Men: Please give me the straight, unvarnished, non-PC truth

[Flaxbee]

If you are in a marriage, do you need to be motivated by your spouse to work, to do your best to help provide for him/her?

Do you need or expect him or her to cater to needs you don't ever express / won't tell him or her? And expect him or her to just figure it out?

Would you blame the fact that you haven't completed a project / haven't earned any sort of steady income in over a decade on the fact that your partner didn't motivate you to provide for him or her?

[Adsos Letter]

1. "No" to each of your questions. n/t

[Flaxbee]

2. OK.

thanks. that was easy.

[petronius]

3. No; maybe; definitely not

The phrasing on the first one isn't quite how I would put it: it's less "providing for her" as it is "contributing to us."

Hope you're well, Flaxbee...

[Flaxbee]

4. yeah,

"contributing to us" works as well. Just not the phrasing I've been hearing.

Thanks, petronius. I don't see that smilie you used in the smilies list, but I'd do it back if I knew how.

[OriginalGeek]

5. lol, no

no although after 27 years (nearly 30 together) she pretty much knows most of what I want and does it anyway. Sometimes she knows what I want before I do. Like the other day when she came home with a bag of chocolate covered pretzels. That shit was tight.
I'm sure I'd miss it if she stopped doing stuff but then, if she did, I probably have pother problems I need to figure out.

and

lol, no.

[noamnety]

6. I'm confused about the gendered part of the question.

Wouldn't this be the same question if you took out the "MEN:" at the beginning?

Is it about expectations in a partnership, or about expectations for men as providers?

[Flaxbee]

7. I understand what you're saying, but in this particular instance, the gendered angle was appropriate

due to a variety of circumstances.

[MissMillie]

8. I never expect anyone to read my mind

But when I ask for anything reasonable, I expect to get it.

[One_Life_To_Give]

9. It depends

There are things she might do that could either motivate or demotivate. So it's not as simple as just my motivation to please her. I have found a spouses ambition or lack there of can influence my own level. In the beginning you may think it won't mater. But over the years ones views shift in response to the environment.

[bemildred]

10. No. nt

[Kaleva]

11. My answers are 1)No, 2)No, 3)No and her answers are the opposite.

[Heddi]

12. No no no and some words and an edit

ON EDIT: I didn't see the "men" part...I'm a woman, so take my advice as it is. I'm sure if my husband was a DU'er he'd say the same thing. Fuck, I know he'd say the same thing because we hve this conversation with friends many times when they come to us with basically the same problems.....


I look at my marriage like a super partnership. I don't do anything *FOR* myself, I do it for us. For the betterment of us. And in nearly every situation I can think of, when *I* better myself, *WE* are better. When *HE* betters himself, *WE* are better. We're better financially, we're better emotionally, we're better just because we're both content or whatever.

I have never pressured my husband to do anything he wasn't happy doing. If he is unhappy with his job, he is free to find another one. I don't have to remind him of the joint responsibility we have towards our household...and it is a joint responsibility that we both agreed to many years ago: you have to do something.

Work...go to school...do something. We don't have kids, but if we did, then 'be a stay at home'er" would be part of that. We have both been full time workers, full time students and no-time or part-time workers...we're now both full time workers and part time students.

He stands behind me and the decisions I make, the same as I do with him. The only caveat we have towards each other is "you have to do something to contribute." Either contribute financially by working, contribute financially in the future by going to school to further the career or whatever.

The motivation is that there is no free lunch. It's unfair, in my view, for me to sit at home doing nothing while he works 40 hours a week to support my ass while I 'find myself." Equally unfair for me to work 40 hours a week while he "finds himself."

And I don't expect anything from my spouse, and I think that's a problem a lot of people have with their marriages/relationships. The only person I have the right to EXPECT anything from is ME, because I'm the only person I am in control of.

Of course I mean that if he says "I'll pick you up at 4pm" I kind of expect him to be there at or around 4, but that's not the same as "i expected roses for my birthday."

Expect nothing and you'll never be unhappy. And if you don't let your needs be known, you can't be disappointed when those needs aren't met.

I'm not big into the "psychic read my mind" thing. Those are games that 14 year olds play. It's a passive aggressive move. Why can't someone tell their spouse/partner what they want, or what makes them happy? Seems silly and dramatic.

I don't blame anyone for my lack of motivation. Neither does my husband. Again, passive aggressive.

I don't know what your situation is, but it sounds like the issue isn't work or not work, needs met vs needs not met. All of these questions boil to communication. If you can't communicate with the person you're sharing your life with, then why are you spending your life with them?

Mr. Heddi and I have been a couple for 17 years, married for 14. WE learned a loooong time ago that WE HAVE TO COMMUNICATE or nothing gets done.

And it takes 2 people to communicate. I dont' believe in that "well he doesn't tell me what he wants/she doesn't tell me blah blah" YOU have to tell the other person. If you don't, then you can't blame the other person for not knowing. If you tell them and they do nothing, then I feel you have to evaluate why you're spending your time with someone who doesn't care about what you say or your feelings.

[noamnety]

15. The points you are making about communication

remind me of something I saw in another forum recently about ask culture vs. guess culture:

"In some families, you grow up with the expectation that it's OK to ask for anything at all, but you gotta realize you might get no for an answer. This is Ask Culture.

In Guess Culture, you avoid putting a request into words unless you're pretty sure the answer will be yes. Guess Culture depends on a tight net of shared expectations. A key skill is putting out delicate feelers. If you do this with enough subtlety, you won't even have to make the request directly; you'll get an offer. Even then, the offer may be genuine or pro forma; it takes yet more skill and delicacy to discern whether you should accept.

All kinds of problems spring up around the edges. If you're a Guess Culture person ... then unwelcome requests from Ask Culture people seem presumptuous and out of line, and you're likely to feel angry, uncomfortable, and manipulated.

If you're an Ask Culture person, Guess Culture behavior can seem incomprehensible, inconsistent, and rife with passive aggression."

http://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-between-FU-and-Welcome#830421

I think it's helpful to remember that people have different communication styles, and one isn't necessarily better or worse than the other - but it's really easy to be pissed at our partners and think one is passive aggressive - or demanding - without recognizing that it's just a difference in how we approach requests.

Me, I don't care for example if my shoes are all over the kitchen floor. It doesn't detract from my quality of life at all. But it does bother my husband. He doesn't understand why I don't just put them away every day if I care about them. And sometimes I get annoyed that he glares at the shoes and gets all pissy, and that makes me not want to pick them up immediately because I don't want to reward passive aggressive behavior on his part. I don't get why he can't just say "hey, can you pick up your shoes, they're piling up again" and that would make me do it without resenting it.

(I did pick them all up yesterday while he was out for a walk. I don't totally suck as a wife.)

[Heddi]

25. I totally get your last few paragraphs

my husband and I have vastly different cleaning styles. I'm more of a "why make the bed when we're just going to sleep in it tonight?" and he's more of a "because I like it that way."

For 16 years we have butted heads about how often the house should be vaccuumed (more often than I'd personally like), how neat the closet should be (neater than I'm willing to make it), etc.

Like your example above, I bucked every time I'd hear "would you PUHLEEESE straighten up the closet?" "Will you PLEASE clean the hair off the sink" and it was like "god, what a fucking nag. Do it yourself if it's so important."

THen I realized it obviously WAS important to him, for whatever reason. Just like some stupid things that are meaningless to him are important to me. He doesn't give me shit about being on DU. He lets me do things I enjoy.

So I realized that as much as I don't like vaccuuming the house 3 days a week, it's important to him that it be done. 99% of the time he does it. So why should I get my ass chapped when it's my turn to pitch in?

But we communicated about it. I told him that I felt resentful when I felt he was dictating that I do things that weren't necessary. No one is going to die if the house isn't vaccuumed. In your example, no one is going to go hungry if the shoes aren't put away.

He told me that he felt like I just didn't care about us our our house by not cleaning it once in a while. Or chipping in on the cleaning.

So we communicated about our communication style. We're still not perfect...he can be a nag, and I can be a lazy sot. But I understand more where he's coming from when he gets annoyed that the cat box isn't cleaned. They're my cats, too. I get that. I try to be better. He tries to be better.

But if we didn't talk with each other, if he didn't tell me that it was hurtful to him that I kind of "expected" him to do all the cleaning, and if I didn't tell him that I really didn't like being nagged like I was 2 year old, we'd be doing our same old communication styles and getting nowhere but more and more full of resentment towards what we each were and weren't doing.

I do think there are less effective means of communication, but that "good" and "bad" are dependent on the type of person you and your partner are. And I think that realizing that people communicate differently is key. My husband is a big proponent of LETS TALK IT ALL OUT RIGHT NOW when something comes up. I find I need time to gather my thoughts, formulate ideas. So for a while he thought I was being cold and uncaring since I didn't want to TALK IT ALL OUT RIGHT NOW. After many silly fights about why I'm not talking, or why I'm not contributing to the situation, I finally was able to realize WHY (I need time to gather my thoughts, formulate an idea/plan/etc) and now he gets it. So now he doesn't expect me to communicate the same way he does. I can't expect him to communicate the same way I do.

THe key is talking. Letting the other person know how you feel. That's the most you can do. You can't make them listen, understand, or empathize. You can only control yourself, your actions, your emotions.

[Sherman A1]

13. Ah, No

I admit to being rather old school, in that I believe it is the man's responsibility to take care of his wife and family. I believe it is his responsibility to also do his share around the house (and each family divides the chores up as they see to be best for them).

I believe it's my job to have a job that provides the necessary income (and I know today's economy is what it is) or at least a significant part of it. It is also my responsibility to do such things as this morning scraping the ice and snow off of both cars and the drive before I left for work at 4:20 am, so that my wife could simply get in her car and back out of the driveway. It will also be my chore to have dinner at least started when she comes home as I get home earlier. I will do some household chores over my mid-week weekend and she will do some over her normal weekend.

I don't expect her to read my mind nor would I blame her for not completing a project ( I have had to delay some household renovations while she was off from work for a medical issue a couple of years ago, but that was about as close as I could get to any "blame" for not completing a project).

A young lady (about 20 years younger than I) with whom I work came in rather happy this morning, because her husband who works at the school district and was off as schools were cancelled actually went out and scraped her car windows. She thought it was so very nice of him to do so. I found it just so foreign a concept and kinda sad that this was not just a matter of course.

Hope that serves as an acceptable response.

[Flaxbee]

19. My husband is rather old school too,

it's nice that you know where he's coming from.


I really don't want to be too specific on a public forum, but I thank you for your perspective. It helps.

[Sherman A1]

22. Just guessin' here

but, it appears that someone of whom you know (acquaintance, relative or friend) has a spouse or "significant other" who needs a boot driven all the way up their arse until it tickles their tonsils. The individual of whom you make mention that is blaming their mate for their failings and such, is simply a self centered, narcissistic lout in my opinion, but that is just my opinion. I believe that in a marriage or similar relationship You put the other person first as best you can (and we all fail to do so each and every day, but one keeps trying.

There was a business acquaintance years ago that passed away suddenly at a fairly young age leaving behind a lovely family and naturally the funeral was a very sad event. He was always a funny, irreverent guy when we spoke and a bit of a smart a** and just a hoot. I learned at the funeral that he had married his high school sweetheart many years earlier and each day no matter what, he had sent to her a rose. While I don't make it to the standard he set, I try to do something each day for my wife.

PM me if You want to expand on anything or if I can be of any added assistance.

[Heddi]

26. I'm not the OP, but I agree with what you say

By being married or partnered with someone, the idea SHOULD be "this person comes first in my life now." It's this odd idea of committement, I guess. Love. Seflessness.

That doesn't mean that I'm going to die on a railroad track if that makes him happy. But it means that I work not just to put a roof over MY head, but over HIS head as well. I cook dinner not just so I can eat, but so that HE can eat as well.

I know so many people who, despite being married or partnered, consider themselves to be the same independent island they were when they were single.

I LIKE making my husband happy. He LIKES making me happy. We ENJOY supporting each other. I chose a much better career BECAUSE of his help, support, love. That career allows me to make a much better income...not for me, for US. He eventually chose the same career because of my help, support, love. That career allows HIM to make a much better income. not for him, for US.

That being said, I don't put an income limit on his head. I don't tell him that I wont' accept anything less than $80k a year. If he's making paper airplanes and selling them on ebay, and that makes him happy, then I'm happy for him. But he has to contribute something. THat's just part of the deal we made with each other. You have to contribute something.

If I wanted to care solely about myself, I'd have stayed single.

[Sherman A1]

27. Thank You Kindly,

Your position stated in Your previous post expanded eloquently upon my sentiments, so much so that I felt somewhat embarrassed by my posting. It is a partnership, but I believe that Love dictates putting the other first, again never perfectly and never 100% of the time is that possible, but I always believe it has to be the first part of the mix. If you have chosen this "other" as your life's partner why on earth would you not put them first?

The co-worker who I mentioned in my previous posting has been told directly and as a matter of fact by her husband that she is not first in his mind, the children come first (and frankly I believe he is.... well, You can insert Your adjective). Granted children require great care and attention, but they came along as a product of the marriage, hence I would always think one would put one's spouse first. But, that is just my opinion.

[rug]

14. Yes.

Furthermore, if I weren't married I'd bathe less frequently.

Yes and yes.

A soulmate knows my soul.

Naturally.

Wait, is this a push poll?

[Major Nikon]

24. I've always wondered why my wife keeps asking if it's Saturday night yet

[sendero]

16. We have a saying here...

...... in senderoland "I can't look at your ass and read your mind".

Now I realize this is nominally directed at the scenario of a male trying to understand a female, but IMHO it applies without regard to gender. If you want someone to understand a situation you should explain it to them in plain language, not expect them to read your mind.

You are home free.

[840high]

17. Absolutely no. Cop-out.

[kairos12]

18. No, no, and hell no.

[Flaxbee]

20. Thanks to all who have replied and those who still may

I appreciate the perspective. Without going into a lot of detail, I don't feel so lost anymore.

[Demo_Chris]

21. No / No / No nt

[davidpdx]

23. I think most people have probably answered your question

I'll just chime in on the mind reading. I think it's unrealistic to believe that a spouse (doesn't matter whether it is a man or woman) should be able to read your mind.

My wife sometimes says she wants me to read her mind. Now sometimes I can pick up on things and I'll ask her or just offer to do something. The big difference between us is cultural, which also leads to some interesting problems.

[NewJeffCT]

28. by "to work" do you mean at a place of employment

or work around the house? In both cases, I tend to do better when nobody is trying to "motivate" me. And, I do most of the housework at home, and have been steadily employed since college... though, my wife now makes more than me, so I don't "provide" for her and our daughter. We both provide for the family.

In regards to catering to needs - no. If I don't voice what I want, I don't expect my wife to read my mind & figure it out.

And, I tend to blame myself for anything bad that happens in my life - i.e., if I couldn't hold a steady job, I would first look in the mirror. When my ex-wife and I had marital troubles, I blamed myself entirely (at first, at least...)

[Wolf Frankula]

29. To Answer your Questions

No,
No,
No.

Wolf

[BlancheSplanchnik]

30. no to all three questions.

a "partner" who blames the other for his/her own irresponsible behavior is being---irresponsible.

And extremely immature. Blaming the other one for "not motivating him/her?" and for "not reading his/her mind"? for over a decade? ? That's not just a "rough patch". That's massive selfishness and manipulation.

Also, anyone who expects you to read their mind now has a perfect excuse to be ugly to you anytime he/she is in a lousy mood. He/she's all butthurt and it's YOUR fault.

[Duppers]

31. that would be 3 ...

Hell-no's!

[Deep13]

32. oddly specific for a hypothetical. nt