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Game of Thrones 4.4 "Oathkeeper" (Original Post) NewJeffCT Apr 2014 OP
I'm trying to remember from the books about Bran TorchTheWitch Apr 2014 #1
I was disappointed NewJeffCT Apr 2014 #2
in the show Daario became the leader of the Second Sons TorchTheWitch Apr 2014 #3
Yes, no Stormcrows on the show NewJeffCT Apr 2014 #4
no they still have to go through the wall WolverineDG Apr 2014 #7
I think Sam already found them NewJeffCT Apr 2014 #8
I'm confuzzled WolverineDG Apr 2014 #38
They've already gone through the Wall TorchTheWitch Apr 2014 #9
I dont' know why I had it in my head WolverineDG Apr 2014 #39
I suspect NewJeffCT Apr 2014 #5
Well, it is now a race, since the word is out that Bran and brother are still alive. Baitball Blogger Apr 2014 #6
Basically, a bunch of nothing happens to Bran after Osha/Rickon leave Mike Daniels Apr 2014 #18
That's pretty much what I remember TorchTheWitch Apr 2014 #20
It's on. Baitball Blogger Apr 2014 #10
Missendei and Grey Worm NewJeffCT Apr 2014 #11
What was the form of crucifixion? Baitball Blogger Apr 2014 #12
Isn't that the guy NewJeffCT Apr 2014 #13
Yep. When Roose found that Theon hadn't killed the boys Mike Daniels Apr 2014 #19
I'm really disappointed with his name change TorchTheWitch Apr 2014 #21
Vargo would have been nice NewJeffCT Apr 2014 #22
well, I can see why they didn't have him lisp TorchTheWitch Apr 2014 #24
Given how the mutiny thread ends in the books Mike Daniels Apr 2014 #34
Oh, gross. The ghost rider has the baby. Baitball Blogger Apr 2014 #14
Which sword did Jaime give to B? Baitball Blogger Apr 2014 #15
His sword NewJeffCT Apr 2014 #16
So that's what happens to the babies warrior1 Apr 2014 #17
But, hey, if the frozen dead rot, and don't grow... Baitball Blogger Apr 2014 #23
Do the babies turn into wights, or do they turn into White Walkers? chrisa Apr 2014 #32
I hope the deviations from the book is successful. Vashta Nerada Apr 2014 #25
I always thought the White Walkers were using the babies TorchTheWitch Apr 2014 #27
In the books NewJeffCT Apr 2014 #41
Finally watched. OK show. Answered some book questions. Solly Mack Apr 2014 #26
I'm guessing the pointy head TorchTheWitch Apr 2014 #28
Wight is an old term NewJeffCT Apr 2014 #29
well, that's interesting TorchTheWitch Apr 2014 #30
Yes, it's confusing NewJeffCT Apr 2014 #31
So you think Locke's actions will serve to expose Roose's plot? (if only to Jon & Co.) (Spoilers) Solly Mack Apr 2014 #33
I have a feeling that the tv show won't have Jon and Bran meet TorchTheWitch May 2014 #44
I am afraid you might be right about that. Solly Mack May 2014 #49
So when will Lady Stoneheart appear? warrior1 Apr 2014 #35
last scene of episode 10 NewJeffCT Apr 2014 #36
thanks warrior1 Apr 2014 #37
that was just a guess on my part NewJeffCT Apr 2014 #40
New Ratings Record for Game of Thrones NewJeffCT Apr 2014 #42
If Game of Thrones took place on Facebook NewJeffCT May 2014 #43
I just realized with this episode that the White Walkers TorchTheWitch May 2014 #45
My daughter's a staff writer for Medievalists.net. A great website if you like GOT! riderinthestorm May 2014 #46
You've every right to proudly plug! OriginalGeek May 2014 #47
I know right?! Academic AND fun! Thanks for looking nt riderinthestorm May 2014 #48
I will definitely check it out NewJeffCT May 2014 #50

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
1. I'm trying to remember from the books about Bran
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 11:33 AM
Apr 2014

At this point anyway. I don't remember them finding any shelter after they left that tower, and Osha and Rickon left. I'm wondering if Coldhands comes into play at all, but I'm thinking not because in the show Bran just had a vision of where they were supposed to go, and he didn't appear to help Sam and Gilly either.

I'm starting to see a whole lot of changes from the books from this season so far. I'm kind of disappointed that there doesn't seem to be a Coldhands in the show since I'd hoped that in the books we'd find out who he was... I always thought he'd end up being Benjen Stark. But if the show is leaving out Coldhands that must mean that he's not anyone interesting and just some random dude from the Night's Watch.

I'm still bummed that Strong Belwas isn't going to be in the show. He was such a good character.

NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
2. I was disappointed
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 12:32 PM
Apr 2014

we didn't get Belwas, either. Maybe Daario or Grey Worm get poisoned instead?

I wonder if we'll get Brown Ben Plumm at all next year? They mentioned Second Sons in a recent episode...

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
3. in the show Daario became the leader of the Second Sons
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 12:47 PM
Apr 2014

and brought them to Dany's side. I would imagine that in the show he'll still be the leader of the Second Sons. I can't even recall how he ended up the leader of the Storm Crows in the books since even in the books he became the leader of the Second Sons and brought them over to Dany's side.

I still can't figure out what this shelter in the show is supposed to be with Bran and his group. Can they already have them in the cave with the three-eyed raven at this point all ready???

In a way I'm liking these changes from the books to the show... I don't think I'd be as interested in the show otherwise figuring I would know everything that's about to happen and at what point.



NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
4. Yes, no Stormcrows on the show
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 04:30 PM
Apr 2014

The books was Daario became the leader of the Stormcrows, and Brown Ben Plumm led the Second Sons after the Titan's Bastard got killed by Ser Barristan.

WolverineDG

(22,298 posts)
7. no they still have to go through the wall
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 08:13 PM
Apr 2014

Sam finds them about that point (I think) but doesn't tell Jon that Bran & Rickon are still alive. I hope I'm remembering the books right.

As for Coldhands, he can't be Benjen, as the greenseer says "they killed him long ago."

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
9. They've already gone through the Wall
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 08:32 PM
Apr 2014

The entrance/exit to/from the secret port that goes through the Wall is the well that brought Sam and Gilly to Bran's group. Bran's group left that shelter already presumably through that same port (they'd have to otherwise they'd have to go around or over the Wall). There's already been episodes that show Bran's group having already gotten on the north side of the wall. Just like with Sam and Gilly the show doesn't show anyone actually going through that port, they just arrive at their southern/northern destinations.

Well, I'm bummed that Coldhands seems to be some nobody of the Watch. It seemed rather significant that he was the only walking dead working for the other side.

WolverineDG

(22,298 posts)
39. I dont' know why I had it in my head
Mon Apr 28, 2014, 01:12 PM
Apr 2014

that they were still south of the Wall. And now that the script writers are putting in new scenes (with the approval I suppose of GRRM), who knows what's going to happen now?

NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
5. I suspect
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 06:52 PM
Apr 2014

that since D&D know something about the endgame of the story, Coldhands won't be Benjen. Maybe Bran will find out what happened to him through his newfound powers? (And, maybe he can reveal what happened at the Tower of Joy if Howland Reed is not available to do it?)

Baitball Blogger

(46,700 posts)
6. Well, it is now a race, since the word is out that Bran and brother are still alive.
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 07:29 PM
Apr 2014

And they're all going in the same direction.

Mike Daniels

(5,842 posts)
18. Basically, a bunch of nothing happens to Bran after Osha/Rickon leave
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 10:22 PM
Apr 2014

Until he gets to his major plot point in the books. I guess, as with Theon, they had to find a way to keep the character on screen. To the best of my knowledge the march to Craster's keep being led by Jon didn't happen in the books either.

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
20. That's pretty much what I remember
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 10:28 PM
Apr 2014

Bran's group just traveled North with Coldhands until they finally got to the cave. I'm not sure what the point is of the show having Jon go back to Craster's Keep. So much is really changing from the books now.

Baitball Blogger

(46,700 posts)
12. What was the form of crucifixion?
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 09:18 PM
Apr 2014

I understood the hand that was nailed to the cross, but how did they tack down the hand that was across the belly? With rope?

Mike Daniels

(5,842 posts)
19. Yep. When Roose found that Theon hadn't killed the boys
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 10:26 PM
Apr 2014

He sent Locke out to find them with the presumption Bran/Rickon would try to meet up with Jon at the wall.

NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
22. Vargo would have been nice
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 11:00 PM
Apr 2014

but, I realize that it's hard to do a lisp on a serious show after Monty Python and Michael Palin.

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
24. well, I can see why they didn't have him lisp
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 11:58 PM
Apr 2014

I'm damned if I can figure out what the hell he's doing at the Night's Watch. This whole thing with Bran's group at Craster's and the Watch going after the rebels is like an entirely different story. And Sam told Jon about meeting Bran and his group as well.



Mike Daniels

(5,842 posts)
34. Given how the mutiny thread ends in the books
Mon Apr 28, 2014, 10:05 AM
Apr 2014

I guess Jon going off to extract justice was a less expensive production move. Plus it gives it more a sense of active justice for Mormont's murder.

Baitball Blogger

(46,700 posts)
15. Which sword did Jaime give to B?
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 09:59 PM
Apr 2014

His sword? Or Joffrey's sword? I figure it has to be the one that his dad gave him, since the other one would be too small for her.

Baitball Blogger

(46,700 posts)
23. But, hey, if the frozen dead rot, and don't grow...
Sun Apr 27, 2014, 11:23 PM
Apr 2014

...then, the baby storyline would not really fit the facts, would it?

chrisa

(4,524 posts)
32. Do the babies turn into wights, or do they turn into White Walkers?
Mon Apr 28, 2014, 09:19 AM
Apr 2014

What use would they have as wights? I always thought the white walkers ate the babies, but apparently not.

 

Vashta Nerada

(3,922 posts)
25. I hope the deviations from the book is successful.
Mon Apr 28, 2014, 01:07 AM
Apr 2014

Locke a member of the Night's Watch? Really? That seems...predictable for a tv show.

I thought the Wight Walkers taking the baby and turning it into one of its own was a great way to end the show.

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
27. I always thought the White Walkers were using the babies
Mon Apr 28, 2014, 07:15 AM
Apr 2014

to make more White Walkers even in the books. Why else would they leave Craster's alone, and why leave them alone if they just killed them or ate them or whatever? I assumed that the babies were a lot more important to them, and that seemed the most logical explanation.

So far I like the changes from the book in the show. What I never liked about the books is that Martin was notorious to not resolve things. He adds intrigue about something but just drops it, and most people just lose interest in caring anymore about that thing like the identity of Jon's mother. He made Coldhands so different you figured he had to be someone special, but apparently he isn't since he was left out of the show, and the greenseer apparently tells Bran that he was just some nobody from the Watch that died a long time ago. So why the hell was he so vastly different from all the other walking dead and helped Sam and Gilly and then Bran and his group? From his interview in Rolling Stone I get the definite impression that in writing the books Martin starts these intrigues about characters with no clue as to where they're headed and then forgets about them in going on with some other plot. By the fourth book I was getting really aggravated that he was bringing in yet more characters and plots and story lines yet still resolved nothing he'd written before that you got you excited about, and here we are at the end of book five and still nothing is coming together.

I like what the show is doing with the rebels at Craster's since in the book Martin just left that hanging like so much else. I guess you're supposed to assume that the White Walkers come in and kill everyone or something. And with Bran and his group at Craster's and Jon's group going there is a hell of a lot more interesting than just letting the story line of rebels hang out in the wind unresolved and nothing really going on at all with Bran and his group other than traveling until they finally reach the cave.

The one thing that I don't like about the show is that although Martin's intent was to show the both good and bad of characters - there were no all heroes or all devils - the show is doing that especially with the main characters like Tyrion, Jon and Daenarys. The show is starting to make never-do-wrong heroes out of them when it's so much better when they make mistakes. That's what makes them so much more interesting and real and gives intrigue in never knowing if they'll get something right or step in it.

After thinking about it, I think Locke's presence at the Wall is because Roose and Ramsey are the only ones that know that Bran and Rickon are still alive and Locke was sent there by them believing that they both went to the Wall to be under Jon's protection having no where really else to go, and Locke's mission is to go to the Wall to kill them. I think this is the reason why Locke volunteered to go with Jon to Craster's having discovered that Bran and Rickon aren't at the Wall and are likely on their way and would likely stop at Craster's for help or be somewhere in that vicinity. He's obviously trying to make friends with Jon so that he doesn't expect to be betrayed by him. Thorne may also have something to do with this and may have extended the killing to include Jon just because he hates him. As the acting lord commander he could have gotten messages from Roose/Ramsey about Locke. With Thorne involved it also opens the door for men of the Watch to not want him as lord commander and vote for Jon instead once Jon eliminates Locke and finds out about this intrigue. I never did understand in the books how Sam was able to convince so many to vote for Jon as lord commander anyway.



NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
41. In the books
Mon Apr 28, 2014, 01:48 PM
Apr 2014

Jon was always competent and good at what he did. Plus, he and Donal Noye led the defense of Castle Black from the initial attack by the Thenns. That gave him the support of the few remaining at Castle Black. From there, I think Sam was able to play the dislike of Janus Slynt and Cotter Pyke off of one another.

On the show, he's made to seem less competent - losing his sword to Craster, letting Ygritte escape, etc. Probably to make the eventual turnaround and election more dramatic?

Solly Mack

(90,762 posts)
26. Finally watched. OK show. Answered some book questions.
Mon Apr 28, 2014, 01:41 AM
Apr 2014

A bit of foreshadowing.

At this stage of the show there will be more and more hints about the book(s) yet to be published...and we saw some tonight.

Regarding: Sansa, Bran, Jon, White Walkers. (reanimated dead - horse riders - and the pointy heads now)

Locke is going to facilitate something yet to be written. I don't know what though.


TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
28. I'm guessing the pointy head
Mon Apr 28, 2014, 07:23 AM
Apr 2014

is the king or the priest of the White Walkers that has this special power to change human male babies into White Walkers.

One thing I never understood in the books was that White Walkers seemed to be both the scary ice creatures and the walking dead that apparently the scary ice creatures made come back to a semblance of life as their undead army. In the books though, the scary ice creatures were called White Walkers and the undead were called "wights"... or maybe it was the other way around. I never understood this spelling difference, and in the show since both words are pronounced the same there seems to be no difference in what they're called. The books also often refer to both creatures as "Others" but again doesn't define if that's just the scary ice creatures or the undead or both.

I have a theory about Locke's presence... see my horribly long post up thread - last paragraph.

NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
29. Wight is an old term
Mon Apr 28, 2014, 07:28 AM
Apr 2014

Tolkien used the barrow wights in Fellowship of the Ring, but it goes back further to usage by Chaucer & Shakespeare referring originally to an "unpleasant person", but it evolved over time to be an undead creature.

White Walker is a Martin term.

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
30. well, that's interesting
Mon Apr 28, 2014, 08:22 AM
Apr 2014

It would have been nice though if Martin made it understood what creature is called what. As it is with both the show and the books it seems like White Walker is both the scary ice creatures (and the pointy head now) and the undead. It's confusing especially since in the books he also uses that therm "Others" but doesn't identify which creature that refers to.

Thanks for the history lesson. I knew a "wight" was something in medieval culture like a wheel wight (or is that wheel wright?), but I didn't know about this "unpleasant person" or undead definition.

NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
31. Yes, it's confusing
Mon Apr 28, 2014, 08:42 AM
Apr 2014

and, even more confusing on the show because you can't tell the difference in the spelling when they say "white" vs "wight"

I guess he didn't want to use zombies for the wights, even though his wights seem kind of zombie-like.

Solly Mack

(90,762 posts)
33. So you think Locke's actions will serve to expose Roose's plot? (if only to Jon & Co.) (Spoilers)
Mon Apr 28, 2014, 09:55 AM
Apr 2014

And exposing Alliser Thorne in the process, causing Jon to become Lord Commander because Thorne can't be trusted?

Locke has to die, of course. Jon will have to (help) protect Bran and Co. - or something will. Both Direwolves are now trapped (in the show) - so that's 2 more that need rescue. So Craster's Keep is a staging ground for something.

In the book Sam doesn't tell Jon and he eventually takes a fateful trip. Jon still doesn't know at the end of the last book and Bran is well on his way to becoming what he becomes. Martin makes it seem as if Bran's secret must be kept (for now), so pushing Jon and Bran together in the series must serve a function that eliminates a step (or 2 or 3) from the book. At least that's my thinking.

It could be Jon's ascension as Lord Commander, as you say.

I get how Sam did what he did in the books.

In the series, it doesn't seem that Jon really knows - (highlight for spoilers) [font color="white"] he's a warg yet or what that means. With both Direwolves and Bran at Craster's Keep and Jon coming, I think that means Jon just might learn he's a warg, what that means, and how to use his ability.

Unless the TV series will eliminate Jon's abilities - which would mean those abilities (in Jon) aren't important to the end of the story. Which blows - since Arya is a warg and Sansa probably is as well. Robb died never knowing. Of course, Rickon is a warg too. (his "green dream" about his father)[/font color]










TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
44. I have a feeling that the tv show won't have Jon and Bran meet
Fri May 2, 2014, 07:55 AM
May 2014

Like, they'll just miss each other. I could be wrong though.

I agree with your spoiler, btw.

Solly Mack

(90,762 posts)
49. I am afraid you might be right about that.
Fri May 2, 2014, 11:35 AM
May 2014

I want them to meet so badly (since there is a chance of it) but it could be a near miss like you said.

Bummer.....thinking of it.

NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
40. that was just a guess on my part
Mon Apr 28, 2014, 01:40 PM
Apr 2014

I think Michelle Fairley - the actress that played Cat - is working on a US based show now. But, a few scenes per season on GoT should be workable, I think.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
46. My daughter's a staff writer for Medievalists.net. A great website if you like GOT!
Fri May 2, 2014, 10:40 AM
May 2014

Its a really great website for people who love Game of Thrones and the entire Medieval era...

(shameless proud mama plug!)

http://www.medievalists.net/

OriginalGeek

(12,132 posts)
47. You've every right to proudly plug!
Fri May 2, 2014, 10:55 AM
May 2014

I just looked and now I know how I'll be spending a lot of this weekend. What a cool site!

NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
50. I will definitely check it out
Fri May 2, 2014, 02:07 PM
May 2014

westeros.org can be pretty daunting to somebody that is not a frequent poster there.

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