12-year-old boy shot by Cleveland police has died

[NeoConsSuck]

Source: Cleveland.com

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The 12-year-old boy wielding what turned out to be a BB gun when he was shot by police outside a Cleveland recreation center died early Sunday morning, a police union official confirmed.

The boy, whose name has not been officially released, was shot in the stomach at Cudell Recreation Center, at Detroit Avenue and West Boulevard, about 3:30 p.m. Saturday, police said.

He was taken to MetroHealth Medical Center in serious condition, EMS officials said. Throughout the night his condition deteriorated and he died early Sunday, Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association president Jeff Follmer said.

The shooting came after a man at the park adjacent to the rec center called police when he saw "a guy with a gun pointing it at people."

Read more: http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/12-year-old_boy_shot_by_clevel.html

[TexasProgresive]

1. It makes it no less tragic

but could the at least use the proper name for the gun- It's an airsoft and shoots 6 to 8 mm plastic pellets. BBs are smaller, metal and infinitely more dangerous.

[ReRe]

34. What did the airgun look like?

Did it look like a toy, or a real gun? I.e., was it multicolored in bright florescent colors?

[TexasProgresive]

37. I think all airsoft guns are realistic replicas of actual guns.

It is said that the orange marker was scratched off.

[ReRe]

43. Since we now have a Police State...

... all realistic-looking toy guns should be taken from the shelves. Or not allowed, unless all are completely florescent rainbow colored. Has this issue ever been mentioned by a lawmaker in this country?

[Aerows]

41. Looks real to me

[ReRe]

44. Damn sure does look real...

Were shots fired from it in this horrible incident? What does it sound like when fired?

[Aerows]

45. I have absolutely no idea

what they sound like. I don't know if it was fired or not, either. I just know if someone was waving it around, I'd be scared!

[ReRe]

61. Thanks.

[7962]

93. The damn thing should be brightly colored. nt

[GGJohn]

94. And in such a shape that it could never be mistaken for the real deal.

[Ken Burch]

114. It would make it MORE tragic if that fact were reported.

Perhaps that's why they've been calling it a "BB gun".

[catnhatnh]

2. The cop is a gutless fuck who is hiding in the hospital.

If you "injure" your ankle, up to and including breaking it, a civilian is released from the hospital in a few hours including time for x-rays and cast. This worm shoots a kid and then hides behind a boo-boo until after his "accident" travels to the morgue.

[GGJohn]

4. So, let me guess,

you can tell that this airsoft gun, recovered at the scene, without it's legally mandated orange tip, is not a real gun?



I spent 40 years in the Army, handling a wide variety of weapons, and I couldn't tell if it is real or not.

[BrotherIvan]

5. I agree

There is no reason on this earth that fake guns should look like real guns. All toy guns should be rainbow colored so there is absolutely no mistake. The reason the NRA fights this is because they know that putting a realistic gun in the hands of a child starts the fetish young and is likely to make a customer for life.

Not kidding, rainbow colored.

[GGJohn]

6. Or, redesign the damn things so they can't possibly be mistaken for a real gun.

[BrotherIvan]

15. Yeah

and make them rainbow colored!

[GGJohn]

19. +1000.

[Sweet Freedom]

32. Even so, they could just be spray painted. :(

But yes, they really should do something to not make them look so realistic!

[BrotherIvan]

35. It's true

Giving a kid a gun, whether toy or real, is extremely dangerous for many reasons. I wish parents could get rid of the "it's no big deal" idea and come up with other activities for their kids. I knew a boy, whose brothers were both pro athletes (and one very famous) who was the most gifted of them all. He was shot in the eye with a bb gun, so his very promising career was basically over. Kids can have fun with just about anything. They don't need a gun to have fun.

I didn't come from a hunting family nor did anyone we know own a gun. I understand the need for some people to hunt for food, and in fact I agree very much with this, especially if it is done humanely and with respect. But that whole thing was twisted into a sport or "fun" with guns and here we are. Oh, and profit for a few companies and the NRA. It's sick, truly psychotic, to have fun with a deadly weapon.

[jamzrockz]

62. This is mainly a problem in the US

I played with guns just as realistic as the one used by the kid in my neighborhood reenacting cops and robbers and nobody ever called the police on us.

[BrotherIvan]

80. Did you grow up in Canada?

Or another country without guns? Because the US is awash in guns, and kids are using guns they find at home or are given to harm themselves or others, it's fair to assume that a realistic looking gun is real. I know I would feel devastated if I assumed a kid with a gun just had a toy and then he shot someone. The problem is: GUNS.

[mimi85]

81. Chris Rock said it best.

[TheBlackAdder]

7. My son has an Air-Soft Baretta & Tommy Gun, his friends, AK-47's and M-16's. The cops here know.

Last edited Sun Nov 23, 2014, 03:01 PM - Edit history (1)

How detatched, of a police officer, do you have to be to remain so disconnected.

And my town, over 75K people, has a militarized police force.

These kids play in the local parks, and go into wooded sections behind developments with full cammo on, and all of the police are aware of this, even when a call was placed about heavily armed kids in the woods. Years go by and not one incident of overreaction.

Oh, and many of those air-soft guns are not equiped, or even sold with orange tips. I was originally correct, Fed Law does not require yellow tips onairsoft guns.

[GGJohn]

8. That's not to say that this cop knew.

The kid was told to raise his hands, instead, he reached for the gun in his waistband, whether by confusion or not, no cop should have to wait until the gun is drawn before defending themselves.

The fault for his death lies with whoever removed that orange tip.

[TheBlackAdder]

12. The cop is a moron. It doesn't take much to be a police officer, and less to be a bad one.

He overreacted, and I'd like to see the video of this shooting, to see if it went down as claimed.

It's nice he fired two shots in a playground, and only hitting the kid once.

Hopefully, there isn't a kid dead on a couch somewhere.

===

Besides, the kid is on a swing. He probably didn't want the thing to drop on the ground, not that he was going to raise it, but Sgt. Quick Draw didn't let that scenario play out.

[GGJohn]

16. Easy for you to say sitting safe and sound behind a keyboard.

[TheBlackAdder]

21. Yep, because I'm better educated and chose a better career.

The sun is finally being shone on police overreaction, doctoring of reports, and who they will shoot first.

This casts a serious doubt, on the profession that was once cherished, relegating it to a few ranks above thuggery.

[GGJohn]

22. Uh Huh!!!

[TheBlackAdder]

25. You're funny. What's to stop real guns from having orange tips glued to them or painted on them? nt

[GGJohn]

28. Nothing, matter of fact, it has happened.

That's why I believe that Congress should pass a law that mandates those guns should be of a design that can't possibly be mistaken for a real gun, not that I expect that to happen.

[FarPoint]

60. This rookie is definitely a moron.

12 year old boy sitting on a swing in the park area Rec Center...treats him like a Taliban enemy combatant. ....There are other options! Other options like taking cover, secure the scene and assess the situation. First and only choice is not to fire lethal force.

[pocoloco]

27. You are exactly right, but he will walk

like the one in Ferguson.

[GGJohn]

29. And rightly so if his story holds up with the available evidence.

[Ino]

36. They should post a photo of that boy...

a nice big poster of his 12-year-old bloody shot-up body with the caption "This is what will happen to you if you don't follow orders."

[George II]

23. Where are you?

[TheBlackAdder]

26. Living in a place that better screens their police candidates and trains them.

8 miles from one of the top 5 crime cities in the U.S.

[GeorgeGist]

9. Shoot to kill ...

right pal?

[GGJohn]

10. Wrong pal.

Cops are trained to shoot until the threat is stopped.

[TheBlackAdder]

17. Perceived threat.

This cop is a failure.

[samsingh]

31. the cop is a coward and a disgrace

[GGJohn]

48. Easy for you to say,

sitting all safe and sound behind your keyboard.

[samsingh]

49. again, the police have protocols and weapons to define them

easy for you to say as well, you don't care if the 12 year old was murdered

[GGJohn]

53. Murder?

I see your one of those cop haters, no matter the circumstances, the cop is guilty?
Take a look at the picture of the gun, can you tell if it's real or fake?
I can't and I've spent my entire adult career handling a wide variety of weapons.

[warrant46]

55. More of the story

However, Rice says her son did not have access to a gun in the home. She says if he did get a gun, it would have had to have come from a friend or someone on the street.She says she still does not understand why her son was shot.



The Airsoft .45 Replica does have an orange tip. Someone ?? must have removed it

[GGJohn]

58. Someone did remove it,

and whoever did is, IMO, responsible for that childs death.

Christ, that thing looks real, take off the tip and you couldn't tell the difference.

[branford]

72. At the time of the incident, the "how" or "where" the boy procured the gun is irrelevant.

The only issue is that he had what to any reasonable person looked to be an actual firearm, disobeyed basic police orders to put his hands up, and then actually reached for the weapon. The police were also at the playground because of a 911 call about someone waving a gun around.

If the gun was real, the officer and other innocent bystander children and adults would be in immediate grave danger. It's certainly not unheard of for 12 year olds to cause lethal havoc. Simply watch the news in Chicago.

Once the police were called, given the poor choices made by the boy, I don't see how this could of ended up differently. The situation might have been avoided, but that would likely have required better parenting and supervision well before the day in questions and not an insignificant amount of luck.

[TheBlackAdder]

74. OK, that's the police report. Now, what is the truth?

And, worrying about other people getting shot, where did the officer's stray bullet go?

Yes, that stupid 12-year-old. I'm glad your critical thinking skills, at 12, rivaled a 30-year-old's mind.

I'm sure you were a perfect kid, never doing anything dumb, always following orders. The perfect angel.

[branford]

75. There's dumb, and there's suicidal, and a 12 year old should readily know the difference.

I, for one, certainly knew by 12 that if ordered by the police to put my hands up by police, particularly if carrying a replica gun, that I should do so immediately. That hardly would make me or anyone else a "perfect kid."

A person is just as dead or injured if shot by a 12, 22 or 82 year old. If you want to know what a 12 year old can do with a gun, just watch the news in Chicago

In this instance, the police were called to the playground because of a 911 report of someone waving a gun around. The situation is now already serious and potentially very deadly. The police identify a suspect with a weapon indistinguishable from a actual firearm. Apparently, someone had removed the orange marker that indicated the gun was not real. The officers properly instruct the boy to put his hands up to mitigate any danger. Rather than comply, the boy inexplicably reaches for the weapon. The police officer shoots to protect himself and other innocents, including children. The officer had to make a decision based only on the information he had available at the time, nothing more.

All this should be easy to confirm, including multiple witness statements, and likely one or more videos, including playground surveillance and possibly even officer cameras.

If the officers' account is accurate, will you concede this was a justified shooting, even if the results were tragic?

[TheBlackAdder]

78. I concede, if video backs it up. Too much police cover-up tainted an officer's trust.

I've seen police embellish in traffic court. I've seen falsehoods in police reports over the past decades, especially dealing with shootings--there is a huge incentive to criminalize the victim in order to justify a 'clean shoot.'

Your assumptions that this was a 'clean shoot,' and the kid screwed up, shows an omniscient narrator.

Now, we all know you don't have the facts, so you are criminalizing the kid.

===

I like how you raise the whole 'waving a gun around' by the 911 caller and you've left out the part where the caller said that the gun didn't look real!

You're really working at spinning this incident in favor of the police.

===

I want to see all of the facts and I'm not taking the kid's side, or the police officers.

I'm just not giving the police the benefit of the doubt, that's a benefit they've abused.

[branford]

82. We have some simple facts that no news story has yet to dispute.

There was a 911 call about someone waving what could be a real gun at a playground. (the playground is known to be a gang hangout, although I've not heard if the officers knew this, but it would be likely)

The police responded. This certainly was not some random incident.

They identified a boy who had what appeared to be a real gun (a photo of the Airsoft in evidence is in a number of threads).

The Airsoft did not have the orange marker denoting it was not real (and that alone would not even be totally dispositive under the circumstances of a shooting)

Even if there are conflicting accounts about what occurred after this point, which we certainly have not heard, the laymen's "benefit of the doubt" already appears to strongly favor the police, particularly since they can only be judged on what they knew at the time.

Most importantly, just because a shooting is justified, doesn't mean it was not a terrible tragedy. It also appears that this incident never should have occurred, but the parenting and related choices had already been made and set in motion well before the 911 call.

[TheBlackAdder]

83. Keep prejudging, you'd make a great jurist, one the prosecutor in Ferguson would like. nt

[branford]

85. If you believe that officers may be guilty of a crime, they are still presumed innocent.

Would you kindly explain how any of my comments were actually inaccurate?

I'm also not "prejudging." I'm discussing the information that we currently have available. If this information changes, or new information is released or discovered, I will gladly consider it and revisit any or all of my thus far very limited conclusions. I have absolutely nothing personally vested in the outcome or findings.

Based on you prior comment, however, only an actual video MAY exonerate the police of a cover-up or similar malfeasance. Your are certainly entitled to your own opinions, but that is not the way our system works, are you are engaging in quite a bit of "prejudging" yourself.

[samsingh]

99. actually i like the police, i have relatives and friends in the police

i'm against murder

[GGJohn]

101. Good, I'm against murder also,

but so far all the evidence points to a justifiable homicide.
I'm waiting for the video surveillance tape to be released, that should put to rest whether or not this was justified.

[samsingh]

104. agreed - i want to know what the video shows

[OnlinePoker]

18. They are also trained to aim for the center of mass

There is no way a cop, seeing this gun, would know it wasn't a lethal weapon. I don't fault him for taking the shot.

[GGJohn]

20. Thank you.

I spent 40 years in the Army, handling a wide variety of weapons, and I couldn't tell at a quick glance if this gun is real or fake.

[OhioChick]

11. Cudell Rec Center is a known gang hangout, as well.

[840high]

14. I have 2 grandsons - toy

guns were never allowed in the house.

[crim son]

33. Three kids here, two are boys.

No toy guns or anything resembling guns were allowed in the house. Why? Because there is no legitimate reason in the world parents should be teaching small children that it's "fun" to shoot and and kill things, even in play.

[840high]

46. +100

[Scairp]

39. Looks real to me

You know I had this crazy idea that parents don't allow their kids to have realistic looking toys guns these days because something very terrible like this might happen. I guess I'm living in a fool's paradise with that kind of thinking. Poor little kid.

[iandhr]

42. Looks pretty damn real to me.

[belzabubba333]

38. instant outrage : take little info and add lots of prejudicial hatred of police =

this post

[samsingh]

51. the police have killed alot of unarmed black people

[GGJohn]

54. But in this case, the kid wasn't unarmed was he.

[samsingh]

97. actually he was

[GGJohn]

100. No, he was armed with a very realistic looking airsoft gun.

[Darb]

108. Really racking up the post counts spewing cover

for idiot cowards. It could have been avoided. It wasn't, and here you are to make sure you muddy the waters with your "justifiable" bullshit.

Low, really low.

[GGJohn]

115. Hi there.

Don't you have better things to do?
Oh yeah, I forgot, Blah, blah, blah.

[branford]

77. The police have also, quite justifiably,

shot many armed (and unarmed) and very dangerous black people, white people, old people, young people, . . .

[7962]

95. i think a lot here lose sight of that fact. nt

[samsingh]

98. i think the stats show a lot of innocent unarmed black people being killed

[FarPoint]

3. Maybe when the son of a famous person gets assinated by cops who shoot impulsively, this will end.

Some way, we must create a standard of practice for all law enforcement.

[valerief]

13. Not in our police state, sadly. nt

[orleans]

24. but was this cop shooting impulsively

or defensively?

the 12 yr old was reaching for the gun in his waistband

the cop didn't shoot the kid in the face or the chest. the location of the wound could have been an attempt to hit the kid's hand to prevent him from pulling out the gun

and he was told to put his hands up -- and he did not. instead, he was going for the gun

the cop needed to not only protect himself but anyone else who was around.

i read the cop fired 2 shots. was the first a warning shot? or was the first shot the one who hit the boy?

what happened at that park is an absolute tragedy but i don't see it as the fault of the cop.

if that boy was older we'd be talking about s.b.c.
(i did a research paper years ago that had case studies of children as young as four years old either attempting to purposely kill themselves or actually succeeding. for a 12 year old to attempt this is not beyond possibilities)

[FarPoint]

47. What ever happened to taking cover?

He was 12 years old sitting on the playground swing... More options were available... Lets all get a grip....we are not killing spiders and pesky rodents here...

[Aerows]

63. Uh, if that was pointed at me

I'd be scared to death. Whoever he obtained that gun from and whoever removed the orange safety tip to identify it as a BB gun is responsible for this 12 year old's death. If it had been a real gun, and the cops took cover and the kid shot another child, then there would be ranting and raving that the cop didn't take appropriate action.

I don't like it when children are shot. I don't like it when police officers are shot. I don't like it when anyone is shot, but to me, this was just a tragedy waiting to happen the moment that kid started waving around a gun that looked all too real on a playground full of children and went for it instead of putting his hands up.

[George II]

64. Taking cover? If he cop did and it turned out to be a real gun and other children got shot....

....(after all, it was 3:30 in the afternoon in a playground!!!!!) he'd be vilified for allowing other children to be killed.

[FarPoint]

79. Way too many fear based hypotheticals you got there....

These cops are suppose to be professional. Trained in securing a scene ...meaning they need to determine if it is an active shooter sitting on a swing set verses a child. They failed completely.

[branford]

84. Could you kindly provides you expertise and bona fides concerning

police procedure, tactics, firearms, etc.? I would like to have an actual expert opinion on what the police should and should not have done that afternoon, other than "acting professional."

Your statement that police "need to determine if it is an active shooter sitting on a swing set verses a child." is monumentally absurd. All you need to do is watch the news to readily and quickly realize that a child is more than capable of actually being an active shooter.

You are just as dead or injured if shot be a 12, 22 or 82 year old.

[FarPoint]

87. I've watched the news for over 30 years...

Police shooting 12 year olds on a swing set with a toy gun has not become a common occurrence until 2014. Prior to 2014 officers used skillful law enforcement training, used cognitive thinking with safety in mind at all times. Shooting first on impulse is a combat skill, not that of a peace officer.

Proof is, the child had a toy...no active shooter....OOPS just doesn't cut it for me. The public needs clear expectations of who the police actually are today. They are soldiers.. .Expect to be shot if you twitch, lack the understanding of English as the only language, if you are deaf, mentally ill or just in your own zone and give off some unintentionally mixed signal to a couch potato or George Zimmerman....expect to be shot.

[branford]

88. Watching the news for over 30 years qualifies you to sit comfortably on your couch,

not assess tactical situations and design and implement police procedures and training.

Other than telepathy, pre- and post-cognition, how were these officers to know that the gun held by the boy was not real. You've seen the same pictures as me. The Airsoft guns are designed to be replicas, and this one didn't even have the small orange plug denoting it was not real.

Moreover, according to all reports, the officers did not "shoot on first impulse." They responded to a 911 call, identified a suspect with a weapon, ordered him to raise his hands to remove the threat, and then only fired after the boy's hand went to his waistband that had the gun, rather that obey police instructions.

You don't get to judge how to handle a situation based on information only ascertained well after a shooting. The officers' conduct must be judged on what they actually knew when the shooting occurred, no more, no less.

Now instead of vague and useless generalities about "skill law enforcement training" and "cognitive thinking," kindly explain what the officers actually did wrong, and explain in detail how your news-watching self could realistically have done a better job under the circumstances. Remember, Police do not need to reasonably risk being shot to prove a gun is real and a 12 year old can kill you just as dead as 22 year old.

[FarPoint]

89. Your not worthy to know my professional background.

It's not sitting comfortable on a couch.

[branford]

90. If you're sitting or where is of no concern. It changes the discussion not at all.

However, "watching the news" is neither a scholastic nor practical qualification of expertise in police procedure, the related law and legal procedure, firearms and replicas, child psychology, or much else.

You made certain allegations, and since you did so on a discussion board, one would assume that you actually want to have a discussion.

Your allegations have been challenged, specifically due to vagueness, impracticality and simple lack of knowledge and expertise.

You are free to substantiate and further explain you claims and remarks and challenge my criticisms, or not, as you see fit. People will judge them, and mine, accordingly.

[George II]

92. Since it's only happened once, even in 2014 it's not a "common occurrance"...

...and there's no evidence yet whether the policeman shot "on impulse" or not.

[George II]

86. They didn't fail at all...

...read through the entire discussion and the article.

That playground is a known gang hangout. The person was told to raise his hands (THAT is part of "securing a scene"!!!), but instead he reached into his waistband for his "gun".

He didn't know that the gun was a toy.
He didn't know the age or intention of the person he shot.
He didn't know that the person with the gun was not a gang member.

But he was a policeman, so he was evil.

All this "Monday morning quarterbacking" is easy to do here, but I wonder how many people responding here have had a gun waved at them, real or fake, and how they would act if that did happen to them.

[Ash_F]

91. How do you know he was reaching for his waistband?

Because the man that killed him said so?

hmmmmm..

[Blue_Tires]

112. Not if it's a black celebrity, I can tell you that...

[FarPoint]

120. The more I think about your point...

I believe you could be right...

[ColesCountyDem]

30. This is tragic on so many levels.

I've been around firearms my entire life, and there is no way to tell at a glance whether or not these 'toy guns' are real. Sadly, a split second or two is all that police officer had to make a decision to shoot or not shoot. I'm quite sure that the officer didn't leave his home, clock in and think, "Hey, I think I'll shoot a 12 year-old kid today!".

Why these realistic 'toys' are even allowed to be legally manufactured is beyond me!

[smiley]

40. shoot first

and ask questions later. That is what seems to me, to have occurred here.

[GGJohn]

50. Absolute bullshit.

That's not what happened here, try actually reading the story.

[smiley]

107. I did

and I came to the same conclusion. Sorry if my opinion differs from yours. Have a great day!

[Darb]

109. giving cover to cops killing unarmed kids is

what he does best. It's truly lower than a snake's ass.

[smiley]

111. that...

certainly does seem to be the case.

[GGJohn]

116. Not unarmed as far as the responding officers knew,

but you knew that considering how many times I've corrected you.

[warrant46]

52. UPDATE the Murdered Child was Black I guess we should call this Ferguson # 2

The thug murdering cop was afraid of a little black 12 year old

The Cuyahoga County Medical Examiner has identified the 12-year-old boy as Tamir E. Rice.

MetroHealth Medical Center confirmed that Tamir died as a result of his injuries. Samaria Rice, Tamir's mother, has obtained an attorney, who from this point will be speaking as the family's representative.

[GGJohn]

56. The kid had a realistic looking gun in his waistband,

he was told to raise his arms, instead he reached for the gun, what was the cop supposed to do?
Wait until the kid pulled it?

[warrant46]

57. Someone removed the orange tip

I guess the cops will tell you that the junior set of armed robbers never use real guns in the armed robbery. They modify the Airsoft piece as a work tool.

[GGJohn]

59. Sorry for getting snippy,

I know there are alot of instances of wrongdoing by cops, killing unarmed black americans, lying to cover up crimes, etc, however, that doesn't seem to be the case here.

[Aerows]

69. It's not like 2 twelve year olds didn't

kill 5 people and wounded 2 in a massacre at a school, either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitchell_Johnson_and_Andrew_Golden

Who the hell knows what a kid with a gun on a playground where there are other kids are is going to do in this day and age.

[George II]

65. "The thug murdering cop was afraid of a little black 12 year old"?????

Jaylen Fryberg was only 15, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were only 17.

[Aerows]

70. These 2 were 12 when they murdered 5 and wounded several at a school.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitchell_Johnson_and_Andrew_Golden

[orleans]

66. did you see ohiochick's post upthread

with the news video?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=950873

apparently this park was a local gang hangout. at the end of the video the reporter says gang members behind bars range from ages 13 to ?? (i forget) but the youngest *behind bars* is 13!!

AND this kid was told to put his hands in the air. so he reached for his gun instead.


your comment of "cop was afraid of a little black 12 year old" not only sounds racist but you're making it sound like the cop shot a four year old!

don't forget this was a 12 yr old (a year younger than one of the local gang members who is "behind bars&quot who was waving the gun around, frightening people, disobeyed the cop when told to put his hands in the air, and then proceeded to reach for the gun!

[warrant46]

68. I did now

But a gang hideout---wow I guess the child never had a chance to grow up or even have a chance to get his life together

[GGJohn]

71. So true.

It's a sad state of affairs that many of our children never get a chance to have a normal childhood, especially in gang infested neighborhoods.

[branford]

73. The orange marker was probably removed from the Airsoft so the boy

could look and feel like his "role models" from the gang at the playground.

The more we learn about the incident, the more tragic and inevitable the outcome appeared to be.

BTW, although race does not appear to have played any role in the shootings, do we know the race of either of the two officers. If they were black, it might dispel any Ferguson V.2 myths.

[orleans]

76. i was thinking the same thing about emulating role models

on edit: some fucking role models

but what can you do about that?

[Blue_Tires]

113. I don't believe one word of that "reached for his gun"

unless there is video of it somewhere

[GGJohn]

117. There is a video of it,

a surveillance camera in the area caught the whole incident and should be released soon.

[GOLGO 13]

96. That thing looks plenty real to everybody

If you can tell us how you "know" that's a toy then please tell us how you know?

[erpowers]

102. This Is Sad

Even if this young boy was waving the gun at people and even if he pointed the gun at the police; this was a child. I am pretty sure the police were able to tell this was a child with a gun. There was no reason to fatally shoot him. The police could have easily shot the kid in the hand, or in the leg. They could have even gone as far as to talk the kid into dropping the gun.

I also do not want to hear the mother, or parents of this child blamed. I do not want to hear the community, culture, or race blamed. This was a child. We all know children do stupid things. No child should have to suffer such high consequences just for making stupid mistake/decision.

[Duckhunter935]

103. this is a younger child

Robert Sandifer

Early life

Robert Sandifer was born on March 12, 1983. Sandifer's mother, Lorina Sandifer, had a history of over 30 misdemeanor arrests, many of which were drug related. Sandifer's father, Robert Akins, was absent for all of Sandifer's life due to incarceration. Sandifer was, according to child welfare authorities, severely mistreated and neglected. Before he was 3, Sandifer was already known to Department of Children and Family Services (DCFS). Sandifer was alleged to have had cigarette burns on his arms and neck as well as linear bruising consistent with physical beatings. In 1986, Sandifer and his siblings were removed from his mother's home by DCFS and were sent to live with their grandmother. His grandmother's residence contained as many as 19 children on some occasions. By most accounts, his grandmother's home was not much better than Sandifer's previous home. Sandifer, by the age 8, quit attending school and began to roam the streets stealing cars and breaking into houses. In 1993, Sandifer and his siblings were removed from his grandmother's home and were sent to the Lawrence Hall DCFS shelter on Chicago's north side, from which Sandifer ran away and never returned. From 1993 until his death, Sandifer's whereabouts and living arrangements remain unclear, although he continued to be arrested by the authorities.[6]

Criminal behavior

Yummy was known for bullying and extorting money from local children and the community in the Chicago neighborhood of Roseland. He liked luxury cars and, remarkably, was able to drive them despite his small stature. Many of his 23 felonies and 5 misdemeanors were committed in the course of running errands for street gangs. The penal system had no way to keep him out of trouble and the courts were helpless to lock him away because he was too young for juvenile detention and too dangerous to be placed with children his age.

Death

On August 28, 1994, Sandifer began harassing locals from his neighborhood. He opened fire several times with a 9 millimeter semiautomatic pistol, striking several youths. Sandifer quickly fled the scene. Shavon Dean, age 14, later died from her gunshot wounds. The crime spree made national headlines. The nation was shocked by the brutality of the crime and the fact that the alleged perpetrator was only 11 years old. The Chicago Police began a manhunt for Sandifer. According to Sgt. Ronald Palmer, of the Chicago Police, Sandifer's actions were a gang initiation gone wrong. On Wednesday, August 31, while still in hiding, Sandifer was met by brothers Cragg and Derrick Hardaway, ages 16 and 14, members of the Black Disciples street gang. Sandifer was told he was being taken some place safe and ordered into a waiting car. Instead, he was brought to a viaduct underpass and told to get on his knees. While on his knees, he was shot twice in the back of his head by Cragg and Derrick Hardaway. Sandifer's body was discovered by the Chicago Police Department in the early morning of September 1. Both Cragg and Derrick Hardaway were later convicted of Sandifer's murder.[7] Sandifer's funeral was held at the Youth Center Church of God in Christ in Chicago's Northwest Side. [8]

"I also do not want to hear the mother, or parents of this child blamed. I do not want to hear the community, culture, or race blamed."

Who should be blamed for this child's actions?

[erpowers]

105. Totally Different cases

In one case a child was playing with a toy gun and had not shot at anyone. In addition, it had been reported the police were told the gun was most likely a toy. Furthermore, one child was shot by the police. The police could have handled the situation better. No parent, family, community, or culture should be blamed for a 12 year old child making the mistake of pulling a toy gun from his pants, or pointing a toy gun at police officers.

As far as Robert Sandifer, yes, he had bad parents, but the system also failed him. He should have been taken from his mother's home much sooner. There was no reason he should have been put with his grandmother when there were as many as 19 kids in her home. Even if he had to be put with non-relatives he should have been put in a better situation.

[Duckhunter935]

106. Yep 12 and 13 year old children

Have used real guns to kill people. They should not be playing with look alike real guns. It is also reported that the responding officer did not have that information about a possibly being a toy. We shall see what the video shows I hope, and get all of the answers then.

[GGJohn]

119. Shoot him in the hand or leg?

Are you serious? This ain't a Hollywood movie, those appendages are extremely hard to hit, especially under stressful conditions, cops are trained to shoot center mass, not arms, not legs, not head, but the torso, the biggest part of the body.

[Darb]

110. It was justified, kid deserved to die, obviously.

That's sarcasm, but many folks around here think it's accurate or close to. I won't name names.

[GGJohn]

118. That's a lie and you well know it.

Nobody has said the kid deserved it, but when you reach for, what appeared to the officers, a gun, bad things happen.
But, again, you know this because I've corrected you many, many, many times.