Pic Of The Moment: The American Tradition Of Inconveniencing Motorists: A Curious Double Standard

[EarlG]

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[Arkansas Granny]

1. That certainly puts things in perspective.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

30. Not only that

but it helps you see the trees in the forest. The trees need more water and sunlight!

[yeoman6987]

83. I cringe at all the carbon emissions going into the atmosphere

That is my biggest problem with it. They are destroying the Earth. Yes protesting is fine but what a huge price we are paying.

[MadDAsHell]

2. I was actually having this exact conversation yesterday. For what it's worth...

My (usually) idiot co-worker did have a point. He noted that you're talking about two entirely different cause-effect scenarios.

Traffic jams happen because of crowded sporting events and holiday shopping, but they are an unintended result, not the intent. I can't imagine someone going to a sporting event or going holiday shopping specifically because they want to cause a traffic jam.

Traffic jams caused by marching down the 101 and 110 freeways in Los Angeles are not an unintended result. Disrupting and inconveniencing is the entire point of the protest, so that people hear the message.

[cstanleytech]

5. To be perfectly honest I hate them all and dont care if its the unintended result of a

stupid sporting event (like we have here with the Masters) or an intended one like the one that was caused in Fort Lane, NJ.

[Bluenorthwest]

8. And what of the LA Marathon, an event designed to close down streets all over the city?

Can't hold the event without shutting down miles and miles of streets. And the point of doing that is to run a race, just as the point of demonstrators closing a road to to protest. Closing the roads in both cases is just a tactic not the actual motive.

[amandabeech]

14. One difference is that the LA Marathon, and most marathons, are held on weekends and holidays,

and that routes that are to be closed are known well in advance. People can plan around the event then.

Spontaneous protests in the streets often take motorists and pedestrians by surprise. Imagine having a truly bad day at work and then realize that the time for your trip home has tripled. Imagine too being a single parent and having to pick your children up at their after school program by 6:30 or face having your child expelled.

Most people here would be understanding, particularly if they didn't have to pick their child up, but not everyone has the DU attitude.

NYC ususally allows demonstrations and parades on Sundays and holidays only (or it did when I lived and worked there) and the parade and rally locations and their times were known well in advance. Very, very few people complained.

Perhaps there could be a Sunday march and rally soon. That would allow many more people, including us old folks, an opportunity to protest, too. Right now I'm undergoing therapy for my back, and there's no way that I could go marching around Manhattan even if I lived there and wanted with all my heart to do so. But a rally, where I could bring my cane/seat or my over the shoulder "quiver" of a nylon chair would be great!

[Demeter]

18. I'd like to see you plan around a marathon that blocks your only access to the world

for hours. Like I have to contend with at least twice a year.

[amandabeech]

24. I'd plan to be out of the area, or be ready for a list of things to do at home.

It's about like what you do when there's a 70% chance of a strong Lake Effect snow event. You either get ready or you spend a couple of days in a place inland where the snow bands don't reach.

[Travis_0004]

50. You have advance notice and know the exact street closings.

You can plan your day around the closings.

[Thor_MN]

54. I grew up on a marathon route, very close to the halfway point.

Still have to deal with it as it now passes the marina where I keep my boat.

I some how manage.

[bvar22]

57. You all should try Mardi Gras in New Orleans,

......and then talk to me about closed streets.

[cstanleytech]

63. While I have never been there I have heard its pretty bad.

Here all we have to contend with is only a week or so of some of the major roads closing for the Masters every year.

[bvar22]

68. Good?... Bad?

Depends on your point of view.

If you believe you are going to drive through New Orleans on Mardi Gras,
then you are in for a very bad time.

However, If one happens to live Uptown,
and can walk all day, that is whole different experience.

[sabrina 1]

86. Ever drive on the Long Island Expressway ANY day of the week? I have, be prepared to sit in your

car on your way from work as if you were in a parking lot. No use complaining about it, it's just the way it is.

Compared to that, being delayed once in a while by a protest against Americans being murdered by their so-called Civilian police, is not something I would object to.

[jeff47]

23. No, it's quite intended to have a traffic jam around holiday shopping or sporting events

We know plenty about designing the traffic flow around such a place to minimize traffic congestion.

We don't do that. In fact, we do quite the opposite. We intentionally cause traffic jams around those things. It's a lot cheaper than doing it right, and a lot of retailers like the extra income - people waiting for the traffic to clear get bored and buy stuff.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

32. Point 1, same results, regardless, Point 2- traffic jams are the INTENDED result of marching down

major busy thoroughfares.

On edit: sorry I misread the second part of your post. Please ignore.

[rock]

3. Hammer, nail, head!

Excellent EarlG!
+1

[NashuaDW]

4. Where's the double standard??

Those folks choose to go shopping, go the sporting event, and let baby ducks cross ... That's a lot different than a group breaking the law and to protest something I may or may not care about.

Blocking traffic and making people late for work will NEVER persuade someone to agree with your position.

[babylonsister]

6. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly...

fyi, it's not breaking the law.



https://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/human-rights/what-are-human-rights/human-rights-act/article-11-right-protest-and-freedom-association

Article 11 Right to protest and freedom of association
Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly. This is a right closely linked to the right to freedom of expression.

It provides a means for public expression and is one of the foundations of a democratic society.

The right applies to protest marches and demonstrations, press conferences, public and private meetings, counter-demonstrations, ‘sit-ins’, motionless protests etc.

more...

[amandabeech]

15. Yes, but as a practical matter, under the US Constitution, courts have held that governmental

entities, like cities, can require parade or rally permits and impose reasonable space and time limitations. Parade or rally permits cannot be unreasonably withheld nor can their grant bem withheld due to the race, gender, ethnic origin or religion of the protestors, or the message of the organizers; e.g., Illinois Nazis. I observed one of their rallies at Federal Plaza in Chicago on a Sunday afternoon in the summer when I had to go in to work to finish something up.

[AllyCat]

33. Governor Walker would love your expertise at the Capitol

For noon solidarity singalongs. I mean, those people can get permission like any right wing group to exercise their free speech. Now if they had MONEY, that would be free speech.

[RoccoR5955]

43. Observed, or participated?

These pop-up rallies are the only means that folks have. Do you think that it would have the same effect, if it was planned for a weekend, two weeks after the occurrence? Maybe they could have planned an action in advance, had they known in advance of the decision.
You know, sometimes you just have to wake people up, and this is one non-violent way to do so.
The big climate march in NYC was well planned, and still people complained about the traffic. They didn't complain when the NYC marathon was run. There IS a difference. Many of the people who will not agree with you if you have an instant rally and block traffic, are not going to agree with you no matter what.

[amandabeech]

45. Observed from my office building.

Don't worry the Nazis were well opposed. They were out-numbered by about thirty to one. I couldn't hear what they were saying because the opposition, with which I agree, was so loud. After about ten minutes, the cops told them to leave, and they left very quickly. I was told by one of my colleagues on Monday that the Chicago cops says something like, "We can no longer guarantee your safety." That's the clue to get out of Dodge.

[jberryhill]

47. Any problem with people who have sit-ins on sidewalks in front of abortion clinics?

And, if it is about being "too close", then it is okay to block the street and sidewalk at both ends of the block where there is an abortion clinic, is that correct?

Or is there a "that's different" depending on what people are protesting or what they believe?

[babylonsister]

48. That's rarely a peaceful protest, afaik. nt

[jberryhill]

49. That wasn't my question, now was it?

So, on those rare occasions when you admit it is a peaceful protest, it should still be broken up, correct or no?

And perhaps I misunderstand the meaning of the chant "No Justice, No Peace". Does that not state, in shorter form, "we will continue not to be peaceful until there is justice?"

"I don't want no peace,
I want equal rights and justice."

- Peter Tosh

[babylonsister]

60. Whatever your question is, I was responding to the

person who claimed public protests are illegal. They're not, regardless of who is doing them.
And you're right; if someone was in my face as I entered an abortion clinic, I wouldn't be too happy with that.

I don't quite know what you're arguing about, why, and with me.

[jberryhill]

65. so you are opposed to the laws about abortion protests?

Several states have made it illegal to protest abortion within a specified number of feet of an abortion facility.

Likewise, states have passed laws about how close one can have a protest near a cemetery, because of the Westboro Baptist Church funeral protests.

But, in general and as applied to everybody, you believe it is legal to stand on a roadway if one is protesting something, as far as I can understand. Is that correct?

[babylonsister]

67. Go argue with someone who wants to argue with you. I don't. nt

[jberryhill]

72. I'm trying to understand what you said

Discussing is not arguing.

[7962]

89. Well, thats a good question. And I think your last sentence says it all.

There seems to be a lot of it around here. Its fun calling tea partiers or republicans all kinds of names,hoping Scalia dies or Cheneys heart explodes, but when one of THEM does it, its an OP that gets 400 replies and just as many recs.

If its ok to block access to a store or a road, then why wouldnt it also be just as ok to block access to a clinic??

[father founding]

7. double stupitity

Why in the world would you put up with waiting in traffic to go shopping or going to a sporting event when you could shop online or watch the event on TV ?, and don't get me started with the "f" ing ducks.

[amandabeech]

22. I don't like to have to ship stuff back because it doesn't fit or I don't like it.

I try to pick the less congested times, but I will deal with traffic and crowds rather than return for most clothing and soft goods.

TV/streaming, even with the latest equipment, just isn't the same as being there for many sporting and entertainment events. I find that hockey and figure skating just don't translate well even to large screen HD TV.

Not everyone is the same.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

52. Thank god we didnt have people like you in the 60's when inconveniencing people

is one way we stopped the Vietnam War.

[Recursion]

71. Bang-up job you did stopping the war that dragged on until the Ford administration

Come to think of it the war continued escalating during the entire mass protest period.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

81. speechless

[Recursion]

82. You brought up the effectiveness of these protests, not me

And for the record I have no problem with protests like this, but I don't think they accomplish very much.

[cstanleytech]

64. Atleast your boss might understand but my concern is for the people trying to either pick up their

children from somewhere or say trying to get to someone they are a primary caregiver for and people who break the law by purposely block traffic are putting peoples lives at risk and imo those people are as big an asshole as Christina Genovese Renna is.

[1StrongBlackMan]

9. Wow ... I can't believe the "that's different" crowd ...

the person trying to get to work (i.e., Not having attended the sporting event; Not going to/coming from shopping; Not a part of the duck crossing; Not participating in the protest) is the person of relevance here ... And that Non-participant, doesn't give a damn about the cause of the traffic jam, making her late to work.

I have not heard much concerned outrage for that poor Jane trying to get to work in the former three cases; but plenty, about the latter.

See EG's point "That's different" crowd?

[turbinetree]

10. Police State

We live in a POLICE STATE

[Spitfire of ATJ]

11. Murdering people for JAYWALKING.

[BumRushDaShow]

12. Ain't that the truth!

[AtheistCrusader]

13. None of this is going to help in the short run.

We've got their attention maybe, some small drips and trickles of change are getting planned, mostly for show.

You've already GOT a critical mass of people. Plenty. More than enough. Camp around the Governor's house for a week. Make HIS (or her) happy ass telecommute to work. Protest around your town/city councils. Your legislators.

These people are the people who set/control police policy, who hold the purse strings. Make their jobs suck. THEN shit will change.

[jwirr]

16. I have wondered what they accomplish when they shut down a highway? I can see shutting down

a road in a city where an event such as these killings actually took place. Especially areas near the police stations etc. DC makes sense also because it is a center of our laws.

But does it make sense in other areas? Why mess up traffic for drivers who are not complicit in the problem. I love Minneapolis and that they often protest for various causes. But aren't they just making enemies if they keep people from getting home or to work on time? Maybe even people who support our side of the issue.

I think the problem is that the media would not even mention it if it did not cause some kind of problem. The media wants something sensational and preferably illegal. Thus we shut down a road. Maybe we should shut down the roads around the media headquarters.

[heaven05]

21. Americans are complicit

in allowing these murders to go on and on and on........if they make enemies of people inconvenienced, they were enemies all along. Simple.

[jwirr]

25. That is a very broad brush. Sounds like bushes if you are not with us you are against us. By the

way many of us have fought for civil rights since the 60s - we are not complicit. But we may have children coming home or be losing our job if we are not on time. That of course is fine. I do not see it that way.

[heaven05]

36. I said americans are complicit

and I've been fighting since the 60's also. The point is NOT ENOUGH americans have stood up and said no more, and given the result of the last election that number who's saying no more, is still going down. Don't try to muddy the waters with some kind if deflective statement that is not true. Those with us are less and less each fucking day it seems. Please I read the responses on many boards and the hate and racism out there as exemplified by americans, is legion. If MORE americans stood against the murder and executions of unarmed, non resisting black people, the less would be inconvenienced and/or late for work. Those damn people marching against murder and slaughter by police ought to be ashamed of themselves inconveniencing people and making them late for work...... I hope it never stops.......if I could walk a ways, which i can't or had one of those motorized scooters which I can't afford, I would be out there with those marchers.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

53. Oh give me a BREAK , Bush's if you are not with us? for christ SAKE

And if such a thing turns anyone away from the protest, then that is their problem and it is a BIG problem

Americans really dont remember much if that is the case

[AllyCat]

29. Because Anytown, USA is probably next

[jwirr]

31. Of course. I was not saying they should NOT protest. Merely do it in some way that does not

turn people away from the whole protest.

[Hatchling]

37. Do you remember all those huge anti Iraq war protests?

Probably not very well. They were huge and MSM didn't report on them. The message didn't get out there.

If you shut traffic down, it gets reported and the message gets out.

It seems to me if people don't get inconvenienced they really don't pay attention. ANd things will never be changed.

[jwirr]

39. I realize that is why it is being done this way. No one is paying any attention to anything today.

[Sirveri]

56. It got the medias attention... now what, will anything actually happen?

That's the problem, those who actually control the levers of power just don't give a damn. Oh you inconvenienced the peasants who have to work for a living and happened to be on the freeway at 8PM on a monday night... and I should care because? They don't give a damn and they won't budge because they know you won't or can't hurt them, they're simply too insulated from harm.

[BlueJazz]

17. I don't mind if the protests slow down traffic I am in. At least, I get to see people ...

...who care enough to do something, in their own way, to express their outrage.
I sit in "Church Traffic" every fucking Sunday. No, I don't go to church but I have to wait almost forever while the cops stop traffic and empty out the parking lots of the fucking church. (usually 30-25-minures)
...here in Florida.

[RoccoR5955]

44. You have

a Fucking Church, and you don't go? What's the matter, don't you like sex?

[BlueJazz]

46. That's why they threw me out of Church.

[Thor_MN]

55. Wow, you mean there is more to "This is my body, given for you?"

All I ever got was a stupid little hunk of styrofoam...

[heaven05]

19. excellent example

of american hypocrisy. I do stop for momma duck and her ducklings, though. We have a lot around here, Geese and goslings also.

[Demeter]

20. Would they rather we all boycotted shopping?

There's a win-win scenario....stay home, save money, screw the Man, and get some chores done all at the same time....

[jwirr]

26. I like this way of protesting but I realize boycotts do not work as easily as they sound. Sit ins

and the die-ins are also good way to protest. There are many ways to protest that can be used.

[AllyCat]

27. Perfect EarlG!

[Progressive dog]

28. There is no double standard

because only one of those is unnecessarily blocking traffic.

[stone space]

77. Which one?

because only one of those is unnecessarily blocking traffic.

[SHRED]

34. I haven't met anyone...

... who is okay with traffic jams caused by either sporting events or holiday shopping.

[Hatchling]

38. And I'm not okay with young black men getting shot needlessly.

Getting shot for something a white would get a worning or a ticket for.

[SHRED]

41. Agreed

[Arkansas Granny]

35. For those of you who are opposed to this, it's called civil disobedience.

Civil disobedience is usually defined as pertaining to a citizen's relation to the state and its laws, as distinguished from a constitutional impasse in which two public agencies, especially two equally sovereign branches of government, conflict. For instance, if the head of government of a country were to refuse to enforce a decision of that country's highest court, it would not be civil disobedience, since the head of government would be acting in her or his capacity as public official rather than private citizen.[19]

Ronald Dworkin held that there are three types of civil disobedience:
"Integrity-based" civil disobedience occurs when a citizen disobeys a law she or he feels is immoral, as in the case of northerners disobeying the fugitive slave laws by refusing to turn over escaped slaves to authorities.
"Justice-based" civil disobedience occurs when a citizen disobeys laws in order to lay claim to some right denied to her or him, as when blacks illegally protested during the Civil Rights Movement.
"Policy-based" civil disobedience occurs when a person breaks the law in order to change a policy (s)he believes is dangerously wrong.[20]

Some theories of civil disobedience hold that civil disobedience is only justified against governmental entities. Brownlee argues that disobedience in opposition to the decisions of non-governmental agencies such as trade unions, banks, and private universities can be justified if it reflects "a larger challenge to the legal system that permits those decisions to be taken". The same principle, she argues, applies to breaches of law in protest against international organizations and foreign governments.[21]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience

[Hatchling]

40. And it's about time! n/m

[BlancheSplanchnik]

42. god, that about says it.

But I'm glad they stop traffic for the ducks. Should be safe passways for all animals.

[Travis_0004]

51. Ive seen police help ducks get off the street

So traffic can resume. I dont want ducks to hang out on the street for 30 minute. If they did I might get out and help them cross

[PatrynXX]

58. my personal favourite ice storms

in the south where they think it's the end of the world and well get out of the cars and leave them on the highway (illegal!!)

[Captain Stern]

59. One of those things is not the same as the others.

In three of them, nobody's goal is to impede traffic and make other people's lives harder. (not sure about the ducks, but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt)

In one of them, it's intentional.

[mwrguy]

61. the sports and shopping examples ARE traffic

not something blocking traffic

[hughee99]

62. I remember back when intentionally causing a traffic

Jam created a dangerous situation and put lives at risk, but perhaps that's only when a republican with presidential aspirations causes it.

[jberryhill]

66. It's only dangerous if it is a Republican tying up traffic

That is correct.

[Flatulo]

69. Once again, you've nailed it, John.

The hypocrisy on display here is stunning

I couldn't even begin to count the posts screaming bloody murder about protesters blocking access to abortion clinics. And I agree - protesters should not block access to people going about their (legal) business. But shutting down streets and highways, which also blocks passage for emergency vehicles, is perfectly OK.

One of the mysteries of DU, I guess.

[jberryhill]

73. wow, long time no see!

[Flatulo]

75. Yeah, I'm still alive but rarely post. I find that DU

has become quite hostile to people who don't march in lockstep. Plus, all the 'straight white males are racist, KKK misogynist bastards' posts are wearisome.

Still, you've always had an intriguing thought process, making you one of the most sensible people I've met online.

Peace, dude.

[SoapBox]

70. Sadly...yup.

[marym625]

74. got 44 retweets on this

I realize that's a really small number but for me, it's pretty good.

Great meme. Thanks for it!

[Gothmog]

76. This is great

[stone space]

78. I brake for ducks.

And for people, too.

[stone space]

79. Militant nonviolence is inconvenient.

Who knew?

[liberalhistorian]

80. Digustingly enough, there are plenty of posters

right here on what is supposed to be a liberal, progressive site, that were moaning and groaning and complaining and whining about what an inconvenience their drive home would be and how stupid it was and how dare they try to interrupt such a "sacred" ceremony as the lighting of the Christmas tree, yaddayaddayaddablahblah.

No insight at all as to how "inconvenient" it is every single day for non-whites, especially boys and men, just to go about their daily lives with the constant worry about police harassment for nothing OTHER than going about their daily lives. No insight at all into the larger picture and the broader purpose, just seeing things from their own bubble world. Sad and disgusting. Especially on here, of all places.

[backscatter712]

88. Just publicly tell them their Concern is noted... n/t

[Initech]

84. If the cops would stop murdering people, no one would be complaining.

[lonestarnot]

85. Murdering cops are causing more than a traffic jam.

[backscatter712]

87. Hell, people here on DU come just to express their Heartfelt Concern...

...when protesters for civil rights dare to block the streets.

Because their timely drive to get take-out Chinese takes priority, obviously.