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white_wolf

(6,238 posts)
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 12:41 AM Feb 2012

Capitalist morality.

Every time I argue with Libertarians, they seem to avoid the more economic arguments of their neo-con counterparts and fall back on moral arguments. Such as "you have no right to my property." Of course, they never seem to be able to prove where property rights come from. Aside from that, am I the only who finds the moral defense to be a poor basis for economics/politics? I'm sure monarchs believed it was immoral when they were dethroned, what makes the moral arguments of the capitalist any better than the moral arguments of the nobles the overthrew? It just seems strange to me that they their great defense is morality, when morality is such a subjective thing. Has anyone else encountered the "moral defense" of capitalism before?

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rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
1. Property rights makes for a great debate. Monarchs believe that all the property belongs
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 12:45 AM
Feb 2012

to them. If you steal property from an indigent and then sell it, who is the real owner? Beside, eminent domain means the government owns all property and lets others use it at their whim. Speaking of land property.

 

saras

(6,670 posts)
3. "Give it back to the Indians or shut your fucking mouth" is the best answer
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 03:17 AM
Feb 2012

Now where's their "moral defense"?

"Property rights" arguments always come down to "I took it, I'm bigger than you, and you can't make me give it back." No more, no less.

HowHeThinks

(92 posts)
4. Definitely an oxymoron.
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 04:25 AM
Feb 2012

Capitalsim and morality are mutually exclusive. That's been painfully obvious all through the savings and loan bail outs, the wall street bail outs, the mortgage fiasco etc. etc.
Capitalism isn't to blame, it's the unbridled greedy capitalists that have destroyed the economy that are to blame.

 

DCKit

(18,541 posts)
5. Without rules and laws, checks and balances, regulation and good people...
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 05:53 AM
Feb 2012

I'd be hard-pressed to find a moral defense of Democracy.

Think about it.

TBF

(32,029 posts)
9. It depends upon who defines the terms as you said -
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 12:40 PM
Feb 2012

and when you're dealing with capitalists it's gonna be the one with the most money (evidence - our press, our government, etc... ).

I vote for defining our own terms.

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
10. "What the Bible Teaches About Capitalism"
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 02:41 PM
Feb 2012

I almost posted this in the forum two weeks ago when it came out, but I didn't want to make you all yak. But this looks like a good place to share the pain.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203806504577179303330474134.html?mod=googlenews_wsj



Regarding mankind, no theme is more salient in the Bible than the morality of personal responsibility, for it is through this that man cultivates the inner development leading to his own growth, good citizenship and happiness. The entitlement/welfare state is a paradigm that undermines that noble goal.

The Bible's proclamation that "Six days shall ye work" is its recognition that on a day-to-day basis work is the engine that brings about man's inner state of personal responsibility. Work develops the qualities of accountability and urgency, including the need for comity with others as a means for the accomplishment of tasks. With work, he becomes imbued with the knowledge that he is to be productive and that his well-being is not an entitlement. And work keeps him away from the idleness that Proverbs warns leads inevitably to actions and attitudes injurious to himself and those around him.

Yet capitalism is not content with people only being laborers and holders of jobs, indistinguishable members of the masses punching in and out of mammoth factories or functioning as service employees in government agencies. Nor is the Bible. Unlike socialism, mired as it is in the static reproduction of things already invented, capitalism is dynamic and energetic. It cheerfully fosters and encourages creativity, unspoken possibilities, and dreams of the individual. Because the Hebrew Bible sees us not simply as "workers" and members of the masses but, rather, as individuals, it heralds that characteristic which endows us with individuality: our creativity.

At the opening bell, Genesis announces: "Man is created in the image of God"—in other words, like Him, with individuality and creative intelligence. Unlike animals, the human being is not only a hunter and gatherer but a creative dreamer with the potential of unlocking all the hidden treasures implanted by God in our universe. The mechanism of capitalism, as manifest through investment and reasoned speculation, helps facilitate our partnership with God by bringing to the surface that which the Almighty embedded in nature for our eventual extraction and activation.



And God said, "Let there be Capitalism"

white_wolf

(6,238 posts)
11. Ugh! As a former Christian who has actually read the Bible this makes my head hurt.
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 08:20 PM
Feb 2012

Where to begin, how about all of the places where Jesus condemns wealth and the worship of money, or the Old Testament's commands for Jubilee which abolished all forms of debt, or all about my this quote from James:

"Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.

2Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.

3Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

4Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.

5Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.

6Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you."

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
12. I was a former Catholic and the article broke my heart too.
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 09:50 PM
Feb 2012

There's a whole cottage industry of right-wingers who write these Capitalist Jesus articles. They really do think that our economic system has been ordained by God, or at least they are cynical enough to dress up their thoughts in psuedo-Biblical covers. http://www.heritage.org/events/2009/05/money-greed-and-god-why-capitalism-is-the-solution-and-not-the-problem



Does capitalism promote greed? Can a person follow Jesus's call to love others and also support capitalism? Was our recent economic crisis caused by flaws inherent to our free market system? Jay Richards presents a new approach to capitalism, revealing how it's fully consistent with the Christian tradition, while also showing why this system is our best bet for renewed economic vigor.

The church is bombarded with two competing messages about money and capitalism. The first message is that wealth is bad and causes much of the world's suffering; the second is that wealth is good and God wants you to prosper and be rich.

Richards exposes these myths and other common misconceptions about capitalism, and reveals the surprising ways that capitalism is, in fact, the best system to respond to the biblical mandates of alleviating poverty and protecting the environment. Money, Greed, and God equips readers to take practical steps in their own lives to conduct business, worship God, and serve others without falling into the "prosperity gospel" trap.



Sometimes you have to dig a little more on libertarian sites to get down to the spiritual idealistic basis there for private property and capital, but it is usually there. If you are rich, God must be happy with you! Yak!

white_wolf

(6,238 posts)
13. I'm a former Catholic as well.
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 10:52 PM
Feb 2012

I think the Church's social view are as reactionary as they come, but their support for labor is one of the reasons I was drawn to it. The "capitalist Jesus" argument sound like pure Calvinism.

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