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Related: About this forumDustlawyer
(10,494 posts)Let's keep the political revolution going NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS!!!
no_hypocrisy
(46,030 posts)the latter advocating for privatization of public utilities and agencies and organizations.
Education is the key. Great Vid!
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)This is just weird.
People know me on here as a very vocal advocate for Democratic Socialism and Bernie Sanders. But. None of the examples listed are Democratic Socialism. Lots of places like the UK are not Democratic Socialist states and yet they still have national parks... And even single payer Healthcare.
Democratic Socialism, as espoused by Bernie Sanders:
"The Nordic model (also called Nordic capitalism[1] or Nordic social democracy)[2][3] refers to the economic and social policies common to the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Norway, Iceland and Sweden). This includes a combination of free market capitalism with a comprehensive welfare state and collective bargaining at the national level.
Although there are significant differences among the Nordic countries, they all share some common traits. These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government;[6] and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade.
Each of the Nordic countries has its own economic and social models, sometimes with large differences from its neighbours.[8] According to sociologist Lane Kenworthy, in the context of the Nordic model, "social democracy" refers to a set of policies for promoting economic security and opportunity within the framework of capitalism rather than a system to replace capitalism."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
It seems many Americans always get befuddled when the term "social" is attached to things... As Wikipedia notes:
"Particularly in the United States, the term "socialization" has been mistakenly used to refer to any state or government-operated industry or service (the proper term for such being either nationalization or municipalization). It has also been incorrectly used to mean any tax-funded programs, whether privately run or government run."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_ownership
National Parks aren't a result of social democracy. In fact you could still have national parks and ZERO unions. And a country with zero unions would NEVER be considered a Social Democracy.
This video at best muddies the waters.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)Are you insisting the term, "democratic socialism is more appropriately targeted to your single Wikipedia term, "social", which you insist is more properly "nationalization" or, "municipalization"? If so, that doesn't fit the definition of what YOU think to differ with AT ALL.
Sorry to you over this one, but when there are programs supported by the tax base (even though in the United States, the tax base has been bastardized by organizations who don't PAY INTO it), this defines, "socialized".
Were it to be labeled as municipalization, or nationalization, as you point out as the more correct term, this requires the same social contract to support those services that are either portioned through national (FICA) payroll, or state, and local taxes, it's undoubtedly socialized through that budgeted agreement under law.
If these are agreed upon, apparently through representative democracy, they become the source for state parks, NIH grants for medical research, and the programs that each state must then decide to apportion in the form of MORE socialized services. How else do you think each state funds in portion for public schools and road maintenance? In my state (PA) the liquid fuel tax at the pump apportions this towards our municipal roadways. The REST must be taken up by ordinances that local governments decide the taxpayers to fund.
It's SOCIALIZED and it is under a democratic form of national, state and local taxes. Therefore, it is the SAME thing Franklin D Roosevelt addressed to the American Public, which enabled old age benefits to assist those who were clearly poverty stricken BECAUSE there was NO socialized net of services. FDR's cousin Teddy assured the American public that it was NO LESS a social commitment to enable a system of public park systems.
This sounds like it irritated you, but that's why I commented. It irritates me when someone tries to remove the explanation I know to BE our system ALREADY in place... and in bad need of leveling on behalf of the other taxed socialized services offered in those countries you pointed out.
Peace out-
MMM
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)There's endless examples of countries that take taxes and don't do anything for people, and plenty of examples of money being raised not with taxes but through nationalised industries that are used to pay for social services.
You should listen to what Bernie says. He uses Scandinavian countries SPECIFICALLY as his standard, and those countries share a socio-economic system that has nothing to do with spending tax money on state parks or roads...
Nationalisation is NOT social democracy. Municipalisation is NOT social democracy. They're unrelated in that they can happily exist without each other. Many countries without strong unions or mandatory national labor agreements have roads... America for example. America is NOT a social democracy, which is why Bernie wants to make it into one. It makes little sense that Bernie is using other countries as an example of what he'd like America to be if it already is that, does it?
Only in America does socialised mean paid for my taxes, or government run, and that's because Americans have spent years being told that taxes are theft and communist Democrats want to tax you to death. But Bernie knows the ACTUAL meaning of these words and don't think Denmark is Denmark because it has roads. He doesn't think what makes Sweden unique is state parks. Or that Norway has a high standard of living because of libraries.
I know that it may be hard to let go of your ideas on this, but wikipedia is right: Americans misuse the term socialised. And that makes it hard to talk about things like Social Democracy. Bernie doesn't misuse this term though and refrences countries that don't misuse it either. You can't have it both ways though - Bernie can't mean libraries and roads when he talks about Denmark, can he? He can't mean sewers when he talks about Finland.
I appreciate that people want to make these terms less scary, but ad hock redefinitions isn't the way forward.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)(after the word salad surgery, doctor) ...
How would you classify programs introduced by FDR for old age that were created and funded through the trust known as social security?
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)are Nationalization...
Nationalization, or nationalisation, is the process of transforming private assets into public assets by bringing them under the public ownership of a national government or state.[1] Nationalization usually refers to private assets or assets owned by lower levels of government, such as municipalities, being transferred to the state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalization
Municipalization...
Municipalization is the transfer of corporations or other assets to municipal ownership. The transfer may be from private ownership (usually by purchase) or from other levels of government. It is the opposite of privatization and is different from nationalization.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipalization
or simply government programs.. like any other.
Note this paragraph from the Nationalization entry:
"Nationalization is to be distinguished from "socialization", which refers to the process of restructuring the economic framework, organizational structure, and institutions of an economy on a socialist basis. By contrast, nationalization does not necessarily imply social ownership and the restructuring of the economic system. By itself, nationalization has nothing to do with socialism, having been historically carried out for various different purposes under a wide variety of different political systems and economic systems.
So again, none of the WPA, or libraries or roads, is socialization.
Democratic Socialism isn't socialism either btw.
Socialism as a rule is about social ownership, not about everyone chipping in and then the government deciding how to spend the money, which is where you get libraries, roads, etc., etc. You may PAY for the roads, but you don't OWN them.
Democratic Socialism is - again - this:
The Nordic model (also called Nordic capitalism[1] or Nordic social democracy)[2][3] refers to the economic and social policies common to the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Norway, Iceland and Sweden). This includes a combination of free market capitalism with a comprehensive welfare state and collective bargaining at the national level.[4][5]
Although there are significant differences among the Nordic countries, they all share some common traits. These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government;[6] and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade.[7]
Each of the Nordic countries has its own economic and social models, sometimes with large differences from its neighbours.[8] According to sociologist Lane Kenworthy, in the context of the Nordic model, "social democracy" refers to a set of policies for promoting economic security and opportunity within the framework of capitalism rather than a system to replace capitalism.
Now, you might be confused, because Social Security is paid into, and then people take that money back out... but that's not socialism, any more than a bank is. You don't own social security and you certainly don't control it. At the VERY best you can vote for someone that promises to do something to it, with the help of congress, but we all know how likely those promises are to be kept.
Most often social security is changed AGAINST the will of the people. The people have no means to stop it happening either. That is NOT social ownership. And therefore not socialised.
sorechasm
(631 posts)Democratic Socialism. It is not a dangerous concept, but instead a social and economic policy, aspects of which have been very successful in this country since FDR. These aspects have been especially successful to counter-balance unfettered capitalism. Millions of Americans think that Democratic Socialism is the harbinger of communism. If National Parks, trash collection, and Unemployment Insurance, has not lead to communism, why would Democratic Socialism.
Technically you are correct, but you admit that the term has many meanings.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)but I also think that the way the video defines the term is pretty confusing.
When Sanders talks about why he wants to emulate Scandinavian countries, he certainly can't mean roads, and libraries, because we have those. And if we have them why are we trying to emulate a country that's the same as we are?
I think that a clear definition of the term would actually make it a lot more appealing!
- Protect workers
- Encourage unions
- Use welfare to promote individual success in a capitalist economy
It's basically capitalism, but where workers are prioritised.
That's NOT what a library or a road is about, and making it seem like it is is ... wrong. And frankly unnecessary. What will voters think if they google Denmark and put 2 and 2 together? They'll think that video is trying to manipulate them - or at the very least is clueless.
I just don't see how that helps anyone in the long run.
sorechasm
(631 posts)Such simple statements can have such a wide appeal, which was the intent of the video. Instead of feeling manipulated, maybe they would be intrigued to find out why they have been working so hard, and falling farther and farther behind due to capitalist's ploy of 'socializing the costs, and privatizing the rewards' of every common public asset.
Note that Republicans want to take every one of the social programs that you've listed and sell it to the capitalists. See Bill Maher from Friday: 'Our national parks are in debt, so the Republicans want to sell naming rights.' Our roads are slowly becoming paid with tolls (to lower taxes), and our public schools are supposed to survive on 'Lotto' funding. Our Governor wants to halt all state spending on libraries.
So, no social program should be taken for granted that it can survive without attention from the voters.
jake335544
(53 posts)"Capitalism where the workers are prioritized"
And such a thing can only be temporary. As workers right and capitalism are antithetical. We are seeing Scandinavia slowly chip away at their welfare state and labor protections. And the destruction of our welfare state and labor protections happened in the U.S. fairly easily with the enthusiastic help of both major, capitalist parties...
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)an ebb and flow - a power struggle - between workers and owners - it's as old as workers themselves. While it's true there's a push back in the last few years against workers rights - worldwide - the large trend it toward worker protection.
Of course I personally believe that we're headed toward a guaranteed minimum income (because the alternative is dystopia) and that would be the biggest score for workers ever!
jake335544
(53 posts)Social Programs from government money doesn't have anything to do with workers democratically controlling the workplace, it has nothing to do with socialism.
Sanders is a social democrat, a capitalist, not a democratic socialist. Seems like nitpicking, but it's just being accurate. Social Democracy is sometimes seen as socialist if it is oriented toward transitioning to socialism (like the Meidner plan), but I don't see that in Sanders.
Passionate Left-Social-Democrats of the 20th century used to be everywhere, but now they aren't even really found at the national level of the Democratic Party unless an independent of 30 years join us. At the national level we are mostly represented by conservatives, neoliberals/right-social-democrats
Before the, "Sanders Revolution" to elect Sanders, I've never heard Democratic socialism to mean a welfare state... that's social democracy. Even the Democratic Socialists of America always for decades said that social democracy wasn't what they were aiming for (until the Sanders campaign came along).
Democratic socialism is where the workers completely own the means of production and democratically organize. Social democracy is a broad term meaning those who favor a strong welfare state in a mixed economy. Maybe Bernie could be a social democrat who is also a democratic socialist, in that he would use SD to transition into DS, but he said explicitly at that Georgetown University forum that he does not advocate workers taking complete control of business.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)zebonaut
(3,688 posts)jmowreader
(50,529 posts)Democratic socialism is an economic system consisting of a politically democratic government and collective ownership of the means of production - aka the companies the East Germans called "people's owned enterprises." Any attempt to institute an actual democratic socialist state will necessarily lead to authoritarian socialism for one simple reason: the people who worked hard and risked their capital to build the means of production aren't going to just hand it over because someone who never had a job until he was forty years old thinks everything would be wonderful if they did. The only way in the world to make a socialist economy work is to close the borders, so your doctors and engineers don't emigrate in the middle of the night, and to become a full-fledged dictatorship, to ensure they stay closed.
The world has no record of a state transitioning from a pure free-market economy to a true democratic socialist state, but we have several of states transitioning from authoritarian socialist states to other forms of economy - the members of the Warsaw Pact after its dissolution. Those guys went straight from authoritarian socialism to free-market and never even considered becoming democratic socialist states - even though in many cases it would have been logical to do so. They KNEW democratic socialism wouldn't work. Why should we risk it?
Equinox Moon
(6,344 posts)I just watched a fantastic video and will not pollute my awareness with a hate comment in this thread.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)democratic socialism has LITERALLY NOTHING to do with social ownership.
You have NO IDEA what you're talking about, at all.
This is what Bernie is espousing:
The Nordic model (also called Nordic capitalism[1] or Nordic social democracy)[2][3] refers to the economic and social policies common to the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Norway, Iceland and Sweden). This includes a combination of free market capitalism with a comprehensive welfare state and collective bargaining at the national level.[4][5]
Although there are significant differences among the Nordic countries, they all share some common traits. These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government;[6] and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade.[7]
Each of the Nordic countries has its own economic and social models, sometimes with large differences from its neighbours.[8] According to sociologist Lane Kenworthy, in the context of the Nordic model, "social democracy" refers to a set of policies for promoting economic security and opportunity within the framework of capitalism rather than a system to replace capitalism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
stuffmatters
(2,574 posts)All is needed is a companion ad of what Democratic Socialism is NOT. A one- two punch against American ignorance once & for all.