Legal question...not looking for absolute free advice, but wondering if I should...

[Xolodno]

...get ready to shell out the cash.

So, my siblings and I own a family vacation home. One of those siblings has "expressed" interest into moving into the area where said vacation home is and work there. Long story short, the rest of us have our doubts and think this sibling will move into the place we all have joint tenancy with the "caveat" that its only temporary. And yes, pigs can fly.

And quite honestly, if that happened, we probably wouldn't mind so long as this sibling paid the bills, maintained the property, etc. while allow us to use it.

...and that's where the problems start. I or rather we, don't have much faith it that. Reason being, I helped her get a better paying job, she lives rent free in one of the rooms of a family member...and yet just got served for not paying a sizable debt. And this is where the other shoe drops, her Fiance...or Spouse as some of us suspect, would also be habitating there. Let's just say, he isn't welcome in a lot of places around us.

We're all pretty resigned to the fact we can't bar her from living there. But we are also aware of her deadbeat "spouse" who can't hold a job, will also move in, and we don't want that. Given he will essentially try to take over the place and even attempt to bar us via intimidation from using it.

So I'm wondering;

Can we issue a restraining order on the property?

Call the police when he refuses us entry?

In other words, what are our options. Would really like to head this one off at the pass.

[MLAA]

1. I am not a lawyer....

But I would get with other siblings and offer to buy her out of the vacation home...suggesting as she gets on her feet with new job she could probably use the cash. 😬 If that won't fly, and you are as concerned as you sound, I would try to rent it out immediately for 6 months to make it absolutely unavailable.

[Laffy Kat]

4. This is not legal either, although I have advice.

Whatever you guys do, make sure you ALL stay on the same page because this is the type of thing that splinters families apart. If one of you caves, well... you know. Good luck.

[Xolodno]

7. Buy out is not possible...

I'm the only one with significant enough income...in other words, the only one who went to college. Another sibling has figured it out and will graduate in a couple of years, but until then...

Plus, I could offer a premium to market value...lets just go there, I could offer double or triple. She'll refuse. In a weird sort of way, she recognizes she's horrible with her finances and allows her "Fiance" or "Spouse"..fuck, who knows, common law makes them married anyway.... to leech off of her. So she looks at the place as her "refuge" of the inevitable...while not recognizing it. He doesn't beat her, but he does, financially abuse her. And I know if I get involved, it will only entrench the situation. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

As for renting it out, don't get me started, I suggested to rent it out for 3 to 4 weeks during the summer during the height of tourist season when we don't occupy it. Explaining, one it would pay the property taxes, two, pay for the bi-annual propane fill up and three, possibly fund upgrades. Nope, they decided to go against the advice of their economist brother, because, it came from their economist brother. Sucks being the ONLY family member who disregarded everyone's dark age advice, of "learning a trade" and going to one of those Universities that "take you away from God".

Yeah I know, the family dynamics are horrible, but some of the siblings are waking up....only took them the latter side of a decade at least.

[MLAA]

15. Family can really test you 😀

At least, hopefully they aren't Trump fans like my brother.

[Xolodno]

18. Have to chuckle a bit...

...for a time, I was the socialist brother who should not be named.

...but since my disabled mom is on government aid, my sister is being paid by the state to take care of her, my brother is going to college on the government dime...the other two don't say jack.

But yeah, family....

[MLAA]

22. I'll hear that chuckle and raise you one

Now the only thing I have in common with my evangelical family is we all vote against our own wallets. I vote Democratic and they all vote republican. My brother's kids all got Pell grants and I pitched in way more than he did for their education. He has been married 3 times (I guess marriage isn't all that sacred unless you are talking to LGBTQ) and is pro-life except when it comes to capital punishment (apparently that's different).

[Xipe Totec]

2. Instead of going hostile, write a letter of understanding

All of the things you have agreed to verbally, write them down, have them signed and notarized.

If the sibling that's going to occupy the property said it's going to be temporary, then write that down and have he/she sign that understanding. Specify a maximum duration.

If the sibling that's going to occupy the property will be responsible for maintaining the property during that time, then write that down and get a signature.

Treat this as a contract. If your sibling refuses to sign the agreement, then you have a cause for concern and a reason to deny access.

[ATL Ebony]

29. Agree, I have a similar situation, and to say it could be messy is an understatement.

I pay the taxes but everybody has different opinions of how the property should be used. As stated, get some ground rules in place and set out in a written agreement. You'll save yourself tons of headache.

[msongs]

3. first thing monday morning see a real estate lawyer. dont delay. get it in writing nt

[question everything]

12. Agree. And set all these maybes and howevers in writing

but consult you other siblings first..

It will be money worth spending.

(Not a lawyer, just common sense)

[elleng]

5. Wait until some request re: living in the place is made,

and then get standard rental agreement; at that time, a real estate attorney would be useful.

[Xolodno]

11. Thought about that...

...but how do you require a rental agreement on an owner? But yes, that's where I have to get a real estate attorney.

[elleng]

13. That's why an attorney will be needed, to address the various ownership issues.

as another lawyer suggested, 'partition' might be appropriate.

[safeinOhio]

25. #1 rule of Real Estate

#1. Always hire an attorney.

[unblock]

6. Not a lawyer, but

My understanding is you can't get a restraining order without reasonable basis, and merely being a "deadbeat 'spouse' who can't hold a job" doesn't even come close. If he's an invited guest of a joint owner I don't think you can legally bar him unless and until he causes legal problems such as damaging property, threatening violence, or bringing illegal drugs onto the premises.

A lawyer is likely to tell you not to become a joint owner with people you don't trust, though that's not much help for the present circumstance.

Maybe best you can do is actively monitor the property and jump on it as soon as there is evidence of damages or illegal activity.

[TomSlick]

8. I am a lawyer - which makes me naturally expect the worst of people.

I wouldn't go ballistic straight away but when the worst happens I think you're looking at a partition suit. Sometime before it all goes south, you need to talk to a lawyer.

[Xolodno]

14. I'm in the insurance industry...so I'm right there with you...hence why I'm posting this...

Probably for therapy for the fact I KNOW what I have to do.

The awful part of this...and the good part, I have access to good lawyers. Walter Lack helped to get my grandfather and by preponderance, his sons...which included my father out of a nasty lawsuit in the family business...when he didn't have to, but because he happened to be a friend of our accountant and went to college with him...hell, our accountant didn't even charge us most of the time, he told me he was just happy to help honest, although naive, people who were true to there word. But lawyers, still have billable hours and even at a hefty discount, are costly.

I guess I could walk down a few floors and hit legal....but they are liability, property & casualty lawyers...not real estate/family matters.

This sucks. In the end I'm going to do the "I told you so", but its going to cost me...when this sibling just used common sense...ugh...

[bench scientist]

21. Just like to echo what was said above. The clean way out is a partition suit.

All siblings/owners would have to agree to a suit.
When people show you who they are believe them. This "spouse" appears to be train wreck and not very good at respecting boundaries of personal property or personal autonomy. You've already answered your own question.
Good luck hope it works out.

[Xolodno]

23. Yeah, your right.

I have answered my own question....in multiple posts.

It's hard, I'm the oldest in the family, she's the youngest...we always had a special relationship. When I was getting ready to propose to my wife of 19 years soon, she was the first to know I was going to do it. Some of my other siblings are real assholes...but I have to agree with them. And despite the fact I know, they won't do shit in most cases, this situation affects everyone. And if I don't do anything, I own a cabin in the woods I could never visit....which used to belong to my father.

I came here for a desperate attempt for a miracle, knowing there would not be one. I'm going to have stiff drink and cigar.

[bench scientist]

24. I understand

I'm the oldest as well and have a special bond with my younger brother and he's caused problems. Listen to your gut and decide where YOUR boundaries lie.
Take care and I sincerely hope things work out.
bench

[lunasun]

9. Why don't you all just say no it's a mutual vacation home . For vacations . Nobody moves in to stay

longer than a vacation period . Not the intended use.
If she is not pitching in with the utility bills at present, have the water turned off temporarily to make it unappealing to stay there for anyone for awhile until she becomes a resident somewhere else in town. Ask -How are they going to that with bad credit and no jobs?. Tell them get real you folks know it's not temporary

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

10. Whatever you decide, get it in writing and signed by everybody.

You might have to get the property partitioned at some point.

[onecaliberal]

16. It's obvious she's going to move in, why else would she move there? She knows the house is there.

Do the rest of your siblings really not see that? She's being pretty transparent without coming out and saying.

[Xolodno]

19. Well, yeah we know that.

Hence why I'm looking into legal options,..they depend on the "educated brother" when its needed...yes, there was sarcasm in that statement...just not sure of the direction I should go. The rest of my siblings are mostly all talk and no action. Most of the time, I leave it to their detriment...but in this case, it affects me. I've contacted lawyers before and have been told that this isn't their area of expertise and have got the run around. I know enough that I need either a Lawyer in Real Estate, Family or a combination of both.

[onecaliberal]

31. I wish you a ton of luck. I would get on that attorney sooner rather than later.

My husband is the "educated" one of his siblings as well. They only call when they want something from him. He had a stroke in November so they cannot take advantage of him. Now they have to go through me.

[avebury]

17. Whose name is on the utility bills?

If the utility bills are all in your name then I would absolutely recommend that you close out the accounts. This sounds like a train wreck waiting to happen and you don't want this one sibling to end up dragging your credit history down. If she wants to move in then let her set up her own utiltities. Or if she talks one of other siblings into doing that, that will be their headache and not yours.

Definitley talk to a lawyer to find out what options are available.

All the other siblings should be in agreement before she is allowed to move into the house. All your siblings need to understand that, once she moves in with her finance, it will be hell on earth to get her out of it if she does not want to leave. If anybody else wants to use the house they need to understand that the fiance that no one likes will be part of the package going forward.

Cut off the utilities and if she can't get them established in her own name then she won't last long. Tough love!

The more that I think about it, it might cost you less in the long run to just deed your share over to the rest of your sibilings and be done with it. As nice as it would be to have a vacation home, this situation might not be worth it in the long run. It shouldn't cost that much to have a lawyer draw up a quick claim deed to get your name off of the property and over to your siblings.

You didn't say whether or not there was a joint checking account, accessible by all, to pay the bills on the house. If so, you sister might raid the funds if she needed money.

[Xolodno]

20. Well...

The property taxes come in all our names. But its my check the county sees.

The electric goes to my other sister which she pays.

The propane, no one person, its pretty random on who pays it, I'm not involved since I pay the highest cost already.

Water, it goes to all are names, but, its a small bill and its picked up at random.

We have a trust, but,...and this is where I bang my head, since it was paid off, our father put the house in all our names in a joint tenancy. I know I could easily sever my share via a trust...despite the fact we have no chance at children of our own.

Public notice...now that's interesting. I could use that.

Cut the utilities sounds interesting, but I know the propane and water people will be happy just to have some one paying.

But I'm still wondering what are my options on her "Fiance".


The deadbeat was once over for Thanksgiving, he got drunk and nearly tipped the dining room table into the china cabinet my wife inherited, a sentimental piece. And assaulted my brother, who got a black eye. I called the police on him..but my sister calmed him down and left before they got here and my brother refused to press charges....stupid. Always had wonderful Thanksgiving dinners, politics were never discussed, it was all about family.....he obviously fucked that up. So much so, we all had separate dinners. I might try it again this year, minus him.

[safeinOhio]

26. Lots of family vacations, every week or week end.

Don't forget to bring friends.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

27. You are absolutely going to need to consult a lawyer.

From what I've read here nothing is really in writing, other than you all seem to own this place equally.

Clearly things need to be defined, such as how long any of you can stay there, although absent an agreement already in place, there is probably not way to evict her and her spouse at any point. If they move in and refuse to move out you will have limited choices. One could be to file suit against them because their continued occupancy is preventing any of the other siblings from enjoyment of the property. The other, somewhat more drastic, is to demand your monetary share of the property, forcing a sale in none of them can individually or collectively come up with the money to buy you out. That would probably result in a huge breach between you and your siblings.

I am likewise not an attorney, but given that this place has been owned by you for some time without anything having been put in writing about how long any of you can stay there, you may be screwed.

But your questions about restraining orders or calling the police will absolutely need to be addressed by an attorney.

[Croney]

28. You can't just dismiss the asshole partner.

He's going to have a major role if he's allowed to move in. He will try to take control of the house and it won't be easy to stop him.

My sister's husband is a similar jerk, and when my mother dies, I want no part of any joint effort to keep her house in the family. My siblings can buy me out, or I'll force a sale. It's lunacy to enter willingly into a financial agreement with a scoundrel. You may set rules for your sister, but the partner doesn't respect your family's history and will take whatever he can.

[Orrex]

30. Nuke the site from orbit.

It's the only way to be sure.

[TexasBushwhacker]

32. How many siblings?

I figure if there are 4 siblings, each would have the right to stay there 3 months max. Has she been paying her share of the expenses associated with the property, ie her portion of the property taxes and bills? If she hasn't been, while living rent free, don't expect her to pay now.

[Xolodno]

34. Total of five, left one out...

..but yeah, don't expect her to pay. Much less maintain. Given how vindictive her asshole "spouse" is, I will use legal remedies to inform her that if there is damage to the place during a forced sale, they will be held accountable with charges pressed and lawsuits to follow. Even look into the legality on holding her share to pay for damages. Should get their attention.

[Xolodno]

33. Just a quick thank you to all.

Think its pretty obvious on what has to be done. Plus, got some good ideas. I don't like being an asshole, but, when you have to deal with an asshole, guess I don't have much of choice. The place was intended always to be a vacation place for the family to enjoy. But if one siblings bad decisions threatens that and prevents that intention, what good is it? We'll no doubt do everything legally possible to make it uncomfortable for them, but if that fails, then bite the bullet and force a sale. Who knows, the rest of the siblings and myself could be the new buyers...minus one and a deadbeat.

[lindysalsagal]

35. Insist on annual taxes/expenses paid 1 year ahead by everyone, and a booking calendar.

Put the $$ in escrow. She won't be able to pay, so will be left out that year.

Or, walk away, and let it all go to hell.

[Xolodno]

36. I so love your cat gif....kind've how I feel.

I can insist that, but, given the limited income of my siblings, I know where that will go.

First, I'll try and get the terms on paper and notarized...but I have a feeling one will not sign, which will demonstrate to all of us her intention.

I won't walk away, but as others have suggested, shit hits the fan, force a sale. Pretty sure the rest will follow through with me and on the back end, buy the property back on the sneak.

But if they get indecisive, I'll force it. No point in owning a cabin in the woods if you can't use it. And if you can, feel like there is a weight on you for using it.

[Fla Dem]

37. 5 siblings jointly owned. Each gets 73 days of usage a year.

That's 2.4 months. Once they've used up their days, they're out.

[Major Nikon]

38. Sounds like it's time to write a set of by-laws

Rules keep friends and family members civil under joint ventures.

Write a set of rules that satisfy all concerns or at least form the best compromise. If I were to write a set of rules for such an arrangement it might look something like...

1) All must reserve home. All members can only have X reservations on the books at any one time.

2) Only can occupy home for Y number of days.

3) Members can apply for an extension for an additional Z number of days provided no conflict with another reservation or no other member vetoes the request.

You can specify all sorts of other things like condition the property must be left, penalties like suspension of reservation privileges if rules are broken, and method used to change by-laws.

Get everyone to sign on to the initial set, then majority is required to make changes. Might not be a bad idea to have a lawyer write it up or at least review it. Keep a copy of any paid legal opinions. That way you have some sort of basis to evict someone if it comes to that.