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applegrove

(118,613 posts)
Sat Aug 11, 2012, 10:06 PM Aug 2012

Paul Ryan re: "Our rights come from God and nature, not the government"

Doesn't the link contradict the whole American creation myth? He contradicts himself in the first few seconds. Says American is an idea (which come from men....leaders of the independance movement...the future government I would think follows) and then he says "our rights come from God and nature, not government"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=pMQw6fsF_ts

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Paul Ryan re: "Our rights come from God and nature, not the government" (Original Post) applegrove Aug 2012 OP
So that piece of paper called the constitution means nothing? liberal N proud Aug 2012 #1
I'd be curious how he views the Second Amendment. Buzz Clik Aug 2012 #28
Cue the initiation of the Salem Witch Hunt Trials... MichiganVote Aug 2012 #2
Hey Paulie, you can believe that all you like. One question, though... JHB Aug 2012 #3
+1,000. Thanks for that. freshwest Aug 2012 #8
So God gave you the right to trash nature? bucolic_frolic Aug 2012 #4
Have Heard The God Grants Rights Argument Before - What If God Does Not Exist? cantbeserious Aug 2012 #5
When Republican's speak of such things, what they REALLY mean, is Human Rights... Volaris Aug 2012 #20
My Thoughts Apply To Republicans As They Exist Today - They Would Be Dishonest Then cantbeserious Aug 2012 #22
Ryan twisted what the Declaration of Independence actually says Tx4obama Aug 2012 #6
Thanks. I don't know my american history well enough. applegrove Aug 2012 #9
This... Volaris Aug 2012 #21
Here's a question to Ryan Smilo Aug 2012 #7
Paul Ryan civics fail. At least some of our rights come from government. limpyhobbler Aug 2012 #10
Forget civics, Ryan knows exactly what he's saying meanit Aug 2012 #27
The kicker in Ryan's speech was where he said 'HE WOULD GIVE a RIGHT' (LOL) Tx4obama Aug 2012 #11
Our rights come from God... Norbert Aug 2012 #19
Hmmm FlaGranny Aug 2012 #12
I have rights because I exist. RC Aug 2012 #13
Informed people know our Constitution does not give or grant rights. Our rights are natural, jody Aug 2012 #14
Wow, God Distributes his Opinion..... Grassy Knoll Aug 2012 #15
Ah yes...Paul Ryan, Class of 1988, voted Biggest Brown Noser! SoapBox Aug 2012 #16
Translation: God gave us nature to exploit and Government is in my way! bucolic_frolic Aug 2012 #17
And if Romney-Ryan and the GOP hate the government so much bucolic_frolic Aug 2012 #18
That's how they've used government so far in their careers. Overseas Aug 2012 #24
Scary appeal to those with Faith-Based rather than fact based politics. Overseas Aug 2012 #23
So Proud Liberal Dem Aug 2012 #25
I agree with Ryan on this, although he and I view the principles involved differently Jack Rabbit Aug 2012 #26
Especially if you're a rich White male catbyte Aug 2012 #29
What he means by natural rights is: Might makes Right. tclambert Aug 2012 #30
translation: "I don't want to pay taxes" n/t Enrique Aug 2012 #31

liberal N proud

(60,334 posts)
1. So that piece of paper called the constitution means nothing?
Sat Aug 11, 2012, 10:10 PM
Aug 2012

That and the Bill of Rights that if elected, these two assholes would swear to uphold wouldn't be?

These monkeys are dangerous!

JHB

(37,158 posts)
3. Hey Paulie, you can believe that all you like. One question, though...
Sat Aug 11, 2012, 10:14 PM
Aug 2012

Last edited Sun Aug 12, 2012, 08:49 AM - Edit history (1)

Who do you think enforces those laws, interprets them, and passes judgment on violators?

Us mere mortals, that's who, and the mechanism we use to do so is da government.

So you can think whatever gives you the jollies, but as a practical matter, it's kind of moot.

bucolic_frolic

(43,127 posts)
4. So God gave you the right to trash nature?
Sat Aug 11, 2012, 10:18 PM
Aug 2012

Remember, they want to drill for oil in national parks

and sell federal lands to their wealthy buddies to lease for oil drilling

Volaris

(10,270 posts)
20. When Republican's speak of such things, what they REALLY mean, is Human Rights...
Sun Aug 12, 2012, 09:25 AM
Aug 2012

An honest Republican would state that a person in North Korea has just much claim to free and fair elections (as a God-Given or Human Right) as we do here, and the Constitution is the thing that CODIFIES those Rights into enforceable Laws. A SMART Honest Republican will then tell you that a captured member of a terrorist network possesses an innate Right NOT to be tortured, because OUR Government extends those Rights to ANYONE under our Governmental or Legal jurisdiction or authority. Too bad Jr. and Crew never figured this out...

A dumb and/or dishonest Republican (the aforementioned Jr. and Crew) believes these Rights DO INDEED come form God, but that they only apply to those Humans lucky enough to have been BORN HERE, and everyone else's God-Given or Human Rights be damned.

All of the Smart and Honest Republicans in the country have either been voted from office, or changed sides by now. The cognitive dissonance that's going to come from the other side in the next 3 months is going to be hella fun to use as a weapon against them.

Tx4obama

(36,974 posts)
6. Ryan twisted what the Declaration of Independence actually says
Sat Aug 11, 2012, 10:25 PM
Aug 2012


-snip-

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with one another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitles them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.


http://www.lonang.com/conlaw/7/c71b.htm

Smilo

(1,944 posts)
7. Here's a question to Ryan
Sat Aug 11, 2012, 10:25 PM
Aug 2012

if you believe what you said - why are you sucking at the government's teat and taking all you can, while making laws requiring others to do what you say?

limpyhobbler

(8,244 posts)
10. Paul Ryan civics fail. At least some of our rights come from government.
Sat Aug 11, 2012, 10:37 PM
Aug 2012

I thought there were different kinds of rights...

1. Natural rights- come from god or nature
2. Civil rights- comes from government
3. Legal rights- again government

meanit

(455 posts)
27. Forget civics, Ryan knows exactly what he's saying
Sun Aug 12, 2012, 02:48 PM
Aug 2012

He's saying that numbers 2 & 3 don't count because the government shouldn't be in the "rights" business.
This man is a dangerous Fascist.

Tx4obama

(36,974 posts)
11. The kicker in Ryan's speech was where he said 'HE WOULD GIVE a RIGHT' (LOL)
Sat Aug 11, 2012, 10:47 PM
Aug 2012

See the bolded sentence below.
When I heard him say that I thought: HUH? You just said that it was God that gave us our rights! LOL

Excerpt from Ryan's speech:


-snip-

The commitment Mitt Romney and I make to you is this:

We won't duck the tough issues...we will lead!

We won't blame others...we will take responsibility!

We won't replace our founding principles...we will reapply them!

We will honor you, our fellow citizens, by giving you the right and opportunity to make the choice:

What kind of country do we want to have?

What kind of people do we want to be? We can turn this thing around. Real solutions can be delivered. But, it will take leadership. And the courage to tell you the truth.


Mitt Romney is this kind of leader. I'm excited for what lies ahead and I'm thrilled to be a part of America's Comeback Team. And together, we will unite America and get this done.

Thank you.


Norbert

(6,039 posts)
19. Our rights come from God...
Sun Aug 12, 2012, 08:26 AM
Aug 2012

Paul Ryan will give us rights.

That means Paul Ryan is G...


Beam us up Scotty. We must find a place with intelligent life.

FlaGranny

(8,361 posts)
12. Hmmm
Sat Aug 11, 2012, 10:48 PM
Aug 2012

What kind of rights are provided by nature? The right to try to avoid being eaten by wild beasts? What rights are provided by God? - the right to worship at his feet? God never said much about rights, but a lot about rules and punishment.

What an arrogant, idiotic pair R&R make.

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
13. I have rights because I exist.
Sat Aug 11, 2012, 10:55 PM
Aug 2012

Government did not grant me any rights. Government can only deny rights.
Whose god? There are many thousands of gods, some good, some bad and everywhere in between. How can one persons god give me rights when another persons god takes those same rights away? And if I believe in neither god? Whose god given rights do I have?

No, I have certain unalienable rights merely because I exist. The right to Life. The freedom to come and go as I please. The right of personal security. The right for food and water. The right for shelter. Medical attention, when I need it. I have the right to think whatever I wish. We all have these rights and many more just because we are alive.

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/
How does this fit into the Republican agenda?

 

jody

(26,624 posts)
14. Informed people know our Constitution does not give or grant rights. Our rights are natural,
Sat Aug 11, 2012, 11:37 PM
Aug 2012

inherent, unalienable/inalienable attributes of sovereign individuals. They preexist the Constitution and do not depend upon it for legitimacy.

Our Constitution requires government to protect all such rights whether enumerated or unenumerated for a majority or a minority.

Most important, it’s impossible to give away an unalienable/inalienable right.

Grassy Knoll

(10,118 posts)
15. Wow, God Distributes his Opinion.....
Sun Aug 12, 2012, 12:45 AM
Aug 2012

Unequally, Well that has to make the 10 O'Clock News.
Paul Ryan is a blender without the cord.

bucolic_frolic

(43,127 posts)
18. And if Romney-Ryan and the GOP hate the government so much
Sun Aug 12, 2012, 07:14 AM
Aug 2012

why do they want to be elected to office?

To use the government to exploit others for their own benefit.

Overseas

(12,121 posts)
24. That's how they've used government so far in their careers.
Sun Aug 12, 2012, 01:28 PM
Aug 2012

Even the pompous precious Paul...

Thanks to Octafish for "Paul Ryan is a Crook" http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021111622

Overseas

(12,121 posts)
23. Scary appeal to those with Faith-Based rather than fact based politics.
Sun Aug 12, 2012, 12:08 PM
Aug 2012

I think that may be the tactic the RR team will use. Appeal to those who will have faith that as a self-appointed devoted Christian, he wouldn't hurt our country or bankrupt the middle class and poor even more.

I hope that enough reminders of Ryan's love of atheist Ayn Rand and Romney's Mormonism will keep those born again people from voting for them.

Jack Rabbit

(45,984 posts)
26. I agree with Ryan on this, although he and I view the principles involved differently
Sun Aug 12, 2012, 02:28 PM
Aug 2012

The Enlightenment view of the individual's relation to government is based in a concept called natural rights. For details, I recommend reading Rousseau's three treatises (On the Arts and Sciences, The Origins of Inequality and The Social Contract). This idea also comes from Locke, who is even more influential on American thought on this matter. The key phrase of the Declaration of Independence is practically plagiarized from Locke:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Note that Jefferson, the author of the Declaration, also says that rights come from a "Creator," elsewhere referred to as "The Laws of Nature and Nature's God." In any case, natural rights come from a higher authority than the government. The government, in Jefferson's view, is merely an instrument "instituted among men" for he purpose of "securing" those rights. Nowhere does Jefferson state that rights originate with the government. A more recent American Constitutional scholar, Mr. Alberto Gonzales, held to the idea that such rights do originate with the government. A brief outline of Mr. Gonzales' ideas may be found here, in a discussion of the Senate judiciary committee concerning the right of Habeas Corpus. Please note that Mr. Gonzales and I do not see eye-to-eye on this matter. In fact, I think that Mr. Gonzales' ideas on this matter are more consistent with another post-enlightenment idea, fascism.

Mr. Ryan and I certainly agree on the concept of natural rights as being something that governments do not create but are merely instruments to protect. I suspect that Mr. Ryan agrees with Senator Specter, as I do, that Mr. Gonzales' ideas on this matter "violate common sense."

Where Mr. Ryan and I don't agree is on the matter of owning private property as a natural right. In a nutshell, he believes not only is it a natural right but it the foundation of all other rights. I do not. First of all, I believe that when we start talking about private property, we are discussing a human state well beyond a state of nature. Insofar as owning property is a right of any kind, it would have to be derived from a natural right found in human societies unburdened by modern, urban culture, that is to say in hunter/gatherer societies. We don't find private property in those societies. Personal property, like the sirt on one's back, yes, we find that, but not private property, which is something that is posited by industrialization. While I don't see owning private property in and of itself as a violation of any natural right, there are ways the owner of private property may use his wealth that do violate the natural rights of man. For example, if I deposit money in a savings account, then my expectations are that the money will compound interest and grow; the bank may use that money, but that which I have deposited is mine, the interest that the money has earned is mine and after the bank is through using it, that which is mine is still there. There is no natural right that allows the bank to use my money in a reckless and irresponsible way and lose it and not replace it. (Am I getting through to you, Mr. Dimon?)

I also disagree with Mr. Ryan's concept of natural rights as expressed in his budget proposals. This will create a social inequality of critical levels such that civil unrest becomes a natural response to very unnatural deprivation. That will necessitate either the alteration or abolition of a government that has become destructive to natural rights, or the establishment of a police state that in and of itself must be abolished.

catbyte

(34,371 posts)
29. Especially if you're a rich White male
Sun Aug 12, 2012, 03:03 PM
Aug 2012

Fucking racist, classist way of thinking. I suppose they're going to repeal the Civil Rights Act because it came from government?

What a dangerous, dangerous ticket.

tclambert

(11,085 posts)
30. What he means by natural rights is: Might makes Right.
Sun Aug 12, 2012, 04:56 PM
Aug 2012

He wants to go back to the morality of the Robber Barons. If you had the might, you could do anything you wanted. In today's world, if you're rich enough, you can do what you want, rob everybody else, and no law can touch you.

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