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Flying in the 60s. The Convair-880. (Original Post) trof Dec 2013 OP
Hey trof, didn't they have a lot of problems with the -880? nt Callmecrazy Dec 2013 #1
We didn't once they were 'operational'. trof Dec 2013 #2
The only real problem is that it served a niche market segment Blue_Tires Dec 2013 #13
Isn't Elvis' airplane, the Lisa Marie, a Convair 880? The Velveteen Ocelot Dec 2013 #3
That was one. Photo: trof Dec 2013 #4
It was rumored that he also had a Dehavilland Comet at one time. trof Dec 2013 #5
70s tacky is a step up for Elvis. AuntFester Dec 2013 #6
Oh, yeah. I especially liked the Jungle Room The Velveteen Ocelot Dec 2013 #8
It is a little surprising that the speed hasn't increased much in 40 years BlueStreak Dec 2013 #7
It's deliberate due to modern economics Populist_Prole Dec 2013 #12
Well for a brief time early in the jet age Blue_Tires Dec 2013 #14
I don't dispute any of that BlueStreak Dec 2013 #15
Ah, the good old days liberaltrucker Dec 2013 #9
How about 10 years earlier in a Super Connie? Major Nikon Dec 2013 #10
Fun post thanks! Agschmid Dec 2013 #11

trof

(54,256 posts)
2. We didn't once they were 'operational'.
Mon Dec 9, 2013, 08:20 PM
Dec 2013

Maybe Convair did in development, but I never heard anything about it.
never had a serious problem...engine failure/fire, etc.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
13. The only real problem is that it served a niche market segment
Tue Dec 10, 2013, 04:07 PM
Dec 2013

which was done better by competitors...It was also a *very* fuel-thirsty aircraft, even by 1960s standards....

This post I've pasted from A.net will tell the general story:



Quoting rolypolyman (Thread starter):
Is there anything that might have made the convair 990 a candidate for re-engining with, say, CFM-56s around 1980, had it survived that long or had the CFM-56 come out sooner? I know that the airlines were eager to get rid of CV990s by 1970, but I'm not sure if low passenger capacity was the main issue or if it was mostly fuel consumption numbers.

Moreover, it seems that the plane might have been a candidate for stretching, too, which Douglas used successfully to solve the slowdown with its DC-8 order books in the mid-1960s. Did convair consider this? Even if they were financially strapped it might have been a way for them to break even on sales. A transpacific stretch-990 doing M.88 on the SFO-ANC-HND route would have posed clear marketing advantages, especially during the years before widebodies were put on those routes.


Sorry, Mr. Rolypoly, but the entire basis for the 990 was it was going to be faster than the 707 and DC-8. When the performance specs could not be met, there really was no reason for the airplane. It had a cabin that was basically the same width as the DC-9, MD-80 series, but it had four engines, and required three pilots. There were plenty of DC-8 and B-707's that could have been re-engined with the CFM-56 and were not, because it was not cost effective. The 990 should never have been built, as there was a very small market for the airplane. Of the 37 built, 25 were ordered by American, but they only took delivery of 20 airframes. When the order was placed for the convair 600 Skylark, C.R. Smith, AA's President, bought the airplane to operate it on a premium service coast to coast in a first class only configuration. This was before the introduction of the 707 and the widespread dual class airplanes. Suddenly, most people figured out that the premium of first class to sit in one section of the airplane vs another was not a value to them. As my dad said, some 50 years ago, the back of the airplane gets there at the same time as the front.

The 990 never achieved the range that was originally proposed by convair. The 2-3 seating narrow fuselage ended up making the airplane's economics a loser, compared to the B-720B which was faster and had been performance and range. By 1970, the 747 had come out and it was faster than the 990 was even projected to be, and within a few years, and the introduction of the DC-10 and L-1011, transcon, transatlantic, and transpacific passengers demanded wide body comfort.

With the decision to build the 727, the 720 and 880/990's lifespan in mainline service became very limited. The GE engines probably didn't help the convair Jets either, and I have no idea if there ever was a plan to hang JT-3D's or JT-4's from their pods. But the non fan 720 only sold 65 units, as did the 880. And once the 727-200 came along, even if the convair was still in production, it was finished, because the 727 held more people, cost less to operate, and had the same basic range.

The convair jets were comfortable, and enjoyable to travel in as a passenger. I only flew on a 990 once, from ORD to BOS, but I flew on many 880 flights including quite a few on Delta and TWA during 1973, just prior to the retirement of the aircraft the next year. Once fuel went up, they were uneconomical, but they did last with both carriers for 13 years of basically trouble free service, which at the time, was longer than most aircraft stayed around.

The 990, on the other hand, was a bastard airplane. American retired them before the Electra. There just was no niche for them. They were mostly used on flights from Chicago to both coasts, and NY to Dallas and west. But American made another equipment mistake when it ordered the BAC-111-400 instead of the DC-9. The 400 Astrojets didn't hang around long either, and most of them because corporate aircraft rather than being sold to 2nd tier carriers.

As far as stretching the fuselage, that would have had to been done in the early 60's. When General Dynamics decided to end 880 and 990 production after the sale of only 101 airplanes, they broke up the tooling and the production line. This allowed them to write off their loss on the entire project at one time. That loss, $475 Million, was the largest corporate loss in US history at the time. The 990 was as stretched 880. How much longer it could have been made with wing and landing gear changes, I have no idea, but a stretched version would not have held any more passengers than a DC-8-50 or B-707-300B/C, because of the narrower fuselage.


http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/4891705/?threadid=4891705&searchid=4891735&s=convair+880+sales#ID4891735

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,674 posts)
3. Isn't Elvis' airplane, the Lisa Marie, a Convair 880?
Mon Dec 9, 2013, 08:24 PM
Dec 2013

It's on display at Graceland, and the interior is as early-70s tacky as you might imagine.

trof

(54,256 posts)
5. It was rumored that he also had a Dehavilland Comet at one time.
Mon Dec 9, 2013, 08:48 PM
Dec 2013


For a long time it was parked at O'Hare.
The rumor was that Elvis refused to pay 'outlandish' landing fees and that the plane had been confiscated in lieu of the fees.
???

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,674 posts)
8. Oh, yeah. I especially liked the Jungle Room
Mon Dec 9, 2013, 09:05 PM
Dec 2013

which I think is the room with the green shag carpeting on the walls and ceiling. The Lisa Marie is similarly accoutered.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
7. It is a little surprising that the speed hasn't increased much in 40 years
Mon Dec 9, 2013, 09:05 PM
Dec 2013

Other than the Concorde and the high-end business jets, most other planes are still slower than the 880. I guess the Airbus A380 is a little faster and has a higher ceiling (43,000 feet).

Everything is about range and fuel economy.

Populist_Prole

(5,364 posts)
12. It's deliberate due to modern economics
Tue Dec 10, 2013, 03:05 AM
Dec 2013

A plane like the Convair 880's appetite for fuel would eat its operator out of house and home today, higher cruise speed notwithstanding, and nobody but the rich will be willing to pay for the difference. 500-550 mph ( corrected true airspeed in still air ) is deemed fast enough, and so large-diameter high bypass engines and wings that are less swept back are the rules of today.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
14. Well for a brief time early in the jet age
Tue Dec 10, 2013, 04:35 PM
Dec 2013

the #1 reason travelers flocked to jets was speed...A five hour flight in a Martin 4-0-4 would be two and a half or less in the CV 880(remember at that time when buying a ticket between major cities, the customer had some leeway in choice since airliners would service the route with a variety of airframes)...

Well Convair (wrongly) thought that a jet a little faster than it's contemporaries would be a huge selling point for airlines and flyers...But as jet travel became more widespread, customers didn't really care if the 880 got you to the destination 20 minutes earlier than a DC-8 so there was no 'market value' on the additional speed (although most pilots loved the additional performance)...

And yes, fuel economy is everything these days since customers these days only care about seat price, and with so many more airframes flying today, speed and noise restrictions over many cities, and congestion in high-traffic controlled airspace, speed means a lot less than it used to...

(trof can correct me if I'm wrong about anything)

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
15. I don't dispute any of that
Tue Dec 10, 2013, 05:15 PM
Dec 2013

Certainly for your typical 2-4 hour flight, the different between 600 and 650 knots is not going to be apparent to the passenger, given the normal variations in ATC and wind speed.

But I would have thought that there might be more of a case on the long haul flights where that could make a 90 minute difference. Clearly if the extra speed completely destroys fuel consumption and range, then it doesn't work as a commercial proposition. But this seems to me like it should have been a case where the longer-haul jets could fly another 15,000 feet higher and end up with decent fuel economy. I know it is a lot more complicated than that. And I have no doubt every airframe company has been over this a million times and the numbers just don't work.

All I'm saying is it seems like it should have been something that would have evolved, and it seems counter-intuitive that there really is no movement in 30 years.

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