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Jesus Malverde

(10,274 posts)
Sat Apr 26, 2014, 06:56 PM Apr 2014

More renounce US citizenship but deny stereotype

Inside the long-awaited package, six pages of government paperwork dryly affirmed Carol Tapanila's anxious request. But when Tapanila slipped the contents from the brown envelope, she saw there was something more.

"We the people...." declared the script inside her U.S. passport — now with four holes punched through it from cover to cover. Her departure from life as an American was stamped final on the same page: "Bearer Expatriated Self."

With the envelope's arrival, Tapanila, a native of upstate New York who has lived in Canada since 1969, joined a largely overlooked surge of Americans rejecting what is, to millions, a highly sought prize: U.S. citizenship. Last year, the U.S. government reported a record 2,999 people renounced citizenship or terminated permanent residency; most are widely assumed to be driven by a desire to avoid paying taxes on hidden wealth.

The reality, though, is more complicated. The government's pursuit of tax evaders among Americans living abroad is indeed driving the jump in abandoned citizenship, experts say. But renouncers — whose ranks have swelled more than five-fold from a decade ago — often contradict the stereotype of the financial scoundrel. Many are from very ordinary economic circumstances.

Read More: http://news.yahoo.com/more-renounce-us-citizenship-deny-stereotype-162509477.html;_ylt=AwrBEiSg8VtTST8AREvQtDMD

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More renounce US citizenship but deny stereotype (Original Post) Jesus Malverde Apr 2014 OP
It's no wonder that ordinary people do this. Democracyinkind Apr 2014 #1
Do you really know anything about the effect of global taxation? BlueMTexpat Apr 2014 #3
Obviously, what I wrote came from personal... Democracyinkind Apr 2014 #4
LOL - you are likely earning a LOT more than I am. BlueMTexpat Apr 2014 #5
, blkmusclmachine Apr 2014 #2

Democracyinkind

(4,015 posts)
1. It's no wonder that ordinary people do this.
Sat Apr 26, 2014, 07:03 PM
Apr 2014

Depending on the tax rates of the country you live in, paying additional US taxes can make a significant dent to your income.

It's a system that is completely out of touch with current global standards.

I have thought about renouncing citizenship a lot, it would be financially lucrative and I haven't had a US passport in decades. But still.... Something keeps holding me back. I wouldn't even regret not being able to vote as my vote is counted in a solidly blue state as far as presidential elections are concerned.

BlueMTexpat

(15,365 posts)
3. Do you really know anything about the effect of global taxation?
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 04:26 AM
Apr 2014

So many people who speak out against this haven't a clue what they are talking about. Yes, there is an absolute requirement to file a US tax return for a US citizen, where-ever resident. But there may be no additional tax liability - or, if there is, it is generally not much more than citizens would have owed had they been resident in the US exclusively. For all but the wealthiest, it is much ado about nothing.

The fact is that the US has tax treaties with most countries so that US citizens/residents do not pay taxes on the SAME income for the most part. Where there IS taxation on the same income, US citizens receive credits for taxes they have paid to another country for that same income. There is also what most consider to be a generous exclusion for foreign-earned revenue and Form 4555 can actually increase that exclusion somewhat by adding in expenses attributable to residing abroad.

I'll admit that my own experience is limited, but it is real. I am a legal resident of Switzerland and, as such, am obliged to declare ALL revenue AND "wealth" (e.g., end-of-calendar-year values of bank accounts, stocks, real property, etc. of whatever origin and in whatever location) - to the Swiss tax authorities. As it happens, the tax authorities go through everything that I list and make adjustments to exclude most US-sourced revenue and US-based "wealth" for calculating the Swiss tax assessment. Because of the adjusted weighting, they generally find that I owe less tax than my original return shows!

One exception to the adjusted weighting is for IRA withdrawals (IRAs - as special pre-tax retirement savings plans - are also exceptions from the wealth value reporting; the Swiss have similar pre-tax retirement savings plans), but once amounts are withdrawn, they are considered fully taxable as revenue here in Switzerland even though the income originates in the US. US IRA withdrawals for Swiss residents are first taxed in Switzerland. But the tax paid for IRA withdrawals here offsets amounts owing in the US.

As an expat who fully believes that paying taxes is the price we pay for a civilized society, albeit not more than my fair share please, I have not found the process overly burdensome. To be sure, there were only a couple of years where I lived abroad and earned enough more than the generous exclusion to have to pay US taxes on it. But during those years, I was also an "International Civil Servant" and, as such, exempt from paying any Swiss taxes at all, so my tax treatment was certainly more than fair. Had I been subject to Swiss taxes, the Swiss taxes paid would have offset the US tax liability significantly.

Yes, it is a nuisance to have to file a FATCA report as well as a separate US tax return. But I have found tax authorities in both countries to be very professional and helpful, so long as they realize that one is not trying to hide income and that any advantage one wishes to receive is a legal one. Frankly, I am tired generally of hearing people "dis" public services (not that you are doing so, but too many do). Perhaps they have had bad experiences with some people but the overwhelming majority of civil servants anywhere whom I have dealt with have been hard-working people who take their jobs seriously and try to be helpful.

I also know people here in Switzerland who have renounced their US citizenship. In most cases it was not because of, or not principally because of, the tax issue. Practically speaking, it has generally become much more difficult for US citizens to open bank accounts here, especially in the smaller cantonal banks. As someone who has lived here for nearly 20 years, I was "grandfathered" in and my accounts are with one of the biggies, but even there, US citizens, wherever located here, are now lumped together and we must sign disclosure forms to show that we agree that our balances can be reported to the IRS, among other things. Another reason is that those US citizens who renounce are children of US citizens who have lived most of their lives abroad so that they have no familial, educational, cultural or other ties with the US and feel no affiliation whatsoever. Especially because of events since 2001, many of these have grown ashamed of ANY ties to the US and its wholesale unquestioning allegiance to questionable, even insane, foreign policy positions that make little sense to what we who are abroad see and hear for ourselves every day.

What I personally do NOT like is being tarred with the same brush as a tax evader, which I am most certainly not. I also hate having my taxes support military invasions/drone strikes, etc. with which I absolutely do not agree and seeing my once-proud role-model of a democracy being taken over by corporations, oligarchs, religious zealots and gun nuts. But I value my US citizenship and will not renounce it. I remain proud to be an American because of the America I grew up in that did aspire to be better and the many, many wonderful US citizens I know who believe, as I do, that we can - and must - be better.

Sorry for the rant! I didn't mean to go on for so long.

Democracyinkind

(4,015 posts)
4. Obviously, what I wrote came from personal...
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 04:41 AM
Apr 2014

... experience. As to the rest of your post, it seems more like a general comment on the topic than a reply...

But I think you misunderstood my comment about the "global system". The US is the only country (with one other exception) that taxes the income of its citizens no matter where it is earned. That is the very definition of being out of touch with global standards. It's a weird principle, and no other developed country seems to think of it as reasonable.

I do resent filling and all, but that's not the main point. It is mostly giving away the money (for nothing) that hurts. Switzerland is a good example... The lower the taxes in the country that you live, the higher the chances that what you will have to give to the US is rather significant. That has been my experience, at least.

BlueMTexpat

(15,365 posts)
5. LOL - you are likely earning a LOT more than I am.
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 05:48 AM
Apr 2014

The foreign-earned income inclusion ($97,600 for 2013 and mounting), together with the foreign tax credit for taxes paid to another county, should at least help equalize the tax burden for global income. Of course, one must meet the requirements to be eligible for the FEIE.

I am now "retired" - although I teach a couple classes to supplement my comparatively paltry (for Switzerland) income. In this country, they are trying to get a minimum wage of CHF 4000/mo to pass - which, assuming a five-day work week at eight hours per day - is quite a lot higher than anything proposed for minimum wage in the US.

Anyway, one must have citizenship somewhere. Do you have another citizenship handy if you did renounce?

I also understand that the US can - if it wishes - make life somewhat difficult for those who do renounce UN citizenship, such as denying them US entry, etc. That could make things difficult for those who need to conduct business there.

If you do conduct business in the US or live there, I don't understand your point about "giving away" money for nothing. After all, taxes help to build the US infrastructure that makes business transactions possible.




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