Socialist Progressives
Related: About this forumThoughts on power, wealth and information
As I watch the unfolding of current events, particularly inspired by OWS & the general open-source movement on the Web, I'm coming to see that the distribution of power is more fundamental than the distribution of wealth.
The problem with all strongly-hierarchical governing bodies is that they tend to concentrate power on the top at the expense of everyone else. The maldistribution of wealth is merely the grease that lubricates the gears of the oligarchy--ANY oligarchy, whether nominally royalist, socialist or capitalist.
Furthermore, I see more clearly every day how the distribution of power is dependent on the distribution of information. Oligarchies don't do well without their secrecy. That is why everyone is in such a frenzy to punish Manning & why Anonymous is such a threat.
My goals for society amount to seeing that every person can get what they need to be free from want, and beyond that, to live up to their full potentials as human beings worthy of being trusted to mostly govern themselves.
I don't think any of the traditional systems of government have shown any great capacity for delivering these basics. Not capitalism, not feudalism, and not socialism as it has been enacted in practice. This is a time of great peril, but also of great opportunity for change and experimentation.
Although I fundamentally disagree with the reductionist/determinist philosophy endorsed by Skinner in Walden II, there is one idea in the book that I think is worth salvaging--or, more accurately, enshrining. That is the idea of the experimental society. Given a goal, you keep trying things and tinkering with them until they work to satisfy the goal. If, for example, you have an inefficient or ineffective system of welfare, you solve the problems by experimenting with the system until it does what you want. You don't throw your hands into the air and give up on the original goal.
I don't too much care whether the economy is mixed, strictly co-operative, or whatever, as long as it serves the goals I outlined. The key is simply to value every person, to seek the welfare of all, and to take into consideration the needs of those who cannot effectively speak for themselves, while maintaining a sustainable relationship with the rest of the planet. Is that too much to ask?
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)will never be accomplished in the confines of a capitalist ruled government. To do what you so eloquently envision will take a "socialist" distributionist attitude which is the polar antithesis to the "individualist" and acquisitivist nature of capitalism.
A basic tenet of Marxism is the intertwining of power in an economic, political (government), and social matrix. You won't get your last paragraph under a capitalist system. They are WAY too opposite in goals and methods.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Well, right now the distribution of power is parallel with the distribution of wealth. And the wealthy and powerful control the flow of information.
I think socialism as it has been enacted in practice has given it a good go, as far as meeting people's basic needs for living. If these societies hadn't had the violence of capitalist/imperialist interference in their nations, perhaps things might have gone differently as far as their long-term survival as nations.
I agree with this totally:
Although I fundamentally disagree with the reductionist/determinist philosophy endorsed by Skinner in Walden II, there is one idea in the book that I think is worth salvaging--or, more accurately, enshrining. That is the idea of the experimental society. Given a goal, you keep trying things and tinkering with them until they work to satisfy the goal. If, for example, you have an inefficient or ineffective system of welfare, you solve the problems by experimenting with the system until it does what you want. You don't throw your hands into the air and give up on the original goal.
But that brings up the question of who "you" is in that. If we're talking about a non-hierarchical society, what does that look like? Is the non-hierarchical society a goal that can be achieved after a more equitable distribution of resources? (I don't have an answer, I'm throwing the questions out to the floor. I have long believed that drafting a "blueprint" before accepting the idea of a change in society is not necessary for working to rearrange society in a more humane and equitable manner.)
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)would be one that keeps reinventing itself.
How would OWS go about running the NYC subways & sewers?
That is not a rhetorical question or a reductio. I think they would find ways to do that kind of thing, and would be very interested to see what they come up with.
I particularly think this point is well-taken:
But somehow, I can't imagine the state withering in any hierarchical system; power becomes an end in itself, regardless of the nominal ideology behind it.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)That's why socialism is considered a stage of development, but not the end product. It's meant to preserve peoples and resources against other hostile capitalist states.
But yes, since it develops out of the decay of the capitalist state, there are still a lot of lopsided areas of development, and that need to "have" power is probably one of them. Attempts to mitigate it by making most areas of the political arena public by various collective structures are one way historically this has been addressed. Writers are still doing analysis on a few states to describe why this failed or succeeded in different places.
It's definitely a work in progress, because the consciousness of humanity that we must intervene in our historical process to save humanity is still so new. Heck, in the US we're still fighting a large faction who think that Jesus was a capitalist and that God wants poor people to receive their reward in heaven.
I love the idea of people-powered systems and OWS has tons of potential. That potential can also be undermined by the existence of the remaining system of capitalism. It has to be dismantled to get the full potential of people "on-line". Otherwise it's like you have this great computer, but it has a trojan that keeps attacking everything. You might try to work around it for awhile, but eventually it is going to do what it was designed to do. Eat everything useful.