weakness of Sanders?

Although I happen to agree with the criticism that Sanders kowtows to Israel, the end result is a division of the far left and a benefit to the status quo.

[november3rd]

17. A Lot of Jews Feel Israel is Justifiably Defending Itself

Bernie is Jewish.

Israel purports to be a "Jewish state."

Unfortunately, the question of why Jews and Arabs can't live together in Palestine doesn't seem to have been seriously addressed since 1948.

Albert Einstein, a social Zionist, believed it was much more important for Jews to live in peace with their Palestinian "kinfolk" than to have a Jewish state.



The current Israeli government, media, and their American supporters generally don't know this. They identify strongly with Israel as a Jewish homeland, without knowing all the circumstances surrounding the displacement of the Arab population.

As Einstein presaged, it's become an US vs. THEM thing.

In 1947-1948 WE displaced THEM from over 400 towns and villages. That's still the problem, but few Americans know about it.

Whenever anybody tries to bring it up at a public meeting, they're made to look like bomb-throwers or anti-Semites.

For further reading, See Blumenthal, Max, Goliath; Nation Books, NY 2013 and Pappe, Ilan, The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, Oneworld Publications, 2nd ed. 2007

[ozone_man]

21. Great post!

I don't think that Bernie being Jewish colors his position on the issue that much, perhaps some, but all U.S. politicians, even Independents, have to be careful of positions on Israel. He has frustrated me sometimes on this issue, but I understand, I think. If only Einstein's plan was followed.

[handmade34]

26. awww...

my peeps ...so sad I'm on the road working and can't attend his town halls

[leftynyc]

27. Sen Sanders

is defending the position taken by the majority of Americans and the majority of Democrats. I don't see this as a problem but I expect the people expecting purity in politicians will have a throw-him-under-the-bus party.