Is College Worth It Anymore?

[joebaur42]

It's a question that's been on the minds of Americans across the country ever since Romney-pest, Rick Santorum, bravely chastised President Obama over his insistence that everyone go to a 4-year school. (A quick Google search disproves Santorum's wording of the President's position. But it's still brave-ish).

Read more at MildlyRelevant.com.

[seabeyond]

1. on the one hand i ask. on the other, there are not blue collar jobs, so what are

the options.

i know with sons approaching college years and looking at the costs, we are addressing what would be a viable degree in the future. neither have a set mind or passion on what they want to do. so we look at what they are good at, can look at doing that will still be open in decades to come.

[izquierdista]

2. Education is always worth it

It's the student loans to get that education that are the bad deal.

[PassingFair]

11. You need the loans to get the education.

My 45-year-old sister-in-law died last year, suffering from lung cancer.

She died under the crushing weight of student loans (getting her Master's Degree
in social work).

She died in her foreclosed upon home.

Maybe if she had lived into her 60's the gambit would have paid off...who knows?

The debt didn't kill her, but it made her death so much sadder.

She died in a haze of defeat.

[Coyote_Bandit]

3. In this country

we grossly overvalue education - particularly higher education.

A fair to average plumber or electrician will likely do better over their lifetime than someone who is college educated and finds themselves working call center jobs - and perhaps doing so sporadically as they face layoffs throughout their career. The college educated may earn less, they have the expense of financing that largely useless degree and they forego 4 or 5 years of employment.

College students of the 50s and 60s were well advised to go to school, work hard and get good grades so that they could get good jobs. But the returns on that investment of time, effort and $$$ have been diminishing since the 70s. Well over 50% of college grads today never work in a job related to their field of study. No economy - and particularly our kind of service economy - is capable of creating enough good paying white collar professional jobs (particularly the generic management and middle management kinds of jobs business programs seem to train our kids for) for all the college grads we churn out. We don't create many of those kinds of jobs - and the lucky ones who find themselves with these kinds of jobs tend to hold onto them and follow that professional career path until they retire.

But most everybody wants their kid to go to college so they can get a better job (whatever the hell that is). They discourage their kids from being self-employed or from pursuing blue collar (or, worse, agricultural) work.

The schools certainly want to sell the hope of a better future to get folks enrolled and to keep the tuition dollars rolling in. Same is true of the professors who find employment security in that enrollement. And having as many people as possible pursuing an education serves our broader economy by keeping all those students out of the work force for years (or only marginally employed). Most schools wash their hands of those grads and have very poor job placement programs. Even those who have stellar placement programs many be unable to assist their grads to find anything other than entry level positions immediately following graduation.

We also are under the illusion that if we send our kids to college that they will be "educated." It is quite possible to be "educated" in the sense of having critical thinking skills and being widely read without ever darkening the doors of an institution of higher education. It is also possible to have multiple college degrees and be utterly lacking in such education. This kind of education is acquired - and maintained - because one wants to have those skills and knowledge and is self-motivated enough to develop them. Cliff notes can get someone through college but they can never instruct or inform the beauty of a particular piece of literature.

I have a BA and 3 graduate/professional degrees (and a year in a tech program that was terminated before I had an opportunity to complete it) earned over a 20+ year period. My experience is such that I have concluded that there are only two reasons to go to college:

(1) You need a credential to get a particular job or have a particular career - and you have done the research to know that (a) you are suited for such a career and that (b) you either have (i) the resources to be self-employed in that career or (ii) it is likely that there will be sufficient employment opportunities available upon completion of your schooling for you to find employment. I've known fully licensed attorneys that drove UPS trucks and worked cosmetics counters because there were no jobs available and they did not have the resources to hang out their own shingle.

(2) You love to learn and want to be well educated and well read. An admirable cause and the best reason to enroll in college. But don't attach any career or employment expectations to your education. Don't expect an educational institution to do the work of a technical or trade school in preparing you for a career. They are not equipped to do that.

Millions of people take on debt to get an education and for virtually all of them that debt represents their hopes and dreams and desire to create a better life for themselves and their family. Daring to hope is no crime.

Our social, educational, political and business institutions exploit those hopes and dreams. They encourage people to invest their time, effort and $$$ to pursue an education. And they know damned well that many of those people become enslaved possibly for decades to the debt they incur and that they are not rewarded with greater earnings ability.

[Neoma]

4. I'd be #2.

I see the point, and I don't see the point of college at the same time. Some people work better under pressure, and I'm some-what like that. But I like to pour over things to understand them, rather than memorizing. If I go, it's one or two classes at a time, paid up front.

But you forgot #3 reason to go to college. Meeting people to network with. Some people are great at doing that.

[raccoon]

9. Great post, it deserves its own thread. Especially this is a keeper:

"No economy - and particularly our kind of service economy - is capable of creating enough good paying white collar professional jobs (particularly the generic management and middle management kinds of jobs business programs seem to train our kids for) for all the college grads we churn out."

That has been true for a long time.

[Tommy_J]

5. Most definitely yes

The return on investment is often best for areas which require the most investment of effort.

Engineering is a good example.

[mactime]

6. Depends

Depends what you going to college for. My sister-in-law has a Masters degree in Dance. She had been working at Borders for the last 3 years unable to make a dent in her student loans. She is currently unemployed.
I wish vocational training was not looked down on so much in America. Everybody believes they have to go to college. It would be nice if there was a vocational training option (mechanic, electrician, plumber etc) that was run like the vocational schools in Europe.

[uppityperson]

7. It depends and no, Pres Obama did not say what Santorum "bravely chastised" him about.

I'm not sure how it is "brave" to criticize someone for something he never said, but then I DID go to college.

For some, going to college proves to an employer that they are capable of playing the game. For others, it is necessary training in a job. For others, it is a holding pattern while they get a few more yrs under their belts.

Don't go to college unless you have a good reason, is my advice. What that reason is differs for each of us.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/27/obama-defends-college-remarks/

In fact, the president has not called for everyone to attend a four-year college. In his first address to a joint session of Congress, Mr. Obama called on Americans to do more than just get a high school degree — but he did not urge everyone to go to college.

“I ask every American to commit to at least one year or more of higher education or career training,” Mr. Obama said in February 2009. “This can be community college or a four-year school, vocational training or an apprenticeship. But whatever the training may be, every American will need to get more than a high school diploma.”

[joebaur42]

10. We noted that Santorum had President Obama's stance wrong in the block quote.

And if you read the whole post, you'd probably get that Santorum's "bravery" was noted in jest .

Great thoughts, everyone!

[uppityperson]

12. Ah, I did read the whole post but missed that jest. Thank you for clarifying. Are you in college?

Reading your blog, you seem the right age, but then I didn't dig into your blog very deeply. And yes, there is no "right age" for college, but wondering if you are or were. Thanks.

[joebaur42]

13. Most of what we say is in jest :).

And no, I'm out of college a couple years now. I can certainly say I wouldn't have the skills to write/edit MildlyRelevant.com nor the production experience to write/host Mildly Relevant News without my college experience, though.

[bhikkhu]

8. Is there a point to knowledge, or to being able to think well?

Even if it were all about the money, it would still be worth it to me. I studied accounting at UCLA years ago, and that basic competence has served me well since, in every unrelated job I have had, as well as giving me the confidence to start and run my own business. At 38 I went back to college to complete a BA in liberal studies - which has no market value at all - and it was a life-changing and enriching choice. I'm still paying on the student loans, and it has made no difference in my employment, but it was well worth it.

Your mind is who you are, and investing in it is always a good thing, regardless of age.

[Coyote_Bandit]

14. The thing is

one need not have a college degree to acquire knowledge and be able to think well. And having a degree is no indication that one necessarily possesses knowledge or critical thinking skills. Never mind the fact that one must exert some personal discipline and effort to maintain knowledge and exercise critical thinking skills throughout their life.

There is certainly nothing wrong with pursuing formal studies because one has an interst and desire to learn - although in this information age it is quite possible to become well informed on many many topics if one is sufficiently self-motivated and self-disciplined. The problem is that too many attach career and employment expectations to those formal studies.

We have unrealistic expectations of our system of higher education (pre-K through 12 as well but for different reasons). Lots of reasons for that. Kids often don't get good career planning advice. The schools are fighting for enrollement and the dllars it brings. It serves our broader economy to keep students out of th workforce while in school. Our social institutions encourage highed education although most grads do not work in the field the studied. And parents often provide their kids with advice based on what worked for them and their generation.

[WheelWalker]

17. I agree with your excellent points. +1

[bemildred]

15. It's not worth what they want you to pay.

The people that run the systems are very well taken care of, and everybody else gets screwed.

[Chakaconcarne]

16. its absolutely worth it if.....

You choose the right field and is worth the investment. Many just get any degree because they think a degree guarantees employment. You have to be critical and have foresight in your decision making. Don't go for a psych degree if the market is scrambling for engineers.

[dmallind]

18. Lots of anecdotes and subjective guesses - data here

2/2012 HS grad umemployment: 8.3% Participation rate 59%

Bachelor + unemployment: 4.2% Participation rate 76.4%

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm

Median weekly earnings 2011 HS grad $638

Bachelors $1053

Masters $1263

Professional $1665

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

So just on a working income level and ignoring education's intrinsic value - do you want to be 1.35 times (.764*.958)/(.59*.917) more likely to avoid unemployment and can you pay off your undergrad loans with $415 extra a week or Masters with $625? Then yep.