Steve Jobs on cancer: Don't mess with eastern medicine

[Quixote1818]

This video also touches on what happened to Steve Jobs:

[Peace Patriot]

1. "The ancient Chinese didn't know anything about human anatomy."???

This doctor is an asshole. But we can't really expect anything else from corporate media than rich, self-fawning assholes pushing their own agendas.

[roguevalley]

3. I agree, Peace Patriot. it is amazing how people managed 10K years without Astra Zenecka isn't it?

[CSStrowbridge]

5. The ancient Chinese did NOT know anything about human anatomy.

The ancient Chinese didn't know anything about human anatomy. Neither did the ancient Romans, Greeks, Indians, etc. The wisest person living 2,000 years ago doesn't know as much about the human body as the average high school student of today. This isn't arrogance, this is the fucking truth. As science advances, we learn more and more about the human body and how to keep it healthy and how to treat it when it is sick. If you don't believe this, then you are fucking stupid. You are no better than the average creationist who thinks a book written 2,000 years ago knows more about evolution than the scientists of today.

The Progressive Movement _must_ be a fact-based movement.

[hadrons]

8. Kind of ....

they did know the best places to stab someone

[paleotn]

10. Trial and error.....

.....just like their medicine. They knew some things worked, but certainly not for the reasons they had in mind. My wife, a trained health care professional, sometimes goes a little off the tracks with eastern medicine, until I remind her that if one throws shit against a wall for 3,000 years, somethings bound to stick, but one may not have a clue why it stuck, so one makes up a reason.

[thesquanderer]

18. Why doesn't matter.

re: "They knew some things worked, but certainly not for the reasons they had in mind...if one throws shit against a wall for 3,000 years, somethings bound to stick, but one may not have a clue why it stuck, so one makes up a reason. "

If you're sick, and something works, does it matter if you don't understand the reason? Maybe only one in a thousand ancient treatments worked, and maybe they had no idea why... but not knowing why doesn't make those particular treatments worthless.

[paleotn]

22. Why most certainly does matter....

The rapid advancement in the number of effective treatments since the late 19th century for everything from asthma to small pox to HIV is based upon the knowledge of how disease processes actually work in the human body and not bullshit paradigms rooted in superstition.

[thesquanderer]

25. That seems like a non-sequitor to my comment.

If you're sick, and something makes you better, it doesn't matter why, you'll still want to take it.

Of course there have been scientific advancements, and we have more fixes for things today than ever. But if something used to work and we didn't know why, it doesn't stop working just because new things are developed whose mechanisms may be better understood.

And as much as we think we know about medicine and the body now, people will probably look back at this time 100 years from now and be dumbstruck at how little we really knew, while thinking we were so advanced.

At any rate, it's not either/or. And I'm not defending things that don't work; nor am I defending using alternative therapies that might work to the exclusion of things that science tells us are more likely to work.

But there are things in traditional Chinese medicine, or in other kinds of remedies that predate modern medicine, that did seem to work. Maybe it was because they threw enough stuff at the wall to find it, but they still found it.

[snagglepuss]

13. Thank you sor some sanity. Do those enamored by traditional Chinesemedicine even pause

to consider the massive suffering this idiocy has spawned such as the misery of bears being kept alive so that their bile can be continually drained to treat effing hemorrhoids? Bacik in the 80s a friend of mine sang praises of this natural treatment and how it was so much better than Western OTC medication. It makes me sick that it never dawned on me to ask when he told me about the bear bile how bear bile was gotten. Let's not forget either how Chinese medical gensiuses think nothing of wiping out rhinos.

[paleotn]

11. Actually, compared to today....

they didn't know squat. Our knowledge of how and why the human body responds as it does is light years ahead of just a few decades ago, much less thousands of years ago. The ancient Chinese had no idea what various cancers really were or what caused them. They had no clue about endocrinology and how it affects human health. They had no knowledge of infectious pathogens as a cause of disease. The list goes on and on and on.

They did know some things seemed to work anecdotally and through simple trial and error, but never for the reasons they thought they did. The modern, western method, sans the profit motive, is vastly superior since we strive, with advanced technology beyond the wildest dreams of the ancient Chinese, to understand how and why treatments are effective, and thus develop far superior curative measures that do actually work in the vast majority of patients. Is our western knowledge complete? Far from it, but the work continues. Can western medicine learn from eastern methods? Definitely, but only after those methods are put through the reality filter of western medical research, thus filtering out the bullshit. Simply put, I would trust methods that are rigorously researched and tested far more than something that "seems" to work but never for the reasons an eastern practitioner thinks it does.

[snagglepuss]

14. The fawnng aholes are those who buy into traditional Chinese medicine.

So goddam wholistic that they kept thousnads of bears in brutal conditions so they can continually drain their bile for effing hemmroids.

[Live and Learn]

2. Not really a Jobs' fan but

to proclaim him stupid for dealing with his illness in the way he thought best is callous and wrong. Nobody can second guess what information he had or what choices he made. No medical scientist worth a hill of beans would proclaim to know all, nor do we. If you are happy sticking to Western science (as proclaimed by the USA) then do so but in cases, especially where a cure can not be promised, let people make their own informed decisions.

I really hoped we were done with this "war" and already regret replying to the thread.

By the way, the first link is no longer working so maybe I am not getting the just of your OP.

[pnwmom]

4. Also, he lived for 8 or 9 years after diagnosis, which is still a good result

even for his type of pancreatic cancer.

As heartbreaking as it must have been (for him and his family) to lose the final battle , the combination of treatments he chose to undergo gave him as many years as would be reasonably expected from a completely conventional treatment approach.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

19. BULLSHIT. 8 to 9 years is a horrible outcome for a cancer that has a 95% survival rate.

We've been down this road.

You know it.

His biographer and his friend say the same thing. He knows he fucked up. Anyone with the slightest bit of knowledge about this cancer knows it.

[pnwmom]

20. Do you have a link for the 95%? That isn't what I've seen before. nt

[paleotn]

24. 95% is a bit extreme, I think....

... 50 to 80% depending on the study is the correct answer. Jobs was initially diagnosed with a pancreatic neuroendrocrine tumor, a very treatable form of pancreatic cancer. Adenocarcinoma is vastly more aggressive and deadly form of pancreatic cancer, with a 5% or less survival rate, primarily due to it being asymptomatic until treatment options are limited. Had he had surgery soon after diagnosis, the chances are excellent he would still be alive today. In cancer treatment, time is still one of the most important factors. Jobs wasted his time on eastern bullshit, the cancer metastasized to his liver and probably other organs and killed him. The moral of this story is, if you're diagnosed with a life threatening illness, do what works and don't waste time with bullshit.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

27. Jobs was asymptomatic and not metastasized when it was discovered.

His tumor was discovered incidentally on a abdomen CT ordered for another reason.

So was my partner's PNET. The week he scheduled his surgery his step dad was diagnosed with adenocarcinoma with liver mets - his step dad was dead in 5 weeks.

[rexcat]

12. You really needed to see the first video...

In that video a friend of Steve Jobs said Jobs told him that he made a mistake by seeking alternative eastern medicine instead of being treated by Western standards of medicine in the beginning. It appears that Steve Jobs would have had a 95% cure rate if his cancer would have been treated with Western style medicine. I will go out on a limb and say the standard of care for Jobs pancreatic cancer would have been surgical resection of the tumor and probable adjuvant chemotherapy post-surgery. My opinion is based on my 18 years of oncology research experience. He did end up getting treated with Western style medical treatment but by the time he received the treatment it was too late to cure. He did last 9 years after his initial diagnosis but at great sacrifice in health status and eventual death from the disease.

It is always good to see people like yourself go on a tangent without knowing the facts. I would only hope you don't continue down this path when it comes to your own health or your family's health for the consequences might come at a very high price!

On edit: Steve Jobs was an IDIOT for what he did initially by not getting the best of what "Western" medicine had to offer because in the end he died a lot younger than he should have.

[Live and Learn]

15. It is equally reassuring to see people like yourself

go off on a rant based upon a single video (which as I stated previously, won't even play) and hearsay.

Jobs MAY have wished he had tried the conventional treatment but not doing so does not make him an idiot. People have the right to make informed decisions regarding their own bodies and I am quite certain Jobs was informed.

And your supposition regarding my medical care is quite wrong. I have never sought alternative treatments but if I wanted to I sure wouldn't ask your permission.

Edited to add: This CNN article doesn't support your view of his better odds with conventional treatment:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/06/health/conditions/pancreatic-cancer-steve-jobs/

Given that Jobs underwent surgery to remove his tumor in 2004 and died in 2011, his seven-year survival after treatment is consistent with the average survival for these kinds of tumors, Libutti said.

When they talk about survival rates, it is usually based on five years. By that definition, Jobs was clearly a survivor.

I am not sure why you have such a need to insult others and their views but it certainly isn't very helpful in getting your point across.

[rexcat]

16. It does play...

but you would have to go to YouTube to watch it. I just watched it 20 minutes ago. If you are not computer savvy that is your problem not mine.

You really don't know what you are talking about when it comes to oncology. He was treated late because his surgical and chemotherapy treatment was delayed because he initially went with an alternative approach to his illness. He admitted this to his friend who was interviewed in the first video and Jobs told his friend to seek real medical care (as in Western style medicine). In the end Steve Jobs knew he fucked up and he was telling his friend not to do the same. He lost valuable time with the "alternative approach" to his disease. His disease progressed to the point of no return before he got real treatment for his disease. It would appear you think alternative medicine is real treatment. Guess what, it isn't!

Survival rates are based on timeframes, not just 5 year survival rates. Yes, Steve Jobs survived > 5 years after he started standard western treatments. Those treatments that could have saved his life if they had been initiated at the time of diagnosis but they were delayed because he chose an alternative treatment which caused his chance of long term survival to diminish exponentially. His outcome would have been a lot better if, after being initially diagnosed, if he would have received the proper treatment (surgical resection and adjuvant chemotherapy) not the quackery alternative treatment he got at the beginning. From what the physician said in the first video Jobs had a 95% chance for cure, NOT FIVE YEAR SURVIVAL!!!!! The opinion you express has nothing to do with the facts.

Here is the link to the video. After clicking on the video then you will need to click on "Watch on YouTube" within the frame of the video. If that doesn't work I can PM you the link.

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[Live and Learn]

17. It didn't play on my browser when I attempted it yesterday.

As for me not being computer savvy, it will come as quite a surprise to my employer since II work in the field.

I have since lost interest in seeing the video or responding to any more posts in this thread.

[Warpy]

28. That first link has a link to You Tube

Some people refuse embedding. A link to the video on You Tube is always on the screen.

There are different tumors of the pancreas. One or two of them are resectable and curable. Jobs had one of those.

If it had been a different kind with a very bad prognosis even with heroics, I'd have supported his refusal of treatment. Sometimes heroics aren't just worth it, not lengthening life span and making what's left miserable.

Anyone who gets a diagnosis needs to get a second opinion on treatment and whether palliative care might increase life span over heroics.

[mucifer]

6. Realize how far we have gone on treating pediatric cancer. It's great.

Now about 75% of pediatric cancers are cured with modern treatments.http://jpepsy.oxfordjournals.org/content/30/1/1.full

I'd hate to go back to the treatments of 50 years ago.

Adult stats will never be as good as the pediatric stats because you have to consider there are many people over 80 years old with cancer who also have other diseases. Kids with cancer are usually otherwise healthy.

[blkmusclmachine]

7. ,

,

[marble falls]

9. 95% cure rate in early treatment of Panreatic cancer? DU made me a little less dumb again today!....

I don't know that alternative treatments are worthless. I don't know that Western medicine is always effective, either. I do know regardless of which treatment is used a good attitude about it is important. I would have thought 8 or 9 years with Pancreatic cancer was a good outcome. Where was Job's cancer when it was found? At the 95% curable with western medicine or at the extended life rate with alternative treatment?

[Hassin Bin Sober]

21. He had a PNET - Pancreatic Nueroendocrine Tumor

Not Adenocarcinoma. Adenocarcinoma is the bad kind that kills you in weeks.

PNETS are highly treatable with surgery and tend not to metastasize. But when they do metastasize you have problems because they don't respond well to chemo.

[ProgressSaves]

23. Eastern medicine is a fucking joke.

Western medicine and culture surpasses Eastern culture and medicine in numerous ways.

They have attributes that would enhance Western culture, but I'd pick a Western nation over an Eastern nation any day of the week.

[pangaia]

26. OH !

"Eastern medicine is a fucking joke." Oh my !

What is "Eastern culture?"
In what ways does Western culture 'surpass' Eastern culture?