Why Astrology Isn't Real Science

[Quixote1818]

It still stuns me how many liberal, science minded people buy into this BS.

[Beakybird]

1. I'm an Aries with Capricorn rising. This perhaps explains my disdain for astrology.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. She is right on the money!

I know many MANY people who absolutely believe in this stuff. They just "know."

I find it entertaining!



Thanks for posting.

[Lionel Mandrake]

3. Astrology is not science, but it has a historical relationship to science.

The development of physics and astronomy from Copernicus to Newton involved astronomers like Tycho Brahe and Kepler, who were expected to, and did, cast horoscopes. Tycho was supported by the king of Denmark only so that he could cast horoscopes of the royal children. Without that support, Tycho could not have made the observations of Mars that enabled Kepler to formulate his laws of elliptical planetary motion. Those laws were shown by Newton to be consequences of his universal law of gravitation, which he published in 1687.

[eShirl]

8. astrology's right up there with alchemy

[Major Nikon]

14. It's several notches down from even alchemy

Alchemy is a protoscience meaning it predated the scientific method and fell out of favor after. Astrology is and always has been straight up pseudoscience.

[panfluteman]

16. Astrology is a science, but it is a different kind of science than reductionistic modern science.

It's more holistic and metaphysical in its orientation. And using astrology, I have been able to find out very specific things and information that has been very useful in helping my clients - and many times, they have asked me, "How the heck did you know that?" And my answer is that I read the stars - call it stellar literacy, if you will. And the degree of precision you can get in the information you obtain depends on how well your stellar literacy skills are developed and honed - it's just like how well you can read a book depends on how literate you are. I spend several hours on peparation and basic planetary calculations before giving a consultation, and believe me, it's hard and intricate work, but absolutely necessary if you want to do a good job as an astrologer.

You talk about astronomy evolving our of astrology, but in truth, before the Age of Enlightenment, both sciences were one. Johannes Kepler was the last astronomer who was also an astrologer - and now, the leading astrology school in the United States, Kepler University, in Seatlle Washington, which is where I learned how to play the panflute, is named after him. Sir Isaac Newton was also a student and practitioner of astrology, and of alchemy as well. When his friend Mr. Haley, the discoverer of Haley's Comet, derided him for his belief in astrology, Newton basically told him to shut up and not pontificate about something he knew nothing about, saying to him, "You haven't studied astrology; I have."

[Major Nikon]

23. Astrology is a pseudoscience

The quote by Issac Newton is frequently used by fans of that pseudoscience. The difference here is you actually misquote him by including the word “astrology” which was never part of the quote in question. Biographers of Newton have pointed out that in the actual quote in question, Newton was referring to theology, not astrology.

Although there is some evidence Newton had a passing interest in astrology as a youth, there is are no examples of him writing about it as an adult. Describing him as an astrologist is very far afield from reality, just like astrology.

[Lionel Mandrake]

28. As an astrologer, you have a vested interest in this nonsense.

You are also misinformed in various ways.

1. Your Alma Mater is Kepler College, not Kepler University. By the way, that school has never enjoyed any respect among real institutions of higher learning.

2. Newton practiced alchemy, but not astrology. He had "studied" astrology only in the sense that he knew how astrologers did their ridiculous calculations.

The period from Kepler to Newton saw the marginalization of astrology, after which it was no longer supported by universities or royal courts. It has been disreputable ever since, I'm glad to say.

[PJMcK]

4. Here's another huge problem with Americans

Consider that nearly every daily newspaper in the U.S. has a horoscope feature but nearly every newspaper does not have a regular science column.

[panfluteman]

17. And That Daily Horoscope Column Is Not Worth the Paper It is Printed On.

It's good for toilet paper, and nothing more - and that said by a professional astrologer. It's analogous to saying that you can give an entire medical diagnosis just by knowing someone's blood type. Pop astrology is not real astrology. A professional astrologer is not comfortable working with anything less than the natal astrology chart, which requires your date (including year), place, and time of birth - and the more precisely you know it, the better, because the Ascendant, which is one of the most important factors in the natal astrology chart, moves, on the average, one degree every four minutes, going through an entire sign in a couple of hours or so.

[scarytomcat]

25. when are you going to update

the sky is not the same it has moved, so the charts don't match the sky. Makes it all just silly but fun if you don't take it seriously.

[panfluteman]

5. Yeah, yeah, yeah - The Same Tired Arguments Against Astrology

The one truth that remains is that those who condemn astrology or say they don't believe in it haven't really studied it. Just some basic study under a competent professional astrologer with an open mind would convince them that there is something to this ancient science. I'm not against modern science, and don't accept that a belief in astrology exclusively negates an acceptance of modern science. Astrology and modern science are good for different things; astrology is more holistic and metaphysical, whereas modern science is more reductionistic and physical.

The data that scientific skeptics used to "disprove" astrology and the findings of Michel Gaugelin was falsified by the scientific skeptics. The one who received and tabulated the data resigned in protest, claiming that astrology had won fair and square.

What the presenter presents as what she has been told was her sign not actually being her sign is about equinoctial precession and the difference between the sidereal zodiac, which is used in Hindu Vedic Astrology, and the tropical zodiac, which is used in Western astrology, as well as ancient Greek or Hellenistic Astrology. Many astrologers use both systems, finding that each excels at different things. Simply put, the sidereal zodiac is a lunar / stellar frame of reference, whereas the tropical zodiac is a solar frame of reference. This is simply a misleading argument used to confuse people and smear astrology.

I had an astrology teacher once who said that astrology is disbelieved in by fundamentalists, both religious and scientific - and yes, there are scientific fundamentalists just as there are religious ones. The scientific fundamentalism starts when science becomes a belief system. Another name for scientific fundamentalism is scientism.

[eShirl]

9. honestly, it sounds more like a religion than a science

it should be whatever it is, not keep trying to be science

[Major Nikon]

12. Yeah, yeah the same tired arguments trying to validate another pseudoscience

In the cases where astrology has tried to present falsifiable claims, they utterly fail to produce results any better than chance.

Michel Gaugelin’s “study” was flawed and not repeatable after 1950, which was around the time doctors were nearly universally reporting birth dates instead of parents.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_effect

[Archae]

15. Every time astrology is called on to provide actual (gasp) EVIDENCE...

It fails.

Much as I liked Nancy Reagan, her devotion to astrology may have affected the whole country, with her husband making decisions based on bullshit.

Astrologers are either really vague, (newspaper horoscopes are notorious for this,) or really obvious, or simply dead wrong.

[Major Nikon]

18. The OP details several of those failures

There's quite a few more. Meanwhile those who still are trying to convince us a pseudoscience is anything but are still clinging to a 70 yr old debunked study produced by a biased pseudoscientist that despite obvious selection bias intentional flaws produced only barely statistically relevant data and has since been unable to duplicate despite numerous attempts. So checkmate skeptics, we "proved" it works (to ourselves at least).

Astrology is all fun and games until grown ass people start actually believing that bullshit is real and use it to influence public policy on a worldwide scale. Then it crosses over into some scary shit that should be called out for the bullshit it is at every opportunity.

[courtjester]

6. Twins

The noted astronomer Carl Sagan used the argument that a set of twins born on same day with the same astrological sign should have the same predictions and expectations from their horoscope. One twin dies in a car wreck - the other lives to a ripe old age.
Seems like that pretty much blows it out of the ball park. But lets keep going ! The constellation of your sign has a star go super nova. Astrology does not account for that event. A star in your constellation turns into a black hole - I don't think your horoscope
is going to mention that either.

[dalton99a]

7. Donald Trump Horoscope: What His Astrology Chart Reveals

https://astrostyle.com/donald-trump-horoscope-astrology/
Donald Trump Horoscope: What His Astrology Chart Reveals

Donald Trump is a Gemini—the clever, fast-talking sign governed by Mercury the messenger. Love him or loathe him, you have to give it to the Donald: The man has coined some snappy soundbites. With his Uranus, ruler of technology, social media and group activity, in his tenth house of public image, it’s no surprise he’s caused such uproars on Twitter and at his own rallies. His Sun is also in the tenth house of status and leadership, in close proximity to Uranus. And while we’re personally hoping he’ll hear #You’reFired this November 8, these placements help him spit out phrases that spread like wildfire through the zeitgeist. Make America Great Again! Crooked Hillary…the list goes on. Unfortunately, his basket of slogans also includes deplorable insults against women, people of color, Muslims, the disabled…and the list goes on. With the Sun in Trump’s tenth house of masculinity, he’s had a lifetime of so-called “locker room talk” and perpetuating a misogyny-riddled boy’s club, which became excruciatingly evident with the leak of his Access Hollywood hot mic “p***y grab” and the entitled behavior he’s passed down to his sons.

Geminis have a reputation for being double-talkers who twist people’s words and contradict themselves. And while this isn’t the case for ALL people born under this sign (not by a long shot), Trump has proven the stereotype true on several occasions. During the September 26 presidential debate he flatly denied an earlier conversation with ABC News anchor David Muir in which he said, “I just don’t believe she (Clinton) has a presidential look.” Despite his statements being documented, Trump insisted that what he actually said was that Clinton “doesn’t have the stamina” to be President. Then there’s his ever-shifting position on whether or not he supported the Iraq war, his praise for Putin’s “strength”…and those elusive tax returns.

Donald Trump’s Leo rising (or ascendant) colors his appearance and demeanor. Leo rising people are often first spotted by their trademark “manes” of hair. They can be blustery, outspoken and ready to roar. With his notoriously swirled and silky hair and his orange-tinted complexion, Trump even resembles the Cowardly Lion from The Wizard of Oz. And kind of like the Lion went to Oz to find courage, Trump also received a surrogate medal of courage (in his case, a veteran gave him his Purple Heart)—although in Trump’s case, there was no act of bravery performed to earn it.

Leo is also the Hollywood sign, owing to Trump’s numerous appearances on shows from The Fresh Prince Of Bel-Air to Spin City. And of course, there was his own successful franchise with The Apprentice and Celebrity Apprentice. He’s certainly not shy when the cameras are rolling—or, ahem, when they aren’t.

The downside of the Leo rising is that it can give more bluster and ego than anything else. However, the Leo rising person can exude a warm, protective energy, which Trump is able to project to his unquestioning followers…until he ruins it all by losing his temper.

...

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Astounding accuracy! No wonder they call it an exact science

[panfluteman]

19. That so-called astrologer has a veneer of astrological knowledge, but most of it is BS

How do I know? I have studied Donald Trump's natal astrology chart in considerable depth. For example, the so-called "astrologer" here mentions Trump's Leo Ascendant, but fails to mention that it's at 29 degrees of Leo - which is highly significant, because that is exactly conjunct the fixed star Regulus, which is the Royal Star. Your Ascendant is your basic approach to life and getting your needs met, and Donnie, with his Ascendant conjunct Regulus, the Royal Star, has always thought of himself as a king - and that's exactly what he's trying to do now - set himself up as a king - or as a dictator. Just recently, the tropical zodiac placement of the fixed star Regulus, which is Trump's rising star, ingressed into the tropical sign of Virgo, the sign of the Virgin, due to the precession of the vernal equinox point, which is the starting point of the tropical zodiac, which is one degree every 72 years. This coincided very closely with the emergence of the "me too" movement, in which Trump, with Regulus on his Ascendant, was important in bringing about with the whole pussy grabbing Access Hollywood tape. Trump also has Mars, the planet of libido, among other things, very tightly conjunct his Ascendant; Mars is also the planet of conflict, assertion, and aggression, and this also explains Trump's aggressive, combative, confrontational approach to life and getting his needs met.

Sure, Trump's Sun is in Gemini, but what this guy fails to report is that his Sun in Gemini is very tightly opposing his Moon in Sagittarius, the sign of philosophy, ethics and morals. Gemini, on the other hand, is the sign of the glib sophist. And his Sun is almost exactly conjunct his North Lunar Node, within the same degree, while his Moon is exactly conjunct his South Lunar Node. The axis of the lunar nodes is one's axis of karma, and in his life, and family background there has been a very tense relationship between glib sophistry and whatever it takes (Gemini) and moral principles (Sagittarius), with his mother probably being the one who tried to drum a sense of right and wrong into him - the Moon usually symbolizes the mother in a natal chart - versus his father, who was the Gemini type (Sun symbolizes the father) - the model of the opportunistic businessman - and he decided to take after his father. When he was younger, Trump was sent off to a military academy, presumably to whip him into shape, and drum some sense of moral values into him, a basic sense of right and wrong. But this inner tension or dichotomy, this almost schizoid split or opposition persists in the core of Trump's psyche, and because it is so precisely aligning with his axis of karma, some major karmic reckoning seems to be inevitable. Frankly, this whole Sun / Moon, North Node / South Node opposition is the planetary configuration in his chart that worries me the most. And it seems like all his lies and sophistry will finally catch up with him.

These are just a few things that could be said about Trump from his natal chart. What I have pointed out here are a few of the chart's most distinctive and striking features - which have totally escaped this so-called "astrologer's" notice. But any real astrologer would make these very striking and distinctive features the core of his presentation, instead of the more general stuff like Sun in Gemini, Ascendant in Leo, etc... You go from the generalities to the specifics.

[panfluteman]

22. Oh Yeah - and Another Thing About Trump's Uranus

In the original post that I commented on above, the so-called astrologer dwelt quite a bit on Uranus and Trump's fascination with Twitter as his hi tech fad or shtick. It's true that Uranus is associated with high tech in astrology, but on a deeper level, it shows much more. The guy in the original posting failed to mention the highly significant and distinctive fact that Donald Trump's Uranus is tightly conjunct his Sun - and so, figures into that Sun / Moon opposition conjuncting his axis of the Lunar Nodes, his axis of karma. The entry of Uranus into this configuration exerts a general destabilizing effect, and when Uranus is aspecting the Sun, as it is with Donald Trump's Sun / Uranus conjunction, it is generally associated with two things - a tendency towards mood instability, with manic episodes prominent, as well as a chaotic, disordered approach to life and expression of one's will, with tendencies towards attention deficit issues and a lack of discipline. The Sun is also the ruler of Trump's Leo Ascendant, and being destabilized by Uranus, it leaves Donald Trump also open to flights of fancy and grandiosity as well. It also shows that Donald Trump has a unique, even eccentric, approach to life, and plays by his own rules. Uranus figuring prominently in the natal chart is also associated with those who had a very loose and permissive upbringing, where anything goes - and so, he could skate by through life, playing by his own rules, relying on his Gemini (Sun and Uranus in Gemini) sophistry and slick talking. The destabiilizing influence of Uranus on his Sun, which is one's sense of self, also destabilizes Trump's sense of self, making it too dependent on chance or externals. And it destabilizes the whole Sun / Moon opposition conjunct Lunar Nodes configuration I spoke of earlier, which I feel is the most worrying thing about his chart.

One of the most fascinating things about astrology is that every element, every symbol in the astrology chart has both external or macrocosmic manifestations as well as internal or microcosmic manifestations. And so it is with Trump's Uranus, for example: externally, his Twitter addiction as his high tech thing, and internally, his intsability of mood and sense of self, as well as his disordered approach to life. And this is all standard textbook modern astrological interpretation, folks.

[Woodwizard]

10. That it has to be even explained is crazy

In my years I have found that most I know that believe in this also tend to believe in a lot of other odd things and are not very invested in a science thinking background, more of a magical thinking way of life. Getting into a logic based conversation with this type usually gets me the look of pity that I just don't understand, so be it.

[Major Nikon]

13. Pseudoscience will always have adherents

For whatever reason, a certain percentage of the population will always be attracted to metaphysical babble by those who will mistake it for intellectualism.

[bobnicewander]

11. Not calling my practice a science

My reply in: Religion & Spirituality » Astrology, Spirituality & Alternative Healing (Group) on Oct 25:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/122018537#post2 in "Hard transits to 2017 inauguration"

"bobnicewander (97 posts)

2. From previous posts

For those who have little or no knowledge of astrology (and for many who do) - there is no way to know what any aspect may coordinate with. Think about the horoscopes of multiple birth siblings - twins, triplets, etc.. They have virtually the same charts (as we say in astrology) but not the same experiences at the same time - getting married, having babies, suffering major injuries or illnesses and on and on. The marriage of one is a happy experience shared by all in some manner but no astrologer, without inside information, could say which one it would be or even name the event looking at the charts perhaps 3 years before. All that could really be seen in them would likely be a positive or easy or happy time in them.

That is why there have been no astrologers, no matter how famous, that can be shown to have a string of exact predictions despite the great number of practitioners through thousands of years. If anybody thinks differently I have a chart covering almost 79 years and would like them to prove their case by telling me what exactly occurred when and where I experienced even 1 aspect in my life.

I can determine when tRump may experience difficult times but as to what event it may coordinate with if any is known about (because we experience some things on a psychological level which we may not share with anyone and/or on a cellular level like when a tumor is growing that we ourselves do not know about) the best that might be done is to get in the ballpark or get lucky with our guess based on some knowledge [like the date and time of a court appearance] and get it right.

I chose the January 2020 time for tRump's leaving office because of the transits to his natal chart then coupled with his current and what I presume will be an ongoing situation."

and posted in that group on January 13th in "My tRump Astrology and Info Posts" https://www.democraticunderground.com/122018291

"An event that precipitates September 18th and 19th station occurs on about July 25th. this year."

My November 15, 2016, post elsewhere about tRump's troubles this coming January:

By: Bob on November 15th, 2016, at 10:57 pm

'Charts showing Donald’s and Donald Jr.’s charts engaged by the total solar eclipse in August 2017 and the Saturn and Pluto conjunction in January of 2020. It looks like a family affair.

http://imgur.com/a/UyQXj

[Nitram]

20. Umm, astrology isn't "real" science because it isn't real science. 'Nuff said.

It's a fun party game.

[Archae]

21. People like bullshit that "explains" everything.

Conspiracy theories
Anti-vaxx bullshit
Astrology
Fundamentalist religion
Flying saucers
Big foot
Loch Ness monster
Prophecy

And so much else, the adherents say "Prove us wrong!"
We can't. Logic doesn't work that way.
Even when evidence that does prove bullshit IS bullshit, the bullshit adherents yell "fake news" or such.

Logically, the adherents should be providing the actual evidence.
But they never do.

[Major Nikon]

24. At least you didn't include homeopathy

[dlk]

26. Many people look for certainty in an uncertain world

[Thunderbeast]

27. Carl Sagan said it so well...