Wed Jan 25, 2023, 11:06 AM

Uncle Joe (54,872 posts)

Germany & U.S. Agree on Tanks for Ukraine, German MP Accuses U.S. of Pushing Berlin into Proxy War

After weeks of pressure from international allies, Germany has announced it will send 14 German-made Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine and allow other NATO countries to send more German tanks to help Kyiv in its fight against Russia. The announcement came after the United States agreed to also send a shipment of M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine. For more, we speak with lawmaker Sevim Dağdelen, a member of the Left Party in the German parliament who says the majority of the German public wants more diplomatic efforts to end the conflict. “It concerns me a lot that many so-called progressives in the United States are supporting this line by the Biden administration to push Germany more and more into this proxy war,” says Dağdelen.

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12 replies	Author	Time	Post
Germany & U.S. Agree on Tanks for Ukraine, German MP Accuses U.S. of Pushing Berlin into Proxy War (Original post)	Uncle Joe	Jan 25	OP
Being pushed into a proxy war? Better to keep actual combat at arm's length than outside your	Martin68	Jan 25	#1
US voracious predator, Russia misunderstood victim	BeyondGeography	Jan 25	#2
sorry - the german MP is just wrong	lapfog_1	Jan 25	#3
I wonder what Putin has promised Germany?	Irish_Dem	Jan 25	#5
natural gas... as in two pipelines worth.	lapfog_1	Jan 25	#6
Yep it is all about Nord Stream.	Irish_Dem	Jan 25	#7
Confirms my belief the US had to lean on Germany to do the right thing here.	Irish_Dem	Jan 25	#4
It's not clear that her opinion is remotely in the majority.	xocetaceans	Jan 25	#8
I am not going by what anyone is saying. I am looking at Germany's behavior.	Irish_Dem	Jan 25	#9
Fair enough.	xocetaceans	Jan 25	#10
I look at behavior. Talk is cheap as my grandmother used to say.	Irish_Dem	Jan 25	#11
Clearly, there's a lack of appreciation for Germany's politics, of military matters, and	xocetaceans	Jan 26	#12

Response to Uncle Joe (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 11:10 AM

Martin68 (20,005 posts)

1. Being pushed into a proxy war? Better to keep actual combat at arm's length than outside your

door. It os a lot cheaper in both treasury and lives to deal with Russia now than to let them secure Ukraine and start looking around for more territory.

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Response to Uncle Joe (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 11:15 AM

BeyondGeography (38,514 posts)

2. US voracious predator, Russia misunderstood victim

Some folks never dust off the old hymnal, no matter the facts.

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Response to Uncle Joe (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 11:17 AM

lapfog_1 (27,376 posts)

3. sorry - the german MP is just wrong

Putin is the new Hitler of our time.

She is acting like Chamberlaine.

How did that work out for "peace"?

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Response to lapfog_1 (Reply #3)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 11:39 AM

Irish_Dem (33,978 posts)

5. I wonder what Putin has promised Germany?

Must be a lot of rubles on offer.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #5)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 12:37 PM

lapfog_1 (27,376 posts)

6. natural gas... as in two pipelines worth.

They need it to power their industry (and heat their homes). Germany has done a lot with both wind and solar, but as 1 poster keeps posting here... it's not enough. And after the fall of the Soviet Union, they decided to go with pipelines to plentiful Russian gas... and not LNG terminals in the Baltic. Back when "Russia" was going to be another democracy and part of Europe, this might have seemed like a good idea. But then this little KGB officer came along, desiring a return to Soviet era "greatness" and... oopsie.

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Response to lapfog_1 (Reply #6)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 01:21 PM

Irish_Dem (33,978 posts)

7. Yep it is all about Nord Stream.

Germany appears to be OK being business partners with a brutal, ruthless dictator who
rapes, tortures, murders civilians, including children.

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Response to Uncle Joe (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 11:37 AM

Irish_Dem (33,978 posts)

4. Confirms my belief the US had to lean on Germany to do the right thing here.

Germany is foolish to align with Putin.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #4)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 04:35 PM

xocetaceans (3,542 posts)

8. It's not clear that her opinion is remotely in the majority.

One thing that is clear from what she said in the following speech which was made immediately prior to Russia's invasion of Ukraine is that W's invasion of Iraq cost the US whatever trustworthiness we may have had in the eyes of many. She echoes many of the points of the (IMO) misguided left in this speech:

Here's an article that discusses aspects of what she said and how she has seemingly thought about Russia and Ukraine for years. I apologize that I don't have time to translate. (DeepL does a decent job of translation.)

https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/abgeordnete-der-linken-zeigen-verstandnis-fur-den-kreml-5997169.html

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Response to xocetaceans (Reply #8)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 04:48 PM

Irish_Dem (33,978 posts)

9. I am not going by what anyone is saying. I am looking at Germany's behavior.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #9)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 06:38 PM

xocetaceans (3,542 posts)

10. Fair enough.

Nevertheless, it does seem exceptionally hyperbolic (and pretty much ridiculous on its face) to assert that Germany being seemingly unwilling to hand over tanks (with some arbitrarily defined degree of rapidity) is "aligning with Putin".

But whatever...

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Response to xocetaceans (Reply #10)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 07:08 PM

Irish_Dem (33,978 posts)

11. I look at behavior. Talk is cheap as my grandmother used to say.

Everyone knows Germany has been cosy with Putin for some time.
And that Germany was reluctant to help Ukraine from the start of the invasion.
Germany is interested in Nord Stream, energy, money.

And it is public fact Germany did not want to hand over tanks and did not want other
countries to do so either.

Facing reality, dealing in hard facts is neither hyperbolic nor ridiculous.
I consider happy talk and and denial of reality to fit those descriptors.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #11)

Thu Jan 26, 2023, 10:56 AM

xocetaceans (3,542 posts)

12. Clearly, there's a lack of appreciation for Germany's politics, of military matters, and

...of the lasting effect of WWII on German foreign policy in your argument, but before that are the fallacies.

"As my grandmother used to say" is the first fallacious statement.

"Everyone knows" is your second fallacious statement.

Over-generalizations abound after that.

Jumping to the end, "Facing reality" seems to be shorthand for oversimplifying a situation's description so as to smooth away its nuances and make it easier to compartmentalize, but I could be incorrect about your philosophy's implications.

In the end, your argument fails to justify your "aligning with Putin" assertion about Germany.

Here's a brief discussion of some of the considerations made in Germany:

Here's an article you might enjoy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought-terminating_clich%C3%A9

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