Robert Fisk: This is not about 'bad apples'. This is the horror of war

[marmar]

from the Independent UK:



Robert Fisk: This is not about 'bad apples'. This is the horror of war
How many other abuses took place off camera? How many Hadithas? How many My Lais?


So now it's snapshots of US Marines pissing on the Afghan dead. Better, I suppose, than the US soldiers pictured beside the innocent Afghan teenager they fragged back in March of last year. Or the female guard posing with the dead Iraqi prisoner at Abu Ghraib. Not to mention Haditha or the murder videos taken by US troops in the field – the grenading of an old shepherd by an Iraqi highway comes to mind – or My Lai or the massacre of refugees by US forces in Korea or the murder of Malayan villagers by British troops. Or the Bloody Sunday massacre of 14 Catholics by British troops in Derry in 1972. And please note, I have not even mentioned the name of Baha Mousa.

The US Marines' response to the pissing pictures was oh so typical. These men were not abiding by the "core values" of the Marines, we were informed. Same old story. A "rogue" unit, a few "bad apples", rotten eggs. Maybe.

But if there is one game of pissing on the dead, how many others happened without pictures? How many other shepherds got fragged in Iraq? How many other Hadithas have there been? There were plenty of other My Lais.

As laptop filmography gets better, so it all comes slopping out, the rapes and slaughter – and yes, by the Taliban the stoning of young women for supposed sexual misconduct in Afghanistan; by al-Qa'ida, executions and throat-cuttings in Iraq. ..........(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-this-is-not-about-bad-apples-this-is-the-horror-of-war-6289046.html

[rhett o rick]

1. If you like war, you like atrocities. nm

[xchrom]

2. Du rec. Nt

[Stuart G]

3. War..horror of War..Sand Creek, November 29, 1869..American Troops did this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_Creek_massacre
Now...you don't have to hit the link..the info is right here..........

Shit...War is to be avoided.......it ruins the fighters minds and turns them into?????????????

read carefully, there was a flag of peace there, there were no fighters there.......there was an American Flag there.......these were old men, women, and children..
________________________________________________________________________________________
Sand Creek ..read it is about what American Soldiers did..if you don't know.
On the morning of November 29, 1864, Chivington ordered his troops to attack......

Black Kettle, a chief of a group of around 800 mostly Northern Cheyenne, reported to Fort Lyon in an effort to establish peace. After having done so, he and his band, along with some Arapaho under Chief Niwot, camped out at nearby Sand Creek, less than 40 miles north. The Dog Soldiers, who had been responsible for many of the raids on whites, were not part of this encampment. Assured by the U.S. Government's promises of peace, most of the warriors were off hunting buffalo, leaving only around 60 men, and women and children in the village. Most of the men were too old or too young to hunt. Black Kettle flew an American flag over his lodge, since previously the officers had said this would show he was friendly and prevent attack by U.S. soldiers.

Setting out from Fort Lyon, Chivington and his 700 troops of the First Colorado Cavalry, Third Colorado Cavalry and a company of First New Mexico Volunteers marched to Black Kettle's campsite. On the night of November 28, soldiers and militia drank heavily and celebrated their anticipated victory. On the morning of November 29, 1864, Chivington ordered his troops to attack. Two officers, Captain Silas Soule and Lieutenant Joseph Cramer, commanding companies D and K, respectively, of the First Colorado Cavalry, refused to follow Chivington's order and told their men to hold fire. Other soldiers in Chivington's force, however, immediately attacked the village. Disregarding the American flag, and a white flag that was run up shortly after the soldiers commenced firing, Chivington's soldiers massacred many of its inhabitants.


I saw the bodies of those lying there cut all to pieces, worse mutilated than any I ever saw before; the women cut all to pieces ... With knives; scalped; their brains knocked out; children two or three months old; all ages lying there, from sucking infants up to warriors ... By whom were they mutilated? By the United States troops ...

—- John S. Smith, Congressional Testimony of Mr. John S. Smith, 1865


Fingers and ears were cut off the bodies for the jewelry they carried. The body of White Antelope, lying solitarily in the creek bed, was a prime target. Besides scalping him the soldiers cut off his nose, ears, and testicles-the last for a tobacco pouch ...

—- Stan Hoig


Jis to think of that dog Chivington and his dirty hounds, up thar at Sand Creek. His men shot down squaws, and blew the brains out of little innocent children. You call sich soldiers Christians, do ye? And Indians savages? What der yer 'spose our Heavenly Father, who made both them and us, thinks of these things? I tell you what, I don't like a hostile red skin any more than you do. And when they are hostile, I've fought 'em, hard as any man. But I never yet drew a bead on a squaw or papoose, and I despise the man who

[Muskypundit]

4. I am uncomfortable with blanket accusations against me and my work

From a world of people with not one iota of understanding. I am not a monster. My friends are not monsters. Neither I or anyone I know has committed an atrocity. War is hell, it is madness, and should never happen. But some people handle the situations better than others, and some should have never been let into basic training in the first place.

But I guess its just easier to not think and just negative stereotype us.

[Blacksheep214]

5. Define 'Us'

I don't see it that way. Millions have served honorably and wouldn't desicrate the dead, period! We will do our best to make sure they die for their cause though.

Don't take this personally! I doubt highly trained snipers are suffering battle stress. These guys were also defiling America since they represent us!

Sgt USMC Veteran FWIW

[backtomn]

6. Don't apologize....

The reason this is a big deal is BECAUSE it is so rare.....period. In addition, we punish those that violate the rules. How many countries at war can say that? We should not be trying to paint all of our soldiers as evil.

[Blacksheep214]

7. Have you read Military.com?

It runs about 80% in favor of this pissing contest.

I consider it a byproduct of being fed Fox and Limpbutt on AFN.

I hope they come forward if this leads to another attack on America. Man up!

[Muskypundit]

8. Good thing military.com is not in charge of the military judicial system

Because those pissers are about to get screwed. They will be charged.

[Stuart G]

22. You are right, the pissers will be charged. I ask this question.

When will Bush be charged?

[deacon_sephiroth]

11. I'm glad someone mentioned AFN

I can't turn it on with Sean fucking Hannity opening his lie-hole. It's a right wing echo chamber in places you can't get anything but AFN.

[Sirveri]

14. The problem is the good soldiers not policing the bad ones.

I served with some guys. The bad guys ran rampant and nobody cared because the 'good' guys just wanted to keep their head down and get out with all their pieces. They didn't want to make waves. They didn't want anyone to get hurt. They didn't want to screw anyone over.

[Muskypundit]

19. I have always been deployed as psyop

And basically our entire job is to be the good guys. So all I can do is imagine of that not being the case.

[DallasNE]

16. Boys Will Be Boys Defense

Just doesn't cut it. The actions also seem to extend to all those in uniform with the power to abuse. Think not, then check out pictures of the passive demonstrators at the University of California, Davis as a thug in uniform pepper sprays that line of passive demonstrators.

[Muskypundit]

17. That was not a boys will be boys defense

War is a little more complicated than breaking a window or stealing cookies from a jar. Hence me saying most of you have not one iota of understanding.

I said some people can handle it better than others, and those who can't should be weeded out in basic, and at the very least never sent to war.

[Muskypundit]

18. And shitty actions come from more than just those in a uniform.

Everyone who has cut in line, cheated on someone else, murdered and raped another, broken and entered, beaten up another.... Ect. So don't act like only people in uniform hurt others. Because civilians seem love to do a lot of it when left alone. Hence uniforms in the first place.

No, being in uniform doesn't magically make humans better. But uniforms don't make humans worse.

[DallasNE]

20. I Served In The Military

So I have seen first hand some of the stuff that goes on there and it often isn't pretty. Whistle blowers face military justice, petty crime is rampant. Boys will be boys and all is forgiven. Obviously, that is not to say that civilians don't do some bad crap too, but that is beside the point. Without a camera those in uniform get away with it for the most part. Civilians, not quite so fortunate.

[malaise]

9. Yes indeed

War is evil

[Stuart G]

10. malaise is correct..."War is Evil"

If it must be done, then it must be done..

But it is unimaginable evil.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

12. War encourages demonization of your adversary--even though

your adversary is probably another terrified 19-year-old, someone you wouldn't normally want to kill.

Years ago, Canadian journalist Gwynne Dwyer had a PBS series called War, and one episode was about basic training. It followed a group of American recruits, and Dwyer said that it was almost exactly what he went through as a recruit into the Canadian army. He noted that all countries with a draft start drafting at age 18. There are two reasons: 1) Eighteen-year-olds are at the peak of their physical strength and endurance, 2) That age group is highly susceptible to peer pressure. I suppose that nowadays, he might add that eighteen-year-olds are still partly in teen-age brain mode (I certainly saw this as a college professor) and haven't really processed the fact that they could get killed in battle.

(I once had an anthropology professor who remarked, after some students expressed uneasiness about talking about funeral customs in different cultures, "Yeah, I'm looking at a roomful of twenty-year-old immortals.&quot

[Stuart G]

23. Your adversary is probably another terrified 19-year-old, someone you wouldn't normally want to kill

Think about this horror that we call war..
In my opinion, this is something that we should keep up there..so, I will.

[Scottybeamer70]

13. so, let me get this straight......

it's all right if we shoot them, and all right if we kill them...........even if we
see pictures of the killing...............but other than killing..........other things not so much!
OK.........got it.............

[Stuart G]

15. so...it ain't about killing, it is about how we treat the dead, after we kill them.. ????

NOt to me...it is about the horrors of war..

Yes, urinating on the dead, not a good idea....
The point the original post is questioning ..is the evil aspects of war itself, and the killing other people..that is more immoral..
...........isn't it?

[cbrer]

21. Cry Havoc

And loose the dogs of war.

We don't win wars. We survive them. These recycled words are the best we've got. If politicians had ANY idea of the horror they release. The lives they ruin. The carnage they ensure. The inhuman behavior, the debt, the fucking dead end... But no we invoke outrage as the slivers of reality work out.

Decisions will still be made on an economic basis. I'll do it. You'll do it. And the beat rolls on. Our society, along with our leaders who reflect us, will not change one iota as this, and future atrocities work their way to the bottom of the bird cage. The technology will improve. Our money insures it.

Whether for God, or oil, or manifest destiny. War is the reality we face as a race. Would a behavioral root cause analysis be useful? Nope...been done. Even understanding the need to dominate or destroy, doesn't eliminate, or even mitigate it.

Hey! There's hope! Let's hope that human nature changes. OK Group photo! Everyone smile!