Israel bars German author over poem critical of its nuclear arsenal
Source: McClatchy
JERUSALEM Israel's interior minister declared the celebrated German author Gunter Grass "persona non grata" on Sunday, barring his entry to the country, in response to a new poem in which the Nobel laureate called Israel's undeclared nuclear arsenal a threat to world peace.
<snip>
Grass's poem, titled "What Must Be Said," was published in the German newspaper Suddeutsche Zeitung, provoking Israeli condemnations and criticism in Germany, where the memory of the Holocaust constrains public debate about Israel and infuses the complex relationship between the two countries.
<snip>
The Israeli Embassy in Berlin branded Grass's poem anti-Semitic, saying that its publication before the Jewish Passover holiday, "belongs to European tradition to accuse the Jews of ritual murder before the Passover celebration."
German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle wrote in a commentary Sunday in the Bild am Sonntag newspaper that "putting Israel and Iran on the same moral level is...absurd," adding that Germany has an "historic responsibility" toward Israel.
<snip>
Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2012/04/08/3542989/israel-bars-german-author-over.html
bananas
(27,509 posts)JerseyMac
(12 posts)Just that? Really? How about a Nobel Prize Winner in Literature? Writer of "The Tin Drum"?
Old Union Guy
(738 posts)tabasco
(22,974 posts)Why did you post a falsehood?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)so that does qualify as life long I guess along with every other German who served in Hitlers army life long Nazi's the lot of them, eh?
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Robeysays
(673 posts)the shoe hit the dog the whelps. Watch the flame war and censorship begin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
Israel is just having a hard time coming to terms with being a rouge nation with a failed and rather un-American ideological philosophy. Their reign of terror will end eventually, just like the nazi's did, when the world gets sick of appeasement.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)I'd call them a lifelong member of Irgun.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)He's just against an Israeli attack on Iran.
That doesn't equate to wanting to finish the Holocaust.
Response to Ken Burch (Reply #34)
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Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Care to back it up?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Grass has spent seventy years using his talent as a writer to CONFRONT what Germany did in the Nazi era...what he did for one year(almost certainly as a conscript, and, as far as I know, never seeing combat)does not negate his lifelong commitment to opposing fascism and all forms of bigotry.
Tom Ripley
(4,945 posts)cstanleytech
(26,273 posts)any other nation can.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)But that doesn't mean that slanders have to remain unchallenged.
Gunter Grass is NOT a Nazi.
The sick part of all this is...if Grass was SUPPORTING Israel missile strikes on Iran, they'd probably cut him a break for much, much worse.
It's disgusting how obsessed the Israeli government is with attacking Iran-whether or not such an attack would actually serve ANY positive purpose.
Bibi needs to give this shit a rest.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)But the frankly anti-semitic filth he is spewing via this poem doesn't help that argument.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Last edited Tue Apr 10, 2012, 09:08 PM - Edit history (1)
The poem criticizes Netanyahu's unjustified demands for missile strikes on Iran, missile strikes that would have to kill huge numbers of innocent Iranian civilians. That does NOT equate to antisemitism
It is universally agreed that comments about the Israeli government are not the same as expressions of hatred towards Jews. Gunter Grass is not an antisemite.
And the State of Israel is not the same as "The Jews", nor does it have any right to claim to speak for every Jewish person in the world. It's always been demagogic for spokespersons for the Israeli government to blur the line on that point.
cstanleytech
(26,273 posts)do I care what they said about him because in the end its still their country and they can deny entry for whatever reason to someone.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Last edited Tue Apr 10, 2012, 09:39 PM - Edit history (1)
Fine, they can keep him out...but the slander doesn't remain unchallenged.
Gunter Grass is not a Nazi...and nothing in that poem(a poem I wouldn't have written and that Grass himself now says he should have rewritten to make it specific to Netanyahu and his insane call for war) was antisemitic.
Israel is just another country. It is not synonymous with an entire people or an entire religion.
Response to Ken Burch (Reply #23)
Post removed
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Last edited Sun Apr 15, 2012, 02:04 PM - Edit history (1)
Uh...say WHAT?
(btw, Grass isn't promoting any such thing, either. He just wants to avoid the mass murder of innocent Iranian civilians).
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)He's spent every year since 1945 proving it.
He was only in their army as a conscript-same as with Helmut Schmidt and Helmut Kohl-and Pope Ratzi-if THEY weren't obligated to desert to prove that they weren't anti-Nazi, Grass wasn't either. The fact is, the only PURELY anti-Nazi figure in post-World War II West Germany was Willy Brandt-and OUR country's leaders hated him like poison.
You don't have to support an Israeli strike on Tehran to prove you're not an antisemite-especially since we all know such a strike wouldn't actually help anything.
LeftishBrit
(41,205 posts)He did serve in the SS as a teenager; but he most certainly was not a lifelong Nazi and was very critical of his country's Nazi past.
And I post as someone who has never been an enormous fan of Grass' work (not for political reasons; just could never get into it), and considers this latest poem to be dire and his current behaviour over-the-top. But let's not use 'Nazi' slurs.
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)Can we include that as well?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Trillo
(9,154 posts)That there are global "blacklists", and if you're on one you'll never be published by any group that will see to it you get a royalty check every month?
Does Isreal represent a metaphorical facet that all humans are subjected to? Is the Palestine/Isreal issue either merely or also a metaphor for the economic war waged against the poor everywhere?
provis99
(13,062 posts)Riftaxe
(2,693 posts)from entering Israel, would be a more accurate and concise headline.
Gee, I wonder why Israel is not in such a rush to embrace him.
Robeysays
(673 posts)1948 is closer than 1944.
nice try with the Ad Hominin, you failed to address the debate and personally attacked the source. The issue here is the Israeli Nuclear arsenal, it's relative secrecy and the lengths at which the state tries to appear innocent. There fore you have lost the syllogy. and the point is scored to the OP.
AKA You fail.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Secondly, the Irgun was a paramilitary group that was separate from the IDF. It is like you're saying all the members of the columbian military should be banned as being members of paramilitary death squads. Irgun was absorbed by the IDF, but only after they committed what most people would consider their warcrimes. Even then if you were to ban people for such a reason, you should probably restrict it to just people who actually fought in Irgun.
Irgun actually fought with the IDF in at least one incident.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altalena_Affair
You're the one who is committing the logical fail here.
provis99
(13,062 posts)they barred him for criticizing Israel's nuclear weapons stash.
Response to provis99 (Reply #14)
Post removed
WHEN CRABS ROAR
(3,813 posts)It's all of them, pure and simple. If not, we will all suffer the outcome in the future.
cstanleytech
(26,273 posts)no_hypocrisy
(46,058 posts)Malikshah
(4,818 posts)Interesting logic games being played here.
And by interesting, I mean obfuscation.
Ah, me. C'est la vie.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)if we scream Nazi loud enough and long enough then we can avoid discussing what the poem was actually about
WHEN CRABS ROAR
(3,813 posts)starfox172
(33 posts)XemaSab
(60,212 posts)between the Jewish people (who I have nothing but love and affection for) and the Israeli government (who I don't much care for).
It's sort of like back in the day when W was resident there was a period of time where saying anything negative about W or his foreign policy was tantamount to wiping one's ass with the American flag. We seem to have moved past that as a country though, but in Israel that mentality doesn't seem to be going anywhere.
saras
(6,670 posts)and by the "nazi" logic, all American veterans are psycho killers, right?
But it doesn't reflect kindly upon even those of us who opposed Bush when we are part of a country that raised him to power. In a democratic nation where governments are elected, the people who elect them have to bear some share of the blame for their governments' excesses.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)I'm sorry, but being a former SS member makes you uniquely unqualified to try and fire broadsides at the Jewish people or the Jewish state of Israel.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)would that be the same as antisemitism? if not then explain please
Kurska
(5,739 posts)PavePusher
(15,374 posts)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democratic_Party_of_Germany
Doesn't sound like a dedicated Nazi to me. YMMV.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)You're missing the part where he volunteered to enter a combat position.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)Check some German History. Lots of patriotic Germans weren't Nazi's and volunteered for the military.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)First it is "he never volunteered", now it is "well he volunteered, but he was just a patriotic German".
Maybe just maybe volunteering for the Nazi's warmachine isn't something that should be looked upon proudly.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)I said he did not volunteer for the SS.
Maybe, just maybe, the man of 2012 isn't the youth of 1944.
And maybe, just maybe, you could come up with some evidence supporting your claim of being a Nazi, instead of saying that being drafted in wartime was an indicator of anything other than being drafted in wartime.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Nazi through and through.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)I did not see evidence in any of my cites that he was a Hitler Youth member. And being anti-Nuclear Weapons is not at all the same as being anti-semitic.
Cites, please.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Website saying he was
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israeli-writers-call-on-international-literary-community-to-rebuke-gunter-grass-1.423465
News paper saying the same
"the Hebrew Writers Association said in a public statement on Monday, referring to Grass' days as a member of the Hitler youth and Nazi SS. "Grass should clean his clothes and his past, express remorse for the days when he served in the Nazi Death Army, because his terrible statement cast a dark shadow over all of his writings."
And yes he is, I've read his poem and it seems anti-semitic to me. Anti-semitism is much harder to define and a judgement call, I don't know how I can prove that to you.
You have consistently challenged me on the facts only for my assertions to be proven correct with sources.
reorg
(3,317 posts)To label him anti-semitic is on the same level as calling Obama a muslim extremist.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Tom Ripley
(4,945 posts)okay...
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Because anti-semitism doesn't keep membership rolls and as far as I know doesn't collect dues, for instance.
The only way you can prove someone is an anti-semite, without them claiming to be it, is demonstrate anti-jewish bias in their statements. Again that ultimately comes down to what someone sees or is willing to see.
Example, people closing their eyes to the ex-waffen SS member who calls Israel the world's greatest threat to peace.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)with no link or reference to scholarly research.... doth not convincing evidence make.
I'll note that belonging to the Hitler Youth was the German equivalent of the U.S./British Boy Scouts (although far more government-sanctioned and supported) and not a very reliable indicator of future political affiliation.
More noteably, you haven't been able to reference any post-war Nazi ties.
Quite frankly, your writing so far would fail any high school class I was ever in. Good luck with that.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)He did not originally volunteer, his entire age-group was drafted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftwaffenhelfer
He later volunteered for the navy, at a time when anyone who didn't volunteer, was going to be drafted anyway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCnter_Grass
The 10th SS Panzer Division doesn't seem to have been connected to any atrocities, despite your pointed insinuation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10th_SS_Panzer_Division_Frundsberg
And note that here in para. 4, it was recognized that draftees in SS units held an exemption from assumption of war crimes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen_SS
I'm really not sure how you think a not-quite-adult had much choice to NOT serve his country in such a war. Merely being on the wrong side is no particular indicator of political beliefs (did you miss the part of history where most Germans youths of that generation were pretty thouroughly indoctrinated and brain-washed without giving their permission?), or commision of any crimes or atrocities.
If you have any evidence that he was ever a commited National Socialist before or after the breaking of the Party during/after the war, please provide it now.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)Kurska
(5,739 posts)Mostly they buillt fortifications and manned anti-aircraft guns.
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)I've read The Rat and The Flounder. The really good.
BlueMTexpat
(15,365 posts)you meant ONE book!
Fortunately, the Google cleared things up for me.
The Flounder http://www.amazon.com/Flounder-Helen-Kurt-Wolff-Book/dp/0156319357
The Rat http://www.amazon.com/The-Rat-Gunter-Grass/dp/015675830X/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b
There are plenty of Israelis who believe that their government has overreacted. See, e.g., http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/israel-has-reacted-with-hysteria-over-gunter-grass-1.423312
From the article:
...
The emotions can be understood, but it's hard to accept the overreaction. When the interior minister says, "If Gunter Grass wants to continue to distribute his false and distorted works, I suggest he do so from Iran, where he'll find an appreciative audience," he doesn't even detect the irony in his words. Because it's precisely his decision not to let Grass enter Israel because of a poem he wrote that is characteristic of dark regimes like those in Iran or North Korea.
The combination of declarations against Israel and a past as a Nazi soldier is an explosive combination that invites sharp reactions. But while Benjamin Netanyahu's remark describing Grass' work as "ignorant and shameful declarations that any fair person in the world must condemn" can be accepted as part of the public debate, Yishai's use of his governmental authority is not legitimate. Any protest should be expressed within the democratic-liberal framework, which allows every person to express his views - provocative though they may be.
...
JohnyCanuck
(9,922 posts)It's starting to dawn on me how important Gunter Grass's poem is. The naysayers predictably took their first loud shots against it (and him), that's to be expected. But the pushback has hardly begun and what remains unclear is the overall reaction of the public both within German society and internationally.
Commenter LeaNder alerted us to this prescient article in Spiegel Online by influential German columnist and political analyst Jakob Augstein (check out his bio, no slouch), who nails it in his article Why We Need an Open Debate on Israel.
snip
Augstein writes "the Netanyahu administration has the entire world holding its breath" and "Israel has thrust an ultimatum on the world". How many people feel like this? And who is speaking for us?
snip
Something tells me Grass's poem could be the gift that keeps on giving. Open the floodgates and let the real conversation begin. Let's hope Jakob Augstein is right and Grass's poem marks a rupture, allowing more of us to express ourselves moving forward.
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/04/israels-policy-endangers-world-peace-jakob-augstein-and-gideon-levy-have-gunter-grasss-back.html
saras
(6,670 posts)Kurska
(5,739 posts)RZM
(8,556 posts)The main criticism of Grass' military record is not so much that he served in the German army, but that he waited until a few years ago to tell everybody.
His long career and his status as the unofficial 'conscience of postwar West Germany' shows that he most definitely was not much of a Nazi.
Bodhi BloodWave
(2,346 posts)his short time in the german army IS who he truly is and this poem proves it
Whatever he has done AFTER the war was just a cover and false identity he made for himself until he could fire of this broadside of a destructive poem
Perfectly logical
and obviously i was totally sarcastic above, but there seems to be some who believes some variety of the above
RZM
(8,556 posts)He's a liberal. Lots of liberals aren't big fans of Israeli policies or nuclear weapons (though some bizarrely support Iran getting them). It makes sense that combining Israel and nuclear weapons would lead to condemnation from a liberal.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)He claimed that Israel wants to wipe out the Iranian people and is the world's greatest threat to peace.
If he has disguised himself as a liberal previously, I'm glad his shame is out in the public now.
RZM
(8,556 posts)The idea that Israel is bad and a threat to peace is mostly a left-wing argument in the West. You see it here all the time.
I don't agree with the assertion, but I do think plenty of liberals hold that belief.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)they do not belong on a progressive discussion board.
RZM
(8,556 posts)But the second is quite common. Some people believe the exact opposite - that you're not really a progressive unless you strongly oppose Israel.
reorg
(3,317 posts)please read his statements before you - perhaps unwittingly - spread untruths.
The main thrust of his "poem" goes against the German government which a few months ago has approved the export to Israel of yet another submarine capable of launching atomic weapons - in defiance of a German law which explicitly forbids weapons exports if the danger exists that the receiving country might use them in a war of aggression:
§ 6 Versagung der Genehmigung
...
(3) Die Genehmigung ist zu versagen, wenn
1. die Gefahr besteht, daß die Kriegswaffen bei einer friedensstörenden Handlung, insbesondere bei einem Angriffskrieg, verwendet werden
http://bundesrecht.juris.de/bundesrecht/krwaffkontrg/gesamt.pdf
The prime minister of Israel has publicy threatened aggressive action against Iran which clearly makes the submarine export illegal. Grass uses his moral authority as Germany's most widely known and well-respected intellectual to support the opposition against that illegal decision.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Or at least a translation of it.
But no it isn't just about the German government, he calls Israel a threat to world peace and claims it would wipe out the Iranian people.
Maybe it sounds better in German.
reorg
(3,317 posts)I said it is mainly, not "just" about the illegal German decision to sell submarines to Israel.
He doesn't claim Israel "would wipe out the Iranian people". He simply refers to what many commentators have said, that a war could spin out of control. Other countries could get involved, and if worst comes to worst, nuclear weapons could be deployed, ultimately leading to a situation where "survivors are at best footnotes" and the entire population of the country attacked might be annihilated. The mere possiblity of which is a threat to world peace, no doubt.
If, OTOH, all countries "renounce violence" he thinks such a situation would not come to pass.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)He clearly references a "first strike" by Israel (a nuclear first attack), which could wipe out the Iranian people.
The very idea that Israel would use nuclear weapons to attack Iran first is lunacy.
Your interpretation doesn't jive with the literal words of the poem.
reorg
(3,317 posts)the "alleged right to strike first".
Whereas India and China have pledged to not be the first to use nuclear weapons in any conflict,
Pakistan, Russia, the United Kingdom, the United States, and France say they will use nuclear weapons against either nuclear or non-nuclear states only in the case of invasion or other attack against their territory or against one of their allies.
(...) At a NATO summit in April 1999, Germany proposed that NATO adopt a no-first-use policy, but the proposal was rejected.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_first_use
The right to strike first is clearly on the table whenever a succession of events is presumed where a major (non-nuclear) attack against a NATO/US ally is likely.
Grass is clearly NOT referencing a "nuclear first strike by Israel", but the general situation where such first strikes are not categorically ruled out by the countries with the most powerful militaries on earth. Netanyaho has made believable threats to bomb facilities in Iran, not if and when Israel is attacked, but merely because of suspicions that nuclear weapons MIGHT be developed there at some point which in theory MIGHT be used against Israel. Do you know what he will do if he suspects a massive (conventional) counterattack to such a limited first strike? Do you know what Israel's allies will do?
Grass fears, since such scenarios have been "Practiced in war games, at the end of which we as survivors Are at best footnotes" that Netanyahu's threat could lead to a nuclear confrontation and wipe out the people of Iran, given that they are living "under the yoke of a loudmouth", someone who is not very likely to strike a conciliatory tone towards his Israeli counterparts, especially not if they are making direct threats. Instead of adding further fuel to the conflict e.g. by delivering more weapons, Grass suggests to "prompt those who initiated the recognizable danger To renounce violence and Likewise insist That an unhindered and permanent control Of the Israeli nuclear potential And the Iranian nuclear sites Be authorized through an international agency By the governments of both countries."
These are the literal words of the poem:
Es ist das behauptete Recht auf den Erstschlag,
der das von einem Maulhelden unterjochte
und zum organisierten Jubel gelenkte
iranische Volk auslöschen könnte,
weil in dessen Machtbereich der Bau
einer Atombombe vermutet wird.
...
den Verursacher der erkennbaren Gefahr
zum Verzicht auf Gewalt auffordern und
gleichfalls darauf bestehen,
daß eine unbehinderte und permanente Kontrolle
des israelischen atomaren Potentials
und der iranischen Atomanlagen
durch eine internationale Instanz
von den Regierungen beider Länder zugelassen wird.
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/kultur/gedicht-zum-konflikt-zwischen-israel-und-iran-was-gesagt-werden-muss-1.1325809
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/04/gunter-grasss-controversial-poem-about-israel-iran-and-war-translated/255549/
Old Union Guy
(738 posts)Who actually threatened to nuke who?
arikara
(5,562 posts)These are the words to which you are referring.
It is the alleged right to the first strike
That could annihilate the Iranian people-
And
...
The nuclear power Israel endangers
The already fragile world peace?
The poem is very good. And true. There is no shame in writing such a poem.
JVS
(61,935 posts)Response to RZM (Reply #40)
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