The Real History of Stalin, WWII, and the Soviet Union

[AProgressiveThinker]

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[Journeyman]

1. Keep reading . . .

[AProgressiveThinker]

2. ?

[mckara]

14. I Have a Suggestion...

Read a variety of academic texts covering this period objectively and not with hopes of reaching a conclusion. I received a master's degree in military history and your claims of the West minimizing the role of the Soviet Union are completely off base. Soviet troops carried the brunt of the load when fighting against the Nazis, who wanted recapture territory they overran in the First World War. The United States contributed vital matériel with which the Soviets were able to take the war to the Germans. Nathan Bedford Forrest never said, "git thar fustest with the mostest," but the ability to concentrate an army's supplies and personnel in crucial areas during battles often determines the victor. The Soviets did not have the industrial strength to win quickly on the Eastern Front without support from the Western allies, especially when one analyzes their means of supplying their front-line units. The subject is more complex than you stated, but more reading will help you gain a wider perspective.

[AProgressiveThinker]

16. You're right about the industry

Yes, the industrial part of America contributing weapons to the Soviet Union is true, which is why the Soviet Union had to partially integrate into the world Capitalist economy during World War II. I should have stated this in my video and given more credit to the West in it but my main point was that, the Soviet Union won the large majority of the war in actual fighting. Obviously, America was still vital for giving weapons to the Soviet Union, though.

[mckara]

17. The US Help with Logistics, Primarily

Soviet technology and weaponry were, by and large, indigenous and often superior to other weapons. The T-34 tank was absolutely the best tank of the era, not because they were appreciably better than German tanks, but because they matched German firepower and were produced in great quantities, which Germany could not do. The West assisted the Soviets by sending supply trucks and other logistical support. The secret to winning battles is simple in theory, but, often, difficult to achieve: concentrate overwhelming firepower on the enemy. The Second War War was the epitome of industrialized warfare requiring vast amounts of human resources and matériel. I could go on, but you were advocating the necessity for socialist policies using the Stalinist period as an example, which is a tough sell.

If you ever want to make an argument about the origins of American socialism, you can read Frederick Jackson Turner's essays on the American frontier from which emerged progressive and collectivist ideas. (Yes, the Turner who wrote The Significance of the Frontier on American History.) The vastness of the West presented problems too big for individual pioneers and nascent communities to overcome without the assistance from government of the people, by the people, for the people, an idea frontiersmen had taken to heart. You will be able to make a case for socialism that is as American as apple pie. Imagine how many conservative's heads will explode they hear your presentation!

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/turner/

[AProgressiveThinker]

18. I did not use the Stalinist period as an example for Socialism

Last edited Wed Apr 23, 2014, 08:05 PM - Edit history (1)

When did I do that? I just said that certain Socialist aspects of Soviet society like universal healthcare, free housing, full employment, and free, universal education are desirable. I am not a Leninist, and largely prefer Libertarian Socialist experiments like the Spanish Revolution, the fabricas recuperadas in Argentina, or the Free Territory of Ukraine than Leninist experiments albeit I will defend aspects of certain Leninist experiments like certain Socialist aspects of the USSR and Cuban Socialism.

[mckara]

19. Libertarian Socialism

I haven't read much about libertarian socialism until reading your reply last night. It's an interesting concept that I should investigate more thoroughly before trying to form an opinion on its viability. I know that neoliberal capitalism is destroying the planet and hollowing-out democratic institutions. I think the American Experiment of government of, by, and for the people is the ideal form of government, but it's beginning to look like it is only viable when the democratic equivalent of philosopher kings serve in elective offices. Our current state of affairs demonstrates that most officials are elected because they have money to sell their propaganda and the public doesn't recognize they are blithering idiots with little knowledge of history, economics, American government, compassion, or common sense. Our society needs to change. Thanks for sharing your observations and ideas!

[Drunken Irishman]

3. I think most people are well aware of the Soviets impact in WWII...

My grandfather actually linked up with the Soviets while fighting in Europe.

But that doesn't negate anything Stalin did - and the impact he had on world history. The irony, I guess, is that in fighting off Hitler, Stalin took up his mantle and ran with it - becoming a brutal dictator in very much the same vein.

It should be pointed out that there is growing evidence Stalin's purge most likely ended up killing over 10 million people.

[AProgressiveThinker]

6. Stalin was a brutal, ruthless dictator

And his actions should be condemned as I say in the video, although, it is highly unlikely he killed over 10 million people. I'll leave you with this if you are interested.

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html

[TreasonousBastard]

4. Who's this "we" who should be defending Stalin?

[AProgressiveThinker]

7. When did I defend Stalin?

[vrp]

5. Well done! However...

I will say as a response that the brutality of Stalin cannot be over stated. He was a mass murderer who killed more people than Hitler. In my view, there are three primary reasons why the Soviet Union died.

1. It was very corrupt. Party insiders got the best of everything while the "working class" got the leftovers. This bred a lot of discontent.
2. It was a one party state that punished dissent. Freedom of assembly and criticism of the government was not allowed, and even resulted in arrest. This cannot be overstated.
3. I don't believe post S.U. ever escaped the crimes of Stalin.

I believe that if not for these factors, the S.U. would be alive and well today. Fate is very fickle. If the Trotsky faction could have won out over Stalin, things could have been different. We'll never know.

Progressive Thinker's analysis, although well done, is sugar coated. Yes, WWII could have been lost if not for the Soviet army, but that says more about the stupidity of Hitler rather than the greatness of Stalin. I'm actually angry that Stalin corrupted what could have been a great experiment.

[AProgressiveThinker]

8. I agree with most of this

The Soviet Union was a totalitarian police state where the fruits generated by the labor of the working class was enjoyed by Party officials rather than the general population as I state in the video. I, however, don't believe Stalin killed more than Hitler. Stalin was a brutal, ruthless dictator and according to multiple sources which I will leave a link to killed around 7 million people whereas Hitler killed around 12 million. The Soviet Union probably would have looked a lot different if Trotsky had become the General Secretary and we could be living in a worldwide Socialist Republic right now if that had happened. Thanks for your feedback.

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html

[vrp]

10. Try again!

I do believe your perspective is off center. We can talk about building a just society free of capitalistic exploitation without using the Soviet Union as an example. Perhaps start with the Social Democratic countries like Sweden, and build from there. Why didn't you use Cuba as an example instead? Castro is a small "d" dictator not known for murdering people. Not to mention that Cuba has a near 100% literacy rate and and pretty good socialized medicine. All that accomplished while the U.S. govt has been trying to murder him for the past 50 years. I do believe you could have used a different approach to make your point. Commenting that Stalin only murdered 7 million, but less than Hitler, does not serve the cause of building a better society. Please, rethink your approach.

[AProgressiveThinker]

13. I don't think you're understanding my point

1. Stalin was a completely brutal, ruthless dictator. All I am saying is that he did not kill half of his population and I never said that he "only" killed 7 million. 7 million is an astronomical number and Stalin was a monster. Yes, he killed millions, can we drop that part of the subject?
2. I do mention Cuba in the video but that wasn't the subject of the video as the Soviet Union was. And, you're right, the Cuban Revolution has achieved marvels for the working class in Cuba (albeit, it still is a pretty authoritarian country)
3. The Scandinavian countries are not Socialist. The majority of their wealth for their sprawling social programs comes from taxes from corporations who monopolize third world markets and exploit third world workers.

Stalinist Socialism sucks hard, and maybe I didn't make that clear enough in the video, but the point of the video was not to embrace certain Socialist countries, it was to disprove astronomical myths about the USSR. Now, if you wanna talk about Socialism, here are some good examples.

-Fábricas recuperadas in Argentina
-Bolivarian Circles in Venezuela
-People's Republic of Kampuchea
-Bavarian Soviet Republic
-Tito's Yugoslavia
-Lenin's USSR
-Bienio Rosso in Italy
-May 1968 general strike in France
-Paris Commune
-Strandzha Commune
-Spanish Revolution (although, the actions of the Communists and the revolutionary Anarchists attacking and murdering each other should be condemned greatly)
-Free Territory in Ukraine
-Zapatistas in Mexico

[Spitfire of ATJ]

9. There was a poll where students thought we fought WITH the Germans against the Soviets.

[vrp]

11. wow

Now that is a serious indictment against our educational system!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

12. More like an anti-commie fixation....

It's how you can run into a Moran who honestly believes the Nazis were Leftists.

[dembotoz]

15. ww2 germany vs russia was very nasty stuff.

and it was and is very undercovered in this here united states

i grew up in cold war america and to admit to russias contribution during the war would have been called treason

stuff just was never taught here.