It's law now: 'No Social Security for Nazis'

[Omaha Steve]

Source: AP-Excite

By RICHARD LARDNER, DAVID RISING and RANDY HERSCHAFT

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Barack Obama on Thursday capped a swift and forceful response to an Associated Press investigation by signing into law a measure that bars suspected Nazi war criminals from receiving U.S. Social Security benefits.

The AP's investigation, which was the impetus for the No Social Security for Nazis Act, found that dozens of former Nazis collected millions of dollars in retirement benefits after being forced to leave the United States. Recipients ranged from the SS guards who patrolled the Third Reich's network of camps where millions of Jews died to a rocket scientist who helped develop the V-2 rocket that Nazi Germany used to attack London.

The speed with which the legislation moved underscored the outrage the AP's findings triggered among lawmakers on Capitol Hill — and American taxpayers. The House unanimously approved the bill Dec. 2 and the Senate passed it by voice vote just two days later.

Mike King, a Vietnam veteran and a retired police officer in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, gets a Social Security check of $900 a month. That's less than half of what he could be getting based on his years in the workforce. But his benefits are reduced because of a rule that docks retirees who simultaneously collect a public pension. It's "appalling," he said, that former Nazis collected benefits when he and others in his position are forced to accept less.

FULL story at link.



FILE - In this Dec. 12, 2014 file photo, President Barack Obama speaks in the Roosevelt Room of the White House in Washington. President Barack Obama on Thursday capped a swift and forceful response to an Associated Press investigation by signing into law a measure that bars suspected Nazi war criminals from receiving U.S. Social Security benefits. AP{2019}s investigation, which was the impetus for the No Social Security for Nazis Act, found that dozens of former Nazis collected millions of dollars in retirement benefits after being forced to leave the United States. Recipients ranged from the SS guards who patrolled the Third Reich{2019}s network of camps where millions of Jews died to a rocket scientist who helped develop the V-2 rocket that Nazi Germany used to attack London. (AP Photo/Jacquelyn Martin, File)

Read more: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20141219/us-nazi-social-security-a1fc063a33.html

[tularetom]

1. Sorry, but I can't believe this is a big deal

How many of these guys are still alive?

And what's with the "suspected"? You don't have to actually BE a Nazi war criminal to lose your benefits, just be suspected of it?

On the other hand maybe it can someday applied to former Vice Presidents of the US.

[Quasimodem]

19. Guess What?

Rick Perry has the names of 318 million suspected American Nazi war criminals in his briefcase.

[cosmicone]

22. and he can name 317 million of them .. the other million will stump him n/t

[former9thward]

27. How many still alive?

Probably nobody, which is why it passed so easily.

[unrepentant progress]

51. Yep. It's pretty much a self correcting problem.

In so far as it's a "problem" to begin with.

[Xithras]

64. The law impacts precisely FOUR people.

While the original article talks about the AP investigation that found "dozens" of suspected Nazi war criminals getting SS, the new law only strips benefits from people who have been expelled from the United States for Nazi war crimes and who were convicted of carrying them out. Only 10 Americans have ever been deported and convicted this way, and only four of those are still alive.

FWIW, I realize this is an older post, but someone else just bumped the thread and I noticed that nobody ever clarified that point.

[Blue_Adept]

2. Did anyone hear of this before this?

I keep up on things pretty well, but this is the first I've seen of it. It certainly hasn't spurred the kind of outrage that the article suggests.

And frankly, if we employed a lot of them for things like the rockets, then they deserve what they were supposed to get for that work.

[Omaha Steve]

6. I had 3 posts in LBN alone: Expelled Nazis got millions in Social Security

This was the first that broke the story.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014923007

Source: AP-EXCITE

By DAVID RISING, RANDY HERSCHAFT and RICHARD LARDNER

OSIJEK, Croatia (AP) — Dozens of suspected Nazi war criminals and SS guards collected millions of dollars in U.S. Social Security benefits after being forced out of the United States, an Associated Press investigation has found.

The payments, underwritten by American taxpayers, flowed through a legal loophole that gave the U.S. Justice Department leverage to persuade Nazi suspects to leave the U.S. If they agreed to go, or simply fled before deportation, they could keep their Social Security, according to interviews and internal U.S. government records.

Among those receiving benefits were armed SS troops who guarded the network of Nazi camps where millions of Jews perished; a rocket scientist who used slave laborers to advance his research in the Third Reich; and a Nazi collaborator who engineered the arrest and execution of thousands of Jews in Poland.

There are at least four living beneficiaries. They include Martin Hartmann, a former SS guard at the Sachsenhausen camp in Germany, and Jakob Denzinger, who patrolled the grounds at the Auschwitz camp complex in Poland.

FULL story at link.

[Blue_Adept]

7. Thanks

I don't get to LBN as often as I should sometimes, and that was in the midst of pre-election time so a lot of stuff got buried.

[NewDeal_Dem]

14. Key word: "got". It's 69 years since 1945. There are "4 living beneficiaries",

all of whom are probably 85 or older and all of whom are apparently low-level workers.

What a farce.

I especially liked hearing from the American who gets $900 a month & is worried about Nazis getting more. Surely the problem has nothing to do with Nazis, but with the basic low level of benefits generally.

[riversedge]

52. " There are at least four living beneficiaries." guess I am

somewhat surprised that congress took time to develop a bill, etc for this.. But appearances do matter I suspose. Yet, the US has now gone back on its word once again.

[djean111]

3. Good, but somehow I can imagine Pete Peterson thinking - that's a good start. n/t

[Octafish]

4. How about federal pensions?

[yurbud]

50. that's a great toon

[Octafish]

55. Danziger pegged BFEE

[heaven05]

5. actually, on moral grounds, excellent

BUT, I will have to research...maybe...how many in the gilded, enlightened and recently refreshed halls of our democracy's legislative branch voted AGAINST THIS law? Therein lies the subject of my scorn.......query.......

[cstanleytech]

31. " actually, on moral grounds, excellent" Not really

as it should have been addressed decades ago but it wasnt because the US had former members of the Nazi party working for it in the varies rocket programs so they choose to ignore the issue until they were all dead.
So is it really moral? Nope, to late to claim its moral now imo.

[heaven05]

35. yeah, yeah

von Braun, never would have made it to the moon, yada, yada yada,......the nazis in postww2amerika....yeah, yeah that's known history....and well, in my book, better late than never...hell the nazis were always treated better in this country during the war and after than were it's own citizens(minority), the Japanese included. Wonder why? .....it wasn't addressed decades ago because look who was in charge...you point is moot.....Obama did the right thing and I would guess all the ones who voted against this law were......well, typical of a lot of the amerikkkan electorate today.

[OrwellwasRight]

40. Still not sure it's good thing.

I don't want Social Security for Nazis either. However, when our government brought them over and used their talents and told them they would not be prosecuted for being a Nazi, then it seems to be going back on its word. Isn't it a little late when someone is 85 to say, sorry you paid in to Social Security for all those years, but fuck you go die in the street? Yes, that was the attitude of a lots of Nazis toward Jews, LGBT peeps, communists, atheists, Roma, etc. But it is also true that a lot of "Nazis" were "go along to get along" cowards who joined the party but never did anything personally on the order to killing people. Do those people deserve to be thrown out into the street as a feeble, elderly person when they actually did pay into and earn SS? I'm not totally sure that is the moral answer.

I can imagine the law being challenged on two constitutional grounds:

1) Ex Post Facto: E.g. making it illegal to collect Social Security if you're a Nazi, but well after you made the choice to be a Nazi. Not fair. They can't go back and rewrite history and change the facts now to make themselves meet the new criteria.

2) Bill of Attainder: If the law only targeted four actual people, you could say it was directed at them, and directed to remove from them a particular government benefit (the right to collect Social Security), they might be able to argue it is an illegal bill of attainder.

More importantly, however, is this:

What does this mean for other "undesirables"? Who is next to lose his or her Social Security benefits? Sex offenders? Murderers? "Terrorists"? "Communists"? "Strong-Arm Robbers"? What is the standard by which people will be branded as ineligible? It is a slippery slope. And I am not interested to see where it goes.

[heaven05]

56. Hey they will and do have their supporters here

as exemplified by your defense of their background. Okay. I still stand by what I said. Hell, america been going back on its word to the native-American peoples since the beginning. I was thinking today in a quiet moment how fucking outrageous it was that black people even had to fight for their rights to be an american while nazis had their citizenship given to them. They might have had to fight some anti-german bigotry and hate but they never had to fight segregation, had to fight lynchings and vicious violent racism and given the RECENT roll back of voting and civil rights pertaining to black, poor people, I'd say that's going back on your word, again. And after Jan 2015, it will be, for a lot of struggling americans, a hell of a lot worse and it still won't affect the nazis. I could care less about some 80 year old nazi, when black people are losing their lives in the streets of america,while unarmed, shot down by murderers with badges. Native-americans are STILL losing their sacred tribal lands to the rich of this country. That's going back on your word, but with the broken treaty's down through the generations that has always exemplified, with me knowing our history, going back on their word time and again, it's to be expected. With those thoughts in mind, I just don't care about fairness to some nazi.

[OrwellwasRight]

57. You ignored where I said:

"More importantly, however, is this:

What does this mean for other "undesirables"? Who is next to lose his or her Social Security benefits? Sex offenders? Murderers? "Terrorists"? "Communists"? "Strong-Arm Robbers"? What is the standard by which people will be branded as ineligible? It is a slippery slope. And I am not interested to see where it goes."

[heaven05]

59. I DID NOT ignore that statement

I just don't care to hear about how some poor nazi is getting 'unfair' treatment. That statement doesn't have merit, because those people you mentioned WILL never lose their rights to get SSI if they worked long enough to be eligible. I Just don't have any patience with hand wringing about the poor old nazis, when one of those you mentioned, I guess because Michael Brown who was an alleged "strong armed robber", never had a chance to go straight and work long enough to be eligible for SSI because he is dead, executed by a racist system in america that has continually gone back on it's word to 'serve and protect', all, that includes minorities. Nope no sympathy for the nazis.

[OrwellwasRight]

60. Excuse me?

And on what do you base the conclusion "those people you mentioned WILL never lose their rights to get SSI if they worked long enough to be eligible"?

Once we take away the rights of some people who worked for Social Security, the line has been crossed. Of course Congress can take it away from other people who earned it too.

There was a period back around 2009, if I recall correctly, in which the Republicans attached a amendment to just about every bill that passed the House that made "sex offenders" ineligible to receive jobs, federal housing assistance, etc. etc. --> ineligible to receive just about any positive thing the House was doing at that time. Sure, no one likes "sex offenders" either, but what about those wrongly convicted, or who genuinely made a mistake about someone's age and committed "statutory rape" and is not a true predator? Do we really want to set up our society to ensure that whoever is the most reviled at the moment is denied the rights and privileges other citizens get, even if they have already served their time in jail and otherwise upheld their end of the bargain? It's a slippery slope no matter how anti-Nazi you are.

Think about how the Nazis themselves operated -- by denying the rights and privileges of citizens to reviled and unpopular groups. Not a great model to copy.

It's always easy not to defend the rights of the unpopular--this is why no one in Congress defended the Nazis when this bill was being considered, I mean, who would? I just hope that if the universe of the unpopular ever extends to you or me, that there is someone available and willing to defend us.

[onehandle]

8. How about a 'No Social Security Benefits For Republicans' law? nt

[malthaussen]

9. I'm sure the three remainin Nazis on SS are devastated...

... a little late on that one, doncha think?

-- Mal

[NewDeal_Dem]

15. +1

[heaven05]

36. tell that to

roosevelt, truman, eisenhower, kennedy, lbj, nixon/ford, carter reaygu, bush sr., clinton, bush jr....at least one got it done on his watch.

[Sancho]

10. Hmmm...a bit hypocritical...

I have an elderly, retired neighbor who was an engineer and rocket scientist recruited to the US after WWII. He won't tell details and slips in some comments standing around the mailbox, but apparently he was part of the Nazi war machine building V2's or whatever. He was moved to the US through South America somehow. He got a career and pension so that we could compete with the USSR. Of course he married an American and seems pretty tame now. His daughter and grandkids are very nice.

I'm sure that all the Allies separated the Nazis who were captured into "useful" or "not useful". Some were prosecuted, some escaped, and some given offers.

I don't know the details, and I doubt anyone really knows what happened, but this seems more show than substance.

[NewDeal_Dem]

16. and how old is your neighbor?

[Sancho]

30. Probably in his 90's. He's pretty frail now.

We've been here more than 20 years and he was long retired when we got here.

He wanders out every now and then. He told me a few times about working on electrical and guidance systems of rockets in the 50's and 60's. He's had visitors from Germany a few times, but not lately.

A while back he mentioned working as a "flight engineer", being "moved" to South America and then to the US, spending time learning English and some projects in Boston at MIT, and working for the US early rocket and jet programs. In the 60's and 70's Clearwater was where they built parts of nuclear bombs (triggers and things). Maybe that's how he got here - I really don't know. I seem to recall him mentioning wanting to avoid being Russian. I think he said something like he was glad to be in Western Germany nearer the Americans - so I inferred he was captured or surrendered or escaped Germany.

He never talked about specifics, and I have no idea about what he did in Germany, but I think he was moved to the US in the late 40's, because he married in the US and his daughter must have been born in the 50's. She's a lawyer. The grandkids come over and they are out of college I think.

This thread has me curious, so the next time I see him I'll see if he'll tell me more.

[NewDeal_Dem]

46. I'm sure if you ask, he'll tell you he's a former nazi on Social Security.

[Sancho]

49. haha...I doubt it

He's old, but still pretty sharp. OTOH, if I ask maybe he'll tell me more about how he got to the US.

[Sancho]

61. I just found this link...look at #4 (Operation Paperclip)

http://truthseekerdaily.com/2015/01/5-conspiracy-theories-which-turned-out-to-be-true/

[lumberjack_jeff]

11. Kabuki. n/t

[FiveGoodMen]

29. Absolutely

And that's all we ever get from our 'elected leaders'

[FLPanhandle]

12. The politicians must have been falling over themselves to vote against Nazi's.

Who would want it said during the next campaign "You voted to give Nazi's SS benefits"?

The bigger question is, did these suspected Nazi's pay into the SS program and should it be legal to withold SS benefits due to meer suspicions or someone's political beliefs?

I guess now that the door is open, we can start witholding SS benefits for anyone who has suspected terrorist ties/activities, or belongs to the wrong group, or whatever.

[Sunlei]

25. I think history records now catches up to the old money nazis, a couple we did ban from the USA for

a little while..but then for some reason the USA let them in. I would like to see their immigration papers.

Erich Koch (a high level Nazi official in charge of Prussia) invites Fred Koch to sell his oil in Nazi Germany when he is banned from doing business in the USA.

[NewDeal_Dem]

47. There's no relation between Ilse Koch & her husband Karl Koch and the

Dutch-American Koch family.

The story about Erich Koch partnering with Fred Koch appears to be invented out of whole cloth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Koch

Fred Koch made his money selling oil to the USSR, not the Nazis.

[OrwellwasRight]

41. This is my point exactly.

This is not a "justice for evil Nazis" bill. It is the first in a series of bills that will eventually strip away earned benefits from citizens deemed undesirable. i would have expected at least member of congress to get up and say that. Cowards.

[Mad-in-Mo]

13. Whew!

I'm so glad they got that pressing piece of work taken care of. Now the legislators can go have their Christmas break/holiday and sleep well.

[closeupready]

17. Good to see our Congress is actually doing stuff to helping struggling families.

There's an Indiana Jones joke in here somewhere...

[packman]

18. I would have been more impressed

to see the gov. excluding SS payments for American politicians who are acting like Nazis.

[Sunlei]

20. finally but most of the 20,000? nazis we let into the usa are probably long dead by now.

Bet they filled out fake 'immigration papers' that we will never see.

In America lie on papers IS a major crime?

[Kelvin Mace]

21. So, when are we cutting off Cheney's pension?

[Derek V]

28. ^WINNER!

[SoapBox]

23. Day late and dollar short.

Another dirty little secret that finally (!!!!!!!) was exposed.

So why didn't those "fiscally responsible" Pukes and Baggers take care of this year's ago?!?

[Octafish]

37. GEHLEN. Reinhard Gehlen.

The CIA and Nazi War Criminals

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB146/

[cosmicone]

24. I have mixed feelings about this

The benefits arise out of what they contributed as FICA - part of their paycheck.

At least give them the contributions back (less federal income tax of course)

[Ash_F]

39. I imagine they have recieved more than what they put in

Considering their limited stay in the US.

[OrwellwasRight]

42. Limited?

The USG started bringing Nazis here in 1945. That's longer than most DUers have probably been alive!

[Ash_F]

44. I see one stayed until 1989 and the other until 2007

I previously read that is was part of a deal to get them to leave the country, and assumed it was done shortly after the war. I am surprised they took so long to get them out.

Why do Nazis get such sweet deals?

[OrwellwasRight]

45. It's ugly, but that is the US government.

Fear of the Soviet Union was more serious than those of us who didn't live it can imagine, so US made morally questionable choices about sneaking thousands of "useful" Nazis into the country where they didn't receive punishment. Instead they received positions in academia, govt and private sector where "we" could use their nuclear, rocketry, mechanical, chemical, intelligence ad other expertise, to be sure they didn't go hand over all their talents to the Soviets. It's not pretty but there it is.

I find it a little disconcerting that my government, after purposely bringing these people here and letting them contribute to our economy, etc. would then say to octogenarians: Surprise! You don't get that retirement benefit we promised you.

And worse yet is the precedent that you can have your Social Security benefits taken away. Who's next?

[dpbrown]

26. 1. It's wrong to do this to "suspects". 2. It's about 50 years too late.

What happened to innocent until proven guilty? This is the same as taking away property before someone has been convicted, and it should be eschewed. Secondly, where was this kind of law before all these Nazis died? Really, who cares, now that 99% of all participants in WWII are dead?

[jtuck004]

32. If you are a Klan member, however, or a cop that killed a black kid, or a banker that donated

to the party but were responsible for destroying the lives of millions of people, you have nothing to worry about. Heck, we will even send you money for bonuses.

Besides, we need the money we would otherwise pay to some 90 year old who can't hurt us any longer to pay for drones to blow the arms and legs off of innocent kids in Pakistan.

"Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International issued a pair of reports in October fiercely criticizing the secrecy that shrouds the administration's drone program, and calling for investigations into the deaths of drone victims with no apparent connection to terrorism. In Pakistan alone, TBIJ estimates, between 416 and 951 civilians, including 168 to 200 children, have been killed."
Here.

'Cause Nazis are scary,

[yurbud]

33. the cop is a crucial if unrelated topic: punishing public employees for "double dipping"

Our government pensions should have the same status as private work pensions and not have any effect on our Social Security benefits.

In my case, I can EITHER contribute to and later collect Social Security OR my public pension, but not both.

[DeSwiss]

34. ....

- While we're cutting them off SSA benefits, we probably should be paying them royalties for using their form of governance. Definitely surveillance and torture royalties....

[Kaleva]

38. A link to an where it is stated that this would affect about 4 people.

"Four World War Two suspects are said to still be alive and collecting benefits."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-29694228

[JonLP24]

43. What about other war criminals?

[NewDeal_Dem]

48. Have to wait 70 more years to cut off their benefits.

[Kablooie]

53. Of course they waited until all the Nazis were dead before making this law.

We've got such a fantastic government.

[Historic NY]

54. Took long enough, didn't it.

[jmowreader]

58. Does that go for their descendants too?

Probably not; the Constitution forbids working corruption of blood, otherwise the Bush family, in toto, would be shit out of luck.

[LiberalFighter]

62. That dumb ass police officer is only receiving $900 from Social Security because

his state or city likely opted out or he might have personally opted out at some point or opted in during his service. When the govt or person opted out what he had been paying into his Social Security would had been going towards his pension. Except for some exceptions workers have to pay into Social Security to collect benefits.

According to one source 27.5% of local and state public sector workers were not covered.

Someone should had also asked him how much he received from his police pension.

I'm guessing the guy might have opted out himself and now wants the government to help support him better.

[polynomial]

63. Murder or torture to silence taking of power

The millennium argument “ What is Nazi “ That secret society called the SS the Nazi secret police, commanding the regular army.

A very, very, dangerous social structure tailored around terror and torture.

America has a defiance, a socially corrupted election in Bush and Cheney they did what they did, or they would do it again is a sick culture.

The theme of Nazi is Antithetical to America’s basic Constitutional values.

However, how to splice and parse those entangled makes for interesting conversations.

The Bush Family has long time ties to the Railroad mogul Harriman connected to Nazi. The Union Pacific that developed the Sun Valley resort designed by Nazi.

WWII financial support to Nazi Hitler via Prescott Bush, and many American business.

Or the Bush family ties to the Bin Laden business partnerships silenced by media for decades. We know the Arabs would like to ground zero Israel. That makes them suspect Nazi. Besides the Arabs consider Americans as infidels that should be wiped off the earth too.

An interesting Book by Dan Brown called the Da Vinci Code example icons and secret societies that murder to silence the taking of power or leverage in government religion and business. The Da Vinci Code with Dan Browns sifted narration is helping me to understand what is so wrong with our own government, especially the police system.

America is wildly corrupt at the top…