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DebJ

(7,699 posts)
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 02:45 AM Mar 2014

My sister wants to have my parents declared completely mentally incompetent.

I'm fearful of what might happen here, particularly in the state of North Carolina, where civil rights don't seem to amount
to a hill of beans. I am wondering about the interstate impact of a judge's decision to declare someone mentally incompetent. Can a NC judge do that to a couple who reside in WV and are just visiting their daughter in NC? If the couple gets back to WV, would the NC judge's order hold weight in WV? This whole thing is just making me sick to my stomach.

There are four daughters in my family. Three of us do not believe my parents are mentally incompetent; a fourth who lives in NC wants to have them legally declared so as of yesterday, and have herself placed as the person who would make all decisions on their behalf. My parents, who live in WV, are currently visiting at this fourth sister's home in North Carolina, and that's what scares me.

They went to visit my sister there to avoid the winter snows (good decision with THIS winter), and to consider the possibility of moving in with her after their house sells (it was placed on the market in November). Turns out my mother is absolutely miserable there and does NOT want to live there with them. Mom is a social butterfly and always has been. She makes friends easily; everyone loves her. Her need to socialize is much stronger than her will to live; it is that important to her. With her advanced age now (85) and health, she literally will die without a strong daily base of socialization. She has been completely isolated down there with my sister. She went there thinking she could help keep my sister company, as my brother-in-law travels for work half the time, and also Mom would have more company for herself, now that her health issues keep her at home many days. But my sister completely ignores her. She doesn't even answer Mom when Mom is talking to her to make conversation (I asked my sister about that, and she admitted it. I was too stunned to ask why; she said she's just not a 'conversationalist'). My sister leaves the house and doesn't even tell my parents she is leaving, and doesn't let them know when she will return....sometimes she is gone for 6-7 hours, and they are stuck there alone and unable to go anywhere or do anything. Mom can't even watch TV there; her hearing is very impaired and in order for her to hear it, the volume must be up so loud that it disturbs my sister's mother -in-law, who also lives there (and who never says anything at all to either of my parents; she treats them as if they are invisible, but this woman has very serious issues....) Mom was in the habit of watching the Game Show Network for 6 hours or so of her day everyday, and watching some TV to help her with her insomnia when she tries to sleep; now, she doesn't even have that 'socialization' to keep her mind active. She has nothing but crossword puzzles to occupy her time and her mind most days. Other times when my sister IS home, she stays in her own 'wing' of the house almost the entire day, and they don't even see her or know for sure she is there. At this point, Mom can't wait to get home, back to her own bed, her own routines, etc. She is very miserable, and very uncomfortable there. She can't feel like she is 'at home' at all....how can you feel welcome when you are treated somewhat like a pet goldfish... put in a bowl, looked at when the human feels like it, otherwise ignored, except you are fed and a trip to the vet will be done when necessary. Even a dog would be miserable treated this way. Even my CATS would have been less than happy.

My two other sisters are going to visit them in NC this week, and then Mom plans to return home to WV on the 17th. Mom wants to STAY at home. My sister, however, said she will be driving them home, allowing them to pick up mail and check on the house, and then she will drive them right BACK to NC within a day or two. Mom does NOT want to do that; this has become very clear to all of us at this point. I told my sister in NC that Mom does not want to go right back to NC, and I am sorry I did. I am fearful she might work to have them declared incompetent in NC before they get home to WV. I will be driving to WV when they come back up to insure that this sister doesn't try to bully them into returning with her. She pretty much bullied them into going down in the first place (though this was a good idea as Dad could never have shoveled all the snow this year...he shouldn't shovel any.) But I am very concerned that if she is able to obtain a NC court order quickly to declare them incompetent, that this order could force them back to her house and her control.

I went to visit them myself in NC the last week of February. My sister was pushing hard for me to help her have them declared incompetent. She was pointing out this, that and the other thing that she feels could be used as reasons to have this done. Of painful note in my mind, she was saying 'things that could be USED to have them declared incompetent', if you get my meaning here. She said either they should voluntarily put themselves in this position, or my father (the more easily influenced parent) should say my mother is incompetent, and failing that, she would have a judge declare them both as such without their consent. She tried to talk them into voluntarily giving her the power by telling them that then they could revoke it if they wanted to. Yeah, right. My son has bipolar, and I've been through that when I've had to have him taken to the hospital. Such things are revoked when someone ELSE wants to revoke them. Once you say okay, you have no choice.

During my visit, I observed the behaviors she was referencing. She wanted me to surreptitiously record some conversations to provide 'evidence'. I didn't do that. I came home after my four day visit and thought a great deal about what she had said. I realized that the 'evidence' she was presenting was not valid evidence at all. She told me that she had already seen a lawyer to see what could be done to have them declared incompetent as quickly as possible. I am very upset about this, and feel helpless since I live in Pa, another sister is in Illinois, and the third in Maryland. I am hoping that getting them home to WV might avert a disaster here, that will quickly kill my Mom, literally.

Here's one example of my sister's 'evidence': my mother was calling her banker back in West Virginia every day to ask what her bank balance was. This does, on the surface, seem ridiculous since she only has about 5 transactions a month in that account, and 2 of those are direct deposits. But after talking with Mom (I have spoken to her on the phone almost every day, and sometimes multiple times a day, for over a decade, and I am the only daughter who does this), I realized she was calling her banker not for the bank balance, but because she wants to hear a voice from back at the home front where she has lived the last 25 years. She has known the woman at the bank for over 20 years, in their itty-bitty town of 3000 people. She likes her; trusts her.... misses her and all the other people who were a part of my Mom's little regular routines in her quiet life.

One other piece of 'evidence': my parents were extremely distressed and confused when my Dad's former employer and the union agreed that retirees would no longer get health care coverage as they had in the past. They would provide some coverage for existing retirees, but to do that, there is a rather complicated system where the employer pays a management firm that helps the retirees sign up for supplemental care and Medicare Part D, and then this health care firm pays someone else to reimburse the retirees, and there are a few complicated (for the computer illiterate) steps to be completed in order to get the reimbursement. Like most people in their 80s, my parents are not very comfortable with computerized systems. And this is a pretty tangled arrangement, and hardly one that would be familiar to anyone I would think. My parents pay for the new health care plans out of their Social Security, and have been very distressed because they see the payments going out, but not the reimbursements coming in (because they weren't coming in). My Mom, being 85, would talk about it over and over again in the course of a day, saying she just couldn't understand what was going on. She was very emotional and distressed about it. Now, my family's normal communication mode has always been impassioned and honest speech about ANY subject, so this is not abnormal. And we all talk, a LOT. In fact, when we are all in a room together, there is so much talk it is painful, and we do multiple conversation-streams simultaneously with each other. Mom's just a bit more repetitive than she used to be. During my visit I made the appropriate phone calls, went online, and got it all straightened out for them. I don't find that confusion with this insurance arrangement to be evidence of mental incompetency. Most people I have known most of my life never really understood their health insurance coverage at all anyway. No, my parents just needed some assistance. There is a difference between needing help with your health insurance system (and help with physical chores), and in being in the position where you need to have your right to decide anything whatsoever about your life be decided by someone else. Other issues my sister was pushing are all similar. It seems the best possible thought is just that this one sister, who has always been more quiet, is not compatible as a home companion with two elderly people who are talkative, vibrant, loud, and of strong opinion. Oh, and shortly after I returned home, my NC sister told me on the phone that she thinks my mother is mentally ill, and always has been. Absolutely not! Not in ANY way!

After I returned home, I wrote an 8 page letter to my sister and her husband in NC explaining why I would not support her efforts to have them declared incompetent. I had first discussed this with my other two sisters. We all decided that if Mom wants to go back to WV, even if this does increase my parents' jeopardy because of their more frail condition, if that is how THEY choose to live out their lives, then that is their right. The fourth sister would present this to a lawyer, no doubt, as my parents 'being a jeopardy to themselves.' WOULD THAT HOLD WATER WITH A JUDGE? IN NC? It really terrifies me to think that it would. My parents are wonderful people who worked extremely hard their entire lives to ensure that they would never be dependent on someone else. They treasure their home (albeit the location is a bit too isolated). My parents worked hard, multiple jobs for years, scrimped and saved. All the while they showed GENUINE love for everyone, and I do mean everyone. Even in their late 70s, they would stop for someone walking down the WV backroads to see if they needed help, give the stranger a ride. My Dad was always one with this philosophy: if a man needs the shirt off your back, then take it off and give it to him, period. End of story. They have loved all of their daughters unconditionally, and helped us so many times over the years. My mother LIVES for love of family, and friends, and so does my Dad. They deserve to spend their final years as they wish. Yes, they are more frail. Mom's in a wheel chair (thanks to the drunk that hit her head on at 55mph just before her 60th birthday) and has other health issues. Dad's not got a good back, and he risks hurting it lifting Mom when she needs help. But if they want to live their lives facing that, and this is what they choose, then they should have it. If this means some incident might cause them to depart this life a bit earlier, but that is their choice and they recognize it, then I love them enough to say that is what they should have. Living as a prisoner at my sisters, deprived of the right to make any decisions for themselves when such is NOT necessary (or at least not at this time), would just be living hell for them, and they do not deserve that.

I got the opportunity to review their financial condition, and it is sound. They owe no debt, and after utilities they have $2100 a month most months, as long as both live and they are receiving the pension and both SS checks. They have little saved (how much savings do you need when it is clear you are down to your very final years?), but still save regularly. What bills they do have are mostly paid automatically from their bank accounts. They did very well, in my opinion...and better than most of us can hope for now, sorry to say. Because of their memories failing more often these days, it would be a good idea for one or two of their children to just peek at their bank accounts now and then to make sure they are still in good shape, not victimized by those we have seen working to take advantage of them at times, etc. But other than that, they are just peachy financially. They have even prepaid all funeral expenses. It is one thing to have someone help by auditing your accounts (and finding no issues). It is another to be humiliated by having your daughter declared you incompetent and then giving you whatever allowance SHE thinks is okay, out of the money you worked your entire life to secure.

The thing is, there is very little money as motivation for my sister; we really don't think that is why she is doing this. Their house is on the market for only $91,000; their life insurance policies are quite small. What scares me is that two years ago she revealed to me that she still holds a passionate resentment for my parents, especially my mother, over what she feels was mistreatment as a child. Now this sister has always been exceptionally quiet, and a conflict-avoider, so for her to speak out so passionately and so suddenly about issues from 45 years ago was quite a shock. I never observed the behaviors she spoke of; neither did my other two sisters, two of whom are younger than her (I am the oldest) and lived with her for years after I married. (The behaviors she described are actually very explainable to me, and I can see both why my sister wouldn't have appreciated what my mother did, and also, understand why Mom did it: it's just the social generational difference, where Mom put marriage as the only goal for a woman, and there was nothing ELSE for a woman; she was more blatant apparently with my sister than with me about that. But abusive? No. And at almost 60, my sister should have been able to understand this by now!) My NC sister moved out of home when she was 19, and lived all over the US, far away from my parents and all the family, all her life. She told me two years ago she was GLAD she lived too far away to visit them very much, because she also felt mistreated on her visits there as an adult, something the other three of us find to be an odd conclusion as well. And I was never fooled by the 'live too far away to visit' line, since she and her husband traveled on vacation every year and quite a bit of distance. It was clearly by choice that she only saw them for two or three days every three years or so. So I am concerned that there might be some kind of bizarre control issue/revenge subterfuge here. That's a terrible thing to think. What I had WANTED to think was that she encouraged Mom to move in with her because she had come around and wanted to fix things with Mom (from my sister's perspective; Mom has NO clue there is an issue..or, at least, Mom DIDN'T, maybe NOW she does). But since my sister doesn't even talk to Mom, avoids her unless she is taking her to the store or the doctors, it is hard to think that my sister's intention was to work things out for the better before it was too late. With her 'goldfish' treatment of them, and the desire to gain complete control when such is not necessary, seems to me like she wants to 'return a favor' by controlling THEM. And that is frightening.

Well, I had to vent. It's just another week until the 17th and hopefully we will get them home. I told them I'd take the train down, drive them home, and then work out a way to get back to Pennsylvania if they need me to do so. If my sister tries to delay their return, I guess it will be my turn to get pushy.

If anyone at DU has experience with such things, particularly the effects out of state of one state's adjudication of mentally incompetent, I'd be most appreciative. I don't have money for a lawyer; we are barely keeping our home and our heads above water as it is.

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My sister wants to have my parents declared completely mentally incompetent. (Original Post) DebJ Mar 2014 OP
First of all, TexasTowelie Mar 2014 #1
Thanks. And DebJ Mar 2014 #3
If only one parent is alive, the other one HAS to come live with one of us, no question. DebJ Mar 2014 #6
As a quiet non-confrontational person who does hold some resentment hollysmom Mar 2014 #2
Thank you for sharing your experiences. I do like the ideas. DebJ Mar 2014 #4
Itis funny, I never found the companion, a co-worker did hollysmom Mar 2014 #28
Life's too short to feel insulted. Especially when 'conversation' is typed! DebJ Mar 2014 #40
A doctor - or more than one - has to evaluate a person, then THEY - not your sister - would patricia92243 Mar 2014 #5
Unfortunately that is even more frightening. DebJ Mar 2014 #7
This message was self-deleted by its author Waiting For Everyman Mar 2014 #8
I'm in NC and although we didn't go through these issues mnhtnbb Mar 2014 #9
Whew. Just checked out one place in the area that gives some idea of cost online. DebJ Mar 2014 #14
There are places now that are set up more like apartments without mnhtnbb Mar 2014 #16
Thanks! I'll keep looking. n/t DebJ Mar 2014 #21
In my town we have discounted senior living. hollysmom Mar 2014 #29
Wouldn't a better compromise be to allow avebury Mar 2014 #10
If I can get them to come stay with me for a bit, we have a second cousin DebJ Mar 2014 #11
My first cousin just told me that her Mom (my mother's sister) lived with her oldest DebJ Mar 2014 #12
First of all............ mrmpa Mar 2014 #13
Thank you so very much. Such a perspective from a court takes a big load off my mind. DebJ Mar 2014 #15
ill email you mrmpa Mar 2014 #32
From what you have mentioned, your mother sounds like she really needs her social activities. Xyzse Mar 2014 #17
Absolutely. n/t DebJ Mar 2014 #22
first, you do like to talk, what a post, lol. i read it all. excellent info. seabeyond Mar 2014 #18
Hi seabeyond! DebJ Mar 2014 #25
I have no advice, only the reassurance that other families behave this way, also. hedgehog Mar 2014 #19
Yes hedgehog that is my perspective, and most of my sisters as well. DebJ Mar 2014 #24
See a lawyer experienced in estate planning. Brigid Mar 2014 #20
Brigid there are no funds available for that. DebJ Mar 2014 #23
Legal Aid Society? Brigid Mar 2014 #31
^this^ in combination with seabeyond's suggestion. Also, take note that it is not easy Tuesday Afternoon Mar 2014 #26
A few thoughts. Le Taz Hot Mar 2014 #27
Thanks! One of my sisters who isn't the NC one might ask for DebJ Mar 2014 #30
The state they are in might have a free legal aid group for the elderly. Lars39 Mar 2014 #33
Thanks. I just called A Place for Mom, you might have seen the commercials. DebJ Mar 2014 #34
That he served is what counts. Lars39 Mar 2014 #35
Have any papers been filed yet? rug Mar 2014 #36
I honestly don't know. Perhaps my sisters could ask the NC sister. DebJ Mar 2014 #37
In the morning call the clerk of the court of the county where she's staying. rug Mar 2014 #39
Thanks, I'll do that! n/t DebJ Mar 2014 #41
OH NOOOO! Just saw a ten day forecast with 1-3 inches on the 17th-19th at my parents' place DebJ Mar 2014 #38
It won't last long, the temps are not going to stay that long - temps are higher n/t hollysmom Mar 2014 #42
Thanks. I am really starting to freak. I am in a sweat, actually, my hands are soaked. DebJ Mar 2014 #43
I will keep this short and sweet... zabet Mar 2014 #44
Update Tuesday morning: I called the clerk of the county court. DebJ Mar 2014 #45
A DUer asked that I update the status of this. Here's the current status quo. DebJ Mar 2014 #46

TexasTowelie

(111,292 posts)
1. First of all,
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 03:27 AM
Mar 2014

your sister is a saint if she is taking care of her mother-in-law and both of your parents at the same time.

That being said, I sense that she feels she may have lost control of her life and her only way to re-establish that control is by taking control of your parents financial affairs. This will quickly lead to more manipulation by her against your parents and against the remainder of your family.

I've been through the wringer over the past couple of years as my father passed away and we had to dispose of his estate. Everybody in the family felt manipulated at one point or another and I was grateful when the house finally sold and there was no more legal connection amongst us. It is going to take years for some of the things that were said and done are settled.

I recommend keeping your sister away from providing any further care for your parents for more than a few days at a time a couple of times per year. She most likely is keeping a list of the services that she is rendering to your parents and will be presenting the list with a request for payment when she feels the timing is appropriate.

All in all though, your parents are in their 80s so it is past the time when the discussions regarding the end of life needed to occur. Have the wills and other documents been updated? There may still be time to make adjustments, but some attorneys might be hesitant if there are questions about whether your parents are of sound mind. What will happen if only one parent is alive (living arrangements)? If that parent has to move in with one of the children, how would that child be reimbursed (especially if providing personal hygiene care). I know those are tough things to discuss, but I bring them up from personal experience.

ETA: Don't mean to be a downer and I hope you find a successful resolution.

DebJ

(7,699 posts)
3. Thanks. And
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 03:49 AM
Mar 2014

yes she is already keeping a list of expenses; she has been doing this for her mother-in-law for awhile.

There is a will, and one of my other sisters, the youngest, is named as executress. My mother has always told us of updates over the phone, and sent us so many copies of all her papers that most of us threw most of them away; she'd send them every year or two and after twenty years, it got to be just too much paper. Mom was very open about it; she didn't want the burden of previous generations and the difficulties she had faced with her own sisters to move down to yet another generation.

The NC sister has verbalized in recent years quite a few times that she has a big gripe still burning inside her because my mother had, at one point in her wills, given everything to my youngest sister, for about a ten-year period. Now, frankly, I didn't care. Our family has never had much of anything, and my hope was just that my parents would be able to care for themselves, since prior generations had not been able to manage that, and coming up with burial expenses was a huge burden. I was always of the opinion that after 18, you are on your own, and your parents owe you nothing more, but you owe THEM when age or need arises. Just MHO. Our family has a genetic disorder (Marfins) that has impacted my mother, the NC sister, and the youngest sister as well, and the youngest sister, the worst. Furthermore, over the ten years that everything was left to the youngest sister, that youngest sister was divorcing an extremely abusive husband, and was on her own trying to make ends meet with medical bills, etc. The youngest sister is also a mirror-reflection of my mother, physically. So I could understand my mother's concerns for my sister's health, her lack of a life partner to help her, (and her unjustified guilt for giving her the Marfans' genes), and also, I could understand her natural connection with the child that looked like a clone of herself. But my NC sister, who has been married to the same man since age 19 or so, had only one child who has been independent for more than 10 years, and has 5 rental properties now, was infuriated by these conditions in the will. Now, take note that my mother changed her will over ten years ago now to have everything divided among us equally. But the NC sister still absolutely SEETHES over the former arrangements in the will, now long-changed. When all is said and done, even if both parents were to depart this life this year, that wouldn't amount to more than $25,000 apiece, if that, so really,who cares? Apparently, my NC sister does. She gets furious when she sees Mom sent one of us a check for $30. (Although we have rarely cashed those checks, LOL.)
So this, too, makes my husband and I a bit concerned about her new-found desire to have Mom living in close approximation, after a lifetime of avoiding Mom. Isn't it funny how people WITH money are the ones most concerned about it? I am often quite grateful that my life afforded the perspective of what really matters in life: divorce and the costs of raising a son with bipolar disorder and an absent, uncooperative abusive father (and he will need financial help forever, I can't afford to die myself) ripped what little I had ever earned away, being sold or pawned.... and hey, I am HAPPY...with every hug, every hello, every sunshine-filled day, and every night that Thank You God there is still a roof over my head, and my husband's CKD has let him live another day. I am HAPPY. She has spent the last several decades punishing herself with anger over things that she needs to respond to differently, for her OWN sake.

I never thought our family would end up with horror tales like this. Now I have to work even harder than my Mom did to try to see that my two children don't face this crap. Actually, since I have nothing but 500 history books and a negative net worth, I guess I have succeeded already, LOL!

Thanks again. It is helpful just to hear 'I've been through this'.

DebJ

(7,699 posts)
6. If only one parent is alive, the other one HAS to come live with one of us, no question.
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 04:25 AM
Mar 2014

Mom is wheelchair bound, and Dad needs some help himself. But we are concerned he would insist on living on his own up in the WV hills at the bottom of a hill where no one will even see him. But maybe not. He's not really a loner; he just likes to perceive himself that way, but he is obnoxiously sociable in public with strangers, LOL.

Us sisters have never considered mutually making some decision as to reimbursement of expenses if the parent were living with us and requiring extensive personal hygiene care. That probably would be a good thing to do, but I don't see it happening right now. Two of the sisters, as I explained in another post, would never be able to take care of either parent nor both parents, but I could see, if my parents were to move in with me, that we could have such discussions with the three of us, so that if I felt I needed some reimbursement, I could talk to them about it. The three of us never thought about it, and don't really care if we get a dime anyway. The NC sister has worked out on her own a highly-detailed system for documenting her expenses, and it does incorporate some reimbursement for her time driving them, etc. I don't think my other two sisters know that, but I also don't think any of us cares, or would feel 'stolen' from. If my parents do end up deciding to move to NC, however, I will mention that the NC sister should have some compensation, and that if we told her that and discussed it, that would prevent problems later on. Thank you very much!

I'm home all day anyway, and my husband is high-maintenance in many ways....so much so, our marriage just wouldn't work if I worked out of the home at this point except maybe part-time. It never occurred to me that it might be 'fair' to be reimbursed for physical care of a parent. It was just a matter of duty. But I do know, from the experience of other relatives, how exhausting and demanding that is. I'm not sociable like my parents; I live a very quiet life, so I wouldn't be giving up anything. I do recognize though that I would need to have some sociable, relaxing times away from the work to keep on going. Being paid for the health care, though, I don't know. I guess I'd have to live it awhile to feel that. My parents always did all they could for me; returning that to them is just a necessity out of my love for them. Just like how I was with my own children. There is no question; you just do it; and you WANT to, no matter how difficult, because your heart won't allow any other option.

hollysmom

(5,946 posts)
2. As a quiet non-confrontational person who does hold some resentment
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 03:47 AM
Mar 2014

I can recognize my own issue with writing letters to people after I see them. That is a non-confrontational move. The thing I don't understand is why you parents are living with your sister instead of anyone else.

I can also see some solutions to some of the problems - like getting your Mother head phones so she can listen to TV and not bother anyone else.

As the daughter who lived closest to my parents, I had the responsibility of taking care of them since I was in my late 30's and still married. Much like when my Mother-in-law was dying I was the one who visited her twice a week and talked to her on the phone every night for over an hour. Yet when my parents got ill, my husband resented my visiting them even though their house was on my way home from work and the traffic was usually bad, so no big deal dripping by a few times a week to help my Mom take care of my Dad, who was in late stages of Parkinson's. After my mother died, I tried to talk her into moving in with me and she loved my neighbors we would throw parties and invite each others over to the houses and have impromptu dinners in my back yard (with the neighbors on each side when we were all cooking at the same time, just bring your food over and we would share. - the last of the really good neighbors, but she was determined to die in her house.

Here is the thing, - you can't say it is a little money if your patents have 2100 a month after bills - that adds up. One way to control it is to take official responsibility, so money can be a thing, but still, why do your parents live with her instead of one of the other children?
Now, when my mom refused to move in with me and I was working and divorced, I hired a companion to drive her to hair cuts and eat lunch with every day. It worked out well because after the stroke, my mother lost English, but remember Polish and the companion could speak to her in Polish. So, maybe that is the other solution - hire a companion for your parent have to take them where they need to go and not to be stuck in the house.

I hope this helps, it is hard when you don't know the people, my solutions worked for me, maybe they will inspire some different ideas from you.

DebJ

(7,699 posts)
4. Thank you for sharing your experiences. I do like the ideas.
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 04:11 AM
Mar 2014

My parents are just visiting, not living there. They went to both visit, and to avoid the snows that pile up so heavily in WV where they live. They were not intending to stay more than a week or two, but as you know, the snow has been non-stop this year. They are only staying through the next week because the Illinois sister bought airline tickets to NC for March 11.

I invited my mother to stay with me; she's been best friends with me for over a decade. I'd like the company as I am also home full-time. Our town has twice the people of my sister's small town, and still has indoor shopping malls which are better for a wheelchair. Everything here is 15 minutes away. But my house is extremely small, and we lack the funds to make it handicap-accessible for her wheelchair. We wouldn't care if they had renovations done at all, but we are helpless to do so out of our own meager finances. My mother did mention in a recent phone call that she would be happier living with me because we have been such good friends, and was asking herself why she didn't think of that before. At the time she decided to perhaps move in with the NC sister, Mom said my house was too small. My other sisters were comforted (initially) by the fact that my sister used to be a nurse (30 years ago for two years, before she married a Witness). I was heart-broken but wanted Mom to have what she wanted, and I had visited Mom many times a year every year, and every month and even more than that over the past year. I felt my mother deserved to have some time with the daughter who had all but abandoned her, before it was too late.

The youngest sister's house is even smaller than mine, and has some type of mold problem that even professionals have been unable to find...they said the next step is to start tearing out all of the walls. The smell is really bad, and my sister is constantly impacted with sinus infections that turn into migraines. She can't fix the house, and she can't sell the house. Also, I love her dearly, but she has NO patience, and she just could not accomodate them. Also, her health issues are rapidly mounting.

The Illinois sister's husband has severe depression and alcohol problems. He can't handle company of any type for any duration of time. She had two family Thanksgivings at her house over the years, and her husband would only be present for the meal, then he would have to run and hide. There is no way that my parents could live there.

I wrote the letter explaining my/our position, in order to refute each of her points about my parents. I wanted to clearly let her know, in a professional sort of tone but not unfriendly, where I stood, and that I had discussed this with all sisters because each of us finds it difficult to be objective, so we need all of us to have input.I presented the facts as if I were presenting them to a judge. I wanted to convince her, if possible, and if not, let her know our reasoning. Which might prove to have been a mistake, ultimately, by showing our cards; time will tell. I hope not.

There are definitely expenses incurred when caring for an elderly person; my sister's heating bills have gone through the roof. That wouldn't be much of an issue in my house, since my husband's CKD now keeps our thermostat at 76 anyway. My parents buy all of their own food and supplies and wouldn't want it any other way; independence is very much a part of their self-perspective and their needs.

Hiring a companion is a great idea, when you can find one. My mother's sister has been searching for one for over a year now, just to drive her to the malls in her own vehicle twice a week, and just can't find anyone, and she lives in a suburb half-way between Baltimore and DC, with hundreds of thousands of people in the area. But we might have better luck with my mother. We wanted her to check on the possibility of a visiting nurse or somesuch through Medicare, but she would not consider that at all. But we might try that again, too.

Ultimately, I hope to get Mom home, and then get her to come stay with me awhile. She was very nervous about her initial 'decision' to move to NC, and I told her to go and try it out before deciding (because we already had some questions about it ourselves.) She felt forced to just decide on the spot, and was much relieved when I said try it first. Then either you will like it and feel relieved and happy, or you won't and then you can decide to do something else.

Thanks again. Just 'hearing' another voice is very consoling.

hollysmom

(5,946 posts)
28. Itis funny, I never found the companion, a co-worker did
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 02:01 PM
Mar 2014

She gave me this small personal ad from a local newspaper, I have no idea where she found it,. I went to agencies to find one. I tired word of mouth to find one. The big thing was to interview them all. And then there was this ad, so I invited this woman over and fell in love with her. Ditto for my sister finding a nurse for her mother in law. She was a paraplegic and my sister could not find an nurse that was pleasant (not anti-nurse, please don't misunderstand, this was back breaking work and for 12 hours a day) and then she saw a small ad in the paper and met this woman who was extremely religious and very strong, not a nurse, but had the touch. She worked with them for years until the M-I-L had to be hospitalized. So you never know where help is coming from. It is important they have someone interview then, because I have heard lots of not so good stories, but when you get a good one, it is so worth it.

I did not realize your mother had physical challenges, so much for reading comprehension. That does make it a challenge where she can live and how she can get around, as does the condition of your father.

I so understand about the snow, I was ready to leave myself, but today I see grass peeking out from under the snow. I would be more worried about the water in West Virginia, even though I know it was not everywhere.

Finally, in my town we have free transportation locally through a charity for seniors. There is a small bus that travels around 3 times a week for food shopping and a car service for doctor appointments. There is also car service for churches and senior socials like Bingo or other social things in the town rec center. There are also leaf raking and snow clearing services for seniors. maybe someone can contact her town and find out what is available there. Note: we pay a lot of taxes for these services, so not all towns could afford it

I hope you didn't feel insulted. I understand your venting, there was just not enough information to make useful suggestions.

patricia92243

(12,590 posts)
5. A doctor - or more than one - has to evaluate a person, then THEY - not your sister - would
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 04:12 AM
Mar 2014

declare them incompetent.

DebJ

(7,699 posts)
7. Unfortunately that is even more frightening.
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 04:33 AM
Mar 2014

My sister took my parents to a doctor in NC. According to my sister, the doctor pulled her aside and said that because my Mom has lost a lot of weight, the doctor would only 'allow' my mother to live with my sister if my mother begins to gain weight. In other words, after one 15 minute visit, the doctor was stating that he had full authority to immediately institutionalize my mother. Like I said, NC frightens me. My mother has lost weight because she has been very depressed about the radical changes she has had to face over the last year, including the loss of many of her friends. This has suppressed her appetite a great deal. We are encouraging her to take an antidepressant /appetite stimulant that the doctor prescribed, but she doesn't take it consistently.

I was appalled with the way my NC sister described this physician. Yes, elderly are abused and doctors need to be aware and concerned, but for him to state that after one 15 minute appointment with very little conversation was ............ I am speechless. I fear a God complex here, which I have experienced myself in the past.

He already feels the right to be completely in control, and yet he has asked no questions to determine causes, nor tried to find out what the patient needs (socialization). So I guess my NC sister has that one all sewed up, huh? Since then, my mother has seen the doctor on two more occasions for a bladder infection.

Response to DebJ (Original post)

mnhtnbb

(31,318 posts)
9. I'm in NC and although we didn't go through these issues
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 07:01 AM
Mar 2014

with a parent here, my husband consulted an attorney in Florida
where his dad lived after he secretly married his long time girl friend
at the age of 93--his 4th wife. The attorney told him that as
long as his father could zip his pants on his own it would be practically
impossible to have him declared incompetent. My husband's sister
told the wife, who became furious, and long story short, she
got my husband's father to change his will, get rid of his trust,
and essentially write him out of the will. Cost the family LOTS
of money--millions were at stake--that went to the feds for
taxes when he died because the trust had been abolished.

So, turns out my husband was right--but the State of Florida
could have cared less.

I think what you may have to fear more is the motivation of your sister
in NC than the courts in NC.

If I were in your shoes, I'd get your parents out of the NC sister's house
and figure out a living arrangement for them where they can get the assistance
they need. I'm surprised no one on this thread has mentioned assisted living.
You might want to look into possible places for them, within a reasonable
drive of your house, and see if you can find a place that will take them which
they can afford. It would provide the socialization your mom needs and
get them away from the clutches of your sister in NC.

Good luck!

DebJ

(7,699 posts)
14. Whew. Just checked out one place in the area that gives some idea of cost online.
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 08:18 AM
Mar 2014

A fee of between $96000 and $140,000 up front, plus $1700 per month per apartment or cottage.
So they would have to pay several thousand dollars more than what they could sell their current home for,
then give the place over 50% of their monthly income. I'm still looking though!

hollysmom

(5,946 posts)
29. In my town we have discounted senior living.
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 02:07 PM
Mar 2014

I was told I could not move into them because there was a worth limit and I had too much net worth. They are apartments with an attendant in the lobby and can have food delivery, are made wheelchair accessible and have free senior bus service at the door.

You should be able to google senior living on the internet and see what is near there.

avebury

(10,946 posts)
10. Wouldn't a better compromise be to allow
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 07:03 AM
Mar 2014

your parents to move into a decent Senior Living Center? I know back home there was one with several levels of care from private apartments up on to more and more levels of assistance. This would allow your parents get out from under your sister's thumb and allow them to be around other people and your Mother could get all of the socialization she needs. And your Dad would not have to worry about stuff like shoveling in the winter. A lot of these types of facilities have a lot of activities for their residents.

Is there a way that you can have your parents come to visit you for a little while (enough time to circumvent your sister's plans, have a chance to independently assess their capabilities and get them to give you power of attorney). You can tell your sister that you need to spend a little more time with your parents in order to be able to "help" her and, once you have them, do what you can do to help them instead. The key is to get them away from her first. Such a visit may allow you and your other sisters a chance to do what will be in your parents best interest without steam rolling them at the same time. I know a friend whose brother pushed her parents into moving in with him in another state and they are miserable trapped there with the son using up their money.

DebJ

(7,699 posts)
11. If I can get them to come stay with me for a bit, we have a second cousin
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 07:56 AM
Mar 2014

here in Pa about 45 minutes away who moved into a community with various levels of assisted living depending upon need. We could go visit them and then maybe get Mom and Dad to see the inside of such a place. My cousin suggested herself that this would be a good idea. Thanks for reminding me; this is certainly worth a more aggressive look than simply suggesting it to my parents. We could try to get some hard numbers, for example. I think there are quite a few places in our area.

My understanding is that this can be expensive. My NC sister's mother-in-law went into one for 60 days, and they took $1200 a month out of her $1204 income, and that was in NC where things are a bit less expensive, in general. She was given a furnished room, and down the hall was a room where meals were served, and snacks were available 24-7, and there was a TV in there. But she didn't need assistance with getting about the place, out of bed, bathroom use, or any of those types of things. They did do her laundry. There was some type of transportation available for the seniors living there, but I don't know if that was part of the specific arrangements of that facility, or if there was public transportation available for that. If if costs that much a person, in three years my parents would exhaust funds from a potential sale of their home. I don't think they would agree to that. Or, if they paid out of their pension and SS, it would take 80% of their monthly money. That said, I don't know what the real numbers are, so we should check it out.

My Mom would be fine living in an apartment-type arrangement, but my father would curl up in a ball and die. He'd never agree. That said, I don't know what the real numbers are, or the available options, so we should check it out.

Thanks for the idea!



DebJ

(7,699 posts)
12. My first cousin just told me that her Mom (my mother's sister) lived with her oldest
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 08:00 AM
Mar 2014

son for a few short years after their father died. This brother was/is an alcoholic with severe problems. He took all his mother's money, and then threw her out of the house when it was done. She died shortly thereafter.

mrmpa

(4,033 posts)
13. First of all............
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 08:14 AM
Mar 2014

Having worked in the Guardian Unit of a non-profit, only a Judge after hearing evidence from a Doctor, can declare someone mentally incompetent. As your parents are residents of another state. Yes they are residents of West Virginia, a declaration from their doctor(s) in West Virginia would probably have to be entered into evidence.

It's not easy to have someone declared mentally incompetent. Often guardianship is entered for medical care, financial care or both. Evidence has to be almost overwhelmingly against the individual. The rights of an individual are not lightly diminished by court(s) in these matters.

I'd like to suggest if I might that you find a non-profit in your area that has case management services for guardianship programs, they may be able to help.

Email me if you'd like.

DebJ

(7,699 posts)
15. Thank you so very much. Such a perspective from a court takes a big load off my mind.
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 08:20 AM
Mar 2014

'a non-profit that has case management services for guardianship programs'....what does that mean?

Xyzse

(8,217 posts)
17. From what you have mentioned, your mother sounds like she really needs her social activities.
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:59 AM
Mar 2014

That is what keeps a person sharp. Your sister, and the isolation placed on your mother is something that can create a decline.

I hope she gets back to that.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
18. first, you do like to talk, what a post, lol. i read it all. excellent info.
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:50 AM
Mar 2014

i think it sounds so fair and balanced trying to see all there is there. thank you for being so thorough in your writing. i have not experienced anything like this, but it was an interesting read. my father is 76. i cannot imagine, as i watch him age, being anything but respectful of him, as a man, as a human, as an elder.

my only thought in it all is, with you mom as she is, social, yet health issues and you father as he is... having to possibly do heavy lifting, selling the house anyway, why not a retirement community?

that sounds ideal for all of them. and it sounds like they have the money that will eb able to provide that. have access to someone being on top of their health.

keep us updated please. i am now invested in your story.

DebJ

(7,699 posts)
25. Hi seabeyond!
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 01:01 PM
Mar 2014

Yes I type about 120 wpm and that doesn't help my 'succinctness'. I have always admired Jefferson's gift, as I admire real artists, because I SOOO lack any talent in those areas, LOL.

Writing college papers was difficult for me because I had a hard time hacking 20 pages down to ten.

I used to say that I wouldn't need a grave marker, because my remains could be found in the quiet of the cemetery
because you would hear my lips still flapping way into eternity!

hedgehog

(36,286 posts)
19. I have no advice, only the reassurance that other families behave this way, also.
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 12:04 PM
Mar 2014

Short story - widowed father living in his house with granddaughter attending college in same town. Three other grandchildren in town stopping by several times a month for dinner and conversation. I talk with him on the phone several times a week. He's fine, but another daughter living far away has decided he must be moved to sheltered care at once.

It may not be much consolation, but old people tend to die at some point, and most would rather die suddenly in their own home than slowly in a nursing home. Maybe the best thing we can do for our parents is to allow them to live in peace and die as they wish.

DebJ

(7,699 posts)
24. Yes hedgehog that is my perspective, and most of my sisters as well.
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 12:58 PM
Mar 2014

Let them live in peace and die as they wish.

DebJ

(7,699 posts)
23. Brigid there are no funds available for that.
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 12:56 PM
Mar 2014

Each of my sisters and myself have faced some extreme circumstances with health and employment in recent years that has placed each of us in a position of barely keeping a roof over our heads, literally. Two of us have husbands who lost their jobs pre-Medicare age by just a few years and now every dime is scraped to pay for health insurance. For example, as I have posted before, our premiums are $1525 a month. We all still have mortgages as well. Every asset has already been drained; down to one car per family. No vacations, ever; entertainment is just visiting a friend on the weekend or TV. Thought of ditching the tv but the rates are rigged so as to be even more expensive with just phone and internet. Now selling whatever we have that we can do without; for example a friend was giving away a sofa so we took her sofa and are going to sell our sofa/loveseat. When I spring clean, part of the process will be locating anything that might be of sellable value. Draining the last small 403B next month (with a tax penalty of course) because termites have been chomping away at our home for more than two years, and we could not come up with the $2000 it costs to treat them. We just realized with relief that there was, thank God, this one small 403B left over. It will fix the leaking chimney too that has damaged the living room ceiling, and then, that's it; reserves will be gone. What's that saying? When it rains, it pours? Whatever can go wrong, will, at the worst possible moment? When incidents are spaced out over time you can recover, but we've been slammed right and left.

Brigid

(17,621 posts)
31. Legal Aid Society?
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 02:16 PM
Mar 2014

Or maybe there is a law school nearby that offers a free legal clinic. Try goggling "free legal services" for your state and see what you find.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
26. ^this^ in combination with seabeyond's suggestion. Also, take note that it is not easy
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 01:18 PM
Mar 2014

to have someone declared incompetent. I do not think, from what I have read, that your Mother meets the criteria for incompetency.

See a lawyer, first, by yourself to learn what You should expect and then, perhaps you and your sisters should see another Lawyer together to make plans and have a map for how to go forward with the aging process.

Good luck and keep us updated.

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
27. A few thoughts.
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 01:51 PM
Mar 2014

I take care of my 92-year-old widowed Great Aunt (actually, I tell her she's a MAGNIFICENT Aunt) and have dealt with some of the issues (not the one with meddling siblings) regarding the elderly.

You mentioned a Will. It's important that the Will be in a Trust. A Will is still subject to probate which means the state can tie it up for months after their passing. A Trust avoids probate. (I am not a lawyer but the Trust information is easily verifiable.)

See if you can get your parents to give you Power of Attorney for Health and Financial purposes.

There are many senior facilities that do not charge $3,000 to $6,000 a month for care. Make sure you look at all the options in your area, especially in more rural areas. I just visited a facility in which the resident, living in the Independent Living facility who only pays $695.00 a month and that includes her utilities. She does pay for her food and phone. Your parents may be eligible for subsidies so you might want to look further in this area.

As someone above mentiond, see if there is a TRUSTED person that can come in and help them out with daily activities such as cooking, cleaning, laundry, shopping and running errands. One caveat: They MUST be a TRUSTED person that comes highly recommended. One of the most common scams on the elderly are "companions" who, within 6 months, have talked the elderly out of their property, cars and life savings. I've seen that happen and there's nothing more tragic.

The point is YOU need to take action ASAP before NC sister ties up everything and no intervention is possible.

Keep us posted on this situation.

DebJ

(7,699 posts)
30. Thanks! One of my sisters who isn't the NC one might ask for
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 02:14 PM
Mar 2014

Power of Attorney while she is visiting them. Mom and maybe Dad too, but especially Mom, is feeling really pushed and bullied by the NC sister at this point, though, so that might be too difficult a topic to broach just this moment. The sister who would ask is the one who is the named executrix of the will. And she recently took a course on Wills as part of her academic program (she's trying to change careers because her declining health is making her work of 20+ years more strain than her body can handle...it has been an on-your-feet-on=hard=concrete job.

You just reminded me that at one point a few years ago, my mother was encouraging her sister to move up to WV to be closer to her. Mom found out all about local small apartment complexes that cater to the elderly and infirm, with very reasonable rates. Mom would move tomorrow, but Dad will be a total block-head about it and blatantly refuse, and Mom has always caved in to Dad; she sees that as her position as 'wife'. But it is certainly worth bringing up again. I guess I need to know more about Dad's feelings on this topic. He doesn't talk as much as Mom does, and not on sensitive topics. Maybe one of my sisters can feel him out while they are down there.

Thanks again!

Lars39

(26,093 posts)
33. The state they are in might have a free legal aid group for the elderly.
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 09:19 PM
Mar 2014

It sounds like your parents' rights need to be protected. Stress to your parents to not sign anything at all while they are there. Also, was your mom or dad a veteran? There are VA programs to help with care and living expenses sometimes. Best wishes.

DebJ

(7,699 posts)
34. Thanks. I just called A Place for Mom, you might have seen the commercials.
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:10 PM
Mar 2014

They mentioned the VA possibiliities; I will have to check with Mom and Dad to see if they explored that option.
He did serve during the Korean War, although not on the lines (he was a medic in Germany).

Lars39

(26,093 posts)
35. That he served is what counts.
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:27 PM
Mar 2014

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but power of attorneys can be revoked. In TN it is as easy as having a new one signed.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
36. Have any papers been filed yet?
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:43 PM
Mar 2014

If your sister is appointed a temporary guardian of their persons she would have the legal authority to prevent them from leaving on the 17th.

DebJ

(7,699 posts)
37. I honestly don't know. Perhaps my sisters could ask the NC sister.
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:46 PM
Mar 2014

One just arrived there tonight, and another is taking the plane there tomorrow.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
39. In the morning call the clerk of the court of the county where she's staying.
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:59 PM
Mar 2014

They can look it up based on your mother's name or your sister's name.

You and your sisters as immediate family should be served a citation as well. Basic due process requires notice and an opportunity to be heard.

Your sister doesn't have much time to file. She may be bluffing.

DebJ

(7,699 posts)
38. OH NOOOO! Just saw a ten day forecast with 1-3 inches on the 17th-19th at my parents' place
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:59 PM
Mar 2014

Last edited Tue Mar 11, 2014, 07:58 AM - Edit history (1)

in West Virginia. This had better NOT happen. She needs to get home!


ON EDIT: FORECAST CHANGED OVERNIGHT! SNOW GONE! HALLELUIAH!

DebJ

(7,699 posts)
43. Thanks. I am really starting to freak. I am in a sweat, actually, my hands are soaked.
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:42 PM
Mar 2014

I am so very, very appreciative of the advice I have been given by all the DUers here.
Especially the last bit about calling the court house. I wish it were morning!

Another tidbit making me nervous was that yesterday evening Mom told me that my sister
Cheryl took Dad to the department of motor vehicles to help him in replacing his lost WEST VIRGINIA
license. My concern is that she had Dad sign papers for a NC license. I asked Mom, calmly, if that
is what they were doing, and she said NO, of course not. But I really don't think a North Carolina
DMV/MVA could do anything else BUT issue a NC license...which could be used as proof of residency
for my sister's court claim.

I feel like I am in a Twilight Zone episode.

zabet

(6,793 posts)
44. I will keep this short and sweet...
Tue Mar 11, 2014, 06:57 AM
Mar 2014

DO NOT let your parents be turned into a financial asset for your sister. IF she gains control, she can put them into a nursing home against their will. Being as this sister is still bent over a will change that is years later a moot point, money is her motivator. If they live with her, and she has control, she gets ALL of their income to do as she pleases with.....which may not include taking care of their needs. I live in NC....born and raised here. I see this 'elderly parent financial harassment' as a common thing here.

DebJ

(7,699 posts)
45. Update Tuesday morning: I called the clerk of the county court.
Tue Mar 11, 2014, 09:09 AM
Mar 2014

I was told no papers have as yet been filed for my parents. I asked if out of state children of the parents would be
notified PRIOR to a decision by the court, and was assured that yes, we would be. That of itself is a relief.
Thanks rug!

DebJ

(7,699 posts)
46. A DUer asked that I update the status of this. Here's the current status quo.
Tue Mar 25, 2014, 01:26 PM
Mar 2014

Current plan is that my sister in NC will bring my parents home to WV on Wednesday. My sister will drive them back in my parents' car, and then on Friday her husband will drive up to pick her up and take her back home. Once again, my controlling sister made all the plans and just told my mother about it, as if Mom is 5 years old. It's one thing for my sister and her husband to figure out what works best for them, and then say to my parents "This is what works for us. Does that work for you?" But over and over, with each communication, there is no input or consideration of my parents as having working brains. This really upsets Mom (and frankly, she should be upset...she is still being treated as if she was a pet goldfish, put on the shelf unless you need to take it to the vet or something.)

Mom said that my sister didn't even ask them how long they wanted to stay in WV, or if they wanted to stay in WV or return back to NC. But my sister did tell ME that she hopes that my parents will ask to go right home. However, they do have a bid on the sale of their house and might need to stay there awhile to get some home inspections done and other things taken care of.

My sister also said in her latest email: "Let's not plan to do an incompetency hearing unless we absolutely have to. It is a lawsuit where the person named has to sit thru a trial about them. This would be too stressful and expensive for everyone. Also it would pobably have to be done in WV for now and then NC later. So far mom and dad are cooperating with most of what they should be doing. "

I gagged at the 'cooperating with most of what they should be doing'. She means, cooperating with what SHE thinks they should be doing. Remember, she told me that in her opinion, Mom has been mentally ill her entire life. Yep, that's how she raised four children who are all drug-free (except for my cigs), responsible hard-working people who have all earned years of accolades on the job and raised their own families now, kept a house spotless, managed the finances on my Dad's blue collar and her pink-collar (negligible) pay, and managed to end up 25 years in retirement with no bills except utilities, etc, a car paid for, a home paid for, and $2 grand a month every month left over. Along the way, my mother has made friends easily and in copious volumes where ever she was. Nothing crazy at all. A very successful average American life.

Her choice of words indicates to me that at least one of my other sisters had indicated agreement on an incompetency hearing. I know that must have been my 'baby' sister (she's 49), because she said at one point that safety and continuation of life comes above my parents' happiness. I talked to her on the phone about that, and gently indicated that it would be cruelly selfish to, for one example the controlling sister gave, force a feeding tube down Mom's throat since she isn't eating enough, when she clearly has stated she doesn't want any prolonging of things. Mom also has spent some very horrific weeks and months in hospitals over the course of her life (just one example: hit by a drunk at age 60, shock trauma 8 weeks, 8 major surgeries, 11 complete blood transfusions, etc now in a wheelchair ever after). She has said repeatedly for years she'd rather die than be in a hospital, and she is not kidding at all. My youngest sister just can't get past losing them, and would do ANYTHING just to keep them alive, and I got her to understand for awhile that her thoughts are about her OWN needs, not about the dignity and choice and happiness and even physical comfort of our parents. But then she visited the controlling sister, and her own fears and desires ruled, it seemed. Well, she is the 'baby' sister. The other sister was from the beginning of the same opinion that I am, that my parents should make their own choices, so i don't think she supported this.

I think my NC controlling sister backed down because I pretty well proved she wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court regarding their finances. Medical issues are always a who-knows-what-would-happen, because there are always different courses of treatment, differences of opinion, and how to handle the rights of the person who says DON'T do that to me let me die....

Just today, I got an opportunity to speak to Mom on the phone without having anyone else but my Dad at home. I explained to her that if she were to ever sign away her rights, she should understand she can't just get them back...which is how my sister said she would explain it, that they could just get the guardianship revoked just because they asked...that once a guardian is assigned, a judge would have to decide to give them their rights back. I used the example of my son with bipolar signing himself into a hospital last spring, being told if he signed himself in he could sign himself out...no...if you sign yourself in, you can ask that they sign you out...but your asking is neither here nor there...the hospital decides after you sign yourself in. Sometimes they seem to decide they need another day of billing your insurance company (A hospital in Baltimore refuses to check out patients on Friday, Saturday, or Sunday...not out of patient need, but because 'they just don't do that'...and bill for two extra unneccessary days at $1500 a day (rates from 15 years ago). Mom said there's no way she'd sign over anything. I said okay Mom, I just wanted you to know how these things work.

Trying to make my Mom feel better (she knew I was talking about the NC sister), I pointed out how it was very necessary for my sister to get her Mother-in-law, who also lives there, to sign over her finances. In her case, that woman would take you for every penny and then complain when you ran dry. She lived with one daughter for ten years and never gave her a dime, but increased the heating bills by $100 a month in winter with a 24/7 space heater, lights and TV on all night every night, and constant demands to be chaufferred to doctors several times a week...in YOUR car, your gas, etc. So my sister and brother-in-law only allowed her to move back in with them if she agreed to sign over control of finances. That woman has a lot of issues (she was going to the doctor several times a week because she was getting oxycodone or oxycontin from four different doctors and abusing it....former alcoholic, etc.) In her case, signing over finances was appropriate... after all those doctor visits, she wouldn't even pay the copays. Now, my sister takes care of that, and that is necessary, for HER. My point was, to make Mom feel better, that this is what my sister was used to having to do for the MIL, so she might be misapplying it here.

So, I said, Mom, this sister might be concerned about what it would cost her to have you live there, but I know you and Dad are overly generous, so maybe just get an agreement up front about you reimbursing her for her costs, etc., so everyone knows the story if you decide to move there. Mom said she had done that last year, before they ever went to even see my sister's house, saying she would pay them $500 a month. That should certainly cover things for the use of one bedroom and a bathroom. My parents eat out one big meal in a restaurant every day and buy small stuff for nibbling at home, so food isn't an issue. They have their own vehicle, so when they go out, my sister drives their car, with their gas, insurance, etc, so that is not an issue (it does take time however, of course.) So my sister wouldn't have the concerns with my parents that she has had with her MIL. Once again, I think its just a control freak issue here, and who knows the psychology lurking beneath that. I do know my sister and her husband essentially ran their son out of their home because they were so controlling; he left the day after he graduated from high school and didn't barely speak to them for years. They were not invited to his wedding, either (which was just done in a chapel with two friends). Some of that controlling is their religious proclivities.

So, we'll see what happens next. Like my sisters, I am concerned about my parents staying in WV without someone there to lift Mom in and out of her wheelchair. Dad's back has been bothering him for two weeks now and that began after he lifted her out of the chair. I'll have to see what assistance we could get for them, and try to talk them into at least considering it. I know there medigap insurance lists home health aides as being covered (in whatever fashion that might be). I'm going there this weekend (barring another snow storm that keeps them from coming home), so I can help, but that's just for two days.

If more develops, I'll update the thread.

On Edit: I did check out several assisted living facilities. But so far, every one would take every single penny my parents have and leave them with absolutely nothing, including no money to cover medical deductibles.

It also looks like perhaps they would have to refile their will in NC if they move there. I'm still working on that issue. My youngest sister interprets the law document she sent me differently than I did. More work needed there, or this sister who thinks she is executrix will find out she might not be. From what I read, once they become NC residents, and they would have only personalty to disburse, no realty, they would be considered intestate.

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