'Even Jimmy Carter' James Fallows of the Atlantic weighs in..
But let's remember:
1) Jimmy Carter is a graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy who spent ten years in the uniformed service of his country. As far as I can tell, this is ten years more than the cumulative service of all members of the Romney clan. Obviously you don't have to be a veteran to have judgments about military policy or criticisms of others' views. But when it comes to casual slurs about someone else's strength or resolve, you want to be careful, as a guy on the sidelines, sounding this way about people who have served.
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/04/even-jimmy-carter/256558/
hlthe2b
(102,218 posts)AllyCat
(16,177 posts)Every day is a new rash of verbal blunders out of his mouth. It's hard to keep up.
hlthe2b
(102,218 posts)Jimmy Carter who made a tough decision like this that unfortunately went bad (which I suspect Romney is totally ignorant of) and was a 7 year Navy veteran... Despicable.
AllyCat
(16,177 posts)is himself.
tapermaker
(244 posts)I was aboard the nimitz during the raid and i will tell you ,everyone of us were behind the men involved and wanted to make the rescue a success.we had to take the F.O.D covers off the engines to reduce the weight for carrying all the hostages out.I took a photo against orders of the chopper we took the covers off of . It sat the night before the raid hidden from veiw in the hanger bay.They were not allowed topside due to soviet survailence . About 1/2 hr after launch one chopper came back with F.O.D. to the engine due to The sand storm.A few hours later we heard that the mission had failed . The Mood change was more dramatic than anything i can remember (losing the NBA championship to michael jordon and the bulls in the early 90s is the closest i have felt that way since.) It makes it all the more remarkable that Pres. Obama and Carter had the guts to take the chance at all.
<a href="http://s84.photobucket.com/albums/k24/tapermaker/?action=view¤t=006-28.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
You were part of an important piece of American history tapermaker. Thanks for your service.
Do you have any insight as to why the engine covers were removed rather than additional helicopters added to the mission?
K&R for this whole thread, but for your pic especially.
-app
tapermaker
(244 posts)I hadnt dwelled on that. I suppose the less they went in with the better to avoid radar detection ,as the element of surprise was paramount.It really is remarkable that the removing of 800lbs of FOD covers resulted in Pres. Reagan being elected. and the whole policy shift to republican trickle down economics still effects to today.
MADem
(135,425 posts)(at the Desert One) site was a couple of thousand feet. The quality of the air is very different--dry as a bone in the desert, moist and dense by the sea. And sand is a Very Bad Thing out there, and you don't need a sandstorm to know that, either.
The good thing about Desert One (if there was a good thing to come out of that ghastly mess) was that DOD learned to work together, for once. The rivalries had to be put aside. You had too many branches of service with radios that couldn't even talk to one another on that clusterfuck. You had people prepping helos who had never worked in or around Teheran--when there were THOUSANDS of recently laid-off ex-Vietnam former military/military reservists/retirees who had left that country in the last six months, knew the terrain intimately as a consequence of selling and repairing and test flying both Bell and Sikorsky products for the Shah, knew how to configure the aircraft to compensate for peculiarities of climate, and who could have and would have made that mission a success.
There was also a shitload of (many of them unemployed) HUMINT out there, with pictures, film, and recent personal experience who knew where stuff was that one couldn't find on any ordnance map of the country. That, though, was back in the day when the military had a fixation on ACDU-first, reserves last, and Recalls to ACDU? Fuggedaboutit.
In special circumstances, though, people with special knowledge are the ones to look to when formulating a plan. They never asked the right people for advice, and that's what doomed them.
You have to blame Carter, though it pains me to so do, because he was the CinC. That said, I do not think the JCS staff served him well at all, I think the service chiefs, egged on by the politically minded service secretaries, were far more interested in sticking their thumbs into the pie than ensuring that the pie was properly baked or tasty. The CIA was no fucking help, either. At the end of the day, the pie tasted like shit, and they all got busy pointing fingers at one another and trying to assign blame.
I would have done it as a joint USN-USA effort, frankly. USAF was never "present" in Iran during the Shah days when it came to helos, so why start now? They don't have many pilots who can even land on a carrier--they were just not needed, unless they were circling up above in an AWACS or coming in from elsewhere to provide air cover--but really, all that could have come from Nimitz just as easily, and the coordination would have been easier. There was certainly room for USMC doing some perimeter work at the rescue site (and they're DON anyway), but it should have been USN to the shore, USA in the helos (because the helos most commonly used in Iran, by Iranians, were very similar to USA helos and they were frequently seen in the skies during--and even for some time after, before they broke them all-- the Shah era) and "pick your favorite" Special Forces (Delta, Seals, who cares) to do the extraction and go in and get those hostages. If it were my game to play, I would have put them all in chadors on a bus with lace curtains (not uncommon at all) that said "Pilgrimage to Fatima's Tomb!" on a big banner on the side (she was the sister of Imam Reza and her tomb in Qom, south of Teheran, is a pilgrimage site and a Big Deal) and gotten both in and out of town that way. Once out on the Qom road, there's all kinds of desert out there--you can leave the road on jeeps, ATVs or even dirt bikes and never be found--it's a wasteland and very easy to get lost/hide from authorities.
If they wanted to be real sneaky, they'd bomb a few fuel farms on the way to the Turkish border--that might make them believe that they were headed for freedom by way of Lake Van instead of going back the way they came.
The whole thing was a crying shame and I am the first to concede that it's way too easy to second-guess. I would have hated being a planner on that evolution, though--that's something no one wanted to have on their resume. The distancing began almost immediately after the failure became evident...
bpj62
(999 posts)One of the lessons learned from this failure was the need for better communication between the services. This was the first big mission after Vietnam and there was still alot of inter service rivalry going on. If I remember correctly they had 2 Ch53 and a C-130 in the desert and the choppers would get the hostages out of the embassy then the C-130 would do the rest. The weather screwed everything else up and the rest is history. The Iranians were caught flat footed and had no idea that we were even there. Carter made the right call even if the mission failed. I am so tired of these chicken hawks like Romney and Rove thinking that they know what the hell serving in the military is like or what it is like to send men and women into harms way.
Gregorian
(23,867 posts)I still can't believe we got Bush's son, TWICE.
Fuck them. The world has enough problems without the chickenhawk pinheads dismantling the country we fought and worked so hard to create.
There, I had to get that out.
Bigmack
(8,020 posts)Reflecting on tapermaker's post.
We should all realize how the decision to remove those screens changed the course of history... US history and World history.
IF the screens were on, and IF the hostages were rescued, Carter would have been re-elected.
No Reagan.
"For want of a nail, a shoe was lost....."
LibDemAlways
(15,139 posts)stupid, ignorant, petty remark and yet another reason Mitt belongs nowhere near the WH.
myrna minx
(22,772 posts)southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)to the people. I will always feel Reagan went behind Carter's back and asked Iran to hold the prisoners so he could win the election. Carter was a hero. Especially since leaving office. He has done more for the working people in this country. I thank President Carter. Mittens can't even shine his shoes even with all his wealth.
Rhiannon12866
(205,161 posts)Well said. President Carter served with honor and continues to serve this country.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Rickover had his eye on Jimmy, and Rickover was a basstid who wasn't easy to please. JC was a consummate professional, and a superb officer in every respect.
As a bicycle riding, Parisian-vacationing, proselytizing con man/draft-dodger who drove the car that killed his boss's wife, RMoney needs to shut his trap and not speak about things of which he knows absolutely nothing--or risk being called for the fool that he is.