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Sun Aug 28, 2022, 11:46 PM

Our new pupster, Frankie

We've actually had her for a month, just had to get pics uploaded.

Meet Frankie! She is a Scottish Collie--one of the, "old time collies," like you see in old paintings. Actually kind of rare these days, with their own registry. We adopted her from a breeder that has decided to go with a different breed.

She's a year old, and a complete doll baby, that has already brought great joy to our lives. She's funny, too smart, and loves to run, jump, and play. One of the most loving dogs I've ever had. Since our other 3 are getting up in years, we thought it was time to introduce a youngster. We are totally smitten.






Laying beside one of the Great Pyrenees.

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Arrow 25 replies Author Time Post
Reply Our new pupster, Frankie (Original post)
Bayard Aug 2022 OP
Sogo Aug 2022 #1
Demovictory9 Aug 2022 #2
wnylib Aug 2022 #3
Bayard Aug 2022 #4
wnylib Aug 2022 #5
SheltieLover Aug 2022 #6
IrishAfricanAmerican Aug 2022 #7
Duppers Aug 2022 #8
Raine Aug 2022 #9
Donkees Aug 2022 #10
Bayard Aug 2022 #12
Donkees Aug 2022 #13
Bayard Aug 2022 #14
Donkees Aug 2022 #16
Bayard Aug 2022 #18
Donkees Aug 2022 #19
Bayard Aug 2022 #21
Donkees Aug 2022 #22
Boomerproud Aug 2022 #11
Bayard Aug 2022 #15
Cracklin Charlie Aug 2022 #17
tblue37 Aug 2022 #20
cksmithy Aug 2022 #23
Bayard Aug 2022 #24
highplainsdem Aug 2022 #25

Response to Bayard (Original post)

Mon Aug 29, 2022, 12:11 AM

1. A beauty....

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Response to Bayard (Original post)

Mon Aug 29, 2022, 12:20 AM

2. Cute 🐶

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Response to Bayard (Original post)

Mon Aug 29, 2022, 12:37 AM

3. Looks like a large border collie.

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Response to wnylib (Reply #3)

Mon Aug 29, 2022, 12:40 AM

4. A bit smaller than a Border Collie

And as the breeder told me--"less intense."

She's about 40 lbs. I can pick her up.

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Response to Bayard (Reply #4)

Mon Aug 29, 2022, 12:47 AM

5. Smaller? In the pic, it looks large

to me compared to border collie I have known. It's still a pup, isn't it?

I had a border collie years ago. People not familiar with the breed used to ask me if he was a miniature collie or a sheltie. Border collies are shorter than collies and do not have the long, full coat of a collie or sheltie.

Yes, border collies can be intense. Mine was very active, smart, protective, and a loving sweetheart.

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Response to Bayard (Original post)

Mon Aug 29, 2022, 01:52 AM

6. Beautiful pupper!

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Response to Bayard (Original post)

Mon Aug 29, 2022, 02:03 AM

7. Wonderful!

Congratulations!


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Response to Bayard (Original post)

Mon Aug 29, 2022, 02:27 AM

8. Frankie is gorgeous.

And she looks as if she is settling in just fine...your GP's are accepting her into the family. Yay!
Collies are so sensitive & smart; hope you have many many years together with her.



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Response to Bayard (Original post)

Mon Aug 29, 2022, 03:09 AM

9. She's GORGEOUS!!! ❤ nt

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Response to Bayard (Original post)

Mon Aug 29, 2022, 06:10 AM

10. Madainn Mhath Frankie ❤️

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Response to Donkees (Reply #10)

Mon Aug 29, 2022, 10:42 AM

12. Thanks for the find!

I'll be keeping that.

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Response to Bayard (Reply #12)

Mon Aug 29, 2022, 11:30 AM

13. Photo Caption: Professor Duncan's Scotch Collies performed on both sides of the Atlantic ...

Professor Duncan’s Scotch Collies performed on both sides of the Atlantic from the 1890s to 1920s

https://nationalpurebreddogday.com/professor-duncans-marvelous-collie-dogs/



It turns out that these dogs were “Professor Duncan’s Marvelous Collie Dogs,” billed as Duncan’s Royal Scotch Collies. In the late 19th century leading into the early 1900’s, Professor Duncan’s dogs entertained the people of London, and, in fact, topped the bill of the Pavilion during the first week of 1915. They were described as the “acme of animal training,” having appeared ‘before their Majesties by Royal Command!





Dunrovins Ole Shep was one of the remnant Scotch Collies found in America in the early 1990s
(https://www.thescottishfarmer.co.uk/)

Now I'm reading more about 'Dunrovins Ole Shep' here:

These dogs were essentially pure old Scotch Collie as they existed around the turn of the century, but Mr. McDuffie felt the name “Scotch Collie” carried implications related to AKC show dogs and all the health problems that goes along with it, so chose to call this breed “Old Time Farm Shepherd” (OTFS) and began to register them as such with the NKC (National Kennel Club) where they are still registered today.

Ole Shep was bred to a pair of female English Shepherd littermates he obtained from Western Tennessee, Dunrovin’s Moline and Dunrovin’s Sassy. Only two litters were obtained from him, one from each female, before Ole Shep was stolen and Mr. McDuffie lost interest in the project. From these two litters were obtained (as far as I can determine) four dogs that have contributed to the farm collie genepool; McDuffie’s Beethoven, Chesney’s Rebel, Carter’s Rusty and Dunrovin’s Tankard, the rest were presumably sold to places where they were not bred with other farm collies, or if they were, their progeny are less well documented. Richard McDuffie’s son Rick owned McDuffie’s Beethoven and bred a few litters, which was the largest contribution to the farm collie movement to come out of Ole Shep, but over time he lost interest too.


Today most of the descendants of Dunrovin’s Ole Shep are registered English Shepherds, which isn’t necessarily bad as these are good working dogs, but Mr. McDuffie and many others saw something different in these dogs, something that had been lost in the English Shepherd breed, and as we get farther and farther from Ole Shep, we lose more and more of that, as these genes are diluted with English Shepherd blood. There is therefore something to be said for keeping the uniqueness of the Scotch Collie alive by breeding OTFS to OTFS or at the very least to carefully selected individuals of other breeds.


https://www.oldtimefarmshepherd.org/current-collie-articles/dunrovins-ole-shep-and-the-otfs-legacy/


Dunrovins Ole Shep


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Response to Donkees (Reply #13)

Mon Aug 29, 2022, 02:07 PM

14. Thank you!

Scotchcollie.org says:

"In 1900 the Scotch Collie was the dog to have, they were sought after by farmers for their herding ability and they were sought after by city dwellers because they were intelligent and loyal pets, in fact the qualities that made the Scotch Collie a great farm dog were largely the exact same properties that made it a great family dog, their intelligence and desire to please. Later in the 20th century fancy show dogs and the decline of the small family farm made the Scotch Collie obsolete, a few people began searching for and reviving these dogs in the 1980s and 1990s. Today we have a small population of these fantastic dogs left, join us as we work to preserve and increase the Old-Time Scotch Collie."

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Response to Bayard (Reply #14)

Mon Aug 29, 2022, 02:49 PM

16. Came across Scotchcollie.org earlier today, have moved on to oldtimefarmshepherd.org :)

https://www.oldtimefarmshepherd.org/current-collie-articles/farm-collie-movement/happened-shep-linda-rorem/

Whatever Happened to Old Shep? by Linda Rorem
Farm Collie Movement



“Bob” lived during the 1920’s in Rockford, IL

Within the overall category of this “old fashioned collie” were local variants, but the basic type was similar to the dog described by John Holmes in The Farmer’s Dog:

There are several other types of Collie quite distinct from the Border Collie in that they are ‘loose-eyed’ workers. Most of these are native to Scotland and include the old-fashioned Scotch Collie from which the modern show collie is descended. now practically extinct, I have clear recollections of several of these dogs in my youth and believe that, in my early efforts to walk, I was assisted by one. They were all easy-going, level-headed dogs, useful but not flashy workers, and quite willing to lie about the place when there was nothing better to do. Personally, I think it a great pity that this type has been practically exterminated by the increasing popularity of ‘strong-eyed’ dogs. For all-round farm work they were often far more use than the classically bred [trials type] dog.

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Response to Donkees (Reply #16)

Tue Aug 30, 2022, 08:03 AM

18. Saving that to read later

Wondering what the difference is between loose eyed and strong eyed.

When I was younger, I had an AKC registered Rough Collie. She was completely brainless.

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Response to Bayard (Reply #18)

Tue Aug 30, 2022, 08:35 AM

19. My interest in this topic is rooted in my earlier research on Border Collies ...

It seems the earlier Collies were shaped more by temperament selection, intelligence, and health and not so much by ''breed standard" appearances. They seem to have had a more balanced nervous system, and not as obsessive in behavior as modern Border Collies, 'throw the ball!, throw the ball!, throw the ball!' They worked and they were able to relax.

The difference between loose eyed and strong eyed in herding breeds:

The strong-eyed dogs tend to have speed, intensity and a lot of drive – all traits that help them to excel at covering stock in large areas and taking control of the livestock. The International sheep dog trials that are commonly seen on television are designed to show off these points. These strong-eyed dogs have been bred to work in this style. They have also been bred for working temperament, to be biddable working for and with their handler. Many give easily to pressure, reacting quickly to handler’s training techniques.

In comparison, many of the loose-eyed dogs have been bred to work independently, learning from other dogs on the farm, or through trial and error. These dogs excel working in small pens, stockyards, feed lots and sorting chutes doing ranch or farm chores. They use their presence and/or voice to move a large group from the rear when the stock at the front cannot see them. Many are versatile; they will work cattle in chutes one day and move geese, ducks or sheep the next. The independence they are bred for can make training very frustrating, especially for the beginner handler. They are bred to push into pressure, which means their reactions will differ from the strong-eyed breeds and the training techniques being used.

https://downriver.allbreedherding.com/loose-eye-versus-strong-eye/

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Response to Donkees (Reply #19)

Tue Aug 30, 2022, 12:32 PM

21. The same traits

Make Border Collies excel at agility trials.

We're just trying to teach Frankie not to chase baby goats right now!

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Response to Bayard (Reply #21)

Tue Aug 30, 2022, 01:53 PM

22. That was the starting point of my original research, Agility trials and 'Reactive' Border Collies...

While it's often been advised for Border Collies coming out of the shelter system, (those who are over-aroused, hyper vigilant, over-reactive, highly stressed, destructive, etc.), to engage in such intense exercise in order to 'tire them out', it actually makes their behavior worse and more obsessive. These dogs' stress levels take a longer time to dissipate. I don't recall the name of the behaviorist who was a Collie expert, but she did say that working Collies wouldn't be valuable to a farm if they were so highly excitable. They needed to be able to 'shut off' as well.

Basically, this thread has come full circle for me, learning about the early Scottish collies and their temperament, health. The only Border Collies I've come across were from shelters.

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Response to Bayard (Original post)

Mon Aug 29, 2022, 06:11 AM

11. Wishing you and Frankie a long and wonderful life together.

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Response to Bayard (Original post)

Mon Aug 29, 2022, 02:08 PM

15. Thank you, my friends, for your well wishes!

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Response to Bayard (Original post)

Mon Aug 29, 2022, 07:40 PM

17. Pretty face!

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Response to Bayard (Original post)

Tue Aug 30, 2022, 08:37 AM

20. Beautiful baby!

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Response to Bayard (Original post)

Tue Aug 30, 2022, 02:38 PM

23. What a sweet pea!

We adopted our first dog from Monterey county spca, didn't know what breed she was as a puppy. Looked very much like Frankie. Very smart, learned how to shake hands after one time with a treat. She loved to run, we finally realized what she was when we saw an ad for a Scottish whiskey, with her in the ad. I finally took her to obedience class at 11 years of age, she of course was top dog, and flabbergasted/stunned the teacher, at her age and how how smart she was. When I took a another rescue dog to the same class several years later, the teacher was still telling how it's never too late to train a dog and was bragging about our sweet dog, who had since passed away at 16 years of age. Deaf and blind I would tap her on the shoulder and she would know which was to go to get her to bed or her food bowl. She was so sweet and would speak to you, ask her a question, and she would answer, with dog speak not barks but roo, roo. Had a great vocabulary knew words like bed, ride, walk, what do you want to do? We would spell words because she was so smart. Her name was Carol and way before digital photos so I can't post a picture of her. She spoiled us, we thought all dogs were that smart.

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Response to cksmithy (Reply #23)

Tue Aug 30, 2022, 08:48 PM

24. What a great story!

Thanks for sharing.

And welcome to DU!

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Response to Bayard (Original post)

Tue Aug 30, 2022, 08:54 PM

25. Awww, she's adorable! What a perfect addition to your family!

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