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How Capitalism is Killing Itself with Dr. Richard Wolff (Original Post) desmiller Mar 2016 OP
I'm favorably inclined toward socialism, cheapdate Mar 2016 #1
I am....and I'm not Warpy Mar 2016 #5
Or as the great philosopher Pete Townshend once said, cheapdate Mar 2016 #7
Here's the real problem: Hydra Mar 2016 #12
So very good. LiberalArkie Mar 2016 #2
Capital, Volume I, Chapter 25: Jack Rabbit Mar 2016 #3
I love Richard Wolfe passiveporcupine Mar 2016 #4
for some , screaming is not a bad thing. desmiller Mar 2016 #8
I love Michael Jackson, but I have to admit passiveporcupine Mar 2016 #9
no biggie. desmiller Mar 2016 #10
Marx gave us the perfect diagnosis of free-market capitalism d_legendary1 Mar 2016 #6
This is great! Hydra Mar 2016 #11
"We can do better. We must." desmiller Mar 2016 #13

cheapdate

(3,811 posts)
1. I'm favorably inclined toward socialism,
Sun Mar 27, 2016, 04:50 PM
Mar 2016

but I had to pause at 1:02 in at, "Marx is considered the most influential philosopher to ever live."

Look, I've read some Marx. His insights into economics, especially his criticisms of capitalism, were brilliant and remain relevant today. If he had stopped there his legacy as an economic thinker would be forever secure. But he didn't. His forays into telology, historicism, etc. are mildly embarrassing.

I'm sorry, maybe some people consider Marx the most influential philosopher to ever live but its not a big group.

The field is huge. John Locke's profound influence on the revolutionary thinking behind the American revolution is terrifically underestimated. Locke in turn was influenced by Spinoza, the bold and outspoken Dutch atheist. Francis Bacon's influence on scientific thought was enormous. John Stuart Mill's utilitarianism has had a long and consequential influence on public life. Plato. The list goes on.

I'll try to resume the video later. I'm sure it has interesting things to say.

Warpy

(111,254 posts)
5. I am....and I'm not
Sun Mar 27, 2016, 05:32 PM
Mar 2016

The problem we've seen, especially in Communist countries, is that there are still people at the top who try to pass their power on to their relatives, who surround themselves with the trappings of wealth, and who basically parasite off the workers just the way the moneyed aristocracy does.

Wolff also glosses over the fact that capitalism did work for us all for a while when all the New Deal programs were in place. It can be a reasonable system if it is regulated heavily enough to favor the producers (workers) over the parasites. The whole promise of the New Deal was that one worked, was paid well enough for a fairly decent life during which one could save for a retirement that would not be spent in penury. It worked exactly like that for the people who came of age during and immediately after WWII. The problem was that those people were then suckers for Republicans who couldn't wait to dismantle the New Deal so that the rich could get richer faster.

What we saw for that one generation is that capitalism could work if supplemented by a good dose of socialism and constraints on the gathering of extreme wealth.

I don't see any pure system working well at all. We already know what has worked in the past. What we need to figure out is how to get there again and what to do about the next slick corporate snake oil salesman who comes along to try to dismantle it.

Hydra

(14,459 posts)
12. Here's the real problem:
Sun Mar 27, 2016, 08:49 PM
Mar 2016

"What to do about the next slick corporate snake oil salesman who comes along to try to dismantle it."

The Moneyed class successfully subverted the people who lived through the depression into dismantling all of those items FDR tried to put in place to make capitalism more reasonable. That's what Capitalism does, and will always do- work around or destroy limits placed on it.

On top of that, we're seeing another deadly aspect of Capitalism: It has to grow. It wants to grow in ways that are destructive to us as a species because it always picks the cheapest or easiest ways to grow, not the best ones. Climate change, order up!

We'll have to do something different, and to address your concern, no we can't have people with excessive power in the system who will predictably abuse it. One of the things that's come up as an option as technology has improved is a direct democratic process. Policies and funding put up for vote that we can vote on in almost real time. Congress becomes us.

Jack Rabbit

(45,984 posts)
3. Capital, Volume I, Chapter 25:
Sun Mar 27, 2016, 05:16 PM
Mar 2016

What does the primitive accumulation of capital, i.e., its historical genesis, resolve itself into? In so far as it is not immediate transformation of slaves and serfs into wage labourers, and therefore a mere change of form, it only means the expropriation of the immediate producers, i.e., the dissolution of private property based on the labour of its owner. Private property, as the antithesis to social, collective property, exists only where the means of labour and the external conditions of labour belong to private individuals. But according as these private individuals are labourers or not labourers, private property has a different character. The numberless shades, that it at first sight presents, correspond to the intermediate stages lying between these two extremes. The private property of the labourer in his means of production is the foundation of petty industry, whether agricultural, manufacturing, or both; petty industry, again, is an essential condition for the development of social production and of the free individuality of the labourer himself. Of course, this petty mode of production exists also under slavery, serfdom, and other states of dependence. But it flourishes, it lets loose its whole energy, it attains its adequate classical form, only where the labourer is the private owner of his own means of labour set in action by himself: the peasant of the land which he cultivates, the artisan of the tool which he handles as a virtuoso. This mode of production presupposes parcelling of the soil and scattering of the other means of production. As it excludes the concentration of these means of production, so also it excludes cooperation, division of labour within each separate process of production, the control over, and the productive application of the forces of Nature by society, and the free development of the social productive powers. It is compatible only with a system of production, and a society, moving within narrow and more or less primitive bounds. To perpetuate it would be, as Pecqueur rightly says, “to decree universal mediocrity". At a certain stage of development, it brings forth the material agencies for its own dissolution. From that moment new forces and new passions spring up in the bosom of society; but the old social organisation fetters them and keeps them down. It must be annihilated; it is annihilated. Its annihilation, the transformation of the individualised and scattered means of production into socially concentrated ones, of the pigmy property of the many into the huge property of the few, the expropriation of the great mass of the people from the soil, from the means of subsistence, and from the means of labour, this fearful and painful expropriation of the mass of the people forms the prelude to the history of capital. It comprises a series of forcible methods, of which we have passed in review only those that have been epoch-making as methods of the primitive accumulation of capital. The expropriation of the immediate producers was accomplished with merciless Vandalism, and under the stimulus of passions the most infamous, the most sordid, the pettiest, the most meanly odious. Self-earned private property, that is based, so to say, on the fusing together of the isolated, independent labouring individual with the conditions of his labour, is supplanted by capitalistic private property, which rests on exploitation of the nominally free labour of others, i.e., on wage labour.

As soon as this process of transformation has sufficiently decomposed the old society from top to bottom, as soon as the labourers are turned into proletarians, their means of labour into capital, as soon as the capitalist mode of production stands on its own feet, then the further socialisation of labour and further transformation of the land and other means of production into socially exploited and, therefore, common means of production, as well as the further expropriation of private proprietors, takes a new form. That which is now to be expropriated is no longer the labourer working for himself, but the capitalist exploiting many labourers. This expropriation is accomplished by the action of the immanent laws of capitalistic production itself, by the centralisation of capital. One capitalist always kills many. Hand in hand with this centralisation, or this expropriation of many capitalists by few, develop, on an ever-extending scale, the cooperative form of the labour process, the conscious technical application of science, the methodical cultivation of the soil, the transformation of the instruments of labour into instruments of labour only usable in common, the economising of all means of production by their use as means of production of combined, socialised labour, the entanglement of all peoples in the net of the world market, and with this, the international character of the capitalistic regime. Along with the constantly diminishing number of the magnates of capital, who usurp and monopolise all advantages of this process of transformation, grows the mass of misery, oppression, slavery, degradation, exploitation; but with this too grows the revolt of the working class, a class always increasing in numbers, and disciplined, united, organised by the very mechanism of the process of capitalist production itself. The monopoly of capital becomes a fetter upon the mode of production, which has sprung up and flourished along with, and under it. Centralisation of the means of production and socialisation of labour at last reach a point where they become incompatible with their capitalist integument. This integument is burst asunder. The knell of capitalist private property sounds. The expropriators are expropriated.

passiveporcupine

(8,175 posts)
4. I love Richard Wolfe
Sun Mar 27, 2016, 05:28 PM
Mar 2016

Last edited Sun Mar 27, 2016, 06:23 PM - Edit history (1)

But if you care for your sanity, skip the first two and a half minutes before he's introduced. The background music made me want to scream.

After watching this (and it is soooo good), I can't help but wonder what Hillary would think if she watched this. Would it phase her at all? Would it change her perspective on capitalism at all?

d_legendary1

(2,586 posts)
6. Marx gave us the perfect diagnosis of free-market capitalism
Sun Mar 27, 2016, 05:46 PM
Mar 2016

His cure sucked but his analysis on what happens when capitalism runs amok is spot on! This vid is great at showing the ugly side of capitalism by reminding us of the golden rule: he who has the gold makes the rules.

Hydra

(14,459 posts)
11. This is great!
Sun Mar 27, 2016, 08:40 PM
Mar 2016

I've seen the same message from different angles, but they all come to the same conclusion- capitalism only really "works" for a small segment of the population, and it prefers people who are willing to do illegal things to succeed...and it only "works" for short periods, and only as long as normal people are willing to sacrifice to those people to keep the system afloat.

We'll just have to see when this gets dustbinned forever. I think FDR was wrong to save it all those decades ago. We can do better. We must.

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