Police: Video of officer shooting boy is 'clear'

[Omaha Steve]

Source: AP-Excite

By JOHN P. COYNE and KANTELE FRANKO

CLEVELAND (AP) — A Cleveland officer was less than 10 feet away when he fatally shot a 12-year-old boy carrying a pellet gun near a playground, and video of the shooting is clear about what happened, police said Monday.

The boy was confronted Saturday by officers responding to a 911 call about a male who appeared to be pulling a gun in and out of his pants.

The 911 caller said the gun was "probably fake," then added, "I don't know if it's real or not." Deputy Chief Edward Tomba said Monday that he didn't know whether a dispatcher shared that information with responding officers.

The president of the Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association has said the officers weren't told the caller thought the gun might be fake.

FULL story at link.



This undated photo provided by the family's attorney shows Tamir Rice. Rice, 12, was fatally shot by police in Cleveland after brandishing what turned out to be a replica gun, triggering an investigation into his death and a legislator's call for such weapons to be brightly colored or bear special markings. (AP Photo/Courtesy Richardson & Kucharski Co., L.P.A.)


Read more: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20141124/us--cleveland_police_shoot_boy-199997533f.html

[uppityperson]

1. They need to release the video because trust in what the police say is pretty poor.

[GGJohn]

3. +1000.

[FarPoint]

9. I have my doubt's that the tapes will go public anytime soon.

Based upon the Ohio Walmart police shooting in August, Atty General Mike DeWine held onto the tapes for grand jury review...Oh, yes, prosecution witnesses also had access without fuss...

[savalez]

29. Didn't the AG essentially convince the grand jury to not charge the officer?

The victim not only had a Walmart product in his hand, but he was using it as a crutch while on his cell phone and then said "it's not real" just before he was shot. How that officer went unpunished is a mystery.

[FarPoint]

32. That is correct.

Sad day for justice.

[ColesCountyDem]

2. If the telecommunicator didn't mention that it was 'probably fake'...

... that does tend to change things a bit.

[ManiacJoe]

15. Actually it does not change anything.

Saying "it might be fake" is the same as saying "it might be real".

If the weapon looks real, it will be correctly treated as real, until it is later proven to be fake. That "later" will be long after all the "drop the weapon" and "show me your hands" commands have been given the suspect is in handcuffs.

[ColesCountyDem]

17. It does change something.

It provides more information to the officer, information he may use in making his decision.

As a young man, I was a sheriff's deputy, and the belief that such information would 'not change anything' is naive.

[ManiacJoe]

18. OK, so state your case.

What extra info does it provide?

[happyslug]

19. That the person who reported the kid with a gun thought it MAY be a fake...

That goes to the whole mind set of the officer going into the scene. If the report was just a teen with a gun, the officer will go in with the view that the teen may be dangerous and to delay pulling his own weapon and shooting may be fatal to the officer.

On the other hand "It may be fake" puts the officer on notice that the above MAY not be the case. In fact that the person calling in thought it may be fake is a good indication that the caller knows more then it is a kid with a gun. Thus the officer goes in with a completely different mind set, i.e. it may be a kid with a toy and thus wants confirmation if the gun is real or not before pulling and shooting.

Just a comment that that those words puts a different "Spin" on the story told to the officer and gives the officer a different way to view the situation.

[branford]

20. I think the officers' conduct already accounted for the "gun may be fake" scenario.

Upon identification of the boy with the gun, they ordered him to put his hands over his head. If the boy had complied, the officers would have been able to more safely approach and ascertain the nature of the gun and the boy's intentions. The officers' request under the circumstances was reasonable, easy to understand, and wholly expected if the boy had ever watched a single cop show on television or the movies. The police didn't just run into the playground and start shooting.

If the boy had followed the officers' instructions, he almost definitely would alive and well today.

[cheapdate]

24. Why do white, open-carry, stand-your-ground, gun nuts walk all over

the state of Ohio and none of them gets asked to put their hands over their heads or get shot, but a black kid with a fake gun gets shot and killed?

[branford]

25. Are you asking a serious question, and just making anti-gun snark.

First, a child, unlike and adult, cannot legally own, no less brandish, a handgun.

More importantly, the police were responding to a 911 call from a playground about someone waving around a gun. Context matters. When responding to a serious 911 call, an open carry individual will be questioned, and depending on the situation, may be ordered to raise his hands above his head and other restraints and limitations until the circumstances warranting the police presence are sorted out. Failure comply could easily result in a similar situation as the boy. In fact, that is one of the classic arguments in favor of concealed carry over open carry. Some anti-gun advocated have called for reporting to the police all instances of open carry despite the lack of any threatening behavior. That is the likely cause of the recent death of the man in Walmart who was only holding a BB gun.

[cheapdate]

26. Yes, I'm serious.

Hundreds and hundreds of activist, open-carry people have paraded around all across the state of Ohio carrying actual weapons. I'm sure that many phone calls have been made by concerned citizens. How many of them do you suppose have been asked to put their hands over their heads? How many of them have been gunned down and killed by police who believed they saw a sign of a threat?

Totally serious. White men with guns have shot and killed police officers all across the country.

There's a huge bias among white people to perceive people of color as a threat. This has been demonstrated very strongly and convincingly in social science research.

Totally serious.

[branford]

31. I answered you question, but again, context matters.

It is legal to open carry in some areas. It is illegal to brandish a firearm or threaten someone with it.

A 911 call about a parade of individuals openly carrying, without do anything else actually against the law, does not warrant any action. The numerous settlement pay-outs in Philadelphia illustrate this point. If someone with a gun, however, is acting very strangely or menacing, the police should, and will, inquire further, which will invariablynecessitate the disarming of the individual (likely beginning with "hands up&quot . Note that possession of a gun alone does not constitute "strangely" in a open carry jurisdiction. Common sense and knowledge of the law matters.

Some anti-gun proponents have advocated calling the police whenever someone open carries precisely to cause an incident like the one with the boy. Google the Walmart BB gun shooting for a discussion concerning the "success" of such stupid and lethal ideas.

In fact, due to the potential problems associated with open carrying, regardless of race, and acknowledging the fears of others, no matter how irrational, I personally oppose open carry laws. Except for circumstances like hunting or being at a target range, concealed carry more than adequately balances the need and right to arm oneself for self-defense without causing any needless panic.

[sarisataka]

39. Some anti gun proponents

Not only advocate calling police but have specific ideas what the police should do:

2. I have often wondered about that, it should be assumed that they are potential terrorists

Maybe if a few of these jackasses get taken down maybe some of the others stop being such assholes.

Gun owners in general are cowards, one or two times should be enough to have them cowering under their bed.


9. Takes mere seconds to un-sling and shoot.

I say shoot them on sight , just to be safe. No sane person would carry a rifle around a grocery store. Only the insane and the criminally motivated. So, again, I say shoot them on sight, let their bodies rot in the streets as a message to other hell-bent gunners.

Nothing but good could come of this.


10. Nonsense.

That gun can be readied and fired in only seconds. Best to just shoot them.

FWIW I agree with your take on open carry. If you're in the middle of BFE, go ahead; in an urban area keep it concealed.

[billhicks76]

27. Total BS Answer

White people carry automatic weapons to protests to incite a reaction and nothing happens. This is racism pure and simple. When have racists ever admitted they were wrong? Never.

[branford]

33. Are you really calling me a racist?

No matter.

First, the individuals you reference are not carry around automatic weapons at the protests. They are semi-automatic, usually very conspicuous rifles, a very substantial difference, both legally and functionally. If you're going to opine about firearms issues, kindly have the courtesy to at least have basic knowledge of the relevant items.

Second, if open carry by adults is legal in a particular area, and individuals are lawfully and peacefully marching in support of their 2A rights and the law, what is the problem? What laws have they purportedly broken, other than making those who oppose guns uncomfortable. However, if one or more of the individuals started pointing their weapons at people, or anything similar, you can be damn sure the police would quickly intervene, whatever their race.

Additionally, if you look carefully, there are often minorities at many of these marches. Do you recall a year or so ago when MSNBC actually edited out the minorities in the open carry march videos?

Lastly, as I indicated in an earlier post in this thread, I find open carry foolish, counterproductive to 2A rights, and I'm surprised that "misunderstanding" have not led to far more dead citizens. Concealed carry meets all the self-defense needs without causing unnecessary public discomfort or related claims of racial incidents or bias as you suggest.

[noiretextatique]

43. if the shoe fits

put it on.

[branford]

46. I guess everyone who isn't with you, is against you . . . nt

[noiretextatique]

47. no...murderers are against me

thank goodness.

[branford]

54. Now I'm a murderer and a racist?

Do I also cause cancer, or maybe I was the JFK second shooter?

[billhicks76]

45. No...The System Is Racist And Corrupt

That's obvious

[ManiacJoe]

21. Can't say I buy into the theory.

If a responding officer treats a call about "kid with gun" and "kid with possibly-fake gun" as two different ways, then he needs to go back for a training refresher. Correctly trained, the officer needs to properly identify the object that is the possible weapon. If the object looks like a real weapon, it need to be dealt with as a real weapon. If the object appears to be something other than a real weapon, then it needs to be dealt with accordingly. Until the object is reasonably identified -- note that "reasonably" is not the same as "accurately" -- the use of lethal force is not appropriate.

[ColesCountyDem]

35. How long were you on the job, or are you an 'armchair expert'? n/t

[branford]

37. What are you expert police procedure and tactical qualifications? nt

[ColesCountyDem]

38. I spent six years on the job, so yes, I'd say I'm something of an expert.

How long did you spend on the job?

[branford]

41. I'm not precisely an expert on police tactical procedure.

However, I've been a trial attorney for 17 years, including work for police unions, and previous to that, I worked at the National Institute of Justice, U.S. Department of Justice, researching numerous criminal law matters.

While I may lack certain practical tactical bona fides, I easily have an expert knowledge of the relevant law concerning this incident, and its application and implications.

Based on your own knowledge and experience, if the officers' account is true, and based only on what they knew at the time, should they face any discipline or criminal charges, and if so, what did they do wrong to warrant such sanction?

[ColesCountyDem]

44. Based on the officer was told, I'd say his actions were likely proper.

Absent clear and convincing evidence to the contrary, I have no reason to doubt the officer's actions. My objection lies in the fact that the officer was NOT told PRECISELY what the 911 caller told the telecommunicator.

[branford]

51. Then we appear to be in relative accord.

Make no mistake, I, too, would have preferred that the officers have all information then available before their encounter with the boy. It certainly could not have worsened the situation.

It might actually have made some small difference, but I'm not entirely sure it would have changed the ultimate outcome. The caller apparently did not know if the weapon was real, and any assumption that it definitely was not, could result in dead children at the playground, in addition to the officers and any adult bystanders. What would people be saying now if the gun was real, and the officers' hesitation permitted the boy to shoot other children.

The officers also didn't exactly go in shooting. I read that when the officers requested the boy place his hands over his head, they were just 10 feet from him, and rather than comply, he reached for his waistband where the gun was located.

The incident quite likely could have been prevented and the tragedy averted. However, many mistakes were made long before the police were called (e.g., removing the orange plug, lack of supervision, etc.), but with the boy's alleged failure to comply while possibly reaching for the weapon, the terrible outcome seemed all but certain.

[ManiacJoe]

49. My "armchair qualifications" probably exactly match yours.

Since our training differs, our assumptions about the value of some data also seems to differ. No problems here.

I agree, the dispatcher should have been relaying all the know info. Too much info is better than not enough info.

[noiretextatique]

48. of course, it does not depend on whether a black kind or white kid is holding a bb gun

eom

[ManiacJoe]

50. I agree, the kid's skin color does not matter.

Unfortunately, others wrongly thing that it does matter.

[ColesCountyDem]

36. "That goes to the whole mind set of the officer going into the scene"....

Exactly!

[ColesCountyDem]

34. It's rather obvious what extra info it provides.

The caller honestly thinks it's not a real firearm. When I see the 12 year-old ( and he looked 12 years-old ) and also know that information, it may change my perception of any actions he may make.

[ManiacJoe]

53. Can't say I am surprised that

you would make this baseless statement.

I do understand why the kid was shot. I do understand what actions could have been taken by the kid to prevent it. I do understand that given more info, the cops might have handled things differently. I also believe that the outcome would not have changed much without major changes in the kid's interaction with the cops.

[mahannah]

4. “Toy” guns need to be manufactured in bright, non-realistic colors.

Current stock on shelves should be destroyed.

[Duckhunter935]

6. that would be nice

but a can of matte black spray paint can work wonders. Not to mention painting a real weapon in bright non-realistic colors is possible to confuse police officers.

It should be a very expensive 500-25000 dollar fine to remove the orange tips that are already mandated. It also needs to be advertised and heavily enforced.

[mahannah]

8. Need to start somewhere. "Orange tips" are useless.

[eggplant]

11. I wonder if you can add the orange tip to a real gun...

...for the opposite effect.

[PeoViejo]

13. That's why it's pointless

All a criminal needs are those few seconds of indecision. Peeps need to wise-up and not play around with replica guns.

[Adrahil]

23. Yes. There's an asshole who shoots at a local range...

Who paints the muzzles of all his guns bright orange. He thinks it's hilarious. He also has truck nuts on his truck, so you get what kind of guy he is. I don't shoot at that range any more.

[freshwest]

10. I thought they'd done this already. They need to do it. Agree with your post.

[ManiacJoe]

12. Unfortunately, real guns can be made in bright "non-realistic" colors, too.

“Toy” guns need to be manufactured in bright, non-realistic colors.

Fortunately, most gun manufacturers do not do that.

[markpkessinger]

14. Can be, and indeed are . . .

`http://globalgrind.com/2013/02/06/real-guns-look-like-toys-photos/

?w=540&h=389

[markpkessinger]

16. These are all real guns . . .

http://globalgrind.com/2013/02/06/real-guns-look-like-toys-photos/

?w=540&h=389

[branford]

22. The Hello Kitty gun seems like a disaster waiting to happen.

I'm curious if the owner of the gun also keeps the bleach and ammonia in her house if cute Snoopy and Pokemon bottles.

[billhicks76]

28. But If You Sell Marijuana Edibles

They can't have bright colors because that may appeal to children. A non-toxic herb with zero overdoses in recorded history gets over-regulated by hypocritical republicans who never apply their own rules to themselves.

[Duckhunter935]

5. the video and

radio traffic needs to be released

[branford]

7. I've certainly given the police the benefit of the doubt,

but even I would like to see the video for myself.

Of course, I have no objection to blacking-out the child's wounds and outer related portions in sensitivity to the family.

I would also like to know if there are any other videos. I would think that some of the bystanders would have caught portions of the incident on their cell phones, and were the officers wearing cameras or mics.

[savalez]

30. I had a feeling the kid was going to be black.

Let me guess, white officer?

[noiretextatique]

42. just another coincidence

not that police have open season on black people or anything. that would mean we are a lawless nation of racist assholes.

[Odin2005]

52. Playing while black.

If he would have been a white kid the cops would have just asked the kid why he was playing with a real gun and ask where his parents were. The kid would tell the cops that it was a toy and then the cops would remind the parents that toy guns are supposed to have bright orange knobs on them.

[Calista241]

55. I may be wrong, but it seems to me the cops

Are killing a lot more people now than they were a few years ago. Of course it's all self defense, but why the change in numbers?