Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

bananas

(27,509 posts)
Sun Apr 8, 2012, 03:22 PM Apr 2012

Israel bars German author over poem critical of its nuclear arsenal

Source: McClatchy

JERUSALEM — Israel's interior minister declared the celebrated German author Gunter Grass "persona non grata" on Sunday, barring his entry to the country, in response to a new poem in which the Nobel laureate called Israel's undeclared nuclear arsenal a threat to world peace.

<snip>

Grass's poem, titled "What Must Be Said," was published in the German newspaper Suddeutsche Zeitung, provoking Israeli condemnations and criticism in Germany, where the memory of the Holocaust constrains public debate about Israel and infuses the complex relationship between the two countries.

<snip>

The Israeli Embassy in Berlin branded Grass's poem anti-Semitic, saying that its publication before the Jewish Passover holiday, "belongs to European tradition to accuse the Jews of ritual murder before the Passover celebration."

German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle wrote in a commentary Sunday in the Bild am Sonntag newspaper that "putting Israel and Iran on the same moral level is...absurd," adding that Germany has an "historic responsibility" toward Israel.

<snip>

Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2012/04/08/3542989/israel-bars-german-author-over.html

82 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Israel bars German author over poem critical of its nuclear arsenal (Original Post) bananas Apr 2012 OP
As Valerie Plame said, getting to global zero won't be easy. nt bananas Apr 2012 #1
German author? JerseyMac Apr 2012 #2
Life long Nazi. n/t Old Union Guy Apr 2012 #3
That's not true. tabasco Apr 2012 #6
yes Günter Glass did serve in an SS Panzer unit in 1944 when he was 17 didn't he? azurnoir Apr 2012 #8
Shame on you. JackRiddler Apr 2012 #10
So are all IDF members lifelong Irgun terrorists by your asinine and simple logic? Robeysays Apr 2012 #12
If someone was in Irgun and seems to advocate for Irgun positions decades later. Kurska Apr 2012 #25
Grass isn't advocating for a Nazi position. Ken Burch Apr 2012 #34
Post removed Post removed Apr 2012 #72
That's twice you've made that accusation about me Ken Burch Apr 2012 #78
Bullshit Ken Burch Apr 2012 #23
Thank you for the truth, Ken Tom Ripley Apr 2012 #24
Doesnt matter. In the end its their country and they can say who can enter it and who cant just like cstanleytech Apr 2012 #52
Ok. Ken Burch Apr 2012 #57
He was a Nazi. You can argue he isn't one anymore. Kurska Apr 2012 #58
The poem wasn't antisemitic Ken Burch Apr 2012 #65
I dont know if he is or if he isnt and frankly I dont care nor cstanleytech Apr 2012 #60
Did you realize your entire post was a run-on sentence? Ken Burch Apr 2012 #64
Post removed Post removed Apr 2012 #73
You just accused me of promoting something unspeakable, because I disagreed with you about a poem. Ken Burch Apr 2012 #77
Bullshit. Grass is a lifelong ANTI-Nazi Ken Burch Apr 2012 #79
Not true LeftishBrit Apr 2012 #80
Gunter the Nazi was Waffen SS. Ruby the Liberal Apr 2012 #7
wasn't it the Waffen SS Panzer unit and for how many years was that? n/t azurnoir Apr 2012 #9
Is this why so many good authors were repeatedly blocked from publication in the US? Trillo Apr 2012 #4
I guess Mordechai Vanunu was an anti-semite, too! provis99 Apr 2012 #5
Former Waffen SS member Guther Grass barred Riftaxe Apr 2012 #11
Then we should Bar all Israelis who severed in the IDF for there life long Irgun Affiliation. Robeysays Apr 2012 #13
Well first of Irgun isn't nearly the equivalent to the Waffen SS. Kurska Apr 2012 #26
they didn't bar him for being a Nazi. provis99 Apr 2012 #14
Post removed Post removed Apr 2012 #74
It's not just Israel's nuclear arsenal that needs to be destroyed, WHEN CRABS ROAR Apr 2012 #15
Might as well wish for a unicorn as thats as likely to happen imo. cstanleytech Apr 2012 #20
Author of "The Tin Drum". no_hypocrisy Apr 2012 #16
Wow. Godwin's Law much?? Malikshah Apr 2012 #17
thanks you got it exactly right azurnoir Apr 2012 #31
Read the poem. WHEN CRABS ROAR Apr 2012 #18
hey israel way to take the high ground while murdering people worldwide starfox172 Apr 2012 #19
It's frustrating to me that there seems to be no distinction in the minds of some XemaSab Apr 2012 #21
You're right - judging Jews by Israel is like judging Americans by George W. saras Apr 2012 #22
True primavera Apr 2012 #36
This guy was Waffen SS. Ideological apples rarely fall far from their ideological roots. Kurska Apr 2012 #27
so criticizing Israels nukes is firing a broadside at the Jewish people? azurnoir Apr 2012 #30
Calling the Jewish state the world's greatest threat to peace is. n/t Kurska Apr 2012 #37
The word you are ignoring is "drafted". PavePusher Apr 2012 #35
Part of a wartime building company. Voluntered to join the Kreigsmarine. Kurska Apr 2012 #38
Which had little to do with National Socialist sympathies, if any. PavePusher Apr 2012 #43
Back track much? Kurska Apr 2012 #44
I never said he didn't volunteer for the military. PavePusher Apr 2012 #49
Hitler youth, volunteered for service, holds anti-semitic beliefs decades later. Kurska Apr 2012 #54
I ask again for cites for your claims, please. PavePusher Apr 2012 #61
He was a Hitler youth member Kurska Apr 2012 #62
You know nothing about Günter Grass reorg Apr 2012 #63
Because you say so? n/t Kurska Apr 2012 #68
So you are claiming that anti-semitism is in the ire of the beholder? Tom Ripley Apr 2012 #66
No I'm saying it is harder to prove as objective fact than membership in an organization. Kurska Apr 2012 #67
Cites to an internet post, and an Isreali newspaper... PavePusher Apr 2012 #70
Some more actual history for you.... PavePusher Apr 2012 #50
"wartime building company"? Cite, please. n/t PavePusher Apr 2012 #51
Luftwaffenhelfer Kurska Apr 2012 #55
Too bad for Israel Arctic Dave Apr 2012 #28
LOL. Showing my ignorance, I thought BlueMTexpat Apr 2012 #29
Israel’s policy endangers world peace’ — Jakob Augstein and Gideon Levy have Gunter Grass’s back JohnyCanuck Apr 2012 #32
If you're threatened by a poem, you are clearly and unequivocally WRONG. End of story. saras Apr 2012 #33
Many people at many times have felt threatened by Nazi's. n/t Kurska Apr 2012 #39
Gunter Grass is not really any more of a Nazi than the pope is RZM Apr 2012 #40
but don't you see Bodhi BloodWave Apr 2012 #41
It is pretty odd RZM Apr 2012 #42
Except he didn't just critize Israel's nuclear weapons. Kurska Apr 2012 #45
Does that mean that DUers who say the same thing are disguised as liberals too? RZM Apr 2012 #46
If anyone is saying Israel wants to kill every Iranian and is the primary threat to world peace Kurska Apr 2012 #47
I've never heard anyone here argue the first one RZM Apr 2012 #48
Grass did not make any of these assertions reorg Apr 2012 #53
I actually read the poem. Kurska Apr 2012 #56
Your posts don't reflect that reorg Apr 2012 #59
Except he isn't talking about a war spiraling out of control. Kurska Apr 2012 #69
He clearly references reorg Apr 2012 #81
It's a lie to justify genocide. Old Union Guy Apr 2012 #75
He didn't say that at all. You didn't even read it. arikara Apr 2012 #76
Citation needed JVS Apr 2012 #82
Post removed Post removed Apr 2012 #71
 

JerseyMac

(12 posts)
2. German author?
Sun Apr 8, 2012, 03:39 PM
Apr 2012

Just that? Really? How about a Nobel Prize Winner in Literature? Writer of "The Tin Drum"?

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
8. yes Günter Glass did serve in an SS Panzer unit in 1944 when he was 17 didn't he?
Sun Apr 8, 2012, 04:09 PM
Apr 2012

so that does qualify as life long I guess along with every other German who served in Hitlers army life long Nazi's the lot of them, eh?

 

Robeysays

(673 posts)
12. So are all IDF members lifelong Irgun terrorists by your asinine and simple logic?
Sun Apr 8, 2012, 04:25 PM
Apr 2012

the shoe hit the dog the whelps. Watch the flame war and censorship begin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

National Military Organization in the Land of Israel&quot , was a Zionist paramilitary group that operated in Mandate Palestine between 1931 and 1948. It was an offshoot of the earlier and larger Jewish paramilitary organization Haganah Hebrew: "Defense". When the group broke from the Haganah it became known as the Haganah Bet Hebrew: literally "Defense 'B' " or "Second Defense", or alternatively as haHaganah haLeumit or Ha'ma'amad.[1] Irgun members were absorbed into the Israel Defence Forces at the start of the 1948 Arab–Israeli war. The Irgun is also referred to as Etzel, an acronym of the Hebrew initials, or by the abbreviation IZL


Israel is just having a hard time coming to terms with being a rouge nation with a failed and rather un-American ideological philosophy. Their reign of terror will end eventually, just like the nazi's did, when the world gets sick of appeasement.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
25. If someone was in Irgun and seems to advocate for Irgun positions decades later.
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 03:18 AM
Apr 2012

I'd call them a lifelong member of Irgun.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
34. Grass isn't advocating for a Nazi position.
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 12:44 PM
Apr 2012

He's just against an Israeli attack on Iran.

That doesn't equate to wanting to finish the Holocaust.

Response to Ken Burch (Reply #34)

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
23. Bullshit
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 03:05 AM
Apr 2012

Grass has spent seventy years using his talent as a writer to CONFRONT what Germany did in the Nazi era...what he did for one year(almost certainly as a conscript, and, as far as I know, never seeing combat)does not negate his lifelong commitment to opposing fascism and all forms of bigotry.

cstanleytech

(26,273 posts)
52. Doesnt matter. In the end its their country and they can say who can enter it and who cant just like
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 11:47 PM
Apr 2012

any other nation can.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
57. Ok.
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 01:44 AM
Apr 2012

But that doesn't mean that slanders have to remain unchallenged.

Gunter Grass is NOT a Nazi.

The sick part of all this is...if Grass was SUPPORTING Israel missile strikes on Iran, they'd probably cut him a break for much, much worse.

It's disgusting how obsessed the Israeli government is with attacking Iran-whether or not such an attack would actually serve ANY positive purpose.

Bibi needs to give this shit a rest.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
58. He was a Nazi. You can argue he isn't one anymore.
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 03:10 AM
Apr 2012

But the frankly anti-semitic filth he is spewing via this poem doesn't help that argument.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
65. The poem wasn't antisemitic
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 08:27 PM
Apr 2012

Last edited Tue Apr 10, 2012, 09:08 PM - Edit history (1)

The poem criticizes Netanyahu's unjustified demands for missile strikes on Iran, missile strikes that would have to kill huge numbers of innocent Iranian civilians. That does NOT equate to antisemitism

It is universally agreed that comments about the Israeli government are not the same as expressions of hatred towards Jews. Gunter Grass is not an antisemite.

And the State of Israel is not the same as "The Jews", nor does it have any right to claim to speak for every Jewish person in the world. It's always been demagogic for spokespersons for the Israeli government to blur the line on that point.

cstanleytech

(26,273 posts)
60. I dont know if he is or if he isnt and frankly I dont care nor
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 04:05 PM
Apr 2012

do I care what they said about him because in the end its still their country and they can deny entry for whatever reason to someone.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
64. Did you realize your entire post was a run-on sentence?
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 08:25 PM
Apr 2012

Last edited Tue Apr 10, 2012, 09:39 PM - Edit history (1)

Fine, they can keep him out...but the slander doesn't remain unchallenged.

Gunter Grass is not a Nazi...and nothing in that poem(a poem I wouldn't have written and that Grass himself now says he should have rewritten to make it specific to Netanyahu and his insane call for war) was antisemitic.

Israel is just another country. It is not synonymous with an entire people or an entire religion.

Response to Ken Burch (Reply #23)

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
77. You just accused me of promoting something unspeakable, because I disagreed with you about a poem.
Sun Apr 15, 2012, 01:28 PM
Apr 2012

Last edited Sun Apr 15, 2012, 02:04 PM - Edit history (1)

Uh...say WHAT?

(btw, Grass isn't promoting any such thing, either. He just wants to avoid the mass murder of innocent Iranian civilians).

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
79. Bullshit. Grass is a lifelong ANTI-Nazi
Sun Apr 15, 2012, 01:33 PM
Apr 2012

He's spent every year since 1945 proving it.

He was only in their army as a conscript-same as with Helmut Schmidt and Helmut Kohl-and Pope Ratzi-if THEY weren't obligated to desert to prove that they weren't anti-Nazi, Grass wasn't either. The fact is, the only PURELY anti-Nazi figure in post-World War II West Germany was Willy Brandt-and OUR country's leaders hated him like poison.

You don't have to support an Israeli strike on Tehran to prove you're not an antisemite-especially since we all know such a strike wouldn't actually help anything.

LeftishBrit

(41,205 posts)
80. Not true
Sun Apr 15, 2012, 02:02 PM
Apr 2012

He did serve in the SS as a teenager; but he most certainly was not a lifelong Nazi and was very critical of his country's Nazi past.

And I post as someone who has never been an enormous fan of Grass' work (not for political reasons; just could never get into it), and considers this latest poem to be dire and his current behaviour over-the-top. But let's not use 'Nazi' slurs.

Trillo

(9,154 posts)
4. Is this why so many good authors were repeatedly blocked from publication in the US?
Sun Apr 8, 2012, 04:00 PM
Apr 2012

That there are global "blacklists", and if you're on one you'll never be published by any group that will see to it you get a royalty check every month?

Does Isreal represent a metaphorical facet that all humans are subjected to? Is the Palestine/Isreal issue either merely or also a metaphor for the economic war waged against the poor everywhere?

Riftaxe

(2,693 posts)
11. Former Waffen SS member Guther Grass barred
Sun Apr 8, 2012, 04:23 PM
Apr 2012

from entering Israel, would be a more accurate and concise headline.

Gee, I wonder why Israel is not in such a rush to embrace him.

 

Robeysays

(673 posts)
13. Then we should Bar all Israelis who severed in the IDF for there life long Irgun Affiliation.
Sun Apr 8, 2012, 04:34 PM
Apr 2012

1948 is closer than 1944.


nice try with the Ad Hominin, you failed to address the debate and personally attacked the source. The issue here is the Israeli Nuclear arsenal, it's relative secrecy and the lengths at which the state tries to appear innocent. There fore you have lost the syllogy. and the point is scored to the OP.

AKA You fail.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
26. Well first of Irgun isn't nearly the equivalent to the Waffen SS.
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 03:25 AM
Apr 2012

Secondly, the Irgun was a paramilitary group that was separate from the IDF. It is like you're saying all the members of the columbian military should be banned as being members of paramilitary death squads. Irgun was absorbed by the IDF, but only after they committed what most people would consider their warcrimes. Even then if you were to ban people for such a reason, you should probably restrict it to just people who actually fought in Irgun.

Irgun actually fought with the IDF in at least one incident.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altalena_Affair

You're the one who is committing the logical fail here.

 

provis99

(13,062 posts)
14. they didn't bar him for being a Nazi.
Sun Apr 8, 2012, 04:46 PM
Apr 2012

they barred him for criticizing Israel's nuclear weapons stash.

Response to provis99 (Reply #14)

WHEN CRABS ROAR

(3,813 posts)
15. It's not just Israel's nuclear arsenal that needs to be destroyed,
Sun Apr 8, 2012, 04:47 PM
Apr 2012

It's all of them, pure and simple. If not, we will all suffer the outcome in the future.

Malikshah

(4,818 posts)
17. Wow. Godwin's Law much??
Sun Apr 8, 2012, 05:20 PM
Apr 2012

Interesting logic games being played here.

And by interesting, I mean obfuscation.

Ah, me. C'est la vie.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
31. thanks you got it exactly right
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 08:36 AM
Apr 2012

if we scream Nazi loud enough and long enough then we can avoid discussing what the poem was actually about

XemaSab

(60,212 posts)
21. It's frustrating to me that there seems to be no distinction in the minds of some
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 12:36 AM
Apr 2012

between the Jewish people (who I have nothing but love and affection for) and the Israeli government (who I don't much care for).

It's sort of like back in the day when W was resident there was a period of time where saying anything negative about W or his foreign policy was tantamount to wiping one's ass with the American flag. We seem to have moved past that as a country though, but in Israel that mentality doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

 

saras

(6,670 posts)
22. You're right - judging Jews by Israel is like judging Americans by George W.
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 02:43 AM
Apr 2012

and by the "nazi" logic, all American veterans are psycho killers, right?

primavera

(5,191 posts)
36. True
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 04:14 PM
Apr 2012

But it doesn't reflect kindly upon even those of us who opposed Bush when we are part of a country that raised him to power. In a democratic nation where governments are elected, the people who elect them have to bear some share of the blame for their governments' excesses.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
27. This guy was Waffen SS. Ideological apples rarely fall far from their ideological roots.
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 03:28 AM
Apr 2012

I'm sorry, but being a former SS member makes you uniquely unqualified to try and fire broadsides at the Jewish people or the Jewish state of Israel.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
30. so criticizing Israels nukes is firing a broadside at the Jewish people?
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 08:33 AM
Apr 2012

would that be the same as antisemitism? if not then explain please

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
38. Part of a wartime building company. Voluntered to join the Kreigsmarine.
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 05:10 PM
Apr 2012

You're missing the part where he volunteered to enter a combat position.

 

PavePusher

(15,374 posts)
43. Which had little to do with National Socialist sympathies, if any.
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 07:34 PM
Apr 2012

Check some German History. Lots of patriotic Germans weren't Nazi's and volunteered for the military.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
44. Back track much?
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 07:43 PM
Apr 2012

First it is "he never volunteered", now it is "well he volunteered, but he was just a patriotic German".

Maybe just maybe volunteering for the Nazi's warmachine isn't something that should be looked upon proudly.

 

PavePusher

(15,374 posts)
49. I never said he didn't volunteer for the military.
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 10:50 PM
Apr 2012

I said he did not volunteer for the SS.

Maybe, just maybe, the man of 2012 isn't the youth of 1944.

And maybe, just maybe, you could come up with some evidence supporting your claim of being a Nazi, instead of saying that being drafted in wartime was an indicator of anything other than being drafted in wartime.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
54. Hitler youth, volunteered for service, holds anti-semitic beliefs decades later.
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 01:04 AM
Apr 2012

Nazi through and through.

 

PavePusher

(15,374 posts)
61. I ask again for cites for your claims, please.
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 04:57 PM
Apr 2012

I did not see evidence in any of my cites that he was a Hitler Youth member. And being anti-Nuclear Weapons is not at all the same as being anti-semitic.

Cites, please.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
62. He was a Hitler youth member
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 07:54 PM
Apr 2012
http://www.famousauthors.org/gunter-grass

Website saying he was

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israeli-writers-call-on-international-literary-community-to-rebuke-gunter-grass-1.423465

News paper saying the same

"the Hebrew Writers Association said in a public statement on Monday, referring to Grass' days as a member of the Hitler youth and Nazi SS. "Grass should clean his clothes and his past, express remorse for the days when he served in the Nazi Death Army, because his terrible statement cast a dark shadow over all of his writings."

And yes he is, I've read his poem and it seems anti-semitic to me. Anti-semitism is much harder to define and a judgement call, I don't know how I can prove that to you.

You have consistently challenged me on the facts only for my assertions to be proven correct with sources.

reorg

(3,317 posts)
63. You know nothing about Günter Grass
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 08:16 PM
Apr 2012

To label him anti-semitic is on the same level as calling Obama a muslim extremist.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
67. No I'm saying it is harder to prove as objective fact than membership in an organization.
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 10:22 PM
Apr 2012

Because anti-semitism doesn't keep membership rolls and as far as I know doesn't collect dues, for instance.

The only way you can prove someone is an anti-semite, without them claiming to be it, is demonstrate anti-jewish bias in their statements. Again that ultimately comes down to what someone sees or is willing to see.

Example, people closing their eyes to the ex-waffen SS member who calls Israel the world's greatest threat to peace.

 

PavePusher

(15,374 posts)
70. Cites to an internet post, and an Isreali newspaper...
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 10:51 PM
Apr 2012

with no link or reference to scholarly research.... doth not convincing evidence make.

I'll note that belonging to the Hitler Youth was the German equivalent of the U.S./British Boy Scouts (although far more government-sanctioned and supported) and not a very reliable indicator of future political affiliation.

More noteably, you haven't been able to reference any post-war Nazi ties.

Quite frankly, your writing so far would fail any high school class I was ever in. Good luck with that.

 

PavePusher

(15,374 posts)
50. Some more actual history for you....
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 11:07 PM
Apr 2012

He did not originally volunteer, his entire age-group was drafted:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftwaffenhelfer

He later volunteered for the navy, at a time when anyone who didn't volunteer, was going to be drafted anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCnter_Grass

The 10th SS Panzer Division doesn't seem to have been connected to any atrocities, despite your pointed insinuation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10th_SS_Panzer_Division_Frundsberg

And note that here in para. 4, it was recognized that draftees in SS units held an exemption from assumption of war crimes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen_SS

I'm really not sure how you think a not-quite-adult had much choice to NOT serve his country in such a war. Merely being on the wrong side is no particular indicator of political beliefs (did you miss the part of history where most Germans youths of that generation were pretty thouroughly indoctrinated and brain-washed without giving their permission?), or commision of any crimes or atrocities.

If you have any evidence that he was ever a commited National Socialist before or after the breaking of the Party during/after the war, please provide it now.

BlueMTexpat

(15,365 posts)
29. LOL. Showing my ignorance, I thought
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 04:36 AM
Apr 2012

you meant ONE book!

Fortunately, the Google cleared things up for me.

The Flounder http://www.amazon.com/Flounder-Helen-Kurt-Wolff-Book/dp/0156319357

The Rat http://www.amazon.com/The-Rat-Gunter-Grass/dp/015675830X/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b

There are plenty of Israelis who believe that their government has overreacted. See, e.g., http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/israel-has-reacted-with-hysteria-over-gunter-grass-1.423312

From the article:

...
The emotions can be understood, but it's hard to accept the overreaction. When the interior minister says, "If Gunter Grass wants to continue to distribute his false and distorted works, I suggest he do so from Iran, where he'll find an appreciative audience," he doesn't even detect the irony in his words. Because it's precisely his decision not to let Grass enter Israel because of a poem he wrote that is characteristic of dark regimes like those in Iran or North Korea.

The combination of declarations against Israel and a past as a Nazi soldier is an explosive combination that invites sharp reactions. But while Benjamin Netanyahu's remark describing Grass' work as "ignorant and shameful declarations that any fair person in the world must condemn" can be accepted as part of the public debate, Yishai's use of his governmental authority is not legitimate. Any protest should be expressed within the democratic-liberal framework, which allows every person to express his views - provocative though they may be.
...

JohnyCanuck

(9,922 posts)
32. Israel’s policy endangers world peace’ — Jakob Augstein and Gideon Levy have Gunter Grass’s back
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 11:09 AM
Apr 2012

It's starting to dawn on me how important Gunter Grass's poem is. The naysayers predictably took their first loud shots against it (and him), that's to be expected. But the pushback has hardly begun and what remains unclear is the overall reaction of the public both within German society and internationally.

Commenter LeaNder alerted us to this prescient article in Spiegel Online by influential German columnist and political analyst Jakob Augstein (check out his bio, no slouch), who nails it in his article Why We Need an Open Debate on Israel.

snip

Augstein writes "the Netanyahu administration has the entire world holding its breath" and "Israel has thrust an ultimatum on the world". How many people feel like this? And who is speaking for us?

snip

Something tells me Grass's poem could be the gift that keeps on giving. Open the floodgates and let the real conversation begin. Let's hope Jakob Augstein is right and Grass's poem marks a rupture, allowing more of us to express ourselves moving forward.

http://mondoweiss.net/2012/04/israels-policy-endangers-world-peace-jakob-augstein-and-gideon-levy-have-gunter-grasss-back.html

 

RZM

(8,556 posts)
40. Gunter Grass is not really any more of a Nazi than the pope is
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 05:19 PM
Apr 2012

The main criticism of Grass' military record is not so much that he served in the German army, but that he waited until a few years ago to tell everybody.

His long career and his status as the unofficial 'conscience of postwar West Germany' shows that he most definitely was not much of a Nazi.

Bodhi BloodWave

(2,346 posts)
41. but don't you see
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 05:35 PM
Apr 2012

his short time in the german army IS who he truly is and this poem proves it

Whatever he has done AFTER the war was just a cover and false identity he made for himself until he could fire of this broadside of a destructive poem

Perfectly logical

and obviously i was totally sarcastic above, but there seems to be some who believes some variety of the above

 

RZM

(8,556 posts)
42. It is pretty odd
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 05:44 PM
Apr 2012

He's a liberal. Lots of liberals aren't big fans of Israeli policies or nuclear weapons (though some bizarrely support Iran getting them). It makes sense that combining Israel and nuclear weapons would lead to condemnation from a liberal.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
45. Except he didn't just critize Israel's nuclear weapons.
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 07:48 PM
Apr 2012

He claimed that Israel wants to wipe out the Iranian people and is the world's greatest threat to peace.

If he has disguised himself as a liberal previously, I'm glad his shame is out in the public now.

 

RZM

(8,556 posts)
46. Does that mean that DUers who say the same thing are disguised as liberals too?
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 09:53 PM
Apr 2012

The idea that Israel is bad and a threat to peace is mostly a left-wing argument in the West. You see it here all the time.

I don't agree with the assertion, but I do think plenty of liberals hold that belief.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
47. If anyone is saying Israel wants to kill every Iranian and is the primary threat to world peace
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 10:15 PM
Apr 2012

they do not belong on a progressive discussion board.

 

RZM

(8,556 posts)
48. I've never heard anyone here argue the first one
Mon Apr 9, 2012, 10:17 PM
Apr 2012

But the second is quite common. Some people believe the exact opposite - that you're not really a progressive unless you strongly oppose Israel.

reorg

(3,317 posts)
53. Grass did not make any of these assertions
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 12:12 AM
Apr 2012

please read his statements before you - perhaps unwittingly - spread untruths.

The main thrust of his "poem" goes against the German government which a few months ago has approved the export to Israel of yet another submarine capable of launching atomic weapons - in defiance of a German law which explicitly forbids weapons exports if the danger exists that the receiving country might use them in a war of aggression:

§ 6 Versagung der Genehmigung
...
(3) Die Genehmigung ist zu versagen, wenn
1. die Gefahr besteht, daß die Kriegswaffen bei einer friedensstörenden Handlung, insbesondere bei einem Angriffskrieg, verwendet werden

http://bundesrecht.juris.de/bundesrecht/krwaffkontrg/gesamt.pdf

The prime minister of Israel has publicy threatened aggressive action against Iran which clearly makes the submarine export illegal. Grass uses his moral authority as Germany's most widely known and well-respected intellectual to support the opposition against that illegal decision.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
56. I actually read the poem.
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 01:10 AM
Apr 2012

Or at least a translation of it.

But no it isn't just about the German government, he calls Israel a threat to world peace and claims it would wipe out the Iranian people.

Maybe it sounds better in German.

reorg

(3,317 posts)
59. Your posts don't reflect that
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 07:40 AM
Apr 2012

I said it is mainly, not "just" about the illegal German decision to sell submarines to Israel.

He doesn't claim Israel "would wipe out the Iranian people". He simply refers to what many commentators have said, that a war could spin out of control. Other countries could get involved, and if worst comes to worst, nuclear weapons could be deployed, ultimately leading to a situation where "survivors are at best footnotes" and the entire population of the country attacked might be annihilated. The mere possiblity of which is a threat to world peace, no doubt.

If, OTOH, all countries "renounce violence" he thinks such a situation would not come to pass.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
69. Except he isn't talking about a war spiraling out of control.
Tue Apr 10, 2012, 10:28 PM
Apr 2012

He clearly references a "first strike" by Israel (a nuclear first attack), which could wipe out the Iranian people.

The very idea that Israel would use nuclear weapons to attack Iran first is lunacy.

Your interpretation doesn't jive with the literal words of the poem.

reorg

(3,317 posts)
81. He clearly references
Sun Apr 15, 2012, 04:03 PM
Apr 2012

the "alleged right to strike first".

Whereas India and China have pledged to not be the first to use nuclear weapons in any conflict,

Pakistan, Russia, the United Kingdom, the United States, and France say they will use nuclear weapons against either nuclear or non-nuclear states only in the case of invasion or other attack against their territory or against one of their allies.

(...) At a NATO summit in April 1999, Germany proposed that NATO adopt a no-first-use policy, but the proposal was rejected.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_first_use


The right to strike first is clearly on the table whenever a succession of events is presumed where a major (non-nuclear) attack against a NATO/US ally is likely.

Grass is clearly NOT referencing a "nuclear first strike by Israel", but the general situation where such first strikes are not categorically ruled out by the countries with the most powerful militaries on earth. Netanyaho has made believable threats to bomb facilities in Iran, not if and when Israel is attacked, but merely because of suspicions that nuclear weapons MIGHT be developed there at some point which in theory MIGHT be used against Israel. Do you know what he will do if he suspects a massive (conventional) counterattack to such a limited first strike? Do you know what Israel's allies will do?

Grass fears, since such scenarios have been "Practiced in war games, at the end of which we as survivors Are at best footnotes" that Netanyahu's threat could lead to a nuclear confrontation and wipe out the people of Iran, given that they are living "under the yoke of a loudmouth", someone who is not very likely to strike a conciliatory tone towards his Israeli counterparts, especially not if they are making direct threats. Instead of adding further fuel to the conflict e.g. by delivering more weapons, Grass suggests to "prompt those who initiated the recognizable danger To renounce violence and Likewise insist That an unhindered and permanent control Of the Israeli nuclear potential And the Iranian nuclear sites Be authorized through an international agency By the governments of both countries."

These are the literal words of the poem:

Es ist das behauptete Recht auf den Erstschlag,
der das von einem Maulhelden unterjochte
und zum organisierten Jubel gelenkte
iranische Volk auslöschen könnte,
weil in dessen Machtbereich der Bau
einer Atombombe vermutet wird.

...

den Verursacher der erkennbaren Gefahr
zum Verzicht auf Gewalt auffordern und
gleichfalls darauf bestehen,
daß eine unbehinderte und permanente Kontrolle
des israelischen atomaren Potentials
und der iranischen Atomanlagen
durch eine internationale Instanz
von den Regierungen beider Länder zugelassen wird.
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/kultur/gedicht-zum-konflikt-zwischen-israel-und-iran-was-gesagt-werden-muss-1.1325809
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/04/gunter-grasss-controversial-poem-about-israel-iran-and-war-translated/255549/

arikara

(5,562 posts)
76. He didn't say that at all. You didn't even read it.
Sun Apr 15, 2012, 01:27 PM
Apr 2012

These are the words to which you are referring.

It is the alleged right to the first strike

That could annihilate the Iranian people-

And
...

The nuclear power Israel endangers

The already fragile world peace?



The poem is very good. And true. There is no shame in writing such a poem.

Response to RZM (Reply #40)

Latest Discussions»Latest Breaking News»Israel bars German author...