U Boat War : Documentary on the Submarine Battle of World War 2

[yuiyoshida]

This video blew me away...I Did not realize how close the US came to losing WWII to German Submarines.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

1. When we captured U-505 it held the top secret Nazi code machine....

I saw the sub in Chicago at the Science and Industry Museum.

http://www.msichicago.org/whats-here/exhibits/u-505/

[happyslug]

4. And the Admiral who took that sub was almost court martial-ed for it

We already had the Enigma and the British had had them since 1939. The key was making sure the Germans did NOT come to believe that we had the Enigma Machine. That was the fear that if German heard of that Capture, they would adopt a new machine. Thus the taking of the Sub, was hated by the Naval High Command for it complicated the fight with the German U-boats (and why orders had been issued to sink all subs and make NO effort to capture one).

Thus the Admiral who took it won praise after the war, but also lost most chances of promotion for he complicated the war effort. Some times stupid orders are issued for good reasons.

[lapfog_1]

6. My dad was fire control officer on a destroyer that provided north Atlantic escort duty

He was awarded a North American battle ribbon (very rare) because he sunk a U-boat in New York Harbor (inside the Statue of Liberty).

This was never released in the news for years and years.

When he was in the reserves and they would do the dress uniform inspections... admirals would always stop and look at the battle ribbon and question him about it.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

11. From what they said on the tour the entire crew of U-505 was held in secret...

They reported the ship as sunk with all hands. This also meant they didn't report their capture to the Red Cross.

[Historic NY]

2. They were killing us on the east coast.....

in 1942. Finally the on paper 10th fleet under Admiral Ernest King got to work. We lost 1027 ships in the first year. That alone put a huge dent in supplying the military and transporting raw materials. I'm completing work on a presentation about a couple of those merchant ships and their crews which were sunk in the Caribbean. As it was called by the Germans, "The American Shooting Season".

[malthaussen]

7. Because we wouldn't turn out the lights.

The business owners on the East coast refused at first to black out their cities, boardwalks, attractions, etc because it would lose them money. plus ca change, plus c'est ca meme chose. You can imagine how nicely those lights silhouetted ships for attackers.

-- Mal

[Historic NY]

9. Thats sort of a yes and no cause....

it took time to organize the homefront after Pearl Harbor. America thought itself safe from attack from planes and invasion. We went through this before during WWI. The lights were also a two edge sword if the can see you, we can see them. The majority of ships sunk were done in early morning hours, sometimes by surfaced U-boats. They were mostly unarmed or had a Naval Armed Guard gun crew. But they sailed by themselves, with no escorts or air cover. That in itself was the major cause of the "Happy times". Convoys and other ships were taken out by combined resources of a "pack" anytime. There were times a u-boat would hit a ship, then surface and use it guns to conserve torpedo's. The convoy and escort system was safer, it took time for us (US) to figure that out. I've found some interesting stories of how the naval armed guards, who were put on the merchant ships actually carved out big guns (cannons) from logs to make it seem a ship was more heavily armed. The American coast is littered with the folly of war, friend & foe alike.

[happyslug]

3. Enigma won the war, but what would have happened if Britain lost the Battle of the Atlantic???

In 1943, without Enigma we did NOT have the ability to locate all the German Subs in the Atlantic. Even with Enigma it was close. If the Germans had sunk one convey, Britain would have had to sign a truce to face mass starvation. The German's came close to doing so, The only way we were able to do so was we had real time decoding of German message to their Subs and from their Subs. We used that data to send B-24s to locations where the Sub was to surface and send another message or receive a message. The B-24s had an early version of Radar to better locate the sub, but the key was making sure the B-24 was in the area the sub was to surface.

The B-24 had been developed after the B-17 do to the discovery of the effective of high wing loadings to extent range. Thus the B-24 was more difficult to fly then the B-17 but had longer range for a product that was about the same cost.

Now, the later B-29 had even longer range, but not in service till 1944. The B-29 was an expensive plane to build, it fact development of the B-29 was the single most costly war program of WWIi (beating OUT the Atomic bomb, which was #2). The B-29 was expensive, difficult to produce and few in numbers

B-17 produced: 12,731 at $238,329 each with a 2000 mile range
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-17_Flying_Fortress


B-24 Produced: 18,422 at $297,627 WWII Price, 4.72 Million in 2012 dollars, 2100 miles combat range, ferry range of 3750.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consolidated_B-24_Liberator

Please note the above reported 100 mile range difference and cheaper price for the B-17 to the B-24 reflects the price of the first B-17 in 1935 that had to be upgraded, which increased its price AND reduced its range. The B24 came into service in 1941 with most if the improvements armor, armaments etc already in its value. i.e The B-17 price of $238,329 was the low price, most cost much more, the B-24 price of $297,627 is its high price (Ford made over 1/2 of all B-24s, in the largest factory ever made to house the single largest Assembly line for the B-24. It is amazing that Ford could produce something that big on an assembly line, but it was found to be more expensive then other ways to produce the B-24, thus another reason for the high price. Please note that price each would have dropped even more had the B-24 been kept in production after May 1945, but it was decided more B-24s were not needed by then),

B-29 Produced: 3,970 made at $639,188 WWII Dollars, Combat Range of 2394 miles Ferry Range 7750 miles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-29_Superfortress

This is considered a low price, most B-29 cost much more, more on the line of the B-50 (which was a B-29 produced after 1945, the US Air force wanted more B-29s at the end of the War, so to get more through Congress the last batch was called a B-50 to make it appear to be an all new plane)

B-50s cost 1,144,196 each in WWII dollars, Range 5600
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-50_Superfortress

AS you can see there is all type of statistics as to price and range of these planes. The best price is about $250,000 for each B-17, $240,000 for each B-24 and $1.1 Million for each B-29 (all in WWII Dollars). Combat Range, Varied depending on the bomb load, about 1500 for a B-17, 1600 for a B-24 and 3000 miles for a B-29. With just a few death charges, the B-24 range could be close to its ferry range of 3750, while the B-29's ferry range in that type of operation appears to have been close to 5600 miles.

Notice the Ferry range of the B-24 was more then half of the B-29, and in most of the Atlantic and Western Europe that was good enough. Furthermore the B-24 was in production in 1941, while the First B-29 was NOT made till 1944 (after the Battle of the Atlantic had been won in 1943).

Yes, a lot of data about planes, but the British had they back against the Wall in 1943. By 1943 it was Britain that was the weakest leak in the alliance not the Soviet Union (which had been the weakest link from June to December 1941).

After December 1941, Germany no longer had any hope of defeating Russia, not enough oil. German Infantry Divisions had to make do with 10% of the fuel they used in the pre war years, to save fuel for the German Air Force, Tank Units and the German U-Boats. Every German Division had one of its ten battalions converted to a Bicycle Battalion, to provide rapid movement of troops with in the division (The Germans did not have the oil to give them trucks). Supplies to even Armor Units came via horse drawn wagons for the same reason.

Do ot its fuel problems Germany had no hope of NOT being occupied unless one of its three enemies quit the war. With Pearl Harbor, America was in but had suffered only minimal damages. Russia had defeated the massive German Onslaught of 1941, and from December 1941 held the upper hand on the Eastern Front. That left England.

England's position in 1943 was bad. It was out producing German in most war goods, including bombs, planes, tanks, guns etc. On the other hand the United Kingdom had been a net food importer for over 100 years by that time period, and thus food from America was crucial. THe UK had food rationing, meat was almost unheard of and over all food consumption had dropped, but what the Conveys were bringing in barely meet what the people needed. Thus the big fight in 1943, if one convey had been destroyed by the Germans, you would have had starvation in Britain, and a huge demand to solve that problem (including even signing a peace treaty so food could be shipped in).

The Germans came close to defeat a couple of the Conveys, then Churchill made the decision that won the battle (but could have lost the war). Somehow in 1939, before the war broke out, the Poles had been able to obtain (or was given to them) an enigma machine. In 1940 this had been given to the British. Even with the enigma machine it had so many combination that it took a computer to figure them out (and Britain had the first Electronic Computer, which did just that).

By 1941, the British was able to read the German Plans when they were sent by radio (and most were sent by Radio, thus the English had the German plans some times sooner then the German Commanders did). At the same time the British did not want to let the German know the British had the German codes,. Thus in the Battle of Crete, the British commander had to operate as if he did not know what the Germans were going to do, even through he knew what they would do. In regards to German Supply Conveys to North African, the RAF would always send a plane to "Discover" the convey before bombing it, even through the RAD knew when the Convey left Italy, how it was to go to African and when it was to reach Africa, All of this was done to protect the fact Britain had the German Enigma Machine and could break the German Codes.

In 1943, the British still had this capacity, but it was clear it was NOT enough for them to win the Battle of the Atlantic. At that point Churchill decided he was NOT going to try to cover up that fact the British had the German Codes, but to act on them immediately. No delay to prevent the Germans from getting the codes, as soon as it was known where a U-Boat was, it was to be sunk. With the American B-24 and its early air borne Radar and this decision, the U-Boats where hunted down in 1943 to make sure they did not defeat any convey. It was a gamble, but Churchill won for the Germans did not adopt a new machine or codes (but various improvements on the German Codes were done bu the German Navy, but what was needed was a completely new machine and code and the Germans never did do that.

By 1943, it was clear that the British had broken the German Codes. The British Actions in 1943 clearly showed that. The next question is why did the Germans do nothing? This may be Admiral Canaris work,. He had been a spy during WWI and head of German Military Intelligence in WWII.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Canaris

Admiral Canaris hated Hitler, but it many ways he feared the Russians more then Hitler (It is believed he had released the killers of Rosa Luxemburg during the German Revolution of 1919), in 1919 she almost won a communist revolution in Germany:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Luxemburg
https://www.google.com/search?q=rosa+luxemburg&rlz=1C1GGGE___US538US538&oq=Rosa+Lu&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.5144j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

Anyway, by 1942 the German High Command had already determined the only question facing Germany was when was the Russian Army take Berlin, and would the Western Allies arrange it so they can take Berlin first (It appears the bet inside the German High Command was on the Russians). Admiral Canaris was part of that Command, and he would have had the power to do all he could so that the Western Allies NOT the Russians took over most of Germany. Thus Canaris may have favored the West and thus did all he could to make sure the German Navy would lose the Battle of the Atlantic in 1943. He was part of the Plot to Kill Hitler and was hung for that crime just weeks before he could have been liberated by the Western Allies. In fact the next big German Attack, the Battle of the Bulge, occurred after Germany had ceased sending war plans over its Radios (the traditional excuse is that Germany had fallen back onto German Soil by December 1944 and thus could use secure land lines, but Germany may have reverted to such land lines for with Canaris's "Conviction" Hitler no longer trusted anything he had been told and thus reverted to the land lines for Canaris had told Hitler the Enigma machine made Radios as secure and Hitler no longer believed that).

Now, with the American and British landing in France, Germany was cut off its last good secure source of oil, smuggled oil via Neutral Spain. At the same time the Russians took the Romanian Oil fields removing the other main source of oil for Germany. Thus by July 1944, the war was clearly over, the only remaining question was how would the Allies divide up Germany. The Germans threw all they could against the Russians after January 1945 (unless Hitler told them other wise) so the Western Allies could take as much of Germany as Possible. Worse in March or April 1945, the plans for the occupation of post war Germany fell into German Hands (who used them to plan their defenses reasoning the Americans would NOT take Berlin just to give it back to the Russians, thus the Germans made no defenses to the West of Berlin and through all they remaining troops to the East against the Red Army).

Just a comment, Summer 1943 was the key year in the war. If the Germans had sunk one convey, Britain would have face starvation and may even had to sue for peace. After that date the German U-Boats never had the capacity to destroy a Convey. After the Summer of 1944 with the loss of the French Atlantic ports, any ability of the U-Boats to be more then a minor pest disappeared. '

Just a comment that the Summer of 1943 was Hitler's last Chance to win the War (or at least not lose it). All Hitler had to do was change his enigma machines. He should have done that in 1940, after he had taken France (just in case one of them had fell into Allied Hands). Worse, he should NOT have permitted the sending of any other then message other then actual war plans through those machines. In April on his birthday every German commander would send Hitler a birthday greeting. Those would be intercepted and since the Allies knew what they said, easy to break and then used as the basis to set up the computer to break any other message sent. Bin Laden did not even do that, all his messages were sent by people who then went some place else to send the message. No causal messages were sent by bin Laden nor sent to him, unlike the German Commanders in the Field to Hitler.

On the other hand, just think about it, the British was using the First electronic computer, to break the codes. That information was sent to B-24s equipped with the then new technology or Air Borne Radar, whose sole mission was to sink U-boats. Concerns about revealing to the enemy that you had broken they code were set aside, and even then the Germans almost won the Battle of the Atlantic. I think the results would have been a truce so Britain could import food, and Germany oil, but the USA and the Soviet Union would have continued to fight. I do not see any US Troops invading France in 1944, so Russia gets all of Germany. The British and the US would have invaded France in 1945 to secure it, and the US would have continued it march up Italy in 1943 (without the British). Thus the net result would have been the Iron Curtain would have been the Alps and the Rhine, not the what was the old East West Divide during the Cold War.

[another_liberal]

5. "In war, the most important thing is how you die."

So said Wolfgang Ott, a WWII U-boat officer. To die fighting in the North Atlantic, no matter which side you were on, was a truly terrible way to die.

It is an odd coincidence that the number of German sailors who died in their U-boats is almost exactly the same as the number of pilots and airmen we lost in our bombing attacks on Germany (1942-45) roughly thirty thousand in each case.

[malthaussen]

8. Check your figures

U-boats: 28,744 of approx 35,000 serving: 82% death rate. Now consider that number, then imagine that even at the end, the men willingly went out to fight.

Bombing campaign: combined US/British losses were 158,564 of 1,337,648 total served, which checks in at about 12%. This is according to the Strategic Bombing Survey of 1947. British and US losses were within a handful of each other, although the British percentage is lower.

So neither in absolute nor relative terms were the casualties similar.

-- Mal

[another_liberal]

10. 160,000 is the round number for all allied losses in the European air war.

30,0000 is the round number of losses our heavy bomber crews suffered in attacking Germany.