NY Governor: Doctor Had 100.3 Temp, Not 103

[TomCADem]

Source: Associated Press

Cuomo made his comments on NBC's Today show Friday after being asked whether Dr. Craig Spencer acted responsibly, even though he rode the subway, bowled and rode a cab.

Spencer recently returned to the city after treating Ebola patients in West Africa.

The governor told CNN's New Day Spencer had a slight fever of 100.3 degrees when he sought help. Spencer's temperature was previously reported to have been 103 degrees.

Ebola patients are not contagious until symptomatic.

Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/ny-governor-ebola-doc-limited-26421298

---

This corrects reports yesterday that the Doctor had a temperature of 103, which suggested that he was further along then he originally was.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

1. Well, that's good news. I haven't followed this story.

thanks.

[azurnoir]

2. well I guess that could make a difference

thanks

[SCVDem]

3. We pause this freakout

until the patient gets to 103!

The media continues to go overboard. Even you Rachel!

Back away from the medical professional and make us a cocktail tonight!

[LisaL]

7. Media is not at fault here.

They reported what they were told.

"Health officials initially said that Dr. Spencer had a 103-degree fever when he reported his symptoms to authorities at around 11 a.m. on Thursday. But on Friday, health officials said that was incorrect and that Dr. Spencer reported having a 100.3-degree fever. They said the mistake was because of a transcription error."

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/24/nyregion/craig-spencer-is-tested-for-ebola-virus-at-bellevue-hospital-in-new-york-city.html

[LovingA2andMI]

8. Agree.....

And he was "infectious" from the time he developed a low-grade fever anywhere pass 98.0 or the normal temperature. In other words -- when he was bowling, taking clothes to the cleaners, hopping subways and jumping in a uber.

Also, I'm about sick and tired of the media now jumping on the narrative we can't question as the general public Dr. Spencer's actions CONSIDERING he should have practiced SELF-ISOLATION practices. If health care workers can't do this, it is time for FORCED-ISOLATION -- PERIOD!


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5708228

[Demit]

10. And being a doctor, he probably knew he wouldn't be spewing blood or vomit all over

his bowling shoes or the subway seat.

Being a doctor, he was probably familiar with what his normal temperature range was. He probably had a lower temperature the night before the next morning, when his temp was 100.3. And being a doctor, he knew that temps usually are higher at night.

But OMG OMG OMG! He should have been more considerate of how it would LOOK to lay people and what WE think he should have done!!

[FBaggins]

14. That overstates it

The patient gets sicker as the virus multiplies in his system - and the degree of infectiousness grows along with the severity of the symptoms. 100.3 in the morning does not imply that he was particularly infectious the night before (if at all). Also... since that was his first symptom, it's fair to assume that he wasn't sneezing or vomiting on other passengers or bowlers.

from the time he developed a low-grade fever anywhere pass 98.0 or the normal temperature.

A low-grade fever starts around 100 degrees... not 98.

If the 103-degree report had been accurate, it would have been reasonable to assume that he might have had a lower fever the night before, but 100.3 implies that he acted correctly.

he should have practiced SELF-ISOLATION practices

That's simply incorrect. There is no point in having healthcare works stay in isolation for weeks if there isn't a reason to think that they might be infected.

[LovingA2andMI]

17. Not true....

Nurse Amber Vinson had a low grade fever of 99.5 at the time she was infectious......

"Vinson took a Frontier Airlines plane from Dallas to Cleveland Oct. 10. Three days later, she returned to Dallas on another Frontier Airlines flight. Because of a slightly elevated temperature – 99.5 degrees –she reported the condition before boarding, but it fell below the 100.4 reading for a fever, so she was allowed to board. A fever is one of the symptoms of Ebola, along with diarrhea, vomiting and abdominal pain.

Vinson arrived at Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital Tuesday morning with a fever and was diagnosed with Ebola in the early hours of Wednesday. She was relocated to Emory University Hospital's isolation unit in Atlanta Wednesday night."

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/ebola-nurse-nina-pham-fair-condition-trip-dallas/story?id=26266763

And just because to date Vinson has not cross infected anyone yet (as they are not outside of the 21 day infectious period fully) does not mean at the time she developed the 99.5 degree LOW GRADE FEVER she was not infectious. We have no idea what was Spencer's fever rate on October 23 while he was hopping subways, ubers, going bowling, eating at a public place and dropping off clothes at a cleaners. However, we do know, he was "Feeling Ill" October 23.

There is more than a strong probability Spencer was infectious on October 23, just like Vinson on October 14. It is time to stop covering for these HEALTH CARE WORKERS (VINSON and SPENCER) and tell the truth. They did not practice Self-Isolation and put others in the public at risk, Period!

The only healthcare worker that did the right thing with Self-Isolation is Nurse Nina Pham. Thank you Nurse Pham!

[FBaggins]

20. Sorry... you don't get to make up your own facts

Nurse Amber Vinson had a low grade fever of 99.5 at the time she was infectious......

You then follow that up with a quote that in no way demonstrates that she was infectious at the time.

does not mean at the time she developed the 99.5 degree LOW GRADE FEVER she was not infectious.

You just did it again. The source you cite makes clear the difference between a slightly elevated temperature and a low-grade fever. 99.5 does not qualify as a low-grade fever (or a fever at all).

There is more than a strong probability Spencer was infectious on October 23, just like Vinson on October 14.

Sorry... that's circular reasoning. You haven't established that Vinson was infectious either.

They did not practice Self-Isolation

Nor do any of the experts think that they should. There is no reason for a medical professional who takes the appropriate precautions (gear/etc) - and who has no reason to think that he's been in contact with the virus - to do anything more than self-monitor.

[LovingA2andMI]

22. Quick question....

If Amber Vinson was not infectious PERIOD after having the low grade fever of 99.5 degrees before hopping on the first plane towards Cleveland, why did she develop Ebola at all?

Inquiring minds can't wait to see how ineffectively you will try and fail to spin this answer.....

[FBaggins]

24. Quick answer

If Amber Vinson was not infectious PERIOD after having the low grade fever of 99.5 degrees on before hopping on the first plane towards Cleveland, why did she develop Ebola at all?

Inquiring minds will recognize the logical error in your question. It implies that anyone who has been infected is infectious right away... when the scientists tell us that isn't the case.

People who get Ebola go through an incubation period during which time they are not contagious.

[LovingA2andMI]

27. Ineffective spin...

She was Ill in Cleveland FACT:

"This nurse, Nurse Vinson, did in fact call the CDC several times before taking that flight and said she has a temperature, a fever of 99.5, and the person at the CDC looked at a chart and because her temperature wasn’t 100.4 or higher she didn’t officially fall into the category of high risk,” said Dr. LaPook on the CBS Evening News.

Vinson first reported a fever to the hospital on Tuesday (Oct. 14) and was isolated within 90 minutes, according to officials. She did not exhibit symptoms while on the Monday flight, according to crew members. However, the CDC says passenger notification is needed as an “extra level of safety” due to the proximity in time between the flight and the first reported symptoms.

“Those who have exposures to Ebola, she should not have traveled on a commercial airline,” said Dr. Frieden. “The CDC guidance in this setting outlines the need for controlled movement. That can include a charter plane; that can include a car; but it does not include public transport. We will from this moment forward ensure that no other individual who is being monitored for exposure undergoes travel in any way other than controlled movement.”

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2014/10/15/ebola-patient-traveled-day-before-diagnosis/

So why did Dr. Frieden of the CDC believe those with an exposure to Ebola should not travel using public transport in anyway --- before or after developing a low grade fever? Clearly it is to be assume Dr. Frieden meant before the exposed individual has reached the 21 day Ebola incubation period also, correct?

The only reason this would make sense is....a CLEAR POSSIBILITY exist that a person with an exposure to an Ebola patient, slightly before or after developing a low grade fever of 99.5 degree or higher, COULD INDEED be infectious and rather than take a chance -- it is better to air on the side of caution and protecting the public at large.

With that, this useless back and forth with you is DONE|.

[FBaggins]

29. Nope. You're just immune to correction

She was Ill in Cleveland FACT:

She was obviously ill days earlier... that doesn't mean that she was contagious.

So why did Dr. Frieden of the CDC believe those with an exposure to Ebola should not travel using public transport in anyway

Just as you were confused about what constitutes a fever and when a person is supposedly infectious... you now apparently have trouble understanding what constitutes "exposure". Dr. Friedan also said "that the nurse had had 'extensive contact' with Duncan, including while he was vomiting and had diarrhea." and we've learned that the hospital's proceedures were not correct (and don't match what doctors in Africa are doing.

IOW, he didn't have a reason to believe that he had been exposed.



With that, this useless back and forth with you is DONE|.

I've got news for you. You were "done" the moment you decided to pretend that you were in a better position to dictate procedures than the experts.

Let's call in one of those experts:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/10/24/how-difficult-is-it-to-catch-ebola-on-the-subway/

If there’s anyone who understands Ebola — who has studied the virus both under a microscope and in Ebola-ravaged patients — it’s Peter Piot. As a 27-year-old researcher, he discovered the disease in 1976 and today leads the renowned London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. He has a bit of advice: Don’t panic about the subway. He wouldn’t.

Cases of Ebola arriving in the United States or Europe, he told Agence France-Presse in late July, won’t “give rise to a major epidemic. Spreading in the population here, I’m not that worried about it.” He added: “I wouldn’t be worried to sit next to someone with Ebola virus on the tube as long as they don’t vomit on you or something. This is an infection that requires very close contact.”

According to health officials, Craig Spencer, the infected doctor who traveled the A,L and 1 subway lines, was not yet symptomatic or feverish while in transit on Wednesday. This is very important, as Piot mentioned. For Ebola is highly infectious, but difficult to catch, even in an enclosed environment like a train or plane.

[Darb]

32. What is the motive

behind your persistence over exact temperatures? If you are angry with the Dr. for leaving his home, then just say it. If otherwise, I'd like to hear that too. But to me it seems you are being a bit........panicy. Not helpful, IMHO.

[LovingA2andMI]

34. What's the deal with...

And of these "Mystery" low reply or time on DU count posters.....posters in defense of Dr. Craig Spencer, questioning other DUers on their questions about Dr Spencer's actions? The timing of these instant posters is indeed interesting.....note to self....

[Darb]

35. You have no idea how long I have been around DU

So please do not pretend to, thank you very much. And FYI, 800 plus posts ain't that goddamn many. As for your motive, I'll just take that as a yes, you are pissed at the Doc for going bowling, got it.

[LovingA2andMI]

36. "You have no idea how long I've been around DU"

"Profile Information Member since: Thu Oct 9, 2014, 08:34 PM Number of posts: 19".

Next.....moving on. Not worth the time, energy, DU length or post count.....Note to self.

[Darb]

37. Brilliant. You got me!

One can be around DU without having 50,000 posts or having signed up as a member, genius, it's called "lurking". Glad to hear that you are going away, because you, my furry friend, are much like a herd animal. And very little fun to converse with.

See ya, try not to yell FIRE!

Thanks in advance.

[karynnj]

40. What part of monitoring his temperature 2 times a day do you not get?

Not to mention 98.0 is not a low grade fever - given that 98.6 is usually stated as the average normal temperature. At least look up what normal is before questioning that a medical doctor did not know as much as you do.

Not to mention, the guideline was for self monitoring, which he did - NOT self isolation.

[In_The_Wind]

4. Thanks for the correction of misinformation given by news broadcast..

[still_one]

5. If there is one thing that is certain is that the media continues to do subpar job. It is becoming

the norm that most of the MSM is inaccurate in their reporting. From WMDs in Iraq to how the SC voted down the ACA, the media is a disgrace, and has been so for quite some time

[LisaL]

6. You can't blame the media for this.

103 is what they were told by health officials.

[still_one]

11. didn't know that, but it also points to another problem that has been going on since the Texas Ebola

cases, health officials are not getting their story or facts straight and with a situation like this, where the press is anxious to jump upon anything to create a "panic headline", the health community should be extremely certain they have accurate information before making it public. There is no excuse to report 103 instead of 100.3

[ffr]

9. What is One-hundred and three?

The "AND" denotes the decimal point. A lot of stupid people, ones who probably have never written a check out, interchange the meanings of numbers in this way.

It's One-hundred "AND" three, means 100.3.

Whereas One-hundred three means 103. If you want to think of it another way, the "AND" no/100ths is implied after the three.

[still_one]

12. Sorry, it is "one hundred point 3", if that is what you are reporting. There is no scientist who

will use "and" in the context you just described

[FBaggins]

15. They certainly wouldn't say "and" for anything but the decimal point.

Not that scientists would be taking the temperature.

[still_one]

16. temperature readings are done all the time across all scientific disciplines. The "point" is

explicitly used, "and" is ambiguous, and when I refer to scientific disciplines I also refer to medical personal.

Whenever a nurse takes a temperature, I have NEVER heard them say "and" instead of "point"

In fact if you tell someone to tune to a radio station which is 100.3, you say "100 point three", or "100 dot three". If you say "100 and three", you are going to get 103

[FBaggins]

18. The point (pun intended) here is that very fact...

... that "and" is ambiguous.

Heck... it isn't really ambiguous... it's simply wrong for numerical use for anything but the decimal point (or implied addition).

Whenever a nurse takes a temperature, I have NEVER heard them say "and" instead of "point"

And yet... someone presumably said "and". The question is how that should have been taken.

If you say "100 and three", you are going to get 103

If you say 100 and three for 103... then you're going to get looks from people wondering whether you should have passed 4th grade.

[still_one]

23. Sorry, I was on a different wave length. Appreciate your "point"

[ffr]

39. If you say "100 and three", you are going to get "100.3"

Because that's the way it's written. You can substitute point. That's fine. But "and" is the decimal place, as in one-hundred and three == 100 + 3/100ths.

Or do you also put in the word point when writing checks?

Pay the amount of: One-hundred point three?

How much is that? You're going to confuse a lot of people.

[still_one]

47. since 99% say dot or point, you can go against the norm if you want, but

Last edited Fri Oct 24, 2014, 05:04 PM - Edit history (2)

I sure don't want you in the lab with me

If one uses and then it would be 100 and three tenth. the 3/10 MUST be spelled out.

Join the real world

[ffr]

50. I'd use point in that context too.

I was pointing out how people often use "AND" incorrectly, when saying something like 103, a whole number, which is spoken as one-hundred three. If you use "AND" you mean to add the decimal place and the number is assumed to be a fraction of a whole number, so one-hundred AND three is 100.3.

So if it's hot out and you say it's one-hundred and eight degrees outside, most of us will interpret it as 100.8 degrees (how does he know it's 0.8 degrees warmer than 100° and why even say "and" eight, just say it's one-hundred one degrees? Certainly, we'd accept 101 instead of 100.8). But when we translate for what you meant, we'll figure that what you meant to say was one-hundred eight, for 108°.

You know this is true because you don't also say one-hundred and seventy-seven when you say the whole number 177, you just say one-hundred seventy-seven. Just as you would write it out on paper. The reason you don't say "AND" is because it denotes the decimal place.

[Demit]

13. Except we usually express it as point-something.

As in, 98 point six. When I had pneumonia years ago, I had a temp of 103, which I said out loud as one hundred and three. When it went a little higher, I said one oh three point one.

(If it kept going up, I was instructed to go to the emergency room stat.)

[Kelvin Mace]

21. I have been around medical professionals all my life

nurses, med tech, EMT, doctors, pharmacists, surgeons, etc, and I have never heard "and" used in this context. A 100.3 temp would be stated as "one hundred point three".

[NoGOPZone]

43. Not according to Foreigner

[VWolf]

44. How do you know Foreigner didn't mean 100.3 as well?

[seveneyes]

19. What a relief that the infected can walk around undected now

I guess we can just square root this thing back into its box.

[Aristus]

25. There are so many strange, weird and ludicrous ways in which people misinterpret the term 'fever'.

I've had patients come in to the clinic complaining of 'fever', and then we take their temperature, and it's 99.2F. "Well, my temperature runs low, so 99.2 is a fever for me."

"Well, no it's not; fever is fever for everyone. It has an actual medical definition. It's not a relative thing."

I've had people disagree with me even on that:

"I KNOW MY BODY!!!"

...okay...

[TomCADem]

28. True, In Texas They Would Just Hand Him...

...a Tylenol.

[Sunlei]

30. Not sure if we should trust exposed persons to take & report their own temps.

Auto report through an app. will catch the rising temp. much sooner.

[karynnj]

41. Are you questioning their ability to report a temperature or their honesty?

The fact is that on the issue of honesty, IF you are in the circumstance where you are self monitoring, it is COMPLETELY in your vested interest to very carefully monitor your temperature. (Possibly MORE frequently than required)

What is completely understood here is that IF you were indeed infected, your survival could depend on very early treatment. While this is true for everyone, it would be far more true of a doctor, who specialty this is!

(In fact, his temperature might have been normal when he woke in the morning -- and he retook it shortly before 11 AM and then started to make the calls that ended with him safely in the hospital.

[Sunlei]

46. Both. I understand it's in their own best interest but I think this virus is to dangerous to

allow 'self reporting'. All it will take is one person makes a stupid mistake (or even on purpose) & lots of people could be infected.

[CullenBohannon]

31. If they refuse to

stop commercial flights, there should at least be a mandatory 21 day quarantine for those coming from the hotzone. Temperature taking is not enough.

[Darb]

33. Could you expound on the logistics of that, please?

Just wondering how that would play out. Like, for instance, quarantine where?

[CullenBohannon]

48. airports, gov't facilities

Other countries are taking better preventive measures. Not reason we can't.

[karynnj]

42. There are no direct flights - Are you arguing they stop all international flights?

What about flights out of Texas, Ohio and NY at this point? Panic much?

At this point, there is absolutely no sign that this has led to any additional cases. It is most likely that it won't -- there are only 4 people thought to have possibly had sufficient contact -- and this was to an earlier stage than the stage that the 48 people (all now negative) exposed to Duncan.

[CullenBohannon]

49. Maybe

stop issuing visas to people coming from the three affected West African countries. We can still send doctors, military but stop civilians from traveling back and forth.

[Stellar]

38. Geez, I wondered if they had made changes as to what was really important.

The temperature of an Ebola suspect had to remain well UNDER 103 and 103 was Thomas Eric Duncans' temperature when he came back to that hospital in Texas before he died.

[progressoid]

45. Quarantine the whole state!

[LynneSin]

51. That's happened to me

I'll say I have a temp of 100.6 but the way it comes out it sounds like 106.