What About Abortion? Should this one issue determine how Christians vote?

[Quixote1818]

The guy who is behind these videos was the creator of Veggie Tales. Seems to be more of a liberal / independent Christian:

[ProudMNDemocrat]

1. How we treat the living is what Jesus preached.

Matthew 25 to comes to mind.

[markpkessinger]

16. I agree, but the evangelical counterargument is that a fetus is a living being n/t

[hlthe2b]

2. I think the blatant hypocrisy surrounding this (while long term care of infants/children is ignored)

as well as support for the death penalty among the "Pro-Life" factions is a major factor driving most younger people away from religion. I know it has with me and many of my (not so young) age cohort.

[2Gingersnaps]

3. The Bible is full of murder and mayhem,

Killing babies and such. Religion and greed are the two most common causes of murder and mayhem through out history. Bitterly ironic that this is their litmus test to "worthiness." They seem quite all right with histories three favorite forms of birth/population control-starvation, disease, and war. Why would anyone suspect it was all sanctimonious posturing?

[sanatanadharma]

4. The murderous opposition to abortion is based upon 'Soul' belief

One must believe two things to be anti-choice; both are subjective models meant to explain the reality of 'that which is'.
Neither is a proven fact.
1- The fetus has a soul and 'souls' are why life matters (now we are getting into ethics)
2- Life (the 'soul') begins at conception

Conclusions drawn from these beliefs may vary, extending even to killing others for the presumed benefit of others.

My conclusion, if at conception there is one fertilized egg imbued with one soul, twins are un-explainable.
Either the one egg received two souls or like the egg the soul split, unless twins have two bodies but only one soul.

My statements are simplistic but simplistic thinking is the nature of anti-choice thinking.
Anti-choice advocates who base their 'rightness' in Religious theologies are the easiest to refute.

[Phoenix61]

7. I never thought about the twin argument

but I will definitely remember it.

[panfluteman]

9. That's Another Reason Why I Believe in Reincarnation

The fetus - or fetuses, if there happen to be twins - is a biological entity only for the first trimester of pregnancy. The soul becomes associated with, and attached to, the body or the fetus only in the second or third trimesters, depending on the case. Two souls enter if there are twins - or three if there are triplets, and so on. The soul or consciousness is by no means solidly or irrevocably attached to the body, as those who have had OOBEs - Out Of Body Experiences - know from personal experience - and I am one of them.

A belief in reincarnation, and that the body is not the seat of the soul, or consciousness, also greatly favors a progressive, pro-choice stance on abortion. If the fetus, or fetuses, is / are aborted, the soul(s) who were looking to take birth through that pregnancy simply look for another suitable pregnancy as a vehicle for taking birth.

[sanatanadharma]

11. I accept pre-existence as the only explaination for my being

Returning to those Christian anti-choice people whose ethics are rooted in belief in an all knowing, all powerful Deity.
Their theology suggests:

Birth brings original sin.
Life is devoted to escaping life with minimal sin.
The sinless go to Heaven.

If this be so, then the sinless souls of the aborted go directly to Heaven without ever having been subjected to the pains, anguish, torments of life with its temptations to sin, failure and Hell.
These souls skip over the limited joys of embodied life and go directly to the unlimited bliss of Heaven.

So where is the problem? The problem is in totally misunderstanding Karma; karma implies opportunity not punishment.

[Warpy]

13. Reread Genesis some time

Adam and Eve were just lumps of clay until the breath of life was blown into them. There's actually a scientific basis for that, the change from fetus to baby happens at birth, with that first breath.

We know about massive changes in the cardiovascular system, shunts between major vessels closing and an opening between the ventricles of the heart snapping shut. These cause the lungs and GI tract to take over from the placenta. Likely there are profound neurological changes taking place, also, since a fully sentient fetus would most likely be delivered in deep shock from the extreme compression of the skull during the birth process. We just have no way to measure that without potential harm to both mother and neonate.

My own position is that it' s not a baby until it breathes. First trimester abortions are safer than childbirth. The risks go up with each trimester and by 24 weeks, an abortion to save a mother's life is also a premature birth since the fetus is capable of breathing outside the uterus. I have seen late abortions done, but the circumstances are tragic and the pregnancies generally wanted and the patriarchs really need to butt out of this one.

In any case, I wonder just how long it's going to take the RCC to notice it lost the underpinnings of its antiabortionism when it abandoned the doctrine of Limbo.

[LT Barclay]

12. I recently came up with a way to explain it my wife because she gets a lot of pressure

From her friends.
The body in the womb is like a house being built before the family moves in. When they get that "breath of life", the soul moves in.
It is easy to show the bible doesn't show it murder. It is just another excuse for racism.

[Diamond_Dog]

5. This was excellent

But the people who really must listen to it probably won’t.

[jmbar2]

6. They are still stepping around the real issue: Men

I welcome a more reasoned approach on abortion by the religious right. But there's still a rather large elephant in the room.

If you want to stop abortion, you need to prevent unwanted pregnancies. And men are 100% responsible for unwanted pregnancies. No for real, they are. Perhaps you are thinking: IT TAKES TWO! And yes, it does take two for _intentional_ pregnancies.

But ALL unwanted pregnancies are caused by the irresponsible ejaculations of men.

https://designmom.com/twitter-thread-abortion/

If you haven't read this argument yet, take a few minutes to do so. It is powerful.

[panfluteman]

8. An Excellent Video! My Favorite Bumper Sticker on Abortion Is:

If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a holy sacrament!

Just think about it - Christian single issue voters on abortion are one of the major things that enabled the most UN-Christian, autocratic, sociopathic president of all - Donald Trump - get into the white house. It puts an "I'm a sucker" label on the foreheads of all conservative Christian voters that literally begs unscrupulous, unprincipled presidential candidates to take advantage of them. Counting on the votes of over a quarter of the voting populace by being "pro-liife" is probably a cornerstone in their strategy of cobbling together enough voting blocs to put them over the top.

[Warpy]

10. Um, no, fella. Waiting paeriods and squeal laws

and shutting down clinics don't do a damned thing except further abuse women in crisis.

What does work is education, access to jobs, and most importantly, access to health care that includes a wider variety of contraceptive methods.

The only 100% true thing said was that women don't want to have abortions. That's true, it's surgery, like gallbladder surgery, and it hurts. However, like gallbadder surgery, it is life saving.

Think about that, Buster. Life saving.

And only a man would so glibly suggest lax adoption rules. Asshole, giving up a live baby is not like giving away an extra puppy. It has lifelong consequences.

Abortion was never banned in your bible. However, even medical abortions are painful and women would like to avoid them. Make contraception cheaper and more widely available and keep abortion legal for when it fails. That is the only humane thing to do.

Oh, and keeping your pecker in your pants would help also. We shouldn't have to feign illness to avoid unwanted sex. A simple "no" should suffice.

(Please note that this is to Mr. Pious in the video, not the OP)

[markpkessinger]

18. Not only was abortion never banned in the Bible, there is at least one instance . . .

. . . where it is called for! Numbers 5:11-29:

The Lord spoke to Moses, saying: Speak to the Israelites and say to them: If any man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him, if a man has had intercourse with her but it is hidden from her husband, so that she is undetected though she has defiled herself, and there is no witness against her since she was not caught in the act; if a spirit of jealousy comes on him, and he is jealous of his wife who has defiled herself; or if a spirit of jealousy comes on him, and he is jealous of his wife, though she has not defiled herself; then the man shall bring his wife to the priest. And he shall bring the offering required for her, one-tenth of an ephah of barley flour. He shall pour no oil on it and put no frankincense on it, for it is a grain-offering of jealousy, a grain-offering of remembrance, bringing iniquity to remembrance.

Then the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord; the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water. The priest shall set the woman before the Lord, dishevel the woman’s hair, and place in her hands the grain-offering of remembrance, which is the grain-offering of jealousy. In his own hand the priest shall have the water of bitterness that brings the curse. Then the priest shall make her take an oath, saying, ‘If no man has lain with you, if you have not turned aside to uncleanness while under your husband’s authority, be immune to this water of bitterness that brings the curse. But if you have gone astray while under your husband’s authority, if you have defiled yourself and some man other than your husband has had intercourse with you’— let the priest make the woman take the oath of the curse and say to the woman—‘the Lord make you an execration and an oath among your people, when the Lord makes your uterus drop, your womb discharge; now may this water that brings the curse enter your bowels and make your womb discharge, your uterus drop!’ And the woman shall say, ‘Amen. Amen.’

Then the priest shall put these curses in writing, and wash them off into the water of bitterness. He shall make the woman drink the water of bitterness that brings the curse, and the water that brings the curse shall enter her and cause bitter pain. The priest shall take the grain-offering of jealousy out of the woman’s hand, and shall elevate the grain-offering before the Lord and bring it to the altar; and the priest shall take a handful of the grain-offering, as its memorial portion, and turn it into smoke on the altar, and afterwards shall make the woman drink the water. When he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings the curse shall enter into her and cause bitter pain, and her womb shall discharge, her uterus drop, and the woman shall become an execration among her people. But if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, then she shall be immune and be able to conceive children.

[Warpy]

19. Gotta love how those Bronze Age patriarchal assholes

blamed women for uterine prolapse, a condition that would have been life threatening. "Oh well, she must have been a slut, time to find another teenager to breed."

And they wonder why we hate patriarchy.

[markpkessinger]

20. Indeed! n/t

[llashram]

14. I don't care

what American KKKristians think or for what or whom they vote for. Bunch of RW hypocrites of the highest order.

[TheJillMill]

15. Holy Post is Amazing

I use the following one about race in my community college literature class for context when we read a Toni Cade Bambara story, "The Lesson." Thank God I live in New York where I can continue teaching about structural racism. There is now a part 2 I haven't reviewed yet. The first explains so much in 17 minutes, and I always emphasize the author is a Christian minister (important in heavily red upstate NY though we live in a liberal oasis).

[markpkessinger]

17. All of the anti-abortion arguments are disingenuous in any case . . .

. . . What this is really about is people who believe that what they deem are violations of "God's laws" must be punished, and if "God" won't do it, well, they will! Specifically, it's about punishing sexual behavior of which they disapprove -- namely, premarital sex, but especially and in particular on the part of women. In their minds, abortion enables a woman to escape the "consequences for her sin" of having sex either outside of marriage, or for some purpose other than procreation. That's really what it all comes down to.