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Wed Apr 20, 2016, 12:41 PM

My swan song, come get your grave dancing on, if that's your thing.

So I'm leaving. The site and the party. There are some great people here, but I had probably two thirds of the site on ignore, and came to realize that if folks on here are truly representative of the modern Democratic Party, I no longer have much in common with it.

Nearly three decades of voting Democratic by default in every race, only voting third party a handful of times over the years, and now, going forward, if I ever again vote for a Democrat, it will be in spite of them being one, not because of it. I imagine I'll be leaving a lot of races unmarked from here on out. But if I want nothing to do with most of the people who post here in support of foreign wars, undeclared war drone strikes, voter suppression as long as it works in their favour, spying on all Americans, sending those who bring government misdeeds to light to jail, sacrificing the poor in 'grand bargains' or 'reforms', keeping the minimum wage lower than it has to be, fracking all over the world, pushing unlabeled GMO food into every part of the food supply, toppling left wing foreign governments through military coups, and a host of other issues that seem to have been embraced by the modern Democratic Party, well, then, it's time for me to quit 'polluting' the Democratic Party with my presence, in either primary or general elections.

So congrats to all of those who spent their time writing sneering comments about myself and others not being 'real Democrats', who were angry because I and others like me dared to support a candidate who actually believed in the ideals the Democratic Party used to believe in, who wanted to stop all injustices, not just those that won votes. You made it a self-fulfilling prophecy. I'm not a Democrat of any sort any more, and never again will be. Enjoy your ever-shrinking tent.

I expect this to be locked quickly, and my account PPR'ed in a flash, so gravedance fast.

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Reply My swan song, come get your grave dancing on, if that's your thing. (Original post)
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2016 OP
sharp_stick Apr 2016 #1
jonno99 Apr 2016 #2
MuseRider Apr 2016 #3
AmBlue Apr 2016 #157
AikidoSoul Apr 2016 #332
Post removed Apr 2016 #4
xocet Apr 2016 #21
bvf Apr 2016 #156
Bubzer Apr 2016 #217
LanternWaste Apr 2016 #325
sabrina 1 Apr 2016 #345
LibDemAlways Apr 2016 #27
narnian60 Apr 2016 #51
zentrum Apr 2016 #123
R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2016 #126
LibDemAlways Apr 2016 #148
KPN Apr 2016 #320
LanternWaste Apr 2016 #326
R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2016 #333
malokvale77 Apr 2016 #155
LibDemAlways Apr 2016 #160
malokvale77 Apr 2016 #180
LibDemAlways Apr 2016 #273
malokvale77 Apr 2016 #276
MrMickeysMom Apr 2016 #294
SCantiGOP Apr 2016 #324
sabrina 1 Apr 2016 #346
SCantiGOP Apr 2016 #355
rhett o rick Apr 2016 #182
Enthusiast Apr 2016 #240
LanternWaste Apr 2016 #327
sabrina 1 Apr 2016 #347
sabrina 1 Apr 2016 #349
pangaia Apr 2016 #194
840high Apr 2016 #198
passiveporcupine Apr 2016 #237
nolawarlock Apr 2016 #282
liberalnarb Apr 2016 #308
Sheepshank Apr 2016 #316
nolawarlock Apr 2016 #337
liberalnarb Apr 2016 #338
sammythecat Apr 2016 #289
pintobean Apr 2016 #221
LibDemAlways Apr 2016 #269
nolawarlock Apr 2016 #284
mdbl Apr 2016 #293
nolawarlock Apr 2016 #334
mdbl Apr 2016 #364
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Silver_Witch Apr 2016 #312
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Mother Of Four Apr 2016 #321
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riderinthestorm Apr 2016 #5
skepticscott Apr 2016 #145
Live and Learn Apr 2016 #265
pintobean Apr 2016 #6
NJCher Apr 2016 #7
forest444 Apr 2016 #26
cstanleytech Apr 2016 #107
merrily Apr 2016 #171
cstanleytech Apr 2016 #191
Worried senior Apr 2016 #137
Mojorabbit Apr 2016 #267
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Politicub Apr 2016 #10
LisaM Apr 2016 #19
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Politicub Apr 2016 #53
GeoWilliam750 Apr 2016 #125
R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2016 #127
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phazed0 Apr 2016 #108
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A Simple Game Apr 2016 #301
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eridani Apr 2016 #281
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Live and Learn Apr 2016 #266
anigbrowl Apr 2016 #11
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anigbrowl Apr 2016 #339
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Liberal Jesus Freak Apr 2016 #12
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LibDemAlways Apr 2016 #28
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SandersDem Apr 2016 #48
sus453 Apr 2016 #97
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navarth Apr 2016 #101
SandersDem Apr 2016 #102
LibDemAlways Apr 2016 #165
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rhett o rick Apr 2016 #350
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pintobean Apr 2016 #367
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silvershadow Apr 2016 #23
broiles Apr 2016 #103
AirmensMom Apr 2016 #16
liberal N proud Apr 2016 #18
Maedhros Apr 2016 #20
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yallerdawg Apr 2016 #24
Duppers Apr 2016 #25
LibDemAlways Apr 2016 #29
Duppers Apr 2016 #40
jwirr Apr 2016 #47
20score Apr 2016 #98
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onyourleft Apr 2016 #31
sarge43 Apr 2016 #32
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jillan Apr 2016 #251
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fbc Apr 2016 #36
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Dustlawyer Apr 2016 #99
Moostache Apr 2016 #130
zentrum Apr 2016 #300
malokvale77 Apr 2016 #164
LiberalElite Apr 2016 #232
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bvf Apr 2016 #259
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Ed Suspicious Apr 2016 #77
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840high Apr 2016 #205
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ChisolmTrailDem Apr 2016 #329
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Orrex Apr 2016 #224
trc Apr 2016 #255
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oldandhappy Apr 2016 #49
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basselope Apr 2016 #360
zentrum Apr 2016 #303
Triana Apr 2016 #136
Duppers Apr 2016 #141
malokvale77 Apr 2016 #169
840high Apr 2016 #208
Trajan Apr 2016 #226
Enthusiast Apr 2016 #243
appalachiablue Apr 2016 #322
Cary Apr 2016 #138
Loki Apr 2016 #144
libodem Apr 2016 #146
LiberalElite Apr 2016 #234
bvf Apr 2016 #283
sabrina 1 Apr 2016 #348
Not Sure Apr 2016 #143
stupidicus Apr 2016 #147
dbackjon Apr 2016 #151
The Second Stone Apr 2016 #154
malokvale77 Apr 2016 #172
The Second Stone Apr 2016 #179
malokvale77 Apr 2016 #183
The Second Stone Apr 2016 #190
retrowire Apr 2016 #184
The Second Stone Apr 2016 #188
retrowire Apr 2016 #206
Bubzer Apr 2016 #227
malokvale77 Apr 2016 #233
Bubzer Apr 2016 #238
malokvale77 Apr 2016 #249
840high Apr 2016 #209
The Second Stone Apr 2016 #247
840high Apr 2016 #252
The Second Stone Apr 2016 #257
bvf Apr 2016 #158
AnotherDreamWeaver Apr 2016 #279
emsimon33 Apr 2016 #161
closeupready Apr 2016 #230
emsimon33 Apr 2016 #231
closeupready Apr 2016 #256
emsimon33 Apr 2016 #378
darkwing Apr 2016 #314
emsimon33 Apr 2016 #162
Arugula Latte Apr 2016 #167
Angry Dragon Apr 2016 #168
Flying Shoe Apr 2016 #245
truebluegreen Apr 2016 #253
philosslayer Apr 2016 #170
Paladin Apr 2016 #174
Major Nikon Apr 2016 #216
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malokvale77 Apr 2016 #181
Hydra Apr 2016 #176
gelatinous cube Apr 2016 #177
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Chef Eric Apr 2016 #189
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840high Apr 2016 #196
Ilsa Apr 2016 #200
EndElectoral Apr 2016 #201
sister_rosa_refried Apr 2016 #202
peacebird Apr 2016 #204
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workinclasszero Apr 2016 #212
MrMickeysMom Apr 2016 #213
leftofcool Apr 2016 #220
rug Apr 2016 #222
ronnykmarshall Apr 2016 #225
DeadLetterOffice Apr 2016 #228
Bubzer Apr 2016 #229
passiveporcupine Apr 2016 #235
Phlem Apr 2016 #239
Moonwalk Apr 2016 #241
NRaleighLiberal Apr 2016 #258
restorefreedom Apr 2016 #260
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OnyxCollie Apr 2016 #270
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PBass Apr 2016 #287
Amimnoch Apr 2016 #298
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Setsuna1972 Apr 2016 #295
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pintobean Apr 2016 #304
Amimnoch Apr 2016 #297
hellofromreddit Apr 2016 #305
bullsnarfle Apr 2016 #307
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Cobalt Violet Apr 2016 #315
laserhaas Apr 2016 #317
denvine Apr 2016 #318
KPN Apr 2016 #319
MyNameGoesHere Apr 2016 #323
King_Klonopin Apr 2016 #342
LWolf Apr 2016 #372
myrna minx Apr 2016 #376

Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 12:43 PM

1. GBCW #1

I don't expect a PPR for that. I will miss you.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 12:46 PM

2. K&R

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 12:48 PM

3. Bye Erich

Thanks for all your commentary. I think many of us will be gone soon most likely. Enjoy what you can and keep working for your ideals.

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Response to MuseRider (Reply #3)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:35 PM

157. This thread should be PINNED as a constant reminder...

...of what is happening here. Go in peace, friend. Your voice will be missed here by many of us, as we continue to carry the torch a little longer.

In solidarity!

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Response to MuseRider (Reply #3)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 01:02 PM

332. I'm un-joining the Democratic Party after the elections

It's time for a third party... run and joined by real progressives.

There are millions of them out there. Bernie has shown us that.

I wish you wouldn't leave Erich...voices such as yours need to be heard. It makes a difference
even if you can't "feel" it.

I weep when I feel disheartened. I weep when someone who is an intelligent voice decides to take a walk.

Will miss you very, very much.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)


Response to Post removed (Reply #4)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:56 PM

21. As predicted... n/t

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Response to xocet (Reply #21)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:34 PM

156. MADem is still chafing about not having gotten

 

the last word a few days ago.

Poor darling.

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Response to bvf (Reply #156)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:42 PM

217. Such a shame. I think I shall shed a tear for him/her.... oh, I do tell a lie! No I wont!

It makes me too giddy!

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Response to xocet (Reply #21)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 11:46 AM

325. When one creates a self-fulfilling prophecy, one should expect it to be fulfilled...

 

When one creates a petulant, self-absorbed and self-fulfilling prophecy, one should expect it to be fulfilled...

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #325)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 03:29 PM

345. Keep this in mind, the Democratic Party has lost 12% of its base since 2008. THAT is called a self

fulfilling prophecy, since as soon as WE gave them the House, Senate and WH they told us to stfu that our ideas were 'retarded'. Their base now only 30% of registered voters. That is going to decrease even more due to the fact that they are telling those of us who are left,, 'we don't want you'. Well, we don't want them anymore either UNLESS Sanders wins. That is the only hope for the Dem party to maintain any kind of viability as a party.

It's up to them, but they still don't seem to be listening. When all you have is 30% of registered voters, while Independents are now the largest voting bloc in the country, things are not going to continue to go in your favor.

I don't know what your comment means frankly. I do know that the OP is part of a growing number of those Democrats still hanging on to a party that has told them to leave, who are now ready to 'fulfill the prophecy'.

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Response to Post removed (Reply #4)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:58 PM

27. Your reply is one reason why the poster is leaving the party and DU.

Keep it up and you'll be in a total echo chamber of delusional people who think all of the reasons the poster cited for leaving are a good thing. Good luck with that come November.

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Response to LibDemAlways (Reply #27)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:50 PM

51. +1

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Response to LibDemAlways (Reply #27)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 05:06 PM

123. +1

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Response to LibDemAlways (Reply #27)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 05:19 PM

126. It's too bad that the poster has to be so negative.

 

I'm not sure that is what is going to be seen as coming together by camp weathervane, but I don't expect them to understand how disgusted the left is with them presently.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #126)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:05 PM

148. They are truly clueless.

Since when was anyone ever won over by being insulted and treated like shit. When Bernie's supporters find something better to do on Election Day than vote for the lesser of two evils, they'll be cluelessly wondering what went wrong.

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Response to LibDemAlways (Reply #148)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 10:39 AM

320. "When Bernie's supporters find something better to do on Election Day ...

than vote for the lesser of two evils, they'll be cluelessly wondering what went wrong."

Pot, meet kettle!

My you are on a high horse.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #126)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 11:49 AM

326. I think it's cute we chide others for negativity, then turn around and engage in the same ourselves.

 

I think it's cute we chide others for negativity, then turn around and engage in the same ourselves.

No doubt, you'll rationalize to yourself, if not others, that "camp weathervane" is a happy, sweet and ice-cream-filled bit of grade school fun.

That very rationalization is expected from people who hold others to a higher standard than they hold themselves to.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #326)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 01:08 PM

333. Two things.

 

I didn't disparage the author if the OP.

I don't have any hides for some strange reason.

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Response to LibDemAlways (Reply #27)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:33 PM

155. That one was responsible for my first encounter with nasty on DU.

I've never seen different from him/her since.

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Response to malokvale77 (Reply #155)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:41 PM

160. Certainly doesn't do anything to

make me want to vote for his/her candidate.

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Response to LibDemAlways (Reply #160)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:21 PM

180. To be honest...

not a one of them has put forth a "decent" argument for her. Just post after post of bile aimed at Bernie and his supporters.

I see a mass exodus from the Democratic Party in short time.

SMH

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Response to malokvale77 (Reply #180)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 01:51 AM

273. There are no decent arguments for her. I've posted a number

of times asking Hillary supporters to make the case. Why does she deserve to be elected President? I have yet to receive a single articulate response laying out a good argument. For awhile there it was all fear of Trump. Now it's nothing but bashing Bernie and his supporters.They seem to regard us as peasants blocking the palace doors to prevent the coronation of the queen. It's pathetic.

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Response to LibDemAlways (Reply #273)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 02:18 AM

276. You get it...

we're both disgusted by it.

Fear of Trump doesn't work for me. The Clinton's and Trump's have been friends for decades. They all think the same. Trump is nothing more than a fear tactic to get the Clinton's back in the WH.

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Response to malokvale77 (Reply #276)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:33 AM

294. Gee... What does it mean when really rich friends aim to run against the other...

... I mean, besides a bunch of willfully ignorant people managing to ignore we don't have an oligarchy?

La!La!La!La! Nah!Nah!Nah! It'sHerTime! It'sHerTime! It'sHerTime!...

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Response to malokvale77 (Reply #276)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 11:42 AM

324. I know Sanders supporters are big on conspiracy theories

But Trump's whole candidacy is a tactic to elect Clinton?
Wow.
What color is the sky on your planet?

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Response to SCantiGOP (Reply #324)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 03:35 PM

346. No, Sanders' supporters, there are millions of them btw, are not 'big on CTs, that old Sunstein

tactic rears its head again. Just wanted to correct that. Trump and Clinton have been friends for years, he has explained why he has helped finance her three campaigns. Would you like to know what he said? Well, I'll tell you anyhow. He said 'I live in NY and when you live in NY you HAVE to donate to Democrats. IF YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO PICK UP THE PHONE when you want something done, that is what you have to do'.

CT? Or Fact? He's the donor, she the recipient. I say that it's a fact. Because I live in NY also and we know exactly why wealthy people donate to politicians.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #346)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 04:38 PM

355. This is what I was responding to:

from the post: "Trump is nothing more than a fear tactic to get the Clinton's back in the WH."

If that doesn't qualify as a conspiracy theory I don't know what would.

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Response to LibDemAlways (Reply #27)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:25 PM

182. Their arrogance is over the top. The very reason progressives are leaving here.

 

They pretty much run the show here and think they can demean us and still get us to support the Rich Fat Cat's choice. Homey don't play that game.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #182)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:44 PM

240. Huge +1!

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #182)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 11:51 AM

327. It's always "them." Never "us." Bias forces the mentally lazy to perceive as such.

 

It's always "them." Never "us." Bias forces the mentally lazy to perceive as such, regardless of what games you may or may not play with yourself...

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #327)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 03:38 PM

347. So, do you agree with the Dem Party position that the 'ideas' of Progressives 'are retarded'?

Is that 'bias'? Coming from a high ranking Democrat? What would YOU call it?

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #182)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 03:44 PM

349. Actually they don't matter, speaking for myself. Much bigger issues are the reason why progressives

are leaving. There is a lot of work to do and it can't be done here obviously. THAT is why people are moving on.

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Response to LibDemAlways (Reply #27)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:58 PM

194. All his/her posts are like that.. What must that kind of life be like?

...To wake up in the morning and go to sleep like that?
I lose it sometimes as well, but.. jeeze.. it's like 24/7..

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Response to pangaia (Reply #194)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:02 PM

198. +1

 

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Response to LibDemAlways (Reply #27)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:26 PM

237. I wonder

What if we started a movement and all just walked off.

We certainly have the numbers to start a new forum. And I don't mean a forum just for Bernie dems, but for all dems who might feel the atmosphere here is tainted.

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Response to LibDemAlways (Reply #27)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 03:13 AM

282. I'm just befuddled

How this Sanders supporter can even have 2/3 of the site on ignore when I think at least 80% of this site is made up of Sanders supporters I will never know. Talk about difficult math.

As for echo chamber, this is really rich. Sanders supporters on this site alert stalk people, berate people into silence, and are generally just not tolerant of any other view other than their illusory party line. And this goes way beyond this site. Anytime I see something on Facebook, the most vitriolic people are the Trump supporters and the second most vitriolic are easily the Bernie people. I never see Hillary supporters on Facebook ranting and raving and I certainly don't see them on the various social media pages for super delegates threatening them, berating them, and being all around unpleasant.

For this crew to play the victim like this is just so disingenuous.

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Response to nolawarlock (Reply #282)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 09:04 AM

308. Can't tell you how many times I've been harassed by Clinton supporters on here.

 

I once posted about how I am now covered by the affordable care act and they filled my DU mail with messages about how I should be thanking Hillary.

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Response to liberalnarb (Reply #308)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 10:04 AM

316. alerted and bullied myself

 

...until recently when those bullies have found themselves on time out.

I don't base my political voting habits on anon posers on a web discussion board. I generally don't feel compelled to respond when I don't feel like it and I realize NONE OF US knows the true nature, true motivations, true sell out, buy out or cop out behind any poster. It's the very reason I find the GBCW posts on DU, and specifically because of the posting habits on DU, sort of shallow and maladjusted.

We all suspect there are paid trolls here, we all suspect there are operators that just love to disrupt, cause hurt, division and anger, we all suspect there are those that are here to cause havoc, we don't know if they are red, blue or green...we really don't.

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Response to liberalnarb (Reply #308)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 01:40 PM

337. Well, that may be so, but as far as who has the majority power here ...

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Response to nolawarlock (Reply #337)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 02:06 PM

338. You got 37 votes on a website with thousands of users.

 

Not the most accurate poll.

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Response to LibDemAlways (Reply #27)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 05:00 AM

289. Another +1. A very disgusted +1

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Response to Post removed (Reply #4)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:57 PM

221. Quite the pile-on.

 

It's sad really, given the fact that you can't respond.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #221)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 01:25 AM

269. That was a well deserved hide. The post was rude, arrogant,

and dismissive. After a mean-spirited comment like that, the poster forfeited any right he or she may have had to respond.

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Response to LibDemAlways (Reply #269)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 03:23 AM

284. I have seen Sanders supports say so, so much worse

... but because this site is anything but 2/3 people the author of the OP would actually be able to ignore, and because it's, in fact, mostly made up of Sanders supporters, they barely ever get hidden and they say far worse. Heck, my just saying this will probably get alert stalked.

It doesn't matter. The admins thankfully refunded the hundred bucks I donated for a Star membership back. I am all for supporting the Dems, but I will not donate to a site that has a jury system that is rigged to favor the majority candidate rather than actually work to reduce abusive behavior.

Madem's post may have been a bit condescending but so what? It's certainly worse than "piece of shit" and "fuck off" and other things I've seen on here that nobody even tries to alert.

Someone said something to me last night in our patio—a pretty left-wing teacher who is incredibly well-educated and knowledgable—that really stuck with me ... and it's that most of these Bernie people have never really known poverty, so they only actually talk about it as some sort of social experiment. Heck, I'm certainly not poor now but I know poor. I know dirt poor. And I know what having one of these Right Wing wahoos mess up the economy can really mean for people. I don't know if he was really right about his assertions but it does explain this cognitive dissonance that allows the harshest of the Bernie supporters to casually toss off how they'll just sit this one out. I have to wonder if they have at stake what many women, minorities, gays, and the poor actually have at stake. I don't want to go back the days of more homophobia and I certainly don't want to be poor again. I know what's at stake and it's why, even though I find Bernie repugnant (at first because of the Pope thing but now because I see the hatred he inspires), I will still vote for him in November. Many of us don't have the luxury to sit these things out. I applaud those who do, but don't act all high and mighty like you're not participating in the nasty behavior because I've only ever seen the kind of behavior I've seen from Bernie supporters on this website and in the social media from Trump people. It does give quite a bit of weight to that old Horseshoe theory.

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Response to nolawarlock (Reply #284)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:21 AM

293. You call this statement knowledgeable?

and it's that most of these Bernie people have never really known poverty, so they only actually talk about it as some sort of social experiment


That's so wrong from so many angles. Tell your well educated friend that most of the Bernie supporters I know came from poverty and have spent the last 50 years fighting for good wages and safe working conditions only to see it thrown down the toilet over that last thirty years. Has your knowledgeable friend ever been on strike? Give me a break. IMO, only those that have never known struggle could even consider voting for a corporate candidate.

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Response to mdbl (Reply #293)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 01:21 PM

334. Really?

I am certainly not someone who has never known struggle but then I don't believe the lie that Hillary is a "corporate candidate."

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Response to nolawarlock (Reply #334)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 05:29 PM

364. Well, then therein lies the problem

It's not a belief system.

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Response to mdbl (Reply #364)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 05:37 PM

365. If you say so. n/t

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Response to nolawarlock (Reply #284)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 09:33 AM

312. Singing with your biased broad brush again!

 

I am a women and grew up poor and for a good portion of my life have been poor and a mother. For a time I scavenged from dumpsters to feed myself and my son. I know the struggle of whether to keep working and paying more than half my pay for daycare back when men who didn't pay child support suffered no consequence but their children suffered!

I support Bernie. I don't support Hillary and if the only democratic candidate the DNC could run is Hillary there is no hope for the party of which I have been a loyal member for 40+ years. Yes a republican would be horrible for this country so would another war or giving away woman's right to healthcare that is right for her or fracking or the TPP all of which we will have under Clinton.

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Response to Silver_Witch (Reply #312)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 01:24 PM

335. I said this elsewhere, but ...

Why is it nearly always 40 years? It's almost a template. Just once I want to see someone on here say they've been a Democrat for 23 years or something. It's why I question how many of these folks really are Democrats and not just plants.

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Response to nolawarlock (Reply #284)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 10:44 AM

321. Never really known poverty.

.... Social experiment.

I was literally sitting here looking at the blank square trying to figure out a way to answer this without turning the flame thrower on high. Then I realized you probably didn't understand just how offensive that was to someone who had pulled themselves out of it.

Suffice it to say, I won't. Just be very clear, more than you realize have known poverty. In my experience the ones who have broken that prison tend not to talk about it much. I can only speak on myself because I don't know their motivation. Personally I don't like to remember it.

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Response to Mother Of Four (Reply #321)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 01:29 PM

336. Did you not read my post?

I have pulled myself out of severe poverty. I grew up on welfare and I am a pretty damned successful entrepreneur now. How long I'll remain one with Bernie in office is anyone's guess since it seems that he would sacrifice every small business in America if it allows him to hurt the corporations. Of course the corporations can weather this so once half the small businesses are gone, all we'll end up with are ... more corporations. I have broken that prison and I am more than happy to talk about it because I actually still believe in the power of action and change. If Bill Clinton's record is any indication to go by, I'm sure Hillary will make it easier for a lot more people to take that action and change their lives for the better. I never, ever forget where I came from nor do I ever try to hide it. I'd rather appear as a motivation story than a silver spoon.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 12:57 PM

5. I'm sorry Erich.

 

The vote last night has sealed our fate on climate change. I'm unsurprised that many will leave the Democratic party when its now clear that a vote for the status quo ensures our destruction.

Good luck in your future travels.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #5)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:00 PM

145. Don't fool yourself..our fate was sealed

 

a long time ago. In all honesty, it was probably sealed when Jimmy Carter lost to Ronald Reagan. Nothing that Clinton or Sanders could do will stop the rise of global temperatures beyond our ability to cope. The recent foibles of the Democratic Party have nothing to do with it, and last night's primary certainly doesn't.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #5)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 12:51 AM

265. Yep, they sold the next generations out. Shame on all of them. nt

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:07 PM

6. Two thirds of the site

 

aren't invited to the dance. That's not fair!

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:18 PM

7. Please re-consider

You've been around DU a long time and have contributed much. DU will be the poorer without you.

You are a valued poster, despite what some of the callous comments upthread indicate. Not only are your posts thoughtful and often well-researched, you are able to comment on a wide variety of aspects of life, not just politics. You're a creative guy, interested in so much. You taught me about growing saffron!

I do understand your point with the numbers of people being on ignore, but hope you still reconsider. Let things settle down a bit.

If you don't, please let us know where we can touch base with you. Are you at JPR? Got a Facebook?

I sure hope this isn't my last contact with you.


Cher

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Response to NJCher (Reply #7)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:58 PM

26. Hear, hear.

Leaving would be only be giving the Hillistines what they want, and why would a man of conscience want to do that.

Erich merely needs a short vacation from all this, that's all. But he'll be back; people like us can't go too long without the give-and-take.

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Response to forest444 (Reply #26)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:30 PM

107. Referring to people who support Hillary as "Hillistines" does not help and it's just

as wrong as when people who support Hillary use a term to try and insult Bernie supporters.

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Response to cstanleytech (Reply #107)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:04 PM

171. You've been objecting to names like "Bernie Bros" and "BSers" all along for the same reasons?

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Response to merrily (Reply #171)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:48 PM

191. Yes. Of course few for either side are able to put their partisanship aside and listen

but I keep trying even though it seems next to impossible to reason with such people who seem to wallow in showing how much they hate x candidate more than the next person.

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Response to NJCher (Reply #7)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 06:18 PM

137. I agree with Cher

I've enjoyed reading your posts.

Please reconsider otherwise you will be missed by me and many others I'm sure.

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Response to NJCher (Reply #7)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 01:00 AM

267. +1000 nt

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:28 PM

8. I am sorry to see you go and I understand completely.

I have been a Democrat for over 50 years and I am struggling with it lately. Be well.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:44 PM

9. Best of luck to you

Not sure what I'll be doing, working to subvert the corporate captors either from within the party or from without, waiting to see how this all shakes out.

Agree with you re climate change, the status quo candidate is truly not going to get us where we need to go in time. Our future is well and truly fracked. Tragic.

We've made a lot of progress this election, maybe the seed will grow somehow. Your posts were a good part of it, peace.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:45 PM

10. Ok. Hope you're back in Nov.

Many of us have a lot at stake come November. Perhaps you feel like your lot in life will be the same - dem or GOP regardless.

As a gay man, I know my life will not.

But you gotta do what feels right for you. Just don't expect a pat on the back for it.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #10)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:53 PM

19. I actually don't think the OP votes in U.S. elections....

I noticed that he or she spelled "favour" with a "u" in it. So, just saying.

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Response to LisaM (Reply #19)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:04 PM

30. Or.........................

.........he or she could have been born or raised abroad ( educated abroad )....moved to the States and become a citizen.
Just sayin'.


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Response to HeartoftheMidwest (Reply #30)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:08 PM

33. Yes, that's true.

I just noticed it. I am not a fan of this sort of grandstanding email, so there's that.

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Response to LisaM (Reply #19)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:51 PM

53. Didn't notice that

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Response to LisaM (Reply #19)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 05:14 PM

125. I am a born and raised US citizen

And I spell it "favour", as well.

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Response to GeoWilliam750 (Reply #125)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 05:21 PM

127. Same. I spell it both ways. Dual citizen.

 

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Response to Politicub (Reply #10)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:42 PM

93. Without getting into a shouting match, please can you tell me..

 

.. as a Gay man, why the hell are you voting Hillary? Is it not "the" issue that compels your vote? Is there another issue that you are voting for that makes Hillary your pick?

Living in Richmond, VA (Large gay/bi population) I have a few Gay friends and they pretty much lambaste Clinton constantly and despise her.

Serious question, no BS or judgement here.

Thanks for your time!

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Response to phazed0 (Reply #93)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:29 PM

106. I voted for Hillary in my state's primary already

I admire her pragmatism, gun control advocacy and devoting her life to public service to make a society that works better for everyone.

I'm not going to get into a back and forth. I'm voting for the dem nominee come Nov.

You don't get extra points or more ally cred for throwing out a line akin to "some of my best friends are gay"

Good day to you.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #106)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:33 PM

108. Gee wiz..

 

Sorry for asking. Just wanted a 'different' perspective from what I see personally.

Good day!

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Response to phazed0 (Reply #108)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:52 PM

193. I've never seen people as touchy as HRC supporters.

They can't tell honest questions from sarcastic, mocking ones. I see it time and again here. I guess part of it is "the internet problem" where tone, inflection and facial expression can't be heard/seen -- but the other part of it is that, in that lack of aural/visual cues, they automatically assume the worst.



==============

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Response to Beartracks (Reply #193)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 07:53 AM

299. I noticed the same

……thing. I'd get s sarcastic insult in return. Very unpleasant and echoed my impression of her attitude about us, actually.

Also felt that they loved using his acronym—"BS"—because of what it means culturally. The most baffling of it was the tendency to equate progressive ideas—such as single payer—with said acronym, BS—so it was all Bull S&*t.

Actually, Bernie's policies are basic Democratic policies. So her followers seemed furious that we're Democrats instead of Rockefeller Republicans.

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Response to zentrum (Reply #299)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 11:53 PM

373. That's bothered me from the start.

Given a roster of Democrats, I'll go for the most progressive. I was okay with Hillary running... and then Bernie threw his hat in the ring, and I was ecstatic. But the Hillary supporters were like "What?? Who the f*** does he think he is??" and immediately set about dismissing him, chastising his supporters, and eventually doing Rovian attacks on him and all that. And the policy ideas that he espouses are pretty much the kind of things I thought *all* DUers were in favor of not too long ago, but now Hillary supporters claim it's all pie-in-the-sky unicorn fart-dust. Like they always thought single-payer was stupid, money doesn't corrupt, or centrism is the perfect form of liberalism -- instead of only recently coming to these conclusions... around the time Hillary started to have to defend herself against Bernie.

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Response to Beartracks (Reply #193)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 08:17 AM

301. What I can't figure out is most Hillary supporters praise her pragmatism for anything

that could benefit large majority of people but then also praise her all or nothing stance on gun control. I say this as a strong advocate for gun control but also a person that sees nothing wrong with Bernie's approach to gun control.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #301)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 11:55 PM

374. Interesting point. They've used Bernie's pragmatic stance...

.. as a "weak point," when it is precisely her own pragmatism that they hail as THE REASON to vote for her: a.k.a. the "she's a Dem who can actually WIN" argument.

=================

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #301)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 06:28 AM

375. Well, she's just….

……rolled out the biggest attack on this gun issue than ever.

Yesterday she said "The NRA is the most powerful lobbyist in Washington DC". I'm trying to quote her exactly—but was so shocked at this underhanded smear against Bernie. She's attempting to taint him with some of the gun-lobby sleaze trying tacitly to link it to his stance about guns. "The most powerful."

So I looked up the top lobbyists in DC. The NRA isn't even in the top 15. It's mostly health insurance companies and oil and tech. Some of the folks that donate to her, in fact.

I hate the NRA—but she uses tactics like a good acolyte of Rove.

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Response to phazed0 (Reply #108)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:35 PM

254. Clinton and her supporters winning hearts and minds of voters..

 

[font size="5"][font color="brown"]NOT[/font]

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Response to phazed0 (Reply #93)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:28 PM

152. Majority of my fellow gays are avid Clinton supporters

 

We remember all the great work the Clintons have done for us.

Not perfect by any means, but they were a breathe of fresh air in the 90's.




Sanders, while he may have been supportive, was unknown, and frankly has not done anything for the community outside of Vermont.

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Response to dbackjon (Reply #152)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:39 PM

159. So when you read an article like this..

 

Stop Straight-Splaining Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton to LGBT Voters - HuffPost

How do you square that away with your logic of "the 90's" when Hillary only recently (2014, maybe 2011) has become the "champion of LGBT".


Sanders has been on your side for Decades. I'm surprised you think he is supposed to have some far reaching authority beyond his state. Just because you weren't listening to him and fail to educate about it, blaming him for your actions (or lack of), is ridiculous.

Vote against your own interests or at the very least take a chance on the person who has only recently supported LGBT (arguably only for an election), Hillary... I don't get it.

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Response to phazed0 (Reply #159)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 01:37 AM

272. You don't read

 

Clintons have been championing LGBT issues since 1993

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Response to dbackjon (Reply #272)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 03:12 AM

281. By voting for DOMA and advocating marriage as between a man and a woman? n/t

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Response to phazed0 (Reply #93)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:08 PM

173. I have a gay relative and know more than a few of his friends.

 

They are Clinton supporters... I don't think any group is a monolithic supporter of any candidate.

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Response to Thor_MN (Reply #173)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:14 PM

178. Don't admit to Politicub that you have gay friends, otherwise:

 

you get this:

"You don't get extra points or more ally cred for throwing out a line akin to "some of my best friends are gay".

As with anything it's not so much a gay = Hillary supporter, It's just people.. and the same Political Geography we all deal with (Red state, blue state, etc) and who you know and how they identify politically, etc.

For god's sake, there are Gay Republicans.. perplexing.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #10)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 12:54 AM

266. You sold out the future generations and you want us to vote for your continued

happiness? No shame! nt

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:45 PM

11. Living in a bubble can be preferable to getting things done in the real world

 

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Response to anigbrowl (Reply #11)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:15 PM

246. I'm confused. Are you implying that Hillary can, or has

 

"gotten things done in the real world?" If so, what things are you referring to?

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #246)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 02:13 AM

275. If you tell a lie big enough, and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.

I think she's managed to do that with GREAT success. Along with senseless war for profit.

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Response to Kittycat (Reply #275)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 09:28 AM

311. Yup.

 

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #246)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 02:33 PM

339. Oh, you're right. She's never done anything ever.

 

What was I thinking.

True this isn't much of a reply but it's all you deserve.

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Response to anigbrowl (Reply #339)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:30 PM

368. That's what I thought. Thanks for confirming it.

 

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:48 PM

12. I will miss you.

I always enjoyed your posts, especially in cooking and baking. The way you write makes me feel as though I'm helping you garden. Take care

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:48 PM

13. I understand.

Goodbye and Good Luck.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:49 PM

14. hope to see you at JPR at least. nt

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Response to retrowire (Reply #14)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:52 PM

17. Me too.

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Response to retrowire (Reply #14)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:01 PM

28. There are already many DUers over at JPR. It's a breath of

fresh air. Hope you join up. You have many valuable insights to contribute.

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Response to LibDemAlways (Reply #28)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:32 PM

44. What is JPR?

Thanks (in advance).

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Response to sus453 (Reply #44)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:41 PM

48. JPR

jackpineradicals.org

Bernie supporters welcome.

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Response to SandersDem (Reply #48)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:56 PM

97. Thanks.

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Response to sus453 (Reply #97)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:52 PM

115. Here's a direct link!

http://jackpineradicals.org

Might as well give em more targets eh?

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Response to SandersDem (Reply #48)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:06 PM

101. some jerk actually alerted on this post.

unbelievable.

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Response to navarth (Reply #101)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:10 PM

102. LOL

too funny

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Response to navarth (Reply #101)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:47 PM

165. Most of the juries I've been on

recently are for completely innocuous posts that have Hillary supporters' panties twisted in knots. It's become laughable.

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Response to LibDemAlways (Reply #165)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:53 PM

166. Same here for the juries I've been on...

 

Like they forgot they are on a political forum of ideas.

I'm off to JPR as well. This place is for Democratic Party die-hards that think the 'party' can't do wrong. Fanaticism is always a bad thing.

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Response to LibDemAlways (Reply #165)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:01 PM

197. For a while I was getting called to juries

every day, sometimes twice, but since I've expanded my "ignore" list, I seldom get called. There must be a correlation, although I don't know what it is. Whatever, I like it.

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Response to Blue_In_AK (Reply #197)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 04:06 PM

350. That would explain why you don't get called for jury duty for those you've

 

put on ignore but you still should get called for the many, many alerts made by the Clinton supporters. But I believe Skinner warned that he would be removing some from the jury pools for disciplinary actions or other. I haven't been on a jury for close to a month and my percentage is 80% likely to serve.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #350)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 04:24 PM

352. Mine is still 100%,

but I'm actually glad to be let off the hook for a while. For weeks there, every time I would open my iPad, there was a jury call. I hardly ever hid anyone's posts unless there was serious bullying behavior going on or someone was an obvious troll. Maybe someone decided I was too lenient.

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Response to Blue_In_AK (Reply #352)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 04:31 PM

353. It looks fishy to me.

 

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #350)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 04:49 PM

358. No jury duty for a month you say?

 


You must have done something.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #358)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 05:01 PM

359. Guilty, I am a strong supporter of Sanders. That makes me a target to the Jr High antics here.

 

Mocking, gloating, and ridiculing really says who you are.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #359)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:22 PM

367. You're not a target.

 

You get treated the way you treat people. But whatever you did to get kept off of juries, you did it as a juror. Been taking anonymous cheap shots?

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Response to pintobean (Reply #367)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:53 PM

369. That's typical projection. Just because that's one of your tactics doesn't mean it would be

 

mine. Don't pretend that your tactics are not known. But it's cool. You guys are defined by your actions, just like Clinton is defined by hers. Side with the Wealthy like in Jr High.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #369)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 07:45 PM

370. Not me, rick

 

I'm serving twice a day. Maybe you missed this:

Going forward if we see anyone voting to leave the worst-of-the-worst posts, or voting in a nakedly partisan fashion to hide posts which are clearly legitimate, then we will remove that person's ability to serve on juries. (We are not going to provide any notification to members who lose their jury privileges, because under the messed-up values of primary season we think many of you would see it as some kind of badge of honor.)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1013&pid=5098

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Response to retrowire (Reply #14)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:54 PM

57. Me, too!

 

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Response to retrowire (Reply #14)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:06 PM

244. Jackpine is an excellent save haven, but

When this primary ends, win or lose, we are going to need a place to carry on this incredible energy. I hope Jackpine can evolve into a base for this movement that Bernie is only a standard-bearer of, and not just be a meeting ground for Bernie supporters.

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Response to Flying Shoe (Reply #244)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 08:21 PM

371. +1!! /nt

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:50 PM

15. If Trump gets in

we'll look like one of those "Former Soviet Republic" countries.

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Response to Turbineguy (Reply #15)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:57 PM

23. And we will have earned it. nt

 

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Response to Turbineguy (Reply #15)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:10 PM

103. So what? One phony or another?

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:52 PM

16. You are not alone. n/t

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:53 PM

18. I suspect the only ones that would dance on your grave are those who you have on ignore

Most of us that remain, understand, its politics and take the punches and get back in the game again.

Hope things work out for you in the long run. Good luck.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:55 PM

20. Right behind you.

 

I agree 100% with everything you posted.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:57 PM

22. Well please wait until convention at least. Take care. Maybe we will find you

 

on that other site? On edit: I'm right behind you but I'm waiting until convention.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:58 PM

24. Fringy extreme irrelevance is one choice.

Making the Democratic Party better is another choice.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 01:58 PM

25. I understand.

My ignore list is now probably pages long.

There are others here including myself who support the ideas the Dems once supported. The party has moved, not us.

Sorry to know you're leaving.

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Response to Duppers (Reply #25)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:03 PM

29. I'm starting to wonder if DU has enough bandwidth for my Ignore list.

Last night it grew by half again. Hillary supporters are nothing if not completely off-putting and obnoxious.

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Response to LibDemAlways (Reply #29)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:22 PM

40. Ha, yep. I've no tolerance for them left.

For peace of mind, this old gal has had to limit all rationalizing types irl.


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Response to LibDemAlways (Reply #29)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:40 PM

47. When the election season started I said that if everyone

else was putting as many people on ignore as I was Skinner and Earl G would find themselves on this site talking to themselves. I may have come close to accomplishing that myself.

Hope to see you on JPR. I understand your leaving. I will be also but I would like to stay until the convention.

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Response to Duppers (Reply #25)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:58 PM

98. Duppers! My good friend!

Hope to see you over at JPR!
Miss seeing you!

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Response to 20score (Reply #98)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 05:32 PM

129. Hi, my friend! So that's where you've been!

I am registered there! However DU is easier to navigate on my phone which I've been stuck with using since hubs is working full-time (60hrs per wk) on our home computer.
I plan to switch soon.

to you and Mrs. 20score.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:07 PM

31. Best wishes.

I always enjoyed your posts. You will be missed.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:07 PM

32. Going to miss you, Erich, but understand completely.

Hope to see you over at JPR. Be well.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:08 PM

34. If you are concerned about all the DUers that support war

Drone strikes, invasions of privacy, jailing govt whistleblowers, etc...

Just wait until we have a republican president. Then just about all DUers will be against it again.

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Response to hughee99 (Reply #34)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:09 PM

70. Shouldn't have to wait long to see

If she starts a war with Iran like she's said she would, then she's a one-termer.

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Response to PDittie (Reply #70)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:38 PM

90. But she'll definitely have her defenders here. If Trump starts the same war for the same reason,

he won't find anyone here trying to defend him.

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Response to hughee99 (Reply #34)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:30 PM

251. Um - I think Hillary already has the blueprint written for Syria. Or did you miss that part?

Here - let the Security Advisor for the Obama administration educate you...

http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/18/politics/axelrod-axe-files-ben-rhodes-syria/

Even the Obama administration is telling her to knock it off.

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Response to jillan (Reply #251)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 01:19 AM

268. If Clinton becomes president, she will find some defenders here no matter what she does.

If a republican implements the exact same plan, they will find no defenders here.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:11 PM

35. Godspeed

And thank you for standing up for what you believe in.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:16 PM

36. I don't see the issue

 

DU has been overwhelmingly in favor of Bernie Sanders over Hillary Clinton. Sure there is a small minority of people here that support Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders, but it's not exactly like this is an unsafe place for Bernie supporters.

Whatever the site owner's original intentions, this is the Democratic Underground, a place where people who actually pay attention discuss politics, and the majority of posters here are true progressives.

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Response to fbc (Reply #36)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:04 PM

66. I agree

Most of the stories that are rec'd to the top are pro-Bernie stories. Its pretty obvious that a large majority are Sanders supporters. But having others whose choices are different actually gives one the opportunity to argue ones points, IMO. That's why I will stay, and I never have anyone on ignore.

So its going to be interesting around here, now that it seems like the tide is truly turning toward the corporate candidate. Well that's not a good analogy. If anything the tide is turning towards the brave bold vision that Bernie introduced...its just that he won't catch up. Even though polls now show they are almost even amongst Democrat voters, and many of those early States voters now regret their vote. Its completely possible that Bernie may overtake Hillary as the Democrats top choice in the next couple of months, in polling. But his fate was sealed pretty much from the get go with the Super Delegates, Payday Debbie and the DNC, and MSM putting Bernie on ignore. The more Democrats got to know him the more his message hit home. DU is a microcosm of what would have happened as we here are ahead of the news.

Personally, I will stay and stick to my beliefs and work to drag the party kicking and screaming back to its FDR roots. The Political Revolution is not over. Hillary may just be primaried in 4 years if she ignores the reality that half of the party wants REAL progressive change, and instead follows Obama's pro-corporate lead in things like the TPP...then she will do so at her own peril. Because millions of Americans have woken up to the possibilities of what COULD be accomplished, we have seen that there is popular support for Democratic Socialism..if it is only explained to us, as the MSM will never do it otherwise.

I'd suggest Eric stay and stick to his progressive traditional Democratic principles. And if he happens to get tombstoned because of making some OP or comment in support of that..........at least he'll go out on principle. That's what I will do. If DU transforms further into a Republican-lite site that, if Hillary is President, with those that are left scrambling over themselves to see who will be the biggest excuse maker for her latest anti-99% policy...then that shouldn't be too hard.

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Response to fbc (Reply #36)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:58 PM

99. I will say this about the "Discuss politics" part of DU.

In a post about Obama being one of the all time greatest Presidents, I lamented that you could not point out any flaw or disagreement about Obama without being labeled an "Obama Hater." I said that he had done many great things socially, but sided with the financial industry, NSA spying, "Look forward, not back" when referring to Bush/Cheney and Iraq... I said he didn't make my top 10. For this I was banned from the Obama Group. As usual, I clicked on an interesting post on the front page without looking at the group it was from.

Are we so thin skinned that we cannot even offer opinions now? I too am frustrated with the hyper-purity evolving here. I don't do snark or dance on graves(but a few rare times I lost my cool and responded before calming down) and I have never put anyone on ignore. I can say this though, when you stop listening objectively and only want to hear like minded views, you have become like the RW nut jobs that are too angry to listen to reason.

I believe much of this OP, but I take hope that Bernie will not stop organizing and leading us to pressure our government to clean up its act. Bernie losing makes it much harder without the Bully Pulpit, but we can continue to grow and apply pressure. Climate Change and removing the root cause of our government corruption are too important to give up!

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Response to Dustlawyer (Reply #99)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 05:36 PM

130. I have served on more juries in the last 6 months than the previous 6 years...

I know that is a terribly non-scientific sampling, but the increase in jury service requests dovetails with the increasing loss of discussion on the forums and increase in tribalism and lack of discourse.

I feel the website AND our country Balkanizing around me and I do not like it one bit. Being stuck in the Midwest (work and family situations will not permit me to move to the coasts or other regions I find more agreeable in temper and climate...), this is particularly depressing because the sharp divide precludes compromise and makes every issue a fight to the death as the cycle perpetuates itself and intensifies with each round.

The right wing lunatics tearing apart the GOP was one thing, but to see the DLC/Third Way/Corporatists and Progressives parting ways so sharply on the left has me wondering what the future holds as the current system grinds itself into oblivion. The US House and Senate and even the current SCOTUS (because of the Senate) are already broken and badly in need of repair. The two dominant parties in the national political system seem to be following suit rapidly. That is essentially our entire Federal Government and a large reason for the lack of real reform on long range fiscal and regulatory issues.

We need to break the cycle and reform from the ground up. The checks and balances were not meant to be sabots for the gears! (OK...that's maybe a bit too arcane of a reference...lol).

Sorry to see the OP go, but hoping the now inevitable can be shaped into something more than "vote for me because the alternative is too depressing to consider"...I'll be sticking around to find out, just a lot more morose than I had hoped to be.

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Response to Dustlawyer (Reply #99)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 07:59 AM

300. ^+1

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Response to fbc (Reply #36)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:45 PM

164. We just had one of the "hosts" of our Bernie Group...

call on Skinner to shut us down. How quaint.

I see exactly where Erich is coming from.

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Response to malokvale77 (Reply #164)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:18 PM

232. THAT's what she meant? eom

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Response to LiberalElite (Reply #232)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:25 PM

236. That's what the title of the OP suggests.

It was the same as the one from the Hillary supporter.

I have yet to see her say different.

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Response to malokvale77 (Reply #236)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 12:33 AM

259. At first, I thought you must have been referring to

 

the sarcastic OP with the mention of "Heidi." Now that I see the one you're talking about, I am speechless.


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Response to bvf (Reply #259)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 12:42 AM

261. Yes...

and could Skinner please set BMUS free?

It's sick to see the shit that is allowed here while some of the finest minds are being silenced or outright booted.

SMH

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Response to malokvale77 (Reply #261)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 12:49 AM

264. I believe she is.

 

Probably catching up as we type...

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Response to bvf (Reply #264)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 01:32 AM

271. I hope so.

Luv you BMUS.

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Response to fbc (Reply #36)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 04:43 PM

377. Thank you. I have no idea why any Sanders supporters here whine about anything given that they

 

have 80-85% support here and control of the juries. If that's not enough you will ultimately never be happy anywhere.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:18 PM

37. hey - don't feel too bad, I only voted

for Gore to offset my wife's Nader vote. The Dem Party left you a long time a ago. The height of American civilization and
middle class was at the end of Johnson's admin. The Vietnam War and rolling back the progressive tax (with the Dem's help)
made sure we would wind up in the fix we are in now.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:19 PM

38. I dont blame you

I'm not sure why I'm sticking around.

Good luck wherever you land.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)


Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:23 PM

41. Well, I won't miss you, cause I know where you are hanging out,

along with a bunch of other wonderful pro democracy pro justice folks. So I won't miss out on your views and comments.
But all the same, it is sad to see that a sight like this has become hostile territory to someone who holds views like you (and I) do.
I don't comment enough that there will ever be need for me to write a GBCW diary, but I will have already dramatically changed my browsing and website visits this year.
I am a person to take to the streets in search of creating change. In the last decades you may have seen me out there toting a sign and shouting for:
war opposition
pipeline expansion (Keystone, Clipper, et al)
bank/finance reform
TPP, TTIP, and other "free" trade agreements.
single payer- not for profit healthcare

It is a sad day to realize that the party (and its support system- like this site) that you once wanted to work with/through has become your opposition. I mean, full on opposition. Not on just a few issues, I am a pragmatic person, no need to be a purity troll, but on the bulk of the things that I feel strongly about that I need government and political power structures to help sway the outcomes of.

See you over where our kindred spirits hang out.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:27 PM

42. Sorry to hear it.

 

In the end, even if we don't agree 100% (or even 75%), we have a common enemy with whom we assuredly agree is dangerous.

I hope you consider that as you move forward.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:30 PM

43. Ahhhh self-deportation. Maybe DU will get back to what it was in 2000?

 

Thanks for sharing with us.

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Response to Jitter65 (Reply #43)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:38 PM

46. And you know this how?

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Response to Jitter65 (Reply #43)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:53 PM

56. I doubt it. DU peaked in 2001. Losing actual progressives will make the site decline further. nt

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:37 PM

45. There's nothing like a classy goodbye

And this OP is nothing like it.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #45)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:46 PM

50. This. nt

 

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Response to Orrex (Reply #45)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:54 PM

58. Yet your post makes it look classy in context

So there is that.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #58)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:01 PM

64. Meh

Due to chronic butt-hurt he's had me on Ignore for a long time, so it's not like he'll see my comment anyway.

Further, I have no respect for look-at-me GBCW posts, especially when they're transparent attempts to generate sympathy, praise, and weepy requests to stay.

Maybe we can go through it all again when he makes his triumphant return in a few weeks, the way most GBCW-ers do.


If you're going to leave, then leave, but spare us the crass and grandiose displays.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #64)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:12 PM

72. Speaking of ignore

bye!

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Response to PDittie (Reply #72)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:18 PM

76. Thanks for saving me the trouble.

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Response to PDittie (Reply #72)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:21 PM

77. +1

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Response to PDittie (Reply #72)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:59 PM

118. +2

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Response to PDittie (Reply #72)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:09 PM

205. +3

 

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Response to 840high (Reply #205)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:45 PM

219. +4

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Response to FlatBaroque (Reply #219)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:50 PM

242. +5

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #242)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 12:31 PM

329. +6 nt

 

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Response to ChisolmTrailDem (Reply #329)

Sat Apr 23, 2016, 11:52 AM

379. +7

 

Bye Felicia.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #45)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:08 PM

203. There's nothig classy about

 

your candidate so how would you know classy.

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Response to 840high (Reply #203)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:00 PM

224. My candidate is the Democrat on the ballot in November

Last edited Thu Apr 21, 2016, 07:21 AM - Edit history (1)

Who is yours?

See, because I'm a grown-up, I recognize that there is more at stake in this (and every) election than my own personal BFF candidate, and because I haven't attached my ego to either nominee, I don't take it as a personal insult when people choose not to vote for "my" candidate.

I do not "feel" either candidate, nor do I drape either in sappy messianic imagery. I will vote for whichever candidate keeps the Republican out of office, because (much like Sanders) I am easily able to distinguish between Clinton and Trump/Cruz, so she'll get my vote if she's on the ballot, just as Sanders will if he's the nominee.

To judge by the many insults thrown at me, it appears that some of Sanders' more spirited cheerleaders can't accept anything less than a wholehearted embrace of Sanders. They've imagined thselves as the only true Democrats, the lifeblood of the Democratic party, and the mechanism for ushering their imagined Savior onto his fitting pedestal.

If he's on the ballot, then hell yes I'll vote for him, and I won't post some fit of public GBCW onanism to congratulate myself for my unique and precious wisdom.

Because I understand that it's not all about me.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #224)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:36 PM

255. This is the truth of this election

a democrat must win, the democratic party must carry both houses of Congress and we must force our leadership to respond to us as a group. I used to teach 8th grade US history and one of the things I would stress with my kids was responsibility, both to themselves and to others. I would tell them that the way our system of representative government works and is held accountable is by voting for what you believe and working to direct those you elect to do what you want them to do. And then I would tell them that if they do not vote they allow others to assume control that was surrendered by not voting. I would then finish with a simple thought, if you don't vote, sit down and shut up because you have abdicated your responsibility and get what you deserve...no representation at all. If your candidate does not win the primary that is difficult, if a republican wins the presidency and gets to set the Supreme Court for the next 20 years that is a travesty. I am a democrat by choice and I understand there are many flaws in the party and many flawed candidates, but their ideology is so far closer to mine than any republican running that I cannot envision the moment when I say "I do not agree with this democrat so I am willing to let a republican be elected instead." To me that is the ultimate selfish act of irresponsibility to my fellow citizens.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #45)


Response to Post removed (Reply #340)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 03:21 PM

344. So you'll be voting for Clinton, then?

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:41 PM

49. understand

Best wishes

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:51 PM

52. I don't get how giving up makes things better for you and the country??

If you really want to make things better get more involved in the party and work to change it if its so horrible or start working on finding a candidate to challenge Hillary in 2020. Your attitude is completely futile, childish and immature.

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Response to DCBob (Reply #52)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:00 PM

63. Everyone has a right to their feelings. Everyone.

 

Your response was immature, childish, and down right ugly. I believe I know whom you support.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:52 PM

54. Going to miss you, but I so understand!

 

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:53 PM

55. Logged in to say goodbye.

PM me if you care to keep in touch, let me know if you're elsewhere on the internet.

I've greatly enjoyed your posts over the years. Thanks.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:54 PM

59. Friend,

 

Don't leave the party because of sneery comments on a website. Look, not all Democrats are perfect but we're a hell of a lot better than that clown car on the right. As of now, the Democratic Party is our only hope for fighting climate change, raising the minimum wage, making college more affordable, and so much more. Bernie's not done. We've got work to do for the upcoming primary states. We must ignore the regressive DLC and Third Wayers and look to the Progressive wing of the party to help this nation, not abandon the party all together.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:56 PM

60. Thanks so much for your classy goodbye

 

and explanation of why you're leaving. I agree with all you said. I've always enjoyed your posts and have found them to be civil and insightful.

Please join us at JPR. There are good people there and you will feel very much at home.

BTW - My ignore list has grown just reading this thread.

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Response to MissDeeds (Reply #60)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:03 PM

65. Mine did, too.

 

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Response to MissDeeds (Reply #60)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:08 PM

69. That's where I went.

Smarter and better people.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:57 PM

61. Sad to say that it sometimes appears that...

 

...independence/independents is/are not welcome here.

Best wishes moving forward!

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 02:57 PM

62. Time to join the Gravedancer's Union!

I am new to the site and have rarely replied to any posts, and aren't even allowed to post an OP myself yet. I do see the vitriol though that is shared between us "Democrats" and find it hard to take. Where the left used to be a more fact-based community than the right - although not as far gone as the right, things have devolved on our side too.

Fare thee well and I hope you find some online solace! If you do - let us know where to look! Your post made me think of the Soul Asylum record from the early 90's - hence the title to my reply - songs at the link...


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Response to marcopolo63 (Reply #62)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:27 PM

83. +1

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Response to marcopolo63 (Reply #62)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:21 PM

150. More interested in joining the mob

The benefits are o.k.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:05 PM

67. There are so many other forums you can participate in.

I wish you would reconsider.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:06 PM

68. Excellent! Couldn't agree more. And some toxic douchebags

Are here to prove how right you are.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:09 PM

71. AMF!

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:16 PM

73. don't forget to form a new party. We need one. n/t

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:16 PM

74. Bye.

 

No one cares.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:16 PM

75. It's not about you

anymore than it's about any other individual. It's about the will of the majority of the Democratic electorate. Your vote counts the same as mine or anyone else's, but it doesn't count more. That ultimately is what you can't come to terms with. This election broke down alone race and gender lines. As one Sanders supporter announced in GD-P, if not for women and people of color, Sanders would have won. Yeah, and if not for women and people of color there would be no Democratic office holders anywhere in this nation. But this is no longer the America of the minority, where white men alone decide the political future of the nation, and especially not of the Democratic Party. I'm sorry you find that so objectionable.

Much of what you list above is supported by the candidate who you have let define your entire political consciousness. He supports drones. He has voted for virtually every defense appropriation bill and military deployment that has come before him as a member of the Senate or House. His supporters have denounced same day-voter registration in Nevada, and elderly and disabled voting in Wyoming, and his campaign has openly declared a strategy that relies on overturning the results of elections and seizing the nomination against the will of the electorate. Suddenly closed primaries are an issue ONLY because Sanders doesn't perform well in them, whereas the far more restrictive caucus system is championed because he benefits from low voter turnout. I never heard him once mention GMOs. You can project whatever you want, but when your articulation of issues bears little resemblance to differences in actual policy positions, it isn't exactly convincing.

The sense of self-importance reflected in your post is a microcosm of what the Sanders campaign has been about. Too many of his supporters believe they matter more than the rest of us, that the electoral will of the majority. So be angry all you want, but what you are angry at is electoral democracy and the notion that your vote doesn't take precedence over everyone else's.

So by all means, contribute to the GOP victories by leaving spaces empty. Doing so only shows the issues you list above really aren't what matters to you.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #75)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:22 PM

79. I Would Agree With You, But...

not everyone's voice was represented this season, even registered Democrats. That's what stinks. The fair way of having this is to hold every primary for every state on the same day, like a general election. Every registered voter gets a say in who they would like to run in the general election, not just Democrats and Republicans.

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Response to chwaliszewski (Reply #79)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:28 PM

84. ok, i dont disagree with you, but let's not pretend that these rules were just invented to

 

accommodate Clinton. We had similarly distributed primaries when she lost to Obama in 08. The narrative she is winning unfairly, is just inaccurate.

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Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #84)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:49 PM

113. Apples & Oranges...

Obama was a Democrat running for the Dem Nomination. Bernie is an Indy running for the Dem Nom. Difference being, many more of Bernie's supporters are Indies themselves and can't vote in closed primaries. Advantage, Hillary. Obama won the Dem Nom with registered Dems voting for him in the closed primaries. Point being, unless Independents start their own party (which I think they should and probably will after this year), they will continue to be on the outside looking in, with their vote only being of use to either party during the general election. I think if Bernie would've just ran as an Indy this year, he not only would've won the Indy Party Nom, but also the general election. You can't deny that he gets his supporters enthused like no candidate has in a long time.

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Response to chwaliszewski (Reply #113)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:51 PM

114. no apples to apples. the fact that he switched parties, doesn't make the system unfair

 

he was just deliberately not engaged in the system.

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Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #114)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:59 PM

119. Hillary deserves the Democratic nomination...

as evidenced by the delegates won by her. This doesn't make her the best candidate in many peoples minds, though. It will be interesting to see how Hillary tries to get Bernie supporters to back her after she gets the nomination, even when Bernie suggests they should. There are more 'Bernie or Bust' voters out there than you may realize.

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Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #114)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:27 PM

250. Switched "parties"? There's an Independent Party? Who knew?

 

Now, saying he changed his policies or positions, that would be a "switch."

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Response to chwaliszewski (Reply #79)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 03:10 PM

343. I disagree on a national primary

for the principle reason that it would only enhance the role of money in the process.

You say you want the primaries open now because it benefits Bernie, but you should give some thought about the long-term consequences of that move. It is far more likely to make the parties more centrist.

The Constitution gives states the authority to run their own elections. Changes need to be made through the state legislature, which takes time, and it can't be about the political prospects of any particular individual.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #75)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:22 PM

81. so so so true. nt

 

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #75)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:31 PM

86. Wow.

Damn. Fine. Post. On-target from first word to last.


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Response to BainsBane (Reply #75)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 06:22 PM

139. Bravo!

You've said what I thought when reading the OP, but much better. Thanks BainsBane.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #75)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 09:17 AM

310. Yep, and that doesn't include complaining about the existence of super-delegates after hiring the

 

architect of super-delegates, and then later implementing a strategy that is focused on using super-delegates.

Wherever you look, this holier-than-thou persona that is attributed to Sanders and his campaign doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #75)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 12:25 PM

328. It's not aboput him, but it is about how terribly far right the party has drifted

When even the most progressive candidate supports our war machine and fails to decry GMO's why SHOULDN'T we genuine progressives be disgusted. Actually, anyone who could even consider Bernie as 'too liberal' should have a copy of Mein Kampf shoved up a random orifice, tarred, feathered and deported.

Hillary in no way shape or form resembles anything other than what *I* consider a moderate neo-con republican. And quite frankly I am baffled as to how POC and GLBT folks can support her. It just makes no sense, not that I judge anyone who disagrees with me, but it makes no sense. Gender or color should not matter, hell anyone stupid enough to vote for someone on the basis of Gender must never have heard of Margaret Thatcher.

the above said, of course she's orders of magnitude better than any of the evil idiots on the right and I'll vote for the nominee, but holding my nose, picking the lesser of two evils and just unable to understand how anyone could actually be enthused about her.

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Response to The Green Manalishi (Reply #328)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 03:04 PM

341. I don't think you have a clear sense of the party's history

or your nation's history. The presidents most celebrated by progressives, FDR and JFK, led the expansion of American empire and were both far wealthier than Clinton. FDR also presided over Jim Crow and implemented the New Deal in ways the left people of color out in the cold. 25% of his campaign was funded by Wall Street. JFK slashed taxes on the wealthy, attempted a failed coup in Cuba, and was a rabid Cold Warrior more generally.

I can't begin to understand why you think the GMO issue rests on the presidency. People are organizing around that across party lines, and Sanders defeat does nothing to deter that effort.

As for why people of color support Hillary, she has worked to cultivate personal relationships in communities of color throughout this nation over a period of years. She knew that she had to make up for past mistakes, and the reason why criminal justice reform was her first policy proposal was because she learned, through conversations with community leaders, how important it was.

Sanders never cultivated relationships. He depended on people being drawn to his speeches. I have heard some African Americans say they are long accustomed to white folks coming in at election time and making lots of promises, and it doesn't impress them. Clinton has been there when the cameras aren't running, developed relationships over decades. That sort of thing matters.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #341)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 04:13 PM

351. Those are some good points, thanks.

I do think that the Hillary is far more 'rightist' than Carter, but true, compared to the foreign policy of JFK and FDR even her neocon (IMHO) interventionist stance is better.
I like Bernie a great deal more because I care more about speeches than schmoozing and firmly believe that economic inequality is, if not the root cause of the racial problems, the single factor causing them to be as harmful as they are, and that Bernie's policies are much better in that regard; however I'll vote the nominee

Regards

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:22 PM

78. I didn't always agree with you but I genuinely liked you.

 

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:22 PM

80. He would never get anything passed.

 

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #80)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 05:43 PM

132. Neither will she.

The Republican base despises her and their Reps will tie her up in endless investigations and impeachment threats from day one. It's an utterly predictable dance between the Reps, Clinton and the media.

The Republican base actually respects Bernie and understands that he's for ordinary people and so are not ruled by the same hatred that fuels them to thwart Clinton. If she wins, it will four years of Reality Politics. She'll concede more and more to the right just to survive. So much for getting anything passed. (Oh—not to mention she isn't deeply impassioned by any program. She would never go to bat for single payer for example.)

I understand this poster completely. The Democratic Party has left us and yet may have sown the seeds of their own undoing, because now, they've finally picked a candidate that Independents, the Democratic base, and Republicans all distrust and dislike. That is not a recipe for a successful presidency. I wouldn't want a person who already had so much enmity in the ranks to be even the president of the local PTA.

Bernie would have gotten a lot done for us.

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Response to zentrum (Reply #132)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:29 PM

153. This is the best analysis of what's

in store should Hillary somehow manage to get elected -- which, frankly, I don't see happening. Why the establishment thinks running an enormously detested candidate with voluminous amounts of baggage in an election year in which the public is hungry for change is beyond me.

They are so desperate to help her fulfill her lifelong ambition that they've completely lost sight of political reality. If she somehow pulls it off, prepare to see the Repukes immediately impeach her or create gridlock that makes the gridlock under Obama look like child's play. If they do work with her on anything, you can be sure it will be horrific for the middle class.

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Response to LibDemAlways (Reply #153)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:36 PM

186. And with that you are absolutely correct.................................

the spiral of using the public as fodder in this gambit is going to be horrible...........................but people don't want to believe it,
The Congress is gerrymandered until 2020 censuses and the senate was the last bit of hope and that went out the window when the "meeting" was held in that restaurant in 2008, and the Supreme Court damage for the last thirty -five plus years is just unbelievable.

And this comment below from you pretty much nails it.......................................

"Why the establishment thinks running an enormously detested candidate with voluminous amounts of baggage in an election year in which the public is hungry for change is beyond me."

Me also............................................



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Response to turbinetree (Reply #186)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:03 PM

199. As Dems

….I know we're really struggling over what to do.



Hope I haven't subverted this thread.

Erich—maybe you'll give DU another shot.

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Response to LibDemAlways (Reply #153)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:59 PM

195. And her tenure

…..will twist what feminism is really capable of giving the country. After all, that's an aspect of "revolution" too. Here's what I mean:

One, is that as the first female President, she'll look or be rendered incompetent, because of constantly having to defend against those investigations into her bad judgements. So much for breaking the glass ceiling. And secondly, the result of this, will be her doing what she always does—she'll play the victim card and say that she's being persecuted because she's a woman. Both of these are bad for feminism.

We need someone like Elizabeth Warren, who really is impassioned, truly competent, and who never uses her gender as a victim ploy. (I speak as a woman here.)

Short of that, we need Bernie.


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Response to zentrum (Reply #132)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:31 PM

214. but she won't sign a bill repealing the ACA

I am one of many that benefits from it - I'd be back to my old situation of high deductibles and paying medical bills outright. Which was OK when I was younger.

Pre-existing conditions would come back.

Not worth it over Bernie. People have run in primaries and lost before.

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Response to treestar (Reply #214)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:00 PM

223. We've never had something like the TPP in the balance before.

There's absolutely no doubt she will get it passed... and it will destroy this country.

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Response to Bubzer (Reply #223)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 12:45 PM

330. Eyeroll.

The TPP will not destroythe country. It will strengthen US exports.

Fracking is our way of reducing our dependency on the Middle East for our oil. Hillary is right. It should be regulated so it doesn't hurt our water supply. But in and of itself it is not a bad thing. You can claim we use too much oil but that is a different debate and America is a car country so any big changes will take generations.

You can not ignore economics.

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Response to darkwing (Reply #330)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 01:01 PM

331. Pro TPP AND pro fracking? Your totally belong over in freeperville... not here on DU.

Money means nothing if you're not alive to spend it. Sorry, got not time for people like you. Straight to ignore you go! Enjoy your oil-laced water.

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Response to Bubzer (Reply #331)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 05:18 PM

363. Those issues are not the clear as to liberal/conservative

I don't think we need to label someone as a freeper for not buying the insistence that the TPP will destroy this country and that our leaders deliberately want to do that to us.

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Response to treestar (Reply #363)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 05:45 PM

366. Maybe not. But absolutely a corporatist, which, quite frankly, is far worse.

The TPP will grant corporations privilege over sovereign countries. Which means they externalize all costs... and will not bother with environmental controls, and so, will dramatically increase pollutants into the environment. That is absolutely a pro corporatist movement.

Fracking has long been identified by scientists and environmental groups as incredibly destructive to the environment, and as having cause earthquakes. Energy companies don't care... they just want money... and they wont have to pay a dime for the consequence. Effectively making that a real world example of what externalizing costs look like. It's all more pro corporate bullshit.

Especially the part where the focus was on profits, and supposedly strengthening exports, and oh, we need to embrace incremental change... and blah blah blah... it's all corporatist bullshit talking points. Not buying it.

Lastly, I didn't mention "our leaders"... those are YOUR bullshit words... not mine. Corporations want the TPP to pass... they see all the benefits they can get through it's thousands upon thousands of pages. Obama didn't lead the TPP's creation... Hillary did. Her and all the corporations standing to benefit from it. Obama only knows what he's been told... he's been given a misrepresentation of the agreement... not the ugly reality of it. So, no, Obama is not trying to deliberately destroy the country. He's being lied into it.

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Response to Bubzer (Reply #223)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 05:16 PM

361. I don't agree with that

"destroy this country?" No it won't.

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Response to treestar (Reply #214)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:21 PM

248. United Healthcare.......................

just the name of this oligarchy is just wrong.

Today United Healthcare, said that they were thinking of not using the Affordable Care Act, because they were not making enough moola.

This means that the people in that system will be forced into what-----------state run Medicaid if you under 62 and if you live in I don't know Kentucky, then what do you do, what is she going to do about that.............................that is the issue in the room, that was not being discussed..............................Sanders said Universal coverage, or a single payer, public option, she said what on this issue.................this is what she said ..................




http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/02/11/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-debate-health-care/80265646/

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Response to turbinetree (Reply #248)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 05:17 PM

362. thinking of not using the ACA?

Doesn't make any sense.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:27 PM

82. Brother Erich -

I am with you. Solidarity my friend.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:30 PM

85. Thanks for your dedication

 

I'm nearly there myself

I want to see what Bernie does ... He encapsulates what being a Democrat means to me ...

DWS and ... That other right wing lady? ... They are moderate conservatives, at best ... I will not tolerate them ... Not one bit ....

#StillSanders

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Response to Trajan (Reply #85)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:36 PM

89. I understand exactly where you are coming from...

Bernie or Bust !

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Response to Trajan (Reply #85)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:32 PM

215. .... nt

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:35 PM

87. Oh, come on! Hillary isn't in favor of those things you list...

It's just Republican propaganda!

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:36 PM

88. Oh, I hope you will come back.

I've been here long enough to see several primary cycles, and I have seen a lot of bad blood in those times. But most of us actually live by our ideals of tolerance and inclusiveness... most of the time.

Except in the primaries, when we turn against ourselves and then have to learn to forgive.

When this election is in the books, as usual to the total satisfaction of no one at all, perhaps you will consider returning. We need your voice and your influence.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:40 PM

91. Yep. I grok. The diaspora has begun.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:41 PM

92. I, for one, will miss your posts

Even the passionate ones were usually well reasoned.

I may be following you out the door soon, leaving both this website and the Democratic Party.

Good luck to you, wherever you are and whatever you do.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:43 PM

94. Not locked yet, and...

 



Well said. Well done.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:52 PM

95. Hope you like it when the true fascists are in charge because people like you wouldn't vote

for less bad.

It may not be satisfying, it may not be perfect, but I want to keep choice for any of my future granddaughters. I don't want the SCOTUS to go back to being controlled by the RW and I don't want our Clean Water act or Endangered Species Acts to end. I also don't want minimum wage ended and unions ended too. I don't want the rich to have their taxes cut even more. I hope you can live with the horror than a Repug president would bring. Look at the last one, 2 wars of choice, massive job losses and the rich raped every one else and stole our money. That's what you will and other progressives who won't vote for HRC will be enabling. HRC isn't my candidate of choice, but she is way better than any of the other alternatives if Bernie isn't our general election candidate. Yes, Bernie is far, far superior, but don't think he'll be allowed to win, so sad.

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Response to lark (Reply #95)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 09:38 AM

313. Honestly it is because of Wall St shareholders.

It matters little who someone votes for if they have money in Wall St. That money is already doing the yeoman labor for elevating fascism as our national pastime. From lobbyists who act on their behalf to corrupt politicians willing to look the other way for one of their dollars.

We live in the most progress they cannot personally fund the blocking of. One of the reasons I get a big chuckle when I read someone who I had previously thought claimed to stand for democracy for all people is actually a participant in Wall St. Maybe someday they will grow up and start taking responsibility for what they do. Until then, they are the downfall of our society, and perhaps all society.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 03:55 PM

96. I will miss your voice here.

I can deal with the ghouls a bit longer.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:02 PM

100. Not voting for the Democratic candidate.........

is giving an easier pathway to the Presidency for Trump or Cruz......and no matter how you look at it, Cruz, Trump, Kasich, Ryan, et. al. would be worse than W, far worse....and with the possibility of several SCOTUS vacancies, and the possibility of a GOP controlled Congress......recovering from the potential damage would take a generation if recovery was possible....look at the draconian policies enacted in Kansas, Wisconsin, N. Carolina, Indiana, Michigan, Louisiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Maine, Oklahoma.......that's what the GOP wants for the US.......sitting out an election is basically ceding power to the racists, nationalists, theocrats, and the 1%.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:29 PM

104. Agreed.

We need a progressive pro people anti war party and today's Democratic party aint it.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:29 PM

105. If you leave...

They won!

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:40 PM

109. I joined the grave dancers' union, I had to file...

 

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:46 PM

110. K&R + 1000s (n/t)

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:46 PM

111. Oh, Erich!

So many of us are on the same page, it seems.

I will not vote for "the lesser of two evils" ever again.

AND, I think the people who keep interjecting that "you can't write Bernie in; he can't win that way!" are among those who see just how very popular is Bernie Sanders!

AND, what if he CAN win that way?!? I am with Bernie all the way!!! ALL THE WAY!!!

Voters will know--it will be quite evident how the corporate megalomaniacs cheat to steal the nomination. Why isn't Hi11ary commenting on the voter irregularities that keep happening?!? Might it be because she APPROVES?!?

I no longer recognize the "democratic party" du jour that supports a dishonest corporate shill like Hi11ary.

Hope I'll still see you at JPR.



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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:47 PM

112. A Clinton got me into politics, and a Clinton got me out.

I'm done, too. The Democratic Party is a sham and has nothing to offer real people with real struggles. Just empty words. The party leaders have spoken, and I'm no longer listening. Buh-Bye!

On edit: I'm a long time liberal who's fought the good fight. I'm sick and tired after energetically participating in a political system that turned out to be a total waste of time. I won't be voting for the first time in decades. My vote doesn't matter, and the people who pretend to listen to "We The People" are too busy shilling for dollars from the very people responsible for destroying our Democracy. They joke about us behind closed doors, and then pander for our votes when they're out of "The Room Where It Happens".

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Response to liberalmuse (Reply #112)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 05:13 PM

124. The fight is not over.......

they are fighting.......the GOP is fighting to take the US back, way back......not voting is ceding power to them......SCOTUS, reproductive rights (including birth control), even more voter suppression and gerrymandering,...........

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:52 PM

116. You Should Start Your Own Site And Call It...

www.independentaboveground.com

I'd join it!

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 04:57 PM

117. Recing before the lock.

Sorry to see you go Erich, but I understand the feeling.
All the things you listed seem to be fine by the Democratic authoritarians among us...
Because, Democrats.

I long for the day that neoliberalism dies.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 05:04 PM

120. See you in September. nt

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 05:04 PM

121. Green for Me!

Never have I witnessed the voting suppression and caging that has been evident in this election. I would have expected it of the Repubs but not of the Dems. My conscience will never allow me to vote for a candidate that represents everything that is wrong with our country...from fracking and fossil fuels...to cronyism...to corporate power and greed...to warmongering for selfish ends...to support of private prisons...to false pandering to minorities ...to changing positions according to the wind just to get elected. My principles are much higher than that. Sorry! Green for me!

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 05:04 PM

122. I came across

….a great article by George Monbiot called "NeoLiberlaism---The Ideology at the Root of All Our Problems" that I think will really speak to you.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot

It echoes and addresses everything you are saying. He draws a lot of threads together including what happens when the "Citizen" as a concept, becomes converted into a "Consumer". He also talks about how the left has failed to respond to the neoliberal assault on every aspect of our life, and has had nothing "new to say" for 80 years.

No doubt we need a rebirth.

Very sorry to see you go, because I think DU is a much better place with people like you on it.

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Response to zentrum (Reply #122)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:45 PM

163. This is a really great article and well worth a read. nt

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Response to emsimon33 (Reply #163)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:11 PM

207. Taught me a lot.

Sending to all my friends. Hope Erich reads it too.

The entitlement of the rich as an overt tenant of the ideology was really important. I've seen it in action. Thought Ayn Rand had just won over a cruel subset of powerful Americans—but no—she's won over whole nations.

Wish Bernie would say some of these things in his speeches which, truth be told, get a little redundant. I love him and trust him but want him now to get more nimble, to expand his explanations about what it is we're fighting.





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Response to zentrum (Reply #207)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:43 PM

218. I agree

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 05:41 PM

131. that's a shame- always is when liberals opt out of the process. always easier if you don't have any

 

wedge issues effecting your civil right though. maybe get active locally? wish you well.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 05:50 PM

133. Sorry your leaving

I feel the same as you regarding the D on my registration.
NADA= Never A Democrat Again!
PUMA- Party Unity My Ass!
I will miss your posts, hope you find JPR or wherever you land a more Democratic forum.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 05:52 PM

134. Sorry to hear it, but I understand.

 

Hope things change, some day, for everyone. Peace.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 05:53 PM

135. Many of us will be right behind you.

 

The democratic party is a shell of what it once was.

Identification with a party has been dropping steadily over the years, much like people's participation in religion.

It no longer represents my values and really hasn't for years, though I respect some people trying to stay and fight from the inside, but it is too corrupt and too entrenched with the very enemies of democracy.

The chances of me voting for Clinton are 0. I honestly cannot think of a worse person to have in the White House.

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Response to basselope (Reply #135)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 06:38 PM

140. what's interesting is that i can think of several thousand

that would be every Republican politician in America.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #140)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 06:56 PM

142. Sorry, I am not sure that is true.

 

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Response to basselope (Reply #142)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:19 PM

149. Really? Name ONE republican pol

that you would prefer to see as President over Clinton.

I honestly want to know.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #149)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:35 PM

185. Pretty much any of them.

 

Although in many ways, the more radical the better, because the less they will practically be able to get done.

The problem with Clinton is that she will give the GOP house and congress pretty much everything it wants, just like her husband did and we will wind up with another financial crisis as a result.

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Response to basselope (Reply #185)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 04:34 PM

354. Are you on the right website, then?

I'm not as cynical as you are about Hillary. In fact I think you're flat out wrong and hyperbolic.

We're likely to have another financial crisis regardless who is President. Certainly there will be a recession at some point.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #354)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 04:41 PM

356. Yes.

 

I'm not wrong either.

I wouldn't want Clinton NEAR the white house in a crisis

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Response to basselope (Reply #356)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 04:49 PM

357. you're not right, either. you BELIEVE your prediction will be correct

you have no proof it will be, just like all the other DU Cassandras.


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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #357)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 05:08 PM

360. Well.. I know it is correct.

 

It ain't easy to predict.

Luckily, she won't get near the white house.

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Response to basselope (Reply #135)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 08:26 AM

303. One of the

……qualities of Neo-Liberalism is the "hollowing out" of institutions and beliefs, so that Democracy, for instance, instead of meaning the welfare of all the people, becomes equated with "Free Market" and Capitalism.

As I said up-thread, I highly recommend you take a look at an article called "Neoliberalism—The Root of All Our Problems".

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot

It describes and explains your experience of the Democratic party becoming a shell of what it once was.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 05:59 PM

136. Frankly, today's so-called "Democrats" wouldn't know a REAL Democrat

 

if one bit them in the ass and dared them to fight for what's right for the masses.

Because one did, and they sneered, failed to vote for him, and laughed their asses off as the wealthy and corprats trotted off into the sunset with their and their children's and their planet's future.

2016 was an IQ test.

America: FAIL.

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Response to Triana (Reply #136)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 06:39 PM

141. True! nt

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Response to Triana (Reply #136)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:00 PM

169. Dead on perfect. nt

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Response to Triana (Reply #136)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:15 PM

208. true

 

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Response to Triana (Reply #136)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:03 PM

226. +1,000,000 ... BUT ...

 

We aint done yet ....

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Response to Triana (Reply #136)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:56 PM

243. Huge +1!

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Response to Triana (Reply #136)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 11:03 AM

322. +10 The heart of the matter.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 06:19 PM

138. Awesome pity party!

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Response to Cary (Reply #138)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 06:59 PM

144. Don't get your way, you take your ball and go home.

Can't tell you how many times the candidate I liked didn't win, but I didn't give up. Change is hard work, and that's why I stay and when we have a functional three party system, then maybe we will have work to do. But until then, I will do whatever it takes to rid this country of republicans. Don't tell me that we are the same, that's the lie they want us to believe, and I can see that a lot of people have bought Karl Rove's Kool Aid and have asked for more. Shame, that's exactly what he wanted us to do.

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Response to Cary (Reply #138)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:01 PM

146. Typical

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Response to Cary (Reply #138)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:19 PM

234. To which you invited yourself eom

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Response to Cary (Reply #138)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 03:16 AM

283. Did the doctor take you off verbs?

 

Good. Less damage to the language that way.

Whine about a cretin (4)



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Response to Cary (Reply #138)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 03:41 PM

348. Yes, it is awesome to see so many supporters here still for the truth. No pity here, just pragmatic

agreement with facts.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 06:57 PM

143. I agree with pretty much everything you said

I'm sorry to see you go, but I probably won't be far behind you. Over 10 years here (far longer than that voting Democratic) and it's evolved into something I don't recognize.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:05 PM

147. I can certainly relate

 

but I see them and this place as I long did the cons on other boards we shared -- they get the grief others don't, because "we" wouldn't last long in the "real" world.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:24 PM

151. Bye. I am sure the GOP will welcome you with open arms.

 

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:32 PM

154. Good riddance to bad rubbish and a sore loser who won't go with a majority

 

if it doesn't please. Buh, bye. Get out.

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Response to The Second Stone (Reply #154)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:07 PM

172. Congratulations

You represent the New Democrats so well.

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Response to malokvale77 (Reply #172)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:21 PM

179. Thank you. Now keep your promise

 

and leave forever. Or stop your sad-sack weeping and get to work. Either pick up your marbles and go home like a sore loser, keeping your promise to be a sore loser picking up her marbles and going home, or pick up a shovel and get to work. There is a lot of work to be done. But stop being a morale problem because of your hurt ego. This is a group effort. Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

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Response to The Second Stone (Reply #179)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:30 PM

183. Your post makes no sense in reply to my post.

I predict you will quickly become one of Skinner's favorites.

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Response to malokvale77 (Reply #183)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:45 PM

190. I am no fan of Skinner, who banned my good friend Bartcop

 

Skinner runs a site that libels our party's leading candidate several times an hour. I have no respect for that. Zero.

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Response to The Second Stone (Reply #179)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:31 PM

184. I'll lead, thank you very much.

Follow if you want.

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Response to retrowire (Reply #184)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:43 PM

188. Demonstrate some leadership and I will

 

but if you continue whining and sour grapes, no.

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Response to The Second Stone (Reply #188)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:09 PM

206. ;) No whining has been done on my part. nt

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Response to malokvale77 (Reply #172)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:06 PM

227. Yeah... the New Democrats and a new name added to my ignore list

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Response to Bubzer (Reply #227)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:19 PM

233. Dear Bubzer

I hope you weren't talking about adding me to the ignore list.

That would break my heart.

Breakfast with Bernie was the first email message I ever signed up for.

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Response to malokvale77 (Reply #233)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:29 PM

238. Oh goodness no! I was refering to the person antagonizing you!!!

You're a keeper!

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Response to Bubzer (Reply #238)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:23 PM

249. Thank you...

Heart still intact.

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Response to The Second Stone (Reply #154)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:18 PM

209. Majority is dead wrong.

 

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Response to 840high (Reply #209)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:18 PM

247. That's what a communist says when they reject the majority

 

We're Democrats here. We abide by the majority vote.

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Response to The Second Stone (Reply #247)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:30 PM

252. I'm not a lemming - used to be.

 

Since JFK also voted D = not anymore.

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Response to 840high (Reply #252)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 12:22 AM

257. You are entitled to vote anyway you want

 

and so is everyone else. As a partisan of the loser, you get to whine and complain about the winner, and the partisan's of the winner get to roll their eyes.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:37 PM

158. Stick around, if only for the juries. n/t

 

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Response to bvf (Reply #158)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 03:00 AM

279. Thanks for the laugh in this thread. n/t

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:43 PM

161. I fear there will be a mass exodus from the un-Democratic Party

I keep hearing this from long-time, hard working (canvassing, phone banking, giving what money they can. rallying to call their representatives when asked to do so) Democrats with whom I have volunteered all over the country. In the past, the Democratic Party establishment has arrogantly said, "Well, you have no other choice." Before I stopped watching MSNBC, I heard this mouthed again a lot. However, these Democrats who will leave the party if the shennagins steal the primary say that they do have a choice: They can simply not vote. They can leave the Party that they feel has betrayed them and left them behind in its greedy pursuit of money and access.

If they are not very careful, the Democratic Party will find itself in the backwaters of American politics after this election.

It is sad, oh so sad.

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Response to emsimon33 (Reply #161)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:10 PM

230. Debbie Wasserman-Schultz' record as DNC head is miserable.

 

Thus, there is no reason to believe she will be successful THIS time, either. So in other words, our market share has been shrinking, it will shrink yet again this time, and yet, she will retain her seat. Kind of like the Condaleeza Rice of the Democratic Party.

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Response to closeupready (Reply #230)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:13 PM

231. Yes, in their hubris they fail to see the abyss--the end of the Democratic Party

It has actually become more to the right than the Republican Party of the 1960s, so I guess there is actually no Party of FDR Democrats. It may be time for them to form a third, progressive, party as the establishment Democratic Party only wants them every four years to canvass, phone bank, give money, and vote. Then they must roll over and play dead or they are not "real" Democrats..

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Response to emsimon33 (Reply #231)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:40 PM

256. Long ago, I had a friend - he was fond of saying,

 

(though he likely borrowed it from elsewhere - Aristotle? Lord Byron? Connie Stevens? Who knows):

"To everything, there is a beginning, a middle and an end."

It's possible that what we are living through now is the end of the Democratic Party as we knew it, as once we witnessed the end of welfare as we had known it, to that point.

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Response to closeupready (Reply #256)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 10:08 PM

378. It will be the end of the un-Democratic Party if Hillary is the nominee

I was at an event last weekend to organize for Bernie (over twice as many showed up than were expected by the way, over 22 people). While waiting for the event to start, I asked a question I have been asking a lot lately: If Hillary gets the nomination, will you leave the Democratic Party. All but two people were at least over 50 and all were life-long Democrats and all but one said yes.

As I travel around California and the rest of the country, this is what I have been hearing: 10 to 25% say they will stay. The rest feel that the Party has deserted them so they are deserting it and NOT voting for Hillary. Some have even said that they are so disgusted with the un-democratic behavior of the Party that they will vote for the Republican presidential nominee just so Hillary will not win.

There is a lot of anger and frustration out there which the Party establishment is ignoring at their peril.

Hillary saying that she will adopt Bernie's platform is not believable as the Republican base hates her even more than they hate Obama so there will be grid lock for another 4 to 8 years if she gets in. While Bernie has an army to fight for his vision, Hillary has her big money supporters who are opposed to Bernie's vision. Who do you think she will listen to?

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Response to emsimon33 (Reply #231)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 09:42 AM

314. You realize elections are more often than 4 years?

This is part of the problem. A lot of people are upset their candidate lost and that is understandable. But this country is more than just one office. There are hundreds of elections every two years. The Republicans realize this and take advantage of it. A lot of Democrats can't seem to be bothered except for president and even then can't be bothered unless the one person they are for is running.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:44 PM

162. Come on over to Jackpineradicals.com

So many of the really great people banned from DU are now hanging out over there. Great discussions and fact based at that!

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:54 PM

167. I get it. I'm having similar thoughts.

 

I'll think of you when President Clinton gets "something accomplished" -- passage of the TPP ...

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:55 PM

168. one only has to look at the 1956 Republican Platform to see how far we have fallen

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Response to Angry Dragon (Reply #168)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:10 PM

245. A big +1

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Response to Angry Dragon (Reply #168)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:32 PM

253. + a brazillion

 

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:04 PM

170. Toodles

 

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:08 PM

174. See ya.

Sure as hell wouldn't want to be ya......

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Response to Paladin (Reply #174)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:39 PM

216. Results...

On Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:35 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

See ya.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1018&pid=859601

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

"Sure as hell wouldn't want to be ya" Rude and hurtful.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:39 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Meh. Leave. Ohio Joe
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Cliche to the point of idiocy, but not really hide worthy
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:09 PM

175. Another one of the most intelligent, thoughtful posters on the board. Fare well, Erich.

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Response to merrily (Reply #175)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:24 PM

181. Yes he is. nt

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:09 PM

176. It's been an honor

And I hope to see you in the People's Progressive Party. There will be a lot of us there when it happens.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:11 PM

177. Goodbye,

something tells me that the party has lost a good person. I wish you the best of luck.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:37 PM

187. I feel your pain, my friend.

 

The Party has ceased to represent the interest I find most important as a American citizen and human being .

I think that Bernie's campaign has started something that will result in a generational shift in Democratic politics. Clinton will be the last hurrah of The Third Way -- and for that, I am eternally grateful to Sen. Sanders.

See you at the barricades!

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:44 PM

189. Can't say I blame you.

I'll miss your posts.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:50 PM

192. Hi Erich

I remember you from dkos. Hated to see you leave there. You might like Caucus99percent.com. Mostly Bernie supporters, pretty low-key, and a lot of names you'll know and probably liked from dkos. I expect it to pick up steam since dkos will become even more unbearable.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:00 PM

196. I will miss you.

 

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:06 PM

200. I'll miss you. I'm pretty much addicted

to DU after 13 years, but I'm doing less reading here. It's too damn depressing.

I'll vote for whomever is the nominee because that person will likely be the lesser of two evils in the general election. But I'm pained by the nature of our party.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:07 PM

201. Good luck Erich. I imagine they'll be many joining you in the near future.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:07 PM

202. Best wishes to you, dear.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:08 PM

204. Hope to see you at JPR!

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:19 PM

210. Try out

caucus99percent.com
No party affiliation. Progressive

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:24 PM

211. The trolls win! Good luck on a new site until the trolls win enough here and go there instead. eom

One can have democracy or disparity of wealth, but not both.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:29 PM

212. Cya

 

JPR is boring as hell but if you prefer it...

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:30 PM

213. Hey, Erich... You know the irony here sometimes slaps me right in the friggin face...

I hope you and I agree about this website having held a lot of good posts. You are included in my threads. I have had a growing list of what I think are pretty brain dead people on "ignore" for some time now. I really don't miss them. I also don't agree when a person is advised NOT to mention certain subjects here, as was done when I talked about the movie, "Zeitgeist". Thanks, Skinner.

But, getting back to your decision, aren't there similar feelings existing in the majority of people feeling after being told that Bernie Sanders supporters are not real Democrats? If that label isn't anti-democratic, then we are be living in an alternative timeline. The other timeline contains reason and a majority of reason. So, why should your feelings about this and what we point out here we be locked? We are stating the obvious here.

Who are the real Democrats anymore by name? The fucking party's being raped and pillaged, but it calls itself the Democratic party. Look what the fascists are trying to do. On top of that, the excuse makers here are the real posers. I'm pretty sure that I'm right about that.

If everyone weighed in as you have, the list would drop off precipitously. Now, this presents an interesting phenomona. Either DU returns, or it turns INTO DU-4, the parallel universe.

I am not grave dancing yet. I'm pointing out the posers as I see them. Meanwhile, I have an election GOTV this weekend. Let's not leave yet.

Let's let the fascists show who they are and face us.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:48 PM

220. Oh good grief! What ever!

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:59 PM

222. I don't know why this is in the Lounge, but as long as it is,

 

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:03 PM

225. Take it easy.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:08 PM

228. I'll miss you. Be well, and do good things, and enjoy life.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:09 PM

229. I want to thank all the hillarians who were kind enough to volunteer to be added to my ignore list!

I appreciate your bravery! I'd say you'll be missed... but you really wont!

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:21 PM

235. voter suppression as long as it works in their favour,

That was like the frosting on the cake wasn't it?

I never saw such glee.

I am sorry you are leaving, but I think you represent a large percentage of Americans who are just sick with the slow slide to the right and the continuing warmongering.

How many more will it take before the democratic party realizes what they are losing?

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:39 PM

239. Peace my friend.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:49 PM

241. I'm sure glad most Bernie Sanders followers are not so selfishly entitled....

I mean, let me see if I've got this right. Because Bernie probably won't be the presidential candidate, you've had it with the Democratic party and you'll be not only leaving in protest, but not voting democrat in the presidential election.

Hm. You know, it's funny, but when I think of people who've had it, who have suffered enough to call it quits, I usually tend to think of black folk in recent years. The Republican party put justices on the supreme court who negated the law that allowed Blacks to vote unhampered. This permitted states to create bogus laws to keep minorities and the elderly from voting--all in hopes of restoring the "white supremacist" status quo. Yet there are blacks who will be taking off time from work that they can't afford, going through all kinds of hoops to get the right paperwork, and waiting hours in line just so that they can cast their vote for a Democratic president. That vote you so want to throw away. They'll go through all that because they know that the restored Supreme court could either uphold or end these repressive laws.

And then there's women. The Republican party put justices on the supreme court that undermined the right to an abortion, so that Republican-run states could enact bogus laws that put clinics out of business and made abortions difficult if not impossible to get. Contraceptives, too. Some states have laws that can put women who have abortions in jail. There are women who are now reduced to using hangers and poisons and anything else they can find to perform home abortions. What hope do they have if everyone who supports Sanders thinks as you do, and refuses to put a Democrat in the White House?

And then there is the LBGT community. Republicans put justices on the court that allowed big business to pour money into our elections. Thus gerrymandering them so that we have states with all Republican legislators. Of late, these have been creating anti-LBGT laws. Laws that make sure a woman whose driver's license says she was born male can't use a woman's restroom, can get legally thrown out of a hotel, a restaurant, or, if a teenager, a school. I think these very brave men and women will be in line to vote for a democratic president so that, when the supreme court finally gets its new justices, it won't allow these injustices to continue.

My point is this: don't tell ME why you won't be voting democrat this November. Or explain to ME why you'd rather risk putting a Republican in the White House than cast a vote for Hillary. Explain it to those who are having their voting rights taken away, their right to make their own health and family planning decisions taken away, and to those having their very citizenship taken away. I think that all these groups understand very well what will happen to them if a Republican wins the white house. And I think that even if the democrats are not as left as they'd (as we all) might wish, these groups know what real suffering can come to them, and to all of us, if the Republicans retain control of the Supreme Court.

One vote there can make all the difference. I think you should consider what a difference your vote could make, as well.



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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 12:24 AM

258. Hey gardening friend....

the key - happiness is important - find your energy being where it feels best, doing what you love most.

That's what I've been doing and will continue to do. Keep in touch - you know how to find me....

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 12:38 AM

260. i get it, and probably getting there myself

thanks for all the great posts.

hope to see you at jpr

peace,

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 12:48 AM

262. Please come back...

 

...after Shillary's perp walk and Bernie's victory speech in Philadelphia!

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 12:49 AM

263. Sorry to see you go, Erich

Perhaps we'll meet again someday soon on the barricades.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 01:29 AM

270. Well, that sucks.

 

But I can understand your sentiment. This place has long outlived its usefulness.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 02:08 AM

274. Another drinking thread I missed.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 02:21 AM

277. Hey, you're still listed as active!

And Skinner hasn't called it! What's going on? We Sanders' supporters need some action here!

Oh well, maybe he'll get to it this weekend...

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 02:32 AM

278. The public hasn't had enough of being ruled by the rich.

 

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 03:10 AM

280. I will never understand the way some folks flounce as they leave message boards.

I can understand not wanting to be in a place you don't like. I just can't understand doing a whole song and dance routine on the way out.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 03:35 AM

285. Colorado Dems just kicked 3 Clinton superdelegates out of the state party

Why not work for more of that instead of leaving? (Although I get why you need to be away from DU))

http://blogs.denverpost.com/thespot/2016/04/19/bernie-sanders-campaign-dnc-colorado/125654/#more-125654

Bernie Sanders supporters won Colorado’s three seats on the Democratic National Committee, ousting longtime party leaders and Hillary Clinton loyalists.

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Response to eridani (Reply #285)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 08:25 AM

302. This bit of news warms my heart. There's a mighty storm coming. /

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 03:35 AM

286. If you have two thirds of the site on ignore....

...I don't think the problem is with DU or the party.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 03:42 AM

287. I disagree with you about the party, there's a good article here

by Matt Yglesias that you should read.

http://www.vox.com/2016/4/20/11466376/bernie-sanders-future-democrats

The party (and the country) continues to get more liberal (yes, it's true). Things like gay marriage, legalization of marijuana, raising the cap on SS, etc, insurance reform, have been accomplished, or are on the table. Almost unthinkable 15 or 20 years ago.

Politics is a long term process, change is slow and progress is usually incremental. Even if Bernie doesn't win, he's changed the conversation. Young people are energized. The information age has changed everything, and the party is more responsive and more accounatble than ever before. We have a slew of progressives in Congress, and a crop of candidates for the next election that we can rally around (Russ Feingold, Donna Edwards, Zephyr Teachout, Alan Grayson, and more).

You've picked a terrible time to leave, so I hope this is just a vacation. Take it easy for a while, then please come back. We need fighters on this team.

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Response to PBass (Reply #287)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 07:29 AM

298. Thank you for this.

 

Sometimes it is hard to see the real results through the rhetoric.

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Response to PBass (Reply #287)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 08:55 AM

306. See—but that's the problem

Because HRC and the majority of leaders in our party have been either against or late to the table on everything you list.

Here's her record:
She was inexcusably late for gay marriage.
Was against legalized marijuana until a few months ago. (Oh wait—she's for "medical" marijuana, which is always a safe thing to say.)
Wants to tweak SS but not by raising the cap—until now and then only sometimes.
What the heck does she ever say about insurance reform? Guess you mean the ACA even though the insurance companies wrote that bill.
She even says waffly things about "choice" after 7 months—so it is between a woman and her doctor except…..
She was not a "champion" of 15 an hour until a few weeks ago.

Until recently she's supported the TPP and Fracking.

The country/us people are to the left of HRC so I'm hard pressed to lay that liberalism at the feet of the current Democratic Party which is choosing her as their leader.

Do you know that a recent study finds that 70 to 90% of white people under age thirty in this country support Bernie?
And that 40% of black people under thirty support him?
These young people are why the country is moving liberal—not because of the Democrats.

Agree with you about Russ and Elizabeth and Zephyr—but they are outliers in a party that's become cored out. The party itself has not at all become more liberal. Since the Clinton formation of the DLC it's become ever more rightward and Wall Street obeisant.




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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 03:44 AM

288. Thanks for everything, I hope you'll mention where you go if you post elsewhere.

I don't use ignore, so this post has been interesting and informative.

I started a Democrat, then registered Peace and Freedom, then Green and back to Dem. when Gore ran for President (and won the vote.) I have a friend who says "Don't vote, it only encourages them." But I always have voted, knowing less than half those eligible do, and then there is the "Priority Software" in the vote counting machines. Like a calculator software wouldn't work...

But hey, have some fun where ever you go.

(Maybe it will not be locked.)

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 05:04 AM

290. Take care, Erich. nt

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:03 AM

291. I'm done, too.

Not that it matters, but this is most likely my last post here too.

I cannot support Hillary Rodham Clinton for the Presidency of the United States, and I will not. Ever.

I only hope that Bernie's candidacy and advocacy -- and those who have been inspired by him -- will bring the party back to its true roots one day.

Here's to progressives -- -- there are still a few of us left.


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Response to AngryOldDem (Reply #291)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:18 AM

292. Here's to us, AOD...

We're all angry (but eternally young)...

PM me if you don't know about JPR

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 07:18 AM

295. Bye !

Have fun with your "revolution"

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 07:25 AM

296. I always found cross-dragging the most annoying

part of the DU collective. One of the reasons I rarely come here anymore.

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Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #296)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 08:26 AM

304. We'll be seeing a lot of people

 

dragging their crosses and falling on their own swords over the next few weeks. They'll consider themselves martyrs and it will be called a purge. It will all be DU's and/or the party's fault in their minds, but in reality they're sore losers who invested way too much into an underdog candidate.

I'm not much of a Clinton fan, and I feel for most of the Sanders people, but we see this crap every four years, and it's ugly. I've never understood the need to make such a huge display of one's disappointment.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 07:26 AM

297. Best of wishes to you mate.

 

It has been a rough primary season to say the least.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 08:36 AM

305. Can't blame you

 

If I make it that long, I'll stick around until the convention, tops.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 08:59 AM

307. Damn!

Could not have been said better.

Best of luck always, take care Erich.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 09:05 AM

309. Sorry to see you go, Erich. Most of us here still support Democratic values.

Please consider a break and then coming back? Otherwise, perhaps we will see you at JPR.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 09:54 AM

315. Not liking the "No We Can't" modern day agenda.

Couple that win endless war and I can't fathom staying either.

I'm not too optimistic the party can be brought back to the party we decades old dems know. "Hope" was one thing but to start off, run, and win on "No We Can't" is just maddening.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Original post)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 10:25 AM

317. Sad state of affa